The Atonement: How Does It Work?

[log]

Discuss.

[Amonhi]

To me the atonement is comparably with this analogy.

I drive too fast with my car, the policemen ( God ) comes up and requires that I pay 100 Dollars right away.. I say.. "Sorry, I don't have that amount of money".. So the policemen, or God, offers me to either go to prison, or pay the amount. I can't get out of this unless I go to prison.. My best friend (Christ) comes along and offers that he will pay the 100 Dollars right away, so that the policemen ( God ) will be satisfied, and at the same time Christ offers me that I pay him the hundtred dollare back in small amounts..

At least this is how it applys to all those who can't pay the 100 dollars by themselves.. Christ was the only one at that time who was even able to pay that amount. That's why he is the way, the truth and the light, the only name by which w can enter God's kingdom.

In this scenario, you are still paying the $100 or the punishment. It is kind of a delayed punishment. Or incremental punishment. You scenario has Christ paying for your sin and then getting refunded over time. Christ, the innocent, cannot pay for your sins without robbing justice.

In our legal system that just wants to make money and associates money with penalties, it doesn't really care who pays the money. If I break the law, and owe a fine of $350, they don't care if I borrow the money from a friend or family, they just want to be paid. This is not justice. And we see that in some cases people will pay the fines for their spoiled children and the child never learns the lesson because they avoided the punishment.

The fact is that is we are not allowed to experience the consequences of our actions, (good or bad), then we have been robbed of agency. But when the consequences are the punishment of the law, then justice has been robbed as well. I am not saying that the atonement doesn't work. It does. It is genius! Every jot and tittle! It completely satisfies justice and allows for mercy in the most perfect Judicial systems. (Corrupt systems are flawed and they don't require an atonement to avoid the punishment, you just pay off the judge and Justice gets robbed and you go on with your life.) The "demands of Justice" are ultimately unavoidable. Even God could not avoid or negate the demands of Justice if they were after him.

[pilgrim]

.

[Amonhi]

A court of law sentences a man to prison for 10 years in prison and 200 hours of community service. Lets us for the sake of this discussion that he is INNOCENT and the guilty were to go free while the innocent suffered for him. Has justice been fulfilled just because someone took the punishment? Can anyone just take the punishment of the law and fulfill justice? Is justice really fulfilled by someone sitting in prison for 10 years and doing 200 hours of community service?

If it was, then a mobster would hire someone to go to jail for them every time they got caught and sentenced. Justice isn't just about dealing out a punishment. It is about making sure the guilty be punished. Justice is robbed if the guilty is not punished. If the innocent is punished for the guilty, then justice is not only robbed, but insulted and a great injustice has been done by the law which inflicts its punishment on the innocent.

When the criminal is guilty, then he must be served the punishment of the law. Justice demands that the guilty suffer the punishment of the law.

Let's say that an innocent person willingly comes to the judge and says, I had nothing to do with the crime, I am innocent, so let me suffer the punishment. Send me to jail and make me do the community service and let my brother go free with no penalty. He has changed and is now a nice person. What judge would say, "ok, sure?" If the innocent were to suffer the punishment of the guilty, then the innocent was treated unjustly, as was the criminal. Justice has been robbed and an even greater injustice is done.

The atonement does not rob justice to provide mercy.

Okay, I just respond with what my understanding of this is right now..

Of course you did, What else could we expect. I do the same..

I believe that Christ went below all things so that he could rise above all things. I believe this is a process we have all to go through at some point. What was the hardest pain that Christ had to suffer? When Christ took upon him all our sins, I believe that that what caused him to bleed from every pore was to endure the presence and glory of the father while being loaden with our sins and filth. Thats how he went below all things, and this is what allowed him to stand afterwards above all things, may that be sins or hell.

Jesus suffered the buffetings of Satan in the Garden. He saw what people would do to each other in his name... among other things... But his suffer was for our sins, but not the way it is commonly interpreted.

Charity is the pure love of Christ. The word "of" can create 3 meanings.

• Charity is the pure love from Christ.
• Charity is the pure love for Christ.
• Charity is the pure love like Christ.

The atonement is riddled with dual meanings which hide what is really happening.

Why are children innocent? Only because of the atonement. We are born into this world with sin, and Christ was not. All would be devils and lost without his atonement for us.

Christ was born a son into the world under the same constraints we are. If he were given a "leg up" then we could rightly complain that had we been given the same "leg up" we could have done what he did. He had to be put under the same conditions we are in order to be an example of what we could do. Also to be an example of how to do what he did. If he had blessings not available to us, then we could not look at him as an example to follow. Like a dog looking at a horse and saying, if I try really hard, someday I can be a horse too. Christ decended to our level to show us the path out of our hole. He also descended into the lowest hole man finds themselves in. Not all men have fallen that low. These men had fallen so low that they were willing to kill there God. He showed us that it is doable. We have to walk the same path he walked to get out.

I see it that way. Christ payed to God the price under the conditions he required of him.

God isn't the one demanding justice. God is and was already merciful, before the foundations of the world. he didn't need the atonement to be more perfect in mercy. But he did need the atonement to make us merciful because we are imperfect the ones demanding that God be Just. If God did not meet our demands, then we would not honor him and he would lose his power which comes from His honor or rather from our ability to honor him.

Alma 34:15 - And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

It is not God's bowels that need more mercy, but ours. God is the just judge who has to fulfill justice or be removed from office for being unjust.

We have to pay the price to Christ under the conditions he has laid out for us ( keeping his commandments). Only paying the price to the Father allowed Christ to change the conditions for us. And all God required was that this price gets payed.

This may sound funny, but it is the light of Christ or the infinite eternal intelligences that demands the punishment.

I assume I would have to think a little deeper about your view

Not deeper, differently. It is actually very basic to the point that a child could easily understand it if that child were not indoctrinated with false ideas. I am certain that I could walk a 5 year old with average intelligence through the concepts by asking questions and letting them answer for themselves.

[Contemplator]

Let me just throw out an alternate story. Assume that there are only two kinds of people: mean and nice. We are all born into mortality mean by nature. But, within us is a spirit that yearns to be nice. We just don't know at the outset how to be nice inside a mean mortal body.

Because of the death and resurrection of Christ, we all rise from mortal death and are lifted up to be judged of God. Thus, everyone is subject to the mercy of being delivered from the grave. And, we all have a mortal experience, filled with many mistakes made where we are mean, rather than nice. If we arrive back to God and are still mean, we have to leave. This is justice at work. If, however, through receiving Christ and His ability to overcome all sin and weakness, we become nice, then we arrive back to God as sons and daughters of God who have learned to be nice in a mortal body. It justice is served when we stay in God's presence because we belong there.

I know this is way to simple, but it captures a few main ideas. First, resurrection overcomes death. Christ had to die and rise again to make it possible for us to do the same. Second, through the things He suffered, Jesus learned how to overcome our natural man such that we can become people who belong in God's presence. Mercy is that we get to learn how to live in a body, and make mistakes in mortality, and be assured that we will return to God. Justice is that people who belong in God's presence stay there. Those who do not belong in God's presence go elsewhere.

The problem with the payment analogies is that it makes no sense that an innocent man could "pay a price" and that we could live with God regardless of whether we belong there. For whatever it is worth, the words "pay the price of sin" are not in the scriptures.

[Simon]

To me the atonement is comparably with this analogy.

I drive too fast with my car, the policemen ( God ) comes up and requires that I pay 100 Dollars right away.. I say.. "Sorry, I don't have that amount of money".. So the policemen, or God, offers me to either go to prison, or pay the amount. I can't get out of this unless I go to prison.. My best friend (Christ) comes along and offers that he will pay the 100 Dollars right away, so that the policemen ( God ) will be satisfied, and at the same time Christ offers me that I pay him the hundtred dollare back in small amounts..

At least this is how it applys to all those who can't pay the 100 dollars by themselves.. Christ was the only one at that time who was even able to pay that amount. That's why he is the way, the truth and the light, the only name by which w can enter God's kingdom.

In this scenario, you are still paying the $100 or the punishment. It is kind of a delayed punishment. Or incremental punishment. You scenario has Christ paying for your sin and then getting refunded over time. Christ, the innocent, cannot pay for your sins without robbing justice.

Christ payed the price under harder conditions. He had to pay instansly, if you will.. He gave all he posessed. We do not have to pay instantly, but pay back in rates. This way we give all we can give. Christ did not take away the price we all have to pay, but he changed the conditions under which we have to fulfill those conditions..

Is this how you mean it Amonhi ?

[Simon]

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And NOW, O Father, glorify thou me WITH THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Christ glorified the Father by overcoming the world. After Christ had overcome the world, and before he went into the garden, he asked the Father to glorify Christ again with HIS OWN SELF, or the FATHERS GLORY.

Christ had to endure "hell" while being in the garden. And the greatest pain anyone can feel is not just the pain of your own guilt, but it is to stand in God's glory while having a full counsciousness of our own guilt.

Mormon 9:4

Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness BEFORE HIM, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

Mosiah 2:38

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to SHRINK from the PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

We would shrink before the presence of God.. Note, where do we find the word "shrink" again?

D&C 19:21

Which suffering caused myselfe, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit. and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and SHRINK

What if God visited Christ while being loaded with all our sins, appearing to him in full glory ? I think this would be even worse than being in hell. And hell, I asume, is the lowest anyone can get to.

[SkyBird]

There are "two" types of "atonement" and to understand "atonement" or "at-one-ment" you must first understand the law of "sacrifice!"

[Bee Prepared]

There are "two" types of "atonement" and to understand "atonement" or "at-one-ment" you must first understand the law of "sacrifice!"

Mar. 2002
The Law of Sacrifice
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The Law of Sacrifice



By Elder M. Russell Ballard

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.

M. Russell Ballard
From an address given to Church Educational System educators at Brigham Young University on 13 August 1996.

The two major purposes of the law of sacrifice are to test and prove us and to assist us in coming unto Christ.



A few years ago, my family and I visited Palmyra, New York; Kirtland, Ohio; and Nauvoo, Illinois. We reviewed the early history of the Church on that trip and were reminded of the overwhelming sacrifices the founders of the Church made to establish the kingdom of God in this last dispensation.

Reflecting upon their humble obedience focused my mind on the eternal nature of the law of sacrifice, a vital part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was practiced in Old Testament, New Testament, and Book of Mormon times. While its practice changed during the New Testament period, the purposes of the law of sacrifice remained in place even after the Atonement of Christ fulfilled the law of Moses.

Usually, the first thing people think of when they hear “law of Moses” is animal sacrifice. The somewhat gruesome nature of blood sacrifice has led some to ask, “How could such an activity have anything to do with the gospel of love?” We can better understand the answer to that question when we understand the two major purposes for the law of sacrifice. These purposes applied to Adam, Abraham, Moses, and the New Testament Apostles, and they apply to us today as we accept and live the law of sacrifice. Its two major purposes are to test and prove us and to assist us in coming unto Christ.



The law of sacrifice provides an opportunity for us to prove to the Lord that we love Him more than any other thing. As a result, the course sometimes becomes difficult since this is the process of perfection that prepares us for the celestial kingdom to “dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever” (D&C 76:62).

Next, President Ezra Taft Benson (1899–1994) explained that “the sacred mission of the Church … [is] to ‘invite all to come unto Christ’ (D&C 20:59)” (“‘Come unto Christ, and Be Perfected in Him,’” Ensign, May 1988, 84; see also Moro. 10:32). In that light, the law of sacrifice has always been a means for God’s children to come unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

How does sacrifice help us come unto Christ? No one will ever accept the Savior without having faith in Him first. Hence, the first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Accordingly, the Prophet Joseph Smith (1805–44) explained an important relationship between the principle of faith and the principle of sacrifice: “Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; … it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life” (Lectures on Faith [1985], 69).

To summarize: we must know what we do is pleasing before God and understand that this knowledge comes to us through sacrifice and obedience. Those who come unto Christ in this way receive a confidence that whispers peace to their souls and that will eventually enable them to lay hold upon eternal life.

[truth]

I have a beautiful new understanding of the Atonement as of today. We accept the Atonement of Christ when we do, as the promise of Christ dictates in D&C 64:10 :

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

We are required not just to forgive but to remember our sins and the sins of others not at all.
D&C 58:42

Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.

Repented means turned totally away from. Otherwise we retain our guilt, as Simon relates in Mosiah 2:38 claim our consequence:

Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to SHRINK from the PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

Our guilt is that which we have for accusing others, demanding justice when we haven’t been just to our neighbor.
Instead, Christ asks us to offer the same mercy to all that he offers to us. Isaiah 1: 18:

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

What could be more "reasonable" than to ask that we act and do for others as Christ has done for us.

[Amonhi]

To me the atonement is comparably with this analogy.

I drive too fast with my car, the policemen ( God ) comes up and requires that I pay 100 Dollars right away.. I say.. "Sorry, I don't have that amount of money".. So the policemen, or God, offers me to either go to prison, or pay the amount. I can't get out of this unless I go to prison.. My best friend (Christ) comes along and offers that he will pay the 100 Dollars right away, so that the policemen ( God ) will be satisfied, and at the same time Christ offers me that I pay him the hundtred dollare back in small amounts..

At least this is how it applys to all those who can't pay the 100 dollars by themselves.. Christ was the only one at that time who was even able to pay that amount. That's why he is the way, the truth and the light, the only name by which w can enter God's kingdom.

In this scenario, you are still paying the $100 or the punishment. It is kind of a delayed punishment. Or incremental punishment. You scenario has Christ paying for your sin and then getting refunded over time. Christ, the innocent, cannot pay for your sins without robbing justice.

Christ payed the price under harder conditions. He had to pay instansly, if you will.. He gave all he posessed. We do not have to pay instantly, but pay back in rates. This way we give all we can give. Christ did not take away the price we all have to pay, but he changed the conditions under which we have to fulfill those conditions..

Is this how you mean it Amonhi ?

No. In the quote above I was trying to clarify what you were saying and show the error in the concept. Maybe I didn't do a good job? lol. I do not believe in the delayed payment on our part. I believe in the avoiding punishment via proving innocence through repentance. Eventually we cannot prove innocence any more and are subject to the punishment of our sins when we act with knowledge and will...

I read my words, and I see what they are saying. And from my view point, they make perfect sense and are correct. But I also see what tehy say and mean from the viewpoint of the common atonement and from that view point they are flat wrong. You cannot interpret them correctly from the old way of thinking. This is one of the challenges that the Elliaison Group are experiencing. We can't open up the visions of heaven with perfect clarity as was show to us. Our words are so limiting...(shaking my head)

I am afraid that without seeing the whole thing or at least being lead point by point it will lead people astray and cause them to stop relying on Christ. Not the point. You can't jump ahead without hurting yourself...

"Oh no I've said too much, I haven't said enough..." - R.E.M.
:-ss,
Amonhi

[SkyBird]

There are "two" types of "atonement" and to understand "atonement" or "at-one-ment" you must first understand the law of "sacrifice!"

Mar. 2002
The Law of Sacrifice
.Previous
Next
.HomeLDS.org
Magazines
Liahona


Mar. 2002
The Law of Sacrifice
.Previous
Next

The Law of Sacrifice



By Elder M. Russell Ballard

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.

M. Russell Ballard
From an address given to Church Educational System educators at Brigham Young University on 13 August 1996.

The two major purposes of the law of sacrifice are to test and prove us and to assist us in coming unto Christ.



A few years ago, my family and I visited Palmyra, New York; Kirtland, Ohio; and Nauvoo, Illinois. We reviewed the early history of the Church on that trip and were reminded of the overwhelming sacrifices the founders of the Church made to establish the kingdom of God in this last dispensation.

Reflecting upon their humble obedience focused my mind on the eternal nature of the law of sacrifice, a vital part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was practiced in Old Testament, New Testament, and Book of Mormon times. While its practice changed during the New Testament period, the purposes of the law of sacrifice remained in place even after the Atonement of Christ fulfilled the law of Moses.

Usually, the first thing people think of when they hear “law of Moses” is animal sacrifice. The somewhat gruesome nature of blood sacrifice has led some to ask, “How could such an activity have anything to do with the gospel of love?” We can better understand the answer to that question when we understand the two major purposes for the law of sacrifice. These purposes applied to Adam, Abraham, Moses, and the New Testament Apostles, and they apply to us today as we accept and live the law of sacrifice. Its two major purposes are to test and prove us and to assist us in coming unto Christ.



The law of sacrifice provides an opportunity for us to prove to the Lord that we love Him more than any other thing. As a result, the course sometimes becomes difficult since this is the process of perfection that prepares us for the celestial kingdom to “dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever” (D&C 76:62).

Next, President Ezra Taft Benson (1899–1994) explained that “the sacred mission of the Church … [is] to ‘invite all to come unto Christ’ (D&C 20:59)” (“‘Come unto Christ, and Be Perfected in Him,’” Ensign, May 1988, 84; see also Moro. 10:32). In that light, the law of sacrifice has always been a means for God’s children to come unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

How does sacrifice help us come unto Christ? No one will ever accept the Savior without having faith in Him first. Hence, the first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Accordingly, the Prophet Joseph Smith (1805–44) explained an important relationship between the principle of faith and the principle of sacrifice: “Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; … it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life” (Lectures on Faith [1985], 69).

To summarize: we must know what we do is pleasing before God and understand that this knowledge comes to us through sacrifice and obedience. Those who come unto Christ in this way receive a confidence that whispers peace to their souls and that will eventually enable them to lay hold upon eternal life.

Lets add some dimension to the law of sacrifice as it was not brought out completely in these articles.

Do we really understanding the sacrifice Christ made and what it represents? We say that “Christ died for our sins,” yet we say “we are accountable for our sins?” This makes no sense! This paradox is not meant to confuse us. To make sense of it we must understand what the ancients taught about sacrifice! Before we get into what the ancients knew we must understand that the message of Christ is that He lived, died and lived again! The metaphor is about “birth,” “death” and “resurrection” as it relates to agency and accountability.

Accountability says: “It is impossible for one to die for another’s sins.”

So what does the metaphor mean, “He died for our sins?” To understand this we must go back to ancient Israel’s ceremonial metaphor of the sacrificed animal and the blood of that animal. Both the sacrificed animal and the blood “represent” the same thing! (Leviticus16).
The ancients taught us that the only true “sacrifice” any of us can make is to place our “sins” upon the altar of fire so that they are consumed completely from our lives, so that we never partake of them again! Ever! That is true sacrifice! So the “sacrificed animal” and “blood” that is placed and poured upon the altar or scapegoat, literally represents all the “lusts of the flesh” (Galatians 5: 16, 19-21) we are to give up completely…and replace them with the “fruits of the Spirit” completely (Galatians 5: 22-26)!

When we say Christ “took upon himself the sins of the world” …this metaphor represents the sacrificed animal and blood of ancient Israel’s ceremonial observance and modern Israel’s ceremonial sacrament. The “sins of the world” are again the “lusts of the flesh” associated with mortality that Christ and we take upon ourselves when we are born into mortality. Mortality connects us all together, and Christ understood this intimately on another level. Christ’s teachings showed us “how” to escape the world of “sin” through “repentance and forgiveness,” by putting on the “new man,” or partaking of “the fruits of the Spirit!” Christ’s sacrifice literally shows us “how” to individually place our “sins” upon the altar of our heart and never return to them again, ever!… we do this by clothing and immersing our thoughts and acts in “the fruits of righteousness,” a synonym for “the fruits of the Spirit,” or “the Holy Spirit,” “the tree of life,” “the atonement,” “the Spirit of the Lord,” or the “new name” to mention a few.

The only spiritual sacrifice any of us can literally make is to place the sins of mortality on the altar of fire and then clothe ourselves in the robe of righteousness, called “the fruit of the Spirit!” We are each accountable for our own sins (Christ sacrifice testifies of this) and not Adams transgressions… this personal accountability is what Christ taught in His Sermon on the Mount and parables. To understand Christ’s sacrifice properly we must understand the symbolism of ancient Israel’s sacrifices and its relationship to “sin” and “holiness!” We cannot “be holy” as God is holy unless we sacrifice our sins completely upon the altar of fire! We cannot be “born again” or receive a “new name” completely unless we put all the sins of mortality upon the sacrificial cross and become “one” in “the fruits of the Spirit” as the Father and Christ are “one.” This is the “Law of Sacrifice” unveiled to a degree; however, there is a deeper meaning to it that those who become Gods embrace intimately on another level, which I call atonement in 3D or the three dimensions of atonement!

[lemuel]

To me the atonement is comparably with this analogy.

I drive too fast with my car, the policemen ( God ) comes up and requires that I pay 100 Dollars right away.. I say.. "Sorry, I don't have that amount of money".. So the policemen, or God, offers me to either go to prison, or pay the amount. I can't get out of this unless I go to prison.. My best friend (Christ) comes along and offers that he will pay the 100 Dollars right away, so that the policemen ( God ) will be satisfied, and at the same time Christ offers me that I pay him the hundtred dollare back in small amounts..

At least this is how it applys to all those who can't pay the 100 dollars by themselves.. Christ was the only one at that time who was even able to pay that amount. That's why he is the way, the truth and the light, the only name by which w can enter God's kingdom.

In this scenario, you are still paying the $100 or the punishment. It is kind of a delayed punishment. Or incremental punishment. You scenario has Christ paying for your sin and then getting refunded over time. Christ, the innocent, cannot pay for your sins without robbing justice.

In our legal system that just wants to make money and associates money with penalties, it doesn't really care who pays the money. If I break the law, and owe a fine of $350, they don't care if I borrow the money from a friend or family, they just want to be paid. This is not justice. And we see that in some cases people will pay the fines for their spoiled children and the child never learns the lesson because they avoided the punishment.

The fact is that is we are not allowed to experience the consequences of our actions, (good or bad), then we have been robbed of agency. But when the consequences are the punishment of the law, then justice has been robbed as well. I am not saying that the atonement doesn't work. It does. It is genius! Every jot and tittle! It completely satisfies justice and allows for mercy in the most perfect Judicial systems. (Corrupt systems are flawed and they don't require an atonement to avoid the punishment, you just pay off the judge and Justice gets robbed and you go on with your life.) The "demands of Justice" are ultimately unavoidable. Even God could not avoid or negate the demands of Justice if they were after him.

Who is the policeman? Who is it that demands payment? Who gets to demand justice?

For some reason I think Joseph Smith's quote

If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven, and if you will follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me, I will take you into heaven as my back load. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours—for charity covereth a multitude of sins.

matters a lot.

[log]

Yeah. I'm staying out of this one because all I have is an opinion.

I have not seen a comprehensive explanation yet for how the atonement works which is consistent. Snuffer undermines some of the assumptions of Skousen, and Blake Ostler's "compassion theory" of the atonement was dead before it hit paper - back when Paul wrote his epistles, which contradict it at every significant point.

[inquirringmind]

Discuss.

It seems to me that nothing could show man the meaning of love, and (at the same time) the seriousness of sin, like God incarnate sacrificing Himself for human sin.

And here are a few passages that (especially when taken together) seem to indicate that showing us the meaning of love and the seriousness of sin was the purpose of The Atonement.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. (1 John 4:7-11.)

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. (1 Peter 1:17-21.)

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:5-8.)

Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. (1 Peter 2:17-25.)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16.)

"As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.(John 15:9-13.)

And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. (John 17:19.)

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor. 5:21.)

[heartsongs]

2 really good books I have read about the Atonement were:
"The Infinite Atonement"
"Gethsemane"

I learned things about the Atonement from these two books that I never knew.
They are an excellent read!

[Amonhi]

Our guilt is that which we have for accusing others, demanding justice when we haven’t been just to our neighbor.
Instead, Christ asks us to offer the same mercy to all that he offers to us. Isaiah 1: 18:

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

What could be more "reasonable" than to ask that we act and do for others as Christ has done for us.

The law of universal application is the golden rule enforced...

The golden rule says, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you."

The Law of Universal Application says, "What you dish out to others WILL be dished back to you."

[janderich]

No. In the quote above I was trying to clarify what you were saying and show the error in the concept. Maybe I didn't do a good job? lol. I do not believe in the delayed payment on our part. I believe in the avoiding punishment via proving innocence through repentance. Eventually we cannot prove innocence any more and are subject to the punishment of our sins when we act with knowledge and will...

Amonhi

Here is my understanding. I realize it is not complete but I am happy for what I have learned recently. I think it may accord with what you are saying.


To go contrary to natural law causes suffering, this is sin. God's punishment is simply punishment caused by the natural order of things. There is only one way we can stop suffering, that is to change and obey God's law (ie repent). When we repent the punishment ends. Justice is satisfied. Why? Because God's law is not punitive. It does not require a person to suffer 5 units for lying, and 10 units for stealing. We do not pay 2 units, and then if we repent, Christ is required to pay the balance. Instead, God's law is based on what we deserve. So, when someone has changed they do not deserve to suffer any more. Repentance answers the ends of the law!

What then did Christ do? He took upon him all that we would suffer so that he could know us and show us the way out. He descended below all things so that he could be with us in our depraved state. So that he could be one with us. Then when we turn to God he guides us up and out. If he was not with us we would have already been devils and angels to a devil. Trapped by the law which we had broken. It is by him and through him that we receive the Spirit which lights our way.

[inquirringmind]

If God did not meet our demands, then we would not honor him and he would lose his power which comes from His honor or rather from our ability to honor him.

That sounds like Skousen's Theory:

The main points of Skousen’s theory are:

The universe is composed of two basic building blocks: “intelligences” and “elements”.
“Intelligences” are self-aware entities that are self-existent and at various levels of complexity and progression. They are independent and act voluntarily, and cannot be compelled. God is the greatest of the intelligences, and every human is an intelligence at his core and we rank relatively high on the scale of complexity and greatness.
“Element” is matter, and there are two types of matter: spiritual and physical. They are fundamentally the same but exist on two different planes. Element is not voluntary nor even “alive”, but it is self-existent.
God pairs together every intelligence with a portion of element. They are paired in complex but orderly ways, and they are assigned functions and roles and must abide by the physical laws of the universe. Some intelligences are paired with plant life, others with animal life, and every human is an intelligence which is paired with human “element(s)”. Other intelligences are paired with non-organic element(s).
By pairing intelligences with element God is able to command these intelligence/element unions and accomplish the creation of the universe.
God is “God” only because he is respected and loved by the intelligences of the universe. He derives his authority and power because the intelligences, who are paired with element/matter, decide to obey him. He is just and constant and they trust him. If God loses their trust they may no longer respect and obey him, and he would lose his ability to govern them and would essentially cease to be “God”.

http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2011/ ... atonement/

Tell me, what do you make of that passage (and I'll quote from the Joseph Smith Translation.)

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things; to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36.)

Given Skousen's theory, God "derives his authority and power" from these uncreated intelligences (who give Him their love, respect, and obedience), and without that He wouldn't even be God.

Doesn't that contradict what Paul was implying by these rhetorical questions in Romans 11?

And doesn't it contradict what the book of Mormon (or is it the book of Moses?) says about God giving man his agency?

I mean if these uncreated intelligences are "self-aware entities that are self-existent" and "are independent and act voluntarily, and cannot be compelled," and "God is 'God' only because he is respected and loved by the intelligences of the universe," and "every human is an intelligence at his core," wouldn't "agency" have to be uncreated?

I mean how could God give us our agency if He's only God because we already freely obey Him?

[log]

Agency doesn't mean what you think it means.

[inquirringmind]

Agency doesn't mean what you think it means.

What does it mean?

[log]

Read the linked thread.

[inquirringmind]

Read the linked thread.

I'm doing that now (sorry, I didn't realize there was a link there at first.)

[inquirringmind]

So the devil himself never had agency?

[inquirringmind]

And without the devil God couldn't have given man agency?