The Atonement: How Does It Work?

[SpeedRacer]

I have a beautiful new understanding of the Atonement as of today. We accept the Atonement of Christ when we do, as the promise of Christ dictates in D&C 64:10 :

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

We are required not just to forgive but to remember our sins and the sins of others not at all.
D&C 58:42

Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.

Repented means turned totally away from. Otherwise we retain our guilt, as Simon relates in Mosiah 2:38 claim our consequence:

Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to SHRINK from the PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

Our guilt is that which we have for accusing others, demanding justice when we haven’t been just to our neighbor.
Instead, Christ asks us to offer the same mercy to all that he offers to us. Isaiah 1: 18:

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

What could be more "reasonable" than to ask that we act and do for others as Christ has done for us.

What a great first post! I add my witness to yours.

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, what are your thougts on that ??... I believe there is something to it, but it I am still pondering about it.. It's no knowledge to me yet, just a direction in which I am heading
...
We would shrink before the presence of God.. Note, where do we find the word "shrink" again?

I think you should search this out until you feel you have found the end of your idea. There is certainly something there, be it what you thought, or something else.

What if God visited Christ while being loaded with all our sins, appearing to him in full glory ? I think this would be even worse than being in hell. And hell, I assume, is the lowest anyone can get to.

My view of the atonement does allow for this possibility. However, I am still open to considering it. I will plant this idea for a while and see what grows of it.

[Amonhi]

Not simply a sacrifice of a man. No human sacrifice would ever have been enough.. it had to be infinite and eternal. No man can sacrifice his own blood to atone for the sins of another. There can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world..

God himselfe had to atone for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to satisfy the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just, and a merciful God..

How does killing a perfect God magically it "ok" and satisfy the demands of Justice? I would think that the more innocent the sacrifice, the less just it is...

[truth]

How does killing a perfect God magically [make?] it "ok" and satisfy the demands of Justice? I would think that the more innocent the sacrifice, the less just it is...

Christ knew His purpose.
John 18:37

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Because Christ was innocent, His death, if permanent, could never satisfy justice, but in being killed willingly, justice owed Christ the bigger debt. That's why "every one that is of the truth" is ransomed.

John 18:38

38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

As Christ fulfills His purpose as a sinless man, the sinners go free:
John 18:39-40

39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
40 Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.

Now we might say that Barabbas was unrepentant and, therefore, can't be claimed by the Atonement, but we don't know if he repents, and that's the point. That's exactly why we must leave it to God to determine who He will reclaim, once we all let Barabbas go free. We must attempt to see as Christ sees with a higher level of "seeing," a level where sin does not exist in ourselves or our neighbors and leave God, who knows the "sin" of a man, to do the judging.

D&C 6:16

Yea, I tell thee, that thou mayest know that there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart.

Killing a perfect God could never be just, but Christ lives!! The death of His mortal body as we see it with our telestial eyes was not really death at all.

And I apologize if I am horning in on the other conversation or getting absorbed in my own thoughts.

[Simon]

How would it be just to forgive someone that tried to take my life? I believe that justice in our world is not the kind of justice we will experience in Gods world. I believe that someone that stands before God, and knows that someone else suffered innocently for him, will himlselfe suffer great pain alone because of that knowledge.

It may not be fair, but I would love to suffer innocently if it could save one othe soul. Why? Because I love them so much.

[truth]

I think forgiving those who do us harm is what we've promised when we were baptized.
I think loving those who do us harm is what we must do to be a Christ, not because sin is ok, simply because "they know not what they do."
Many people have described feeling an anguish of soul during their BFHG, seeing, as you describe Simon, Christ suffering on their behalf, but my limited understanding is that beyond that, once we've truly come to Him, we are innocent and thus, we begin to do the work of Christ relieving others' suffering, being a light of hope and purity and happiness.

In all this, one thing that should be remembered about the Atonement is that it is a gift that leads to true joy. Should we sorrow when set free? Or can we find joy is leading others to the gate?

*edited to add "once we've truly come to Him"

[Simon]

turth, thank you, I agree with you a 100 % here. I guess the point I wanted to make was just that "justice" is not always what we think it is. For a nonbeliever, to forgive someone who tried to kill him, it is nothing but unjust. But from the Lord's view, it is just.

I believe we only can truely forgive others once we truely love Christ. To me, to love and to forgive, belong together. I can't honestly forgive without posessing the love Christ had for us.

I will share some more of my views in response to one of Amonhis posts.

[Simon]

Not simply a sacrifice of a man. No human sacrifice would ever have been enough.. it had to be infinite and eternal. No man can sacrifice his own blood to atone for the sins of another. There can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world..

God himselfe had to atone for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to satisfy the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just, and a merciful God..

How does killing a perfect God magically it "ok" and satisfy the demands of Justice? I would think that the more innocent the sacrifice, the less just it is...

I will try to explain why I have a different view on this .. But, it is just my view ;)

In and world full of confusion and personal opinion, the Lord has revealed one wonderful truth to me, and that is that I can alway rely on the Bookd of Mormon for understanding truth. What I have written in my post above, is literally what the Book of Mormon teaches, and I believe it.

You are a man of great wisdom and knowledge, more than I posess.. I love truth, so if I err I am sure I will one day learn it better.

To progress, we need to sacrifice. There can be no progression without sacrifices. Through sacrifices we do not only progress, but we also gain power and authority over what we sacrificed. For example, if I smoke, and sacrifice my aditction, I also gain "power" over my adiction.

For Christ to gain power and authority over all of his creation, he had to send below all things, so that he afterwards could rise above all things. The "lowest" thing that Christ ever could have experienced, was to be a innocent, perfect and pure God, that suffered unjustly for the sins of the world. This was the great and last sacrifice, the only sacrifice that would allow Christ to reign his kingdom according to the univeral law. The only sacrifice that could suffice to bring to pass an eternal and infinite atonement. The only way to bring mercy and justice into balance.

Christs invitation to be like him is literal. This tells us much about the sacrifices we may one day have to bring to gain power and authority over our creation, or kingdom. We literall have to take upon us the name of Christ. Then, and only then will we know the new name by which Christ will call us at the last day, only then will we know his voice.

There is no greater sacrifice, no greater love, no greater joy than to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of those whom we love. There is no greater pain, nor suffering that is more aweful than to stand filthy in the presence of that holy being who sacrificed "his all" for me, and I accepted not. This made Christ shrink in the garden of gethsemane, this made him bleed from every pore, this is hell. And Christ overcame just that hell.

[janderich]

Not simply a sacrifice of a man. No human sacrifice would ever have been enough.. it had to be infinite and eternal. No man can sacrifice his own blood to atone for the sins of another. There can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world..

God himselfe had to atone for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to satisfy the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just, and a merciful God..

How does killing a perfect God magically it "ok" and satisfy the demands of Justice? I would think that the more innocent the sacrifice, the less just it is...

Killing God does not satisfy justice. The only thing that satisfies justice is repentance.

And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption. (Alma 34:14)

When we change we are no longer under punishment because the purpose of the punishment is complete. God's justice requires that we suffer when we break eternal law but once we change we are through.

But Christ through his at-one-ment now knows perfectly, according to the flesh, our pain, our sorrows, our happiness. It is because of him that the way is open to change. Otherwise we would be forever lost.

[Amonhi]

Can fallen angels be converted to do good and progress?

Yes, I have seen it and also done it. They realize you are about to cast them out. This gives you some leverage as the are going to leave, but how they will leave and the terms are up for negotiation. You talk with the leader or head devil that the others respect and convert him, then invite him to convert the others. Once they are converted, you ask them if there is anything they would like to do before leaving to give them the time and oppertunity to fix any damage they have done. When they are finished they are ready to go, and they leave. Convert them to follow the dim little light that is inside even themselves. The light of Christ.

Just a question about this, Amonhi? Is there anything written in the scriptures regarding, that these fallen angels can be converted? Or is this just something that you experienced? How did it come about that you felt to talk to the head leader? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions. I just always thought they are to be cast out, at least that's the only pattern I'm aware of. Thanks for any insight you could offer.

There is not anything that I currently know of regarding converting spirits except for those post mortal spirits who lived, died and were not converted.

Someone showed me, and I was amazed at the results. They showed me how to talk to the leader, convert them etc. Then I tried it later and found it to be very effective.

You're not asking too many questions.

Most people think the way you and I were taught, be afraid of them, cast them out like a deadly disease, take no thought for them, etc. They are people too. Love your enemy, do good to those that hate you. They do not have more power than you. You kept your first and second estate. You have progressed much farther than they have. You have through your spirit every ability they do and through your body, much more. Here is what I told someone who PM'd me:

I myself have cast out devils by converting them, (or their leader who converted others who converted others until the entire group was converted), to the light of Christ and they willingly left on pleasant terms, having blessed the person they had been cursing, without a fight, and with the intent to do good, progress, etc

Can fallen angels be converted to do good and progress?

Yes. Unless they have become sons of perdition, and like Cain know exactly what they are doing, then they can. Satan is perdition. In the pre-existence he used the same types of tactics that he encourages terrorists and cult leaders do here. He taught those under him to follow and obey without question. So, a large number of his followers are not 100% sold on the idea. They have their leaders and structure designed to maintain order via the anti-principles of righteousness. (Don't think for your self kind of stuff.) They are often just trying to experience what they missed out on. They believe a number of lies and with the correct information to see through those lies, many of them can start to see and follow the light inside themselves which is the light of Christ which will lead them to love and eventually everything else.

It is interesting when you first point out the light to them, (and for them it is literally light like a pinpoint of light), they are very scared of it. Literally afraid of it. They are actually scared of it at first and you have to walk them through the process of looking at it, adjusting to it, feeling it, etc... And after they accept it and embrace it, ask them how it feels to experience the light and it is like a new thing to them. They react almost giddy.

Even David fell as low as they are and came out again. If they can humble themselves and turn again to God, then even they have access to what is called, "The preparatory Redemption", See Alma 13.

If they have become sons of perdition then they like Perdition (Satan), must be destroyed (lose first estate = spirit body unorganized) before they can again progress and eventually have another shot at being reorganized into a new spirit body and go through the process again. The intelligence that they are has unending time to learn its mistakes and grow beyond them.

Did that answer your question from my point of view? Do you have any other questions that you would like to ask?

Peace,
Amonhi

[Simon]

In and world full of confusion and personal opinion, the Lord has revealed one wonderful truth to me, and that is that I can alway rely on the Bookd of Mormon for understanding truth. What I have written in my post above, is literally what the Book of Mormon teaches, and I believe it.

You are a man of great wisdom and knowledge, more than I posess.. I love truth, so if I err I am sure I will one day learn it better.

To progress, we need to sacrifice. There can be no progression without sacrifices. Through sacrifices we do not only progress, but we also gain power and authority over what we sacrificed. For example, if I smoke, and sacrifice my aditction, I also gain "power" over my adiction.

For Christ to gain power and authority over all of his creation, he had to send below all things, so that he afterwards could rise above all things. The "lowest" thing that Christ ever could have experienced, was to be a innocent, perfect and pure God, that suffered unjustly for the sins of the world. This was the great and last sacrifice, the only sacrifice that would allow Christ to reign his kingdom according to the univeral law. The only sacrifice that could suffice to bring to pass an eternal and infinite atonement. The only way to bring mercy and justice into balance.

Christs invitation to be like him is literal. This tells us much about the sacrifices we may one day have to bring to gain power and authority over our creation, or kingdom. We literall have to take upon us the name of Christ. Then, and only then will we know the new name by which Christ will call us at the last day, only then will we know his voice.

There is no greater sacrifice, no greater love, no greater joy than to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of those whom we love. There is no greater pain, nor suffering that is more aweful than to stand filthy in the presence of that holy being who sacrificed "his all" for me, and I accepted not. This made Christ shrink in the garden of gethsemane, this made him bleed from every pore, this is hell. And Christ overcame just that hell.

Another scripture that came to my mind is found in Isiah

Isa. 53: 11: ... by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

One of the effects of his sacrifice was so that he gained knowledge. First knowldege about how it feels to stand filthy in the presence of the father ( hell ) .. and second to overcome hell through his knowledge. He knows how to get out of the situation, and can show us the way.

The pure in heart shall see God, and only those can endure the fathers presence without feeling this aweful state of guilt. The whole purpose of the atonement is to purify us. And I feel it's worth pondering what it means to be pure. Does it mean that we are perfect, and therefore perfectly accounable even for the least sin an it's consequences without hope of Christs antonemen? I find it noteworthey that we are to be "pure in heart".

To stand spotless before God does not mean we are perfect, it means that we want to be perfect with all our heart. No matter how far we progress in this mortal life, we will never be ablereach a state where we won't need the redeeming blood of the saviour.

The day may come where we will create worlds, where we may have to sacrifice to gain power an authority over our creation. There may be a day we literally take upon us the calling of a Christ.. This is the day where we can't anymore rely upon the atonement of Christ, but thats a long way to go.

[log]

This is my opinion. Jesus first overcame every temptation of the flesh and every worldly lust (here, I think it was because he was possessed of the divine nature, not being subject to the Fall, whereas our natures are corrupt because of the Fall [Ether 3:2]). Jesus was then anointed with the blood and sins of all mankind, and was stripped of the Holy Spirit entirely, suffering eternal death as every sinner must until they are redeemed; he had to overcome the rock of offense and betrayal laid in his own heart thereby, and be reconciled to God, without departing from faith, hope, and charity. By doing these things, he demonstrated to all that those possessed of the divine nature could be trusted at all times and in every circumstance they may be placed, to the furthest possible extremity, without failing to obey the law. In doing this, Christ performed the sacrifice of his spiritual life which was required of him, and which was, for him, his all - it was the one thing he didn't want to do. Then he performed the last sacrifice of his temporal life.

Because he performed this sacrifice, he is permitted, or has power, to intercede for us with the Father, to give us the divine nature, and thereby make us trustworthy to the ultimate extremes so long as we are possessed of it.

The conditions upon which men are made like him are the same: if we will sacrifice our will to God, Christ intercedes for us with the Father, who then sends the Holy Ghost to transform us, that we are given the divine nature (which transformation delivers us from justice), which is faith, hope, and charity (perfection); from thence we are given a sacrifice of our heart - the one thing we don't want to do - and, in the end, I think those who press forward sacrifice their lives as well.

That's a short gloss of what I think.

[Simon]

Sounds good

[FoxMammaWisdom]

I'm curious why the Savior didn't teach this; why, for example, did He cast the Legion out into a herd of swine where they then ran to their death - instead of converting them? I don't remember any accounts of Him converting dark beings to the light. I don't remember any accounts of anyone doing that. Do you know of any?

[SpeedRacer]

I'm curious why the Savior didn't teach this; why, for example, did He cast the Legion out into a herd of swine where they then ran to their death - instead of converting them? I don't remember any accounts of Him converting dark beings to the light. I don't remember any accounts of anyone doing that. Do you know of any?

Jules thanks for this. I re-learned this harsh lesson on Sunday in Sunday School. Teach with questions not with statements. You have a superb example of this right here. You can only lead people to what they need, not force it on them.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

I'm curious why the Savior didn't teach this; why, for example, did He cast the Legion out into a herd of swine where they then ran to their death - instead of converting them? I don't remember any accounts of Him converting dark beings to the light. I don't remember any accounts of anyone doing that. Do you know of any?

Jules thanks for this. I re-learned this harsh lesson on Sunday in Sunday School. Teach with questions not with statements. You have a superb example of this right here. You can only lead people to what they need, not force it on them.

Thanks SR . It looks like my post did not follow the one I intended for it to, so hopefully it was clear I was asking Amonhi about his comments - and he'll see it.

[AnthonyR]

How does killing a perfect God magically it "ok" and satisfy the demands of Justice? I would think that the more innocent the sacrifice, the less just it is...

Amonhi, I am curious... So, what would Christ have done to merit the demands of Justice to enable mercy and grace? Could it be living the opposition in all things? Like living in opposition in another life to live the exact polarized opposite of a Savior and complete the atonement after living the opposition life? Kind of a tongue twister there. I hope my thoughts were correctly put into words here.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

How does killing a perfect God magically it "ok" and satisfy the demands of Justice? I would think that the more innocent the sacrifice, the less just it is...

Amonhi, I am curious... So, what would Christ have done to merit the demands of Justice to enable mercy and grace? Could it be living the opposition in all things? Like living in opposition in another life to live the exact polarized opposite of a Savior and complete the atonement after living the opposition life? Kind of a tongue twister there. I hope my thoughts were correctly put into words here.

Now I know where my missing mild barley drinks went..... :-w

[AnthonyR]

How does killing a perfect God magically it "ok" and satisfy the demands of Justice? I would think that the more innocent the sacrifice, the less just it is...

Amonhi, I am curious... So, what would Christ have done to merit the demands of Justice to enable mercy and grace? Could it be living the opposition in all things? Like living in opposition in another life to live the exact polarized opposite of a Savior and complete the atonement after living the opposition life? Kind of a tongue twister there. I hope my thoughts were correctly put into words here.

Now I know where my missing mild barley drinks went..... :-w

Were those the ones you made? No wonder they tasted like poo.

[dauser]

Sometime in our premortal beginning we wanted a mortal body, it was a step down from what we had but we wanted to start eternal families. We wanted to be like dad, Adam. We wanted to fall and fall we did. We took off and set aside our oneness, priesthoods and memory... to fall, to wake up in this dark and dreary waste. We took on division, separateness, disconnectedness, fear, corruption, ignorance, nakedness, pain, suffering, disappointment...

We took on a state of Adam to get here into mortality...we take on a state of Jesus Christ to reverse the division, separateness, disconnectedness, fear, corruption, ignorance, nakedness, pain, suffering disappointment etc.

A Restoration is needed to restore our former powers, glory and identity.

Adam shows us how to fall and sweat it out, suffer for our own sins... Jesus Christ shows us by example how to undo the fall, suffer for the sins of others, exit mortality, live, regain immortality and eternal life.

The results of an Adamic identity leads to death...The results of a Christ name and identity leads to eternal life.

Identity means everything. Baptism and the Lord's supper is all about identity conversion. (Real Repentance).

Adam loves his spirit children. Adam left his children in a pickle. He has a son, names the baby... Jesus... We Follow the Father into mortality and we follow the Son into life and exaltation. We take his flesh, blood, name, spirit, remember him, obey his mandates...walk on water, raise the dead, open casket, show off our scars, visit other sheep...etc.