Glorify thou me with thy own selfe

[Simon]

Recently I came across a scripture in the new testament that left a deep impression on my mind. As I pondered about those ideas, more scriptures kept coming into my mind, and it felt as if the Lord wanted to reveal to me a wonderful truth. Shortly after I felt I had understood that truth, the Lord confirmed my testimony from an outside source, which in this case was a post by Denver Snuffer.

I want to say clearly that I do not teach this as doctrine, but just as a personal view that brought me closer to my saviour, that helped me to get to know him even better.

I will first share my experiene, and then post Denvers comments on that matter.. Feel free to add your knowledge and opinion to it.

The scripture it all started with was in John 17:1-5

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And NOW, O Father, glorify thou me WITH THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The first phrase that stood out to me was "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have finished the work..".

Right before Christ was going to overcome the sins and sicknesses OF THE WORLD, he had glorified the Father by overcoming the sins and sicknesses IN THE WORLD. He had at that point overcome the world. ( John 16:33) Christ glorfied the Father by doing the Fathers will.

The second phrase that stood out to me was "And NOW O Father, glorify THOU ME WITHIN TINE OWN SELF.

I pondered about the possibility that this may actually have been a literal invitation. As I pondered what the reason for this could be, I remembered two other scriptures.


Mormon 9:4

Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness BEFORE HIM, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

Here, Mormon describes the most aweful state of a soul that is in existence. The most miserable and painful situation is not simply to be in hell, but it would rather be to stand in the presence of the Father while having a perfect knowledge of your own guilt


Mosiah 2:38

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to SHRINK from the PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

King Benjamin explained that this memory of our own guilt is like an unquenchable fire, and this experience will make us SHRINK from the PRESENCE OF THE LORD.


This reminded me of Christ talking about his suffering in the garden

D&C 19:21

Which suffering caused myselfe, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit. and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and SHRINK
Nephi explains this situation this way

2 Nephi 9:46

Prepare your souls for that glorious day when justice shall be administered unto the rightous, even the day of judgement, that ye may NOT SHRINK with aweful fear; that ye may not remember your aweful guilt IN PERFECTNESS, and be constrained to exclaim: Holy, holy are thy judgements, O Lord God Almoighty- but I know my guilt, I transgressed thy law, AND MY TRANSGRESSION ARE MINE; and the devil hath obtained me, that I am prey to his aweful misery.

If we trasngress, and remain in our sins, Christs atonement will not work for us, and our sins will remain ours, we will remember them in perfectness, and as Christ, we will shrink before God. Nevertheless, this torment is not only experienced by those at final judgement, Alma described his pain in similar words.

Alma 36:13

Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his hily commandments ( he remembered his guilt perfectly )

After Alma was tormented with the pains of a damned soul, he remembered his fathers teachings about Christ. Andthro Christ released him from that torment ugh his suffering in the garden of gethsemani.

How would Christ be able to save a soul from that aweful situation if he had not experienced it himselfe?

I have come to believe that Christs invitation to the Father, to visit him with his glory, was literal. I believe that when Christ took upon himselfe our sins, he was visited by the Father in all his glory. I believe that this was the bitter cup Christ had to drink, the most painful and horrific emotion anyone can go through. This was hell, and Christ overame hell.

I love my saviour for enduring such an uncomprehandable pain on my behalf. I hope when we stand before the judgementbar of Gof, we will not have to suffer as Christ did, but that we will exclaim with joy in our hearts..

And NOW, O Father, glorify thou me WITH THINE OWN SELF.



Here is what Snuffer says about it.

Snuffer Mosiah 3:7
This verse is the greatest summary of what the Lord would suffer in atoning for man's sins given before His mortality. King Benjamin is given this instruction because God wants all mankind to understand the great sacrifice made by the Lord Omnipotent.

Christ suffered "even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death" as part of the burden He bore. (Mosiah 3: 7.) What was the burden?

First on the angel's list is "temptations." Isaiah would call it "our griefs" and "our sorrows" and "our transgressions" and "our iniquities." (Isa. 53: 4-5.) Alma would call it "afflictions and temptations of every kind." (Alma 7: 11.) Paul explained how He "who knew no sin" was made "to be sin" for our sake. (2 Cor. 5: 21.) In other words, though Christ was not personally responsible for any transgression, He was made accountable for every one of all our transgressions. He was made "to be sin" and to feel the loathsome filthiness of our unworthiness before God.

Mormon had been in the Lord's presence. He knew how painful it was to be before God in our fallen and guilty state. Mormon explained how terrible it is to bring the weight of your own sins into God's holy presence. He describes it as "under a consciousness of your guilt" and "a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws" and "more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would be to dwell with the damned souls in hell." (Mormon 9: 3-4.) He explains that in God's presence "ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God" and it "will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you." (Mormon 9: 5.) Since Mormon had been there, and knew what it was like to behold God's holy presence, he understood the great challenge we all face if we do not repent.

When the prophet Isaiah was brought into God's presence he collapsed in guilt and anguish, proclaiming, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts." (Isa. 6: 5.)

Beholding God brings with it the keenest appreciation of your own unworthiness before Him so it is possible to understand He is a "just and holy Being" in whom there is no darkness.

Christ succumbed to no temptations. Yet He was made to feel the guilt and misery of all mankind's great surrender to sin. Christ explained what that involved when He declared: "repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore--how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I." (D&C 19: 15-17.) Christ, looking back on His atonement, called the pain of it "exquisite" and "hard to bear" from a distance of two millennia.

The scriptures tell us how His suffering was accomplished. As He knelt in prayer, He was visited by a "just and holy being" to borrow Mormon's words. (Luke 22: 43.) There, in the presence of the Father, Christ struggled through all the guilt, sorrow, nakedness, consciousness of guilt, and torment of being sinful, unworthy, unclean, and having ever transgressed the law of God. It was an unquenchable fire of emotion and pain, torment of mind, and recognition of failure before God. He, like all the wicked, "trembled because of pain" and "shrank" away from God in horror at His condition. (D&C 19: 18.)

Abraham was on the mount with the knife in his hand at the sacrifice of Isaac, and God the Father was present at the sacrifice of His Son. Indeed, Christ's sufferings required the Father to be present in order to reconcile man to the Father. It was the presence of the Father that made the suffering possible. Therefore, we know the identity of the unnamed angel in Luke. (Luke 22: 43.) Christ could not have suffered the guilt of all mankind in the presence of a just and holy God, unless during this moment of torment His suffering was before that very Being

[taliesin]

In the past few weeks I have independently learned most of the same things. This idea of Christ inviting the Father to glorify him as drinking the bitter cup adds to my understanding.

[Simon]

In the past few weeks I have independently learned most of the same things. This idea of Christ inviting the Father to glorify him as drinking the bitter cup adds to my understanding.

How did you come to think about it ? Certain scriptures or experiences ?

[AshleyB]

Simon, I have come to these same conclusions though not on my own. Not that any conclusions I reach which are correct are on my own. All truth originates with God and I can't take any credit. What I mean though is a friend really helped open my eyes to this truth. It was after he opened it up to me that I began to see the scriptures in a new way. I beleive these things are true. It makes so many things make sense. What Christ suffered is unfathomable to me. He suffered as much as any being can suffer without being completely obliterated by it. The word crushing comes to mind. That is my opinion. It is my view that the Angel who was present with Christ in the Garden was the Father and without the Father being present there would have been no atonement. It was His very BEING which caused Christ the suffering. Maybe it was even the Father AND the Mother? This idea has given me an even greater appreciation for our Father's role in the atonement as well. Can you imagine purposefully not only allowing your only begotten to suffer for the sins of the world but knowing it was YOUR presence that allowed the suffering to occur? Think of the Father's love for us to take part in and allow such a thing. Don't get me wrong. The suffering was all OUR doing. It was OUR sins that caused the heavy burden. But Father allowed it and took part in it because He loves us THAT much.

I know there are some who say the Father must have gone to the far corner of the Universe to avoid being there when Christ went through that but personally I beleive that is a false idea myself. Just my opinion again. Not only because it was the Father's very presence which made the atonement possibly but because I beleive the idea that the Father would shrink away as His son went through such an ordeal doesn't match up with what I know of His attributes. That being said, I don't know much though and I can't claim to KNOW God yet. There is so much selflessness involved in the atonement though. It is a level of love and selflessness I can't even yet comprehend.

Growing, birthing and rearing children is as close as I can get to it and yet I am still an incredibly selfish human being. Oh, to be truly like the Savior and our Father and Mother in Heaven. I love them. I wish I could love the way they do.

[Simon]

Thank you Ashley for your input.

Abraham, who loved his son so dearly, was filled with pain and aguish when he was about to fulfill God's commandment to kill his son.

God said, "in like manner shall I offer my son as sacrifice".. It is worth to ponder about that phrase "In like manner"... It would have been through Abrahams own hand, that his son got killed. And it was through the Fathers own glory that made his son suffer such anguish.. "In like manner"..

The heavy burden for the Father was less to have his son get killed, it was rather his suffering in the garden of gethemani...

Applying the situation of Abraham to my life, it would not only be a great burden for Isaac to know what he had to go through, but it would also be a great burden for the Father to cause that suffering through his own hands.

That understanding deepins my appreciation and love for the Saviour, as well as for the Father.

[taliesin]

In the past few weeks I have independently learned most of the same things. This idea of Christ inviting the Father to glorify him as drinking the bitter cup adds to my understanding.

How did you come to think about it ? Certain scriptures or experiences ?

Here's the short version -

The scriptures (especially Jacob 4:5) tell us that Abraham sacrificing Isaac was a similitude of God and Christ. So in that case, Abraham ("Father of Many") = God the Father and Isaac = Christ. Genesis 22 describes Abraham and Isaac's experience. Abraham chopped up some wood that he later laid on Isaac. Isaiah chapter 53 says that the Lord would lay our sins on the suffering servant.

- Abraham laying wood on Isaac = The Lord (God the Father) laying sins on Christ; wood = sins

Abraham had two tools he was going to use for the sacrifice; a knife and fire. The symbolism of the knife and the fire came to me when I woke up one morning after pondering for a few days. The knife represented truth or the word of God, which cuts the guilty to the center but is pleasing to the pure in heart. The fire represented the presence of God, which causes horror for people like Alma the Younger before his repentance but is the opposite for the righteous.

- Knife = guilt that cut Christ (this was the cutting of a covenant) and caused him to bleed from every pore

- Fire = Christ in the presence of God while laden with sin and cut with guilt

Alma the Younger, while suffering knife-like guilt, preferred annihilation of his conscious self (something like suicide of the spirit, if that is even possible) over coming into the presence of God. The symbolism of the knife and the fire are combined in the flaming sword that keeps, not blocks, the way to the tree of life. It turns in every direction, which I believe means that it tells you when you are off the path (a negative experience, cutting you with guilt) and it tells you when you are on the path (a positive experience, healing the wounded soul). The knife/sword/truth/word of God cuts and, paradoxically, heals.

You can find the long version here -

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=31061

[Simon]

Awesome, thank you for sharing this. Will love to look deeper into those scriptures..