The Atonement: How Does It Work?

[log]

Yes, he had agency; he rebelled, and that action was binding.

Mankind, cut off from God as we are, doesn't have agency in mortality without being tempted one way or the other.

[inquirringmind]

Yes, he had agency; he rebelled, and that action was binding.

Mankind, cut off from God as we are, doesn't have agency in mortality without being tempted one way or the other.

So the devil had agency, and could choose to rebel when he was in Heavenly Father's house (without being tempted one way or another?), but mortal man, here on earth, wouldn't have agency, or be able to choose without a devil to tempt him?

Why?

[log]

Yes, he had agency; he rebelled, and that action was binding.

Mankind, cut off from God as we are, doesn't have agency in mortality without being tempted one way or the other.

So the devil had agency, and could choose to rebel when he was in Heavenly Father's house (without being tempted one way or another?), but mortal man, here on earth, wouldn't have agency, or be able to choose without a devil to tempt him?

Why?

Apparently, he was angry, and because of that, he willfully sinned in the presence of God. That's an instant out. He had perfect knowledge and chose to rebel.

You are still making the erroneous assumption that "agency" means "power to choose." It was precisely to refute that error that I wrote the post referred to earlier.

[inquirringmind]

Yes, he had agency; he rebelled, and that action was binding.

Mankind, cut off from God as we are, doesn't have agency in mortality without being tempted one way or the other.

So the devil had agency, and could choose to rebel when he was in Heavenly Father's house (without being tempted one way or another?), but mortal man, here on earth, wouldn't have agency, or be able to choose without a devil to tempt him?

Why?

Apparently, he was angry, and because of that, he willfully sinned in the presence of God. That's an instant out. He had perfect knowledge and chose to rebel.

You are still making the erroneous assumption that "agency" means "power to choose." It was precisely to refute that error that I wrote the post referred to earlier.

But given your understanding of agency, would a devil be necessary to God's plan?

Would God be unable to give man his agency without a devil to tempt him?

[log]

So the devil had agency, and could choose to rebel when he was in Heavenly Father's house (without being tempted one way or another?), but mortal man, here on earth, wouldn't have agency, or be able to choose without a devil to tempt him?

Why?

Apparently, he was angry, and because of that, he willfully sinned in the presence of God. That's an instant out. He had perfect knowledge and chose to rebel.

You are still making the erroneous assumption that "agency" means "power to choose." It was precisely to refute that error that I wrote the post referred to earlier.

But given your understanding of agency, would a devil be necessary to God's plan?

Would God be unable to give man his agency without a devil to tempt him?

Well, a devil is necessary for this particular plan, otherwise there would be nothing for a largely ignorant mortal to be tempted by, and thus sell themselves to. That is agency - that your choice between God and the Devil is binding upon you.

It is my belief that the nature of the proposal put forward guaranteed that someone would willfully reject it.

[lemuel]

Apparently, he was angry, and because of that, he willfully sinned in the presence of God. That's an instant out. He had perfect knowledge and chose to rebel.

You are still making the erroneous assumption that "agency" means "power to choose." It was precisely to refute that error that I wrote the post referred to earlier.

But given your understanding of agency, would a devil be necessary to God's plan?

Would God be unable to give man his agency without a devil to tempt him?

True. The devil isn't that special. If Lucifer didn't rebel, whoever is #2 in his kingdom would've rebelled and been the satan...

Well, a devil is necessary for this particular plan, otherwise there would be nothing for a largely ignorant mortal to be tempted by, and thus sell themselves to. That is agency - that your choice between God and the Devil is binding upon you.

It is my belief that the nature of the proposal put forward guaranteed that someone would willfully reject it.[/quote]

[Simon]

No. In the quote above I was trying to clarify what you were saying and show the error in the concept. Maybe I didn't do a good job? lol. I do not believe in the delayed payment on our part. I believe in the avoiding punishment via proving innocence through repentance. Eventually we cannot prove innocence any more and are subject to the punishment of our sins when we act with knowledge and will...

I read my words, and I see what they are saying. And from my view point, they make perfect sense and are correct. But I also see what tehy say and mean from the viewpoint of the common atonement and from that view point they are flat wrong. You cannot interpret them correctly from the old way of thinking. This is one of the challenges that the Elliaison Group are experiencing. We can't open up the visions of heaven with perfect clarity as was show to us. Our words are so limiting...(shaking my head)

I am afraid that without seeing the whole thing or at least being lead point by point it will lead people astray and cause them to stop relying on Christ. Not the point. You can't jump ahead without hurting yourself...

"Oh no I've said too much, I haven't said enough..." - R.E.M.
:-ss,
Amonhi

Hey Amonhi.. No.. you havent told too much.. I love learning more. The thing is I didn't get it perfectly because of my english... I have to read it again when I have more time to get it right first.. ;)

[Simon]

Amonhi, what are your thougts on that ??... I believe there is something to it, but it I am still pondering about it.. It's no knowledge to me yet, just a direction in which I am heading

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And NOW, O Father, glorify thou me WITH THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Christ glorified the Father by overcoming the world. After Christ had overcome the world, and before he went into the garden, he asked the Father to glorify Christ again with HIS OWN SELF, or the FATHERS GLORY.

Christ had to endure "hell" while being in the garden. And the greatest pain anyone can feel is not just the pain of your own guilt, but it is to stand in God's glory while having a full counsciousness of our own guilt.

Mormon 9:4

Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness BEFORE HIM, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

Mosiah 2:38

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to SHRINK from the PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

We would shrink before the presence of God.. Note, where do we find the word "shrink" again?

D&C 19:21

Which suffering caused myselfe, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit. and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and SHRINK

What if God visited Christ while being loaded with all our sins, appearing to him in full glory ? I think this would be even worse than being in hell. And hell, I asume, is the lowest anyone can get to.

[Amonhi]

Lets add some dimension to the law of sacrifice as it was not brought out completely in these articles.

Do we really understanding the sacrifice Christ made and what it represents? We say that “Christ died for our sins,” yet we say “we are accountable for our sins?” This makes no sense! This paradox is not meant to confuse us. To make sense of it we must understand what the ancients taught about sacrifice! Before we get into what the ancients knew we must understand that the message of Christ is that He lived, died and lived again! The metaphor is about “birth,” “death” and “resurrection” as it relates to agency and accountability.

Accountability says: “It is impossible for one to die for another’s sins.”

So what does the metaphor mean, “He died for our sins?”

Ok, you got my attention. You are asking the right questions...

When we say Christ “took upon himself the sins of the world” …this metaphor represents the sacrificed animal and blood of ancient Israel’s ceremonial observance and modern Israel’s ceremonial sacrament.

The “sins of the world” are again the “lusts of the flesh” associated with mortality that Christ and we take upon ourselves when we are born into mortality. Mortality connects us all together, and Christ understood this intimately on another level. Christ’s teachings showed us “how” to escape the world of “sin” through “repentance and forgiveness,” by putting on the “new man,” or partaking of “the fruits of the Spirit!” Christ’s sacrifice literally shows us “how” to individually place our “sins” upon the altar of our heart and never return to them again, ever!… we do this by clothing and immersing our thoughts and acts in “the fruits of righteousness,” a synonym for “the fruits of the Spirit,” or “the Holy Spirit,” “the tree of life,” “the atonement,” “the Spirit of the Lord,” or the “new name” to mention a few...

There are a lot of good concepts in your words, but I have a hard time translating them to the symbols of the atonement the way you do, but good points all the same. I am interested in reading more of your views, but find that the symbols of the atonement and sacrificing the goats is more literal than symbolic. For example, One of the goats was Jehovah and he was killed, Jesus. The other goat was Azazel and he killed himself, Judas.

[Amonhi]

I have a beautiful new understanding of the Atonement as of today. We accept the Atonement of Christ when we do, as the promise of Christ dictates...

Good post. Lots of good points.

I think that if you want to understand the punishment that the atonement protects us from, you could look at Alma the younger's experience, after the angel appeared to call him to repentance.

[Simon]

The atonement of Christ is the great and last sacrifice... Not simply a sacrifice of a man. No human sacrifice would ever have been enough.. it had to be infinite and eternal. No man can sacrifice his own blood to atone for the sins of another. There can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world..

God himselfe had to atone for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to satisfy the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just, and a merciful God..

We, on our part, have to "sacrifice our sins" and never shall return to them. We have to literally become the kind of mand Christ is.. This is what is ment with taking upon us his name ( our new name ), becoming one with Christ.. or being at one with him. Christ died not simply for all our sins, but he died only for those who are truely penitent. If mercy would rob justice, God would cease to be God.

[Simon]

When the criminal is guilty, then he must be served the punishment of the law. Justice demands that the guilty suffer the punishment of the law.

Let's say that an innocent person willingly comes to the judge and says, I had nothing to do with the crime, I am innocent, so let me suffer the punishment. Send me to jail and make me do the community service and let my brother go free with no penalty. He has changed and is now a nice person. What judge would say, "ok, sure?" If the innocent were to suffer the punishment of the guilty, then the innocent was treated unjustly, as was the criminal. Justice has been robbed and an even greater injustice is done.

The atonement does not rob justice to provide mercy.

It makes total sense to me that the guilty have to get punished, according to the law.I always understood it that way that we are all guilty, but without Christs atonement we would all forever remain guilty. Those that die in sin, will in fact remain guilty and suffer like Christ, but those that take upon them Christs name, can free themselves from their guilt by sacrficing to God through their repentance, faith, e.t.c... or by BEING like ( becoming ) Christ.

Those guilty remain in their guilt, or punishment.. And those that strip themselves from their guilt remain not in their guilt, or punishment, but can overcome that punishment by becoming like Christ. There still is a punishment, but through the atonement, mercy will have a claim on us in the end.

Christ suffered for the sins not to take away our acountability, but to change the effects of our accountability. He opened the possibility for us that our accountability, choice can have any other effect at all than becoming devils.

[Simon]

I didn't know that Denver Snuffer had a similar thought than I on Christ and the atonement... ( See my post below Denvers ) .. I was very surprised to find this, but it confirmes the testimony I have received and in which I believe.

Mosiah 3:7
This verse is the greatest summary of what the Lord would suffer in atoning for man's sins given before His mortality. King Benjamin is given this instruction because God wants all mankind to understand the great sacrifice made by the Lord Omnipotent.

Christ suffered "even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death" as part of the burden He bore. (Mosiah 3: 7.) What was the burden?

First on the angel's list is "temptations." Isaiah would call it "our griefs" and "our sorrows" and "our transgressions" and "our iniquities." (Isa. 53: 4-5.) Alma would call it "afflictions and temptations of every kind." (Alma 7: 11.) Paul explained how He "who knew no sin" was made "to be sin" for our sake. (2 Cor. 5: 21.) In other words, though Christ was not personally responsible for any transgression, He was made accountable for every one of all our transgressions. He was made "to be sin" and to feel the loathsome filthiness of our unworthiness before God.

Mormon had been in the Lord's presence. He knew how painful it was to be before God in our fallen and guilty state. Mormon explained how terrible it is to bring the weight of your own sins into God's holy presence. He describes it as "under a consciousness of your guilt" and "a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws" and "more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would be to dwell with the damned souls in hell." (Mormon 9: 3-4.) He explains that in God's presence "ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God" and it "will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you." (Mormon 9: 5.) Since Mormon had been there, and knew what it was like to behold God's holy presence, he understood the great challenge we all face if we do not repent.

When the prophet Isaiah was brought into God's presence he collapsed in guilt and anguish, proclaiming, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts." (Isa. 6: 5.)

Beholding God brings with it the keenest appreciation of your own unworthiness before Him so it is possible to understand He is a "just and holy Being" in whom there is no darkness.

Christ succumbed to no temptations. Yet He was made to feel the guilt and misery of all mankind's great surrender to sin. Christ explained what that involved when He declared: "repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore--how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I." (D&C 19: 15-17.) Christ, looking back on His atonement, called the pain of it "exquisite" and "hard to bear" from a distance of two millennia.

The scriptures tell us how His suffering was accomplished. As He knelt in prayer, He was visited by a "just and holy being" to borrow Mormon's words. (Luke 22: 43.) There, in the presence of the Father, Christ struggled through all the guilt, sorrow, nakedness, consciousness of guilt, and torment of being sinful, unworthy, unclean, and having ever transgressed the law of God. It was an unquenchable fire of emotion and pain, torment of mind, and recognition of failure before God. He, like all the wicked, "trembled because of pain" and "shrank" away from God in horror at His condition. (D&C 19: 18.)

Abraham was on the mount with the knife in his hand at the sacrifice of Isaac, and God the Father was present at the sacrifice of His Son. Indeed, Christ's sufferings required the Father to be present in order to reconcile man to the Father. It was the presence of the Father that made the suffering possible. Therefore, we know the identity of the unnamed angel in Luke. (Luke 22: 43.) Christ could not have suffered the guilt of all mankind in the presence of a just and holy God, unless during this moment of torment His suffering was before that very Being

Amonhi, what are your thougts on that ??... I believe there is something to it, but it I am still pondering about it.. It's no knowledge to me yet, just a direction in which I am heading

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And NOW, O Father, glorify thou me WITH THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Christ glorified the Father by overcoming the world. After Christ had overcome the world, and before he went into the garden, he asked the Father to glorify Christ again with HIS OWN SELF, or the FATHERS GLORY.

Christ had to endure "hell" while being in the garden. And the greatest pain anyone can feel is not just the pain of your own guilt, but it is to stand in God's glory while having a full counsciousness of our own guilt.

Mormon 9:4

Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness BEFORE HIM, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

Mosiah 2:38

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to SHRINK from the PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

We would shrink before the presence of God.. Note, where do we find the word "shrink" again?

D&C 19:21

Which suffering caused myselfe, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit. and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and SHRINK

What if God visited Christ while being loaded with all our sins, appearing to him in full glory ? I think this would be even worse than being in hell. And hell, I asume, is the lowest anyone can get to.

[Amonhi]

If God did not meet our demands, then we would not honor him and he would lose his power which comes from His honor or rather from our ability to honor him.

That sounds like Skousen's Theory:

Indeed, it does. It also sounds like Doctrine and Covenants 29:36:

And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

Is God's honor truly his power? Or was Satan misguided in asking for God's honor here?

And it is the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood, D&C 121, that tells us how to gain that same honor and concludes with verse 46 saying:

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Without compulsion, our dominion will flow to us, if we do the things detailed in the D&C. Now, when America was new, in many ways, it did the things discussed in D&C 121 and people flowed to it. They came from everywhere. Now, not so much. Now the wealthy and the wise are fleeing America because it has broken a number of the points of that section.

This website was created and continues to exist with its structure and foundation in line with D&C 121. It grows and people flow to it because of the freedoms they have here.

Even Christ is seen using the principles of the priesthood found in D&C 121 when he is negotiating with "Legion" and casts them out into the pigs, (Mark 5). I myself have cast out devils by converting them, (or their leader who converted others who converted others until the entire group was converted), to the light of Christ and they willingly left on pleasant terms, having blessed the person they had been cursing, without a fight, and with the intent to do good, progress, etc.

My point being that our dominion will flow to us, just as it flows to God, if we live the principles of the priesthood spelled out in D&C 121 known as "the principles of righteousness", (D&C 121:36). And it flows to us because we are honorable. But, if God were to lie or do something dishonorable, then he would cease to be God or cease to have honor. Honor of whom, those whom he governs who place themselves under him freely because they find Him to be the champion of themselves and their freedoms/agency.

And then, there is the seeming contradiction that you pointed out...

Tell me, what do you make of that passage (and I'll quote from the Joseph Smith Translation.)

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things; to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36.)

God is actually a God, even if He does not have a dominion, or power beyond His own. He is a God over his sphere which may be very small, like ours will be when we first start out. A god of oneself is still a God. Nobody has made him a God over himself, except him. Nobody can make you a God over yourself except you. And, if you earn a dominion over others, based on righteous principles, then it will be you that did it. You that learned and applied the principles by with dominion flowed to you.

BUT, there is another way to have dominion, which you did not earn for yourself...

Given Skousen's theory, God "derives his authority and power" from these uncreated intelligences (who give Him their love, respect, and obedience), and without that He wouldn't even be God.

UNORGANIZED Intelligences...

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29 - 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

But they are organized...

Abraham 3:22 - Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

You asked,

Doesn't that contradict what Paul was implying by these rhetorical questions in Romans 11?

No, it doesn't.

And doesn't it contradict what the book of Mormon (or is it the book of Moses?) says about God giving man his agency?

Not sure. Can you find the reference?

I mean if these uncreated intelligences are "self-aware entities that are self-existent" and "are independent and act voluntarily, and cannot be compelled," and "God is 'God' only because he is respected and loved by the intelligences of the universe," and "every human is an intelligence at his core," wouldn't "agency" have to be uncreated? I mean how could God give us our agency if He's only God because we already freely obey Him?

What you are asking is how could Satan gain power if the intelligences ONLY follow based on agency and free will. Now, granted in time, Satan would have lost his power because no power or influence can be maintained except by virtue of righteous principles. But, look at cults who use principles of unrighteousness to maintain power and dominion over others. That dominion lasts for some time. Could be many years. And using dark means a person or group can maintain control for many generations before the people are fleeing that person or group. So, if Satan could just gain control for a short period, he was certain he could maintain that control for a great while, which he though would be eternal control. Our governments do the same thing. They get control over a people and then bind them. It takes a while for the people to realize that the government has no power without the people backing them, filling their armies and navies, courts and police systems. If the people did not support the government, then it would fall apart. But, it would last a great while with the people murmuring, complaining, etc... And if the government can enact laws that promote fear and control before the people can react, then the government can extend its unrighteous reign even longer, until the people feel it is better to die than live under this dominion.

How does someone like Satan Gain dominion in an instant over what God has earned over time?

We do this all the time. Its called name dropping. "Tell them that Amonhi sent you." You go and drop my name and now people that you have never met in your life respect you and treat you as if you were me. And, if they don't then I feel disrespected. What if the president of the United States said to a person, go to some group and tell them that I sent you... That group would immediately give the messenger whatever respect they had for the president. If they hated the president, then they will hate this man. If they loved the president, then they will love this man.

This is what happened to 3rd Nephi as recorded in Hel. 10. God gave Nephi His honor...

4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.

5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.

6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people. - Hel. 10

Nephi was honorable and God gave to Nephi His own honor. God Honored Nephi. Or God gave Nephi his honor.

You are right though. If God gave Satan his honor and Satan abused it then eventually it would fail, just like a messenger from the president could abuse that honor and lose the respect of the group to whom he was sent in the president's name.

Edit: Essentially Satan was asking God to "vouch" for him and thereby give Satan the honor and respect that God had earned for himself. God said, "no way!"

I do believe a number of points that Skousen detailed, but feel that he missed the greater part of the purpose of the atonement. So please do not construe my agreement on these points as being complete agreement with Skousen.

Did this resolve your questions or perhaps bring up more questions?

Amonhi

[truth]

I think that if you want to understand the punishment that the atonement protects us from, you could look at Alma the younger's experience, after the angel appeared to call him to repentance.

Mosiah 27:24

For, said [Alma the Younger], I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

and later . . .

The Fall and Infinite Atonement By Elder Spencer J. Condie

Alma teaches us that “there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment” (Alma 42:22). By atoning for our sins as our Father planned, the Savior stands “betwixt” all of us sinners and the demands of justice, “having … taken upon himself [our] iniquity and [our] transgressions” (Mosiah 15:8–9). An atonement which could satisfy justice required the sacrifice of an innocent person who would vicariously suffer the punishment for the sins of others (see Alma 34:8–16). Justice demanded death, and the Redeemer died that he might become the firstfruits of the Resurrection and overcome the bonds of death. Mercy opened the way for the resurrection of all.

As I am understanding this, Christ stands in for all of us--he Atones with us in our fallen and depraved state with His perfect sinless body until such time as we atone with Him and are redeemed, being born of the Spirit, where we also can be found spotless before God, and where we choose to be-one-with His perfection.

Mormon 9:13

And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.

The Atonement is infinite because Christ will continue to stand proxy on our behalf for an unlimited period of time, even until all Spirits have chosen their own glory (or lack thereof).

Alma 34:8-10

And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.

9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.

10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Christ's eternal sacrifice is His love for us. He offers life instead of death. He sacrifices all that He is in glory and all that he has to do the work that we might become that love and be willing also to give all that we've been given and do the work in His name.

Moses 1:39

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Maybe?

[Simon]

I have many people around me that I love so dearly, I love them so much that there were times where I prayed to God that he would punish me instead of them. It may not be just to me, because I may not have comitted their sins, but because my love is so intense for them, I would still suffer this. When Christ suffered for us, Isiah says, he saw "his seed".. I believe that Christ only was able to endure the atonement because of his true love for the Father, and his seed ( us ) ...

I believe once such a person would truely understand what I would have done for them, this knowledge would cause great suffering to their consious, and in that way they would also receive a "punishment".,. but would still get out of that situation.. ( If I were a saviour )

I could not imagine a greater love than this.. And Christ gave his life for us, which prooves his great love for us. I am sure there is much we still have to learn about the atonmement.. I remember Gorden B. Hinkley speak about it, and he said he doesn't know how it works.. I deeply want to understand how it works because it's the greatest work that has ever been done on this earth.

[Amonhi]

So the devil himself never had agency?

I didn't read the link on agency for lack of time. But I know that the requirements for agency are detailed in 2 Nephi 2.

Because light and dark, good and bad exist as a natural result of natural law, and intelligence is given the ability to choose between the light and the dark, good and bad; A devil is not required for us to sin. He does tempt us toward the bad, but the bad exists without the devil.

We learn from Alma 13 that we had agency in the premortal world, in the presence of God, and that we used that agency to choose from the good and bad that existed there. We did in fact sin in the pre-mortal world and presence of God. Contrary to what we are taught, you can sin in the presence of God and still remain in His presence. (I am sure you can think of scriptures that appear to contradict this concept, and maybe would could discuss them, but rather than rewriting this, I will refer you to a link by my friend Seeker from the Elliaison Forum that talks about how we sinned as spirits in the pre-mortal world and presence of God - HERE

Amonhi

[log]

Maybe you should read the agency thread.

[inquirringmind]

I myself have cast out devils by converting them, (or their leader who converted others who converted others until the entire group was converted), to the light of Christ and they willingly left on pleasant terms, having blessed the person they had been cursing, without a fight, and with the intent to do good, progress, etc

Can fallen angels be converted to do good and progress?

[Amonhi]

Yes, he had agency; he rebelled, and that action was binding.

Mankind, cut off from God as we are, doesn't have agency in mortality without being tempted one way or the other.

We definately need to have a preference toward good or bad. As stated in 2 Ne. 2:16 says it this way,

Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

We don't need to be tempted, per say. But we have to have a preference for one or the other of the options. If it is all "white" to us, or perhaps we hate all the options equally, then our "Agency" is significantly diminished even though we have the ability to choose between the things we don't want.

Some people say you can't take away agency and use for an example a terrorist holding a gun to your head. They say you can choose to do what they tell you or to die. They think that the ability to choose means that you are an agent unto yourself, but under this scenario, you aren't. Sure you can choose between two bad options. But does that mean you are an agent to yourself or you are an agent to the guy holding the gun? Choice is not agency. It is an aspect of agency, but not hte whole ball of wax.

We don't have to be tempted by one option or the other, but enticed by one option or the other. If I told you that you could have chocolate or vanilla ice cream, and you said, you only like strawberry then you aren't going to get what you want. So, your options have been limited to have gross iscream or no ice cream. If you were an agent to yourself, you might get in the car and buy strawberry ice cream. If you are not an agent to yourself, then you are not empowered to get according to your desires.

Agency is all about how able we are to accomplish our desires, not just making random, meaningless choices.

[log]

But we have to have a preference for one or the other of the options. If it is all "white" to us, or perhaps we hate all the options equally, then our "Agency" is significantly diminished even though we have the ability to choose between the things we don't want.

Perhaps you should read the link on agency.

[Amonhi]

Yes, he had agency; he rebelled, and that action was binding.

Mankind, cut off from God as we are, doesn't have agency in mortality without being tempted one way or the other.

So the devil had agency, and could choose to rebel when he was in Heavenly Father's house (without being tempted one way or another?), but mortal man, here on earth, wouldn't have agency, or be able to choose without a devil to tempt him?

Why?

Apparently, he was angry, and because of that, he willfully sinned in the presence of God. That's an instant out.

God protects agency, even the agency that leads to sin. The "instant out" that got Satan and his follows kicked out of heaven was not generic sin. I was specifically attempting to take the agency of others. The penalty is, cast them out of our society. A fitting penalty that should be given to a number of our political leaders in my opinion.

[Amonhi]

I myself have cast out devils by converting them, (or their leader who converted others who converted others until the entire group was converted), to the light of Christ andtime they willingly left on pleasant terms, having blessed the person they had been cursing, without a fight, and with the intent to do good, progress, etc

Can fallen angels be converted to do good and progress?

Yes, I have seen it and also done it. They realize you are about to cast them out. This gives you some leverage as the are going to leave, but how they will leave and the terms are up for negotiation. You talk with the leader or head devil that the others respect and convert him, then invite him to convert the others. Once they are converted, you ask them if there is anything they would like to do before leaving to give them the time and oppertunity to fix any damage they have done. When they are finished they are ready to go, and they leave. Convert them to follow the dim little light that is inside even themselves. The light of Christ.

[Amonhi]

I myself have cast out devils by converting them, (or their leader who converted others who converted others until the entire group was converted), to the light of Christ and they willingly left on pleasant terms, having blessed the person they had been cursing, without a fight, and with the intent to do good, progress, etc

Can fallen angels be converted to do good and progress?

Perhaps they are not fallen angels the way you are thinking. More or less devils or negative spiritual entities.

Typing on my phone...please excuse the typos.

[katmr]

I myself have cast out devils by converting them, (or their leader who converted others who converted others until the entire group was converted), to the light of Christ andtime they willingly left on pleasant terms, having blessed the person they had been cursing, without a fight, and with the intent to do good, progress, etc

Can fallen angels be converted to do good and progress?

Yes, I have seen it and also done it. They realize you are about to cast them out. This gives you some leverage as the are going to leave, but how they will leave and the terms are up for negotiation. You talk with the leader or head devil that the others respect and convert him, then invite him to convert the others. Once they are converted, you ask them if there is anything they would like to do before leaving to give them the time and oppertunity to fix any damage they have done. When they are finished they are ready to go, and they leave. Convert them to follow the dim little light that is inside even themselves. The light of Christ.

Just a question about this, Amonhi? Is there anything written in the scriptures regarding, that these fallen angels can be converted? Or is this just something that you experienced? How did it come about that you felt to talk to the head leader? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions. I just always thought they are to be cast out, at least that's the only pattern I'm aware of. Thanks for any insight you could offer.