We Owe the Brethren Politeness

[Thinker]

We are to work on our own salvation, and not to work on the salvation of our leaders. We need to be wise to see and understand what OUR calling, right and duty is in this great work.

And what is this great work?
Is it to be polite? Is it to pretend evil is good and good is evil?

The great work is the same for each and everyone, but not everyone is called to call the bretheren unto repentance. There is a difference between being called to do so, between simply accusing them and between honsetly questioning things for yourselfe. Some may be called to call them unto repentance, but those who are not called to do so are doing nothing more than to accuse their bretheren.

I know there are things that go wrong within church, I know Denver is right with most of his statements, but until this day I am still called to support the bretheren the best I can. This does not say I agree with everything thats happening, this does not say I don't question things, and it does not even mean that I don't know that certain things should be different, it simply means that this is what I am called to do at this time.

As long as we are not called to act differently we should rather look on the beam that is in our own eye. And we should respect that the Lord may call some people to do one part of the work, and to have others do other parts of the work. Not everyone is called to call our leades unto repentance. And to dicern this is what I ment with being wise. We have to be wise in relying upon the Lord only and to follow his call for US.

I doubt the brethren read this, at least I am not aware of them posting and don't address my posts to them generally. So, I'm not calling the brethren to repentance, but others, including myself.
If you look at my posts, you will see this. And it is a calling, at least if you honor patriarchal blessings.
And this is something I don't enjoy, but feel obligated to do.
There is a tendency to want the praises of others - and to say what is pleasing - that may be more enjoyable, but less honest.

There is also a tendency to pretend that it's not your problem - like the priest and Levite did as they passed the man by in the parable of the good Samaritan.
"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Frankly, it scares me if ANYBODY puts their trust in any fallible person.
What if I was one of the Ute Native American Indians, when Brigham Young ordered the Extermination Order of men, women and children of the Ute tribes?

What if I or someone I loved was one of the almost billion of people starving to death and being robbed of tithes?
Jesus taught that the two greatest commandments are to love God and others as ourselves... "on these two laws hang all of the law and the prophets." Jesus was emphasizing the need to love others over following prophets. When prophets contradict these greatest laws, I will avoid following them in that respect and will warn others as well.

I will never prioritize anybody over God. God is my god. I may respect and learn from others, but I will never unquestioningly follow anybody and I warn against anybody else doing so.
Even Jesus corrected someone when they called him "Good Master" by saying, "None is good, save one, that is God."

[Simon]

People don't know anymore where to find truth, and we similarely can say that people don't know anymore to which source to turn to to find truth..

We have become quiet dependent upon other man.. I feel it is my duty to teach people around me such independance, and to testify of Christ being th only Rock to build upon.

It's a difficult work, but if I was able to influence just one person to thin closer about it, I am filled with great joy ..

[freedomforall]

We follow the truths that the brethren teach....we are NOT following the person.

What if its not "truth"?

Truth is only taught and received by the Spirit. False doctrine will not be witnessed of by the HG. Therefore, we must seek spiritual confirmation of what we hear. However, if someone has an evil disposition the Spirit may not confirm anything, because He does not dwell in unholy temples, especially for someone that doesn't really ask with a sincere heart and honest real intent.
How many times have you heard someone say something and have the HG confirm it on the spot, so that you knew it was true?
And according to scripture no one can say Christ is Lord without the HG witnessing it.

1 Corinthians 12:3
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

When we listen to the brethren we try to listen by the spirit so we can be edified. And, yes, politeness is a good thing.

[freedomforall]

We should have the spirit with us always if we take the sacrament worthily.

Whose spirit? Is Christs spirit the same as the Holy Ghost?

Because I don't want to derail this topic I have started a new thread for these questions HERE.

This topic has already been addressed.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31266" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[freedomforall]

Good to see the conversation starting to move away from openly condemning the leader of His Church “with which I, the Lord, am well pleased”.

It is interesting that after the Lord was well pleased with the Church on November 1, 1831, he said this on September 22, 1832.

D&C 84
49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

One wonders if a church which the Lord has condemned is a church with which he is still "well pleased", remembering this condemnation was repeated by the president of the Church in 1985. One wonders if a condemned church is still "true and living." One wonders if being under condemnation is why the Lord no longer speaks to the body of the Church in his own voice, and has not since January 14, 1847. (D&C 136)

Anyways, who, in this thread, condemned the president of the Church?

What happened to the politeness stuff? No revelation since 1847? Right!

Here check this out for yourself: This is a shortened version from: https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... 9?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doctrine and Covenants and Church History: Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual
Lesson 42: Continuing Revelation to Latter-day Prophets

To show class members that the Lord continues to guide the Church through revelation to latter-day prophets, seers, and revelators.
Preparation

1.
Prayerfully study the following scriptures and other materials:
a. Doctrine and Covenants 1:38; 68:1–4; 84:109–10; 107:25, 34, 93–98; 132:8.
b. Official Declaration 2 (pages 293–94 in the Doctrine and Covenants).
c. Our Heritage, pages 117–19, 125–27.

2.
Review the material for this lesson in the Class Member Study Guide (35686). Plan ways to refer to the material during the lesson.

3.
Ask class members to prepare to summarize the following information from Our Heritage:
a. The information on Church correlation (last paragraph on page 117 through the end of page 118).
b. The account of the revelation extending the blessings of the priesthood to every worthy male member of the Church (pages 125–27).

Tell the following story, which was shared by President Harold B. Lee:

“Elder John A. Widtsoe of the Council of the Twelve once told of a discussion he had with a group of stake officers. In the course of the discussion someone said to him, ‘Brother Widtsoe, how long has it been since the Church received a revelation?’ Brother Widtsoe rubbed his chin thoughtfully and said in reply, ‘Oh, probably since last Thursday’” (Stand Ye in Holy Places [1974], 132–33).

President Spencer W. Kimball declared that the Church continues to be guided by revelation:

“We testify to the world that revelation continues and that the vaults and files of the Church contain these revelations which come month to month and day to day. We testify also that there is, since 1830 when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, and will continue to be, so long as time shall last, a prophet, recognized of God and his people, who will continue to interpret the mind and will of the Lord. …

“Expecting the spectacular, one may not be fully alerted to the constant flow of revealed communication. I say, in the deepest of humility, but also by the power and force of a burning testimony in my soul, that from the prophet of the Restoration to the prophet of our own year, the communication line is unbroken, the authority is continuous, a light, brilliant and penetrating, continues to shine. The sound of the voice of the Lord is a continuous melody and a thunderous appeal. For nearly a century and a half there has been no interruption” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, 115; or Ensign, May 1977, 78).

Emphasize that President Kimball’s statement continues to be true today. The heavens are open, and the Lord continues to reveal His will to latter-day prophets.

Read D&C 1:38 and D&C 68:1–4 with class members. Emphasize that the members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are latter-day prophets, seers, and revelators. They continue to receive revelation to guide the Church. Their direction is “the will of the Lord, … the mind of the Lord, … the word of the Lord, … the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation” (D&C 68:4).
Explain that this lesson discusses a few examples of continuing revelation to guide the Church.

1. Church correlation

The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve oversee correlation in the Church. Correlation includes:

a. Maintaining purity of doctrine.
b. Emphasizing the importance of the family and the home.
c. Placing all the work of the Church under priesthood direction.
d. Establishing proper relationships among the organizations of the Church.
e. Achieving unity and order in the Church.
f. Ensuring simplicity of Church programs and materials.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve said that correlation is a process “in which we take all the programs of the Church, bring them to one focal point, wrap them in one package, operate them as one program, involve all members of the Church in the operation—and do it all under priesthood direction” (Let Every Man Learn His Duty [pamphlet, 1976], 2).


Revelation extending the blessings of the priesthood to every worthy male member of the Church

Explain that in June 1978, President Spencer W. Kimball announced a revelation that extended the blessings of the priesthood to every worthy male member of the Church. Ask the assigned class member to summarize the account of this revelation from Our Heritage, pages 125–27.
What can we learn from the process President Kimball went through before receiving this revelation? (See Our Heritage, page 126.)

Publication of new Latter-day Saint editions of the scriptures

Explain that in 1979, after years of careful work under the direction of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, the Church published a Latter-day Saint edition of the Bible. This edition of the Bible has the same text as the King James Version, but it includes special study aids, such as the Topical Guide, the Bible Dictionary, and footnotes referring to passages in other books of scripture and to excerpts from Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible.

In 1981, the Church published a new edition of the triple combination (the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price in a single volume), with expanded footnotes and index entries.
Read Ezekiel 37:15–19 with class members. Explain that “the stick of Judah” is the Bible and “the stick of Ephraim” is the Book of Mormon. How do the new editions of the scriptures help the Bible and Book of Mormon become “one in [your] hand”?

Explain that many footnotes in the Bible refer to scriptures in the Book of Mormon, and many footnotes in the Book of Mormon refer to scriptures in the Bible. Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve observed: “The stick or record of Judah—the Old Testament and the New Testament—and the stick or record of Ephraim—the Book of Mormon, which is another testament of Jesus Christ—are now woven together in such a way that as you pore over one you are drawn to the other; as you learn from one you are enlightened by the other. They are indeed one in our hands” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1982, 75; or Ensign, Nov. 1982, 53).

Take a few minutes to show class members the study aids in the Latter-day Saint editions of the scriptures (you may want to use the second additional teaching idea). Then ask the following questions:
In what ways have you used the study aids in the scriptures? How have these resources helped you in your scripture study? In what ways do you think the Church has been blessed because of the Latter-day Saint editions of the scriptures?

Soon after these scriptures were printed, Elder Boyd K. Packer prophesied: “With the passing of years, these scriptures will produce successive generations of faithful Christians who know the Lord Jesus Christ and are disposed to obey His will. … The revelations will be opened to them as to no other [generation] in the history of the world. Into their hands now are placed the sticks of Joseph and of Judah. They will develop a gospel scholarship beyond that which their forebears could achieve. They will have the testimony that Jesus is the Christ and be competent to proclaim Him and to defend Him” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1982, 75; or Ensign, Nov. 1982, 53).

In the April 1995 general conference, President Gordon B. Hinckley made an observation that shows that Elder Packer’s words are being fulfilled: “I look back to my own youth. Neither young men nor young women were doing much scripture reading at that time. What a marvelous change has been wrought. A new generation is arising who are familiar with the word of the Lord” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1995, 117; or Ensign, May 1995, 87).

Additional Quorums of the Seventy

Explain that as the Church has grown, the Lord has revealed how general Church administration should change to meet the needs of members all over the world. These changes have been especially evident in the organization of additional Quorums of the Seventy.

Explain that for many years there were only seven General Authorities of the Church who served as Seventies. They made up the First Council of the Seventy. In 1975, others were called; they served in the First Quorum of the Seventy. Further expansion came in 1989, when a Second Quorum of the Seventy was added.

In April 1995, President Gordon B. Hinckley announced the calling of new local officers, called Area Authorities, who would serve for a period of about six years. (See Conference Report, Apr. 1995, 71–72; or Ensign, May 1995, 52.)

In 1997, President Hinckley announced that Area Authorities would be ordained Seventies and would form the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Quorums of the Seventy. Unlike Seventies who serve as General Authorities, Area Authority Seventies serve in the areas in which they live and continue in their present employment. (See Conference Report, Apr. 1997, 4–5; or Ensign, May 1997, 5–6.)

Concerning the creation of additional Quorums of the Seventy, President Hinckley said: “With these respective quorums in place, we have established a pattern under which the Church may grow to any size with an organization of Area Presidencies and Area Authority Seventies, chosen and working across the world according to need. Now, the Lord is watching over His kingdom. He is inspiring its leadership to care for its ever growing membership” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1997, 5; or Ensign, May 1997, 6).

Conclusion

If you did not use the attention activity, read the statement by President Spencer W. Kimball on pages 243–44. Give particular attention to President Kimball’s testimony that “the sound of the voice of the Lord [to His prophets] is a continuous melody and a thunderous appeal.” Express your gratitude for the Lord’s guidance through latter-day prophets.

[freedomforall]

The best example I can think of is Christ himselfe. When he was born, there were scirptures, priests, prophets and even temples. The Jews were te chosen people of God, and so they saw themselves. They were convinced they made everything right before God. Christ came to them as a stranger, and told them the truth. He called them unto repentance. But they rejected him.

Similarely it was with Lehi... He also preached to the Jews, they also were convinced of doing everything right. But at that time the Lord called many prophets that called them unto repentance...

We also have the example of Samuel the Lamanite, who had to call the Nephites unto repentance.. but they would not harken..

As soon as a people, beliefsystem or religion departs from the right way, the Lord will call them unto repentance first. So, if our leaders WOULD depart from the rigt way, we would find somewhere true messangers speaking out warnings..

But this is just my personal view of this...

The Jews were without a prophet during the time of Christ. Before Christ, they were cast out of their midst and stoned.

I guess my point is: In every instance, the Lord's chosen prophets have always been dealt with through the Lord Himself. Can you think of an example where a prophet departed from the right way and needed to be called to repentance from someone other than the Lord?

Yes, in Numbers 22 an a-s-s rebuked a prophet.

27 And when the a-s-s saw the angel of the Lord, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam’s anger was kindled, and he smote the a-s-s with a staff.
28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the a-s-s, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
29 And Balaam said unto the a-s-s, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
30 And the a-s-s said unto Balaam, Am not I thine a-s-s, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.

Surprise!

BTW, changing the word to donkey is wresting the scriptures. :))

[freedomforall]

For him to be right that prophets are always dealt with by the Lord, and never by anyone that is not the Lord, one of them has to be a false prophet.

See?

Log, log, log... *shakes head* No, my brother, no. Just no.

How I measure a true prophet from a false prophet in this chapter:

the old man "LIED". Yeah, didn't you read that word? I'm sure you did! If not, you can go back and read it again. So the dude LIIIIEEED when he said the Lord and His angels told him to say the things he said.

I'm not the one trying to fit the scriptures into something it's not. It's you.

Case. Closed.



Chapter 13
Jeroboam is smitten and then healed by a prophet from Judah—The prophet delivers his message, is led astray by a prophet from Bethel, and is slain by a lion for his disobedience—Jeroboam continues false worship in Israel.

1 And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the Lord unto Beth-el: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.

2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the Lord, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the Lord; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the ahigh places that burn incense upon thee, and men’s bones shall be bburnt upon thee.

3 And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which the Lord hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be arent, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out.

4 And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Beth-el, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him.

5 The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the Lord.

6 And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Entreat now the face of the Lord thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the Lord, and the king’s hand was restored him again, and became as it was before.

7 And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.

8 And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:

9 For so was it charged me by the word of the Lord, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.

10 So he went another way, and returned not by the way that he came to Beth-el.

11 ¶Now there dwelt an old prophet in Beth-el; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Beth-el: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.

12 And their father said unto them, What way went he? For his sons had seen what way the man of God went, which came from Judah.

13 And he said unto his sons, Saddle me the donkey. So they saddled him the donkey: and he rode thereon,

14 And went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak: and he said unto him, Art thou the man of God that camest from Judah? And he said, I am.

15 Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.

16 And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:

17 For it was said to me by the word of the Lord, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.

18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an aangel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and bdrink water. But he lied unto him.

19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.

20 ¶And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the Lord came unto the prophet that brought him back:

21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast adisobeyed the mouth of the Lord, and hast not kept the commandment which the Lord thy God commanded thee,

22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the Lord did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

23 ¶And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the donkey, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.

24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the donkey stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

25 And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.

26 And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the Lord: therefore the Lord hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake unto him.

27 And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the donkey. And they saddled him.

28 And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the donkey and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the donkey.

29 And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the donkey, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him.

30 And he laid his carcase in his own agrave; and they mourned over him, saying, Alas, my brother!

31 And it came to pass, after he had buried him, that he spake to his sons, saying, When I am dead, then bury me in the sepulchre wherein the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones:

32 For the saying which he cried by the word of the Lord against the altar in Beth-el, and against all the houses of the high places which are in the cities of Samaria, shall surely come to pass.

33 ¶After this thing Jeroboam returned not from his evil way, but made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places.

34 And this thing became asin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth.

Caution: do not count on Log agreeing with anything that does not fit his paradigm, no matter how hard you try. Yes, one of the prophets is a false one. But, hey, some people just don't understand plain English. Always expect an argument and belittling. It's hard to tell a speeding train that there is a ravine up the way and the track has been destroyed. The train keeps right on going.

[freedomforall]

Nephi lied too...

And I spake unto him as if it had been Laban.

Read the heading again. Does the words "led astray by a prophet" mean anything to you?

Chapter 13
Jeroboam is smitten and then healed by a prophet from Judah—The prophet delivers his message, is led astray by a prophet from Bethel, and is slain by a lion for his disobedience—Jeroboam continues false worship in Israel.

And because he heeded the words of the so-called prophet, he was later slain for disobedience.
jeroboam is healed by a prophet from Judah
The prophet in Bethel is false, otherwise he would have known the true purpose of the other prophet and would not have lied to him.

[freedomforall]

Food for thought. The JST transaltion says lied not.

cannot be true... you used the wrong damn color!

Well now we see your true colors. Swearing is not allowed on the forum, unless that is a lie.

[freedomforall]

Food for thought. The JST transaltion says lied not.

If the prophet lied not, then why was the man of God killed by the lion? Maybe the JST wasn't completed for publication??

So the question for me is, did God tell the prophet to lie to the man of God, or did the prophet lie of his own accord? To me, it seems like the prophet was testing him--will he follow the word of God or the words of a man? And he failed the test.

Ya, being killed by a lion for disobedience must send some kind of message.

[Simon]

Chapter 13

18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.[/quote]

What excactly did the prophet lie about?
That he was a prophet ? That an angel spoke to him ? Or just that he was commanded by that angel to call him back to eat bread with him ?

We know he did not lie about being a prophet of God. We can asume that he may not even have lied about an angel that apeared unto him,the only thing he may have lied about was the message delivered.

Either the Lord commanded him to do so, or it was at least approved by the Lord. This becomes clear by the word of the Lord that comes unto that old prophet right after the other disobeyed. If he obeyed the Lord, he was not lieying, but obeying. If he did by his own, he at least did so for an inspred reason.

Of course we can not say that it happened that way from these scriptures alone, but one should ask, why in all the world would that old prophet have any personal interest in doing such a thing?

I believe he was commanded by God to do so. He had the authority to act this way, otherwise he could not have said these words after the event happened:

"Thus saith the Lord"...

He even prophesied:

"thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers"

[freedomforall]

Log, log, log... *shakes head* No, my brother, no. Just no.

How I measure a true prophet from a false prophet in this chapter:

the old man "LIED". Yeah, didn't you read that word? I'm sure you did! If not, you can go back and read it again. So the dude LIIIIEEED when he said the Lord and His angels told him to say the things he said.

Case. Closed.

Joseph lied about polygamy.

Case. Closed.

How do we know that Joseph lied about polygamy?

Because log said so. No further research needed. Just like him saying there hasn't been any revelations to the church since 1847. There may be a lot, say, around five people, that back him. That's a massive amount of corroboration, if you ask me.
I proved him wrong but don't let him know it. I have found that with him "proof" goes "poof!" =))
Somehow I thought this thread was supposed to be about politeness to church leaders. Am I wrong? Gee!

[freedomforall]

Chapter 13

18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

What excactly did the prophet lie about? That he was a propeht ? That an angel spoke to him ? Or just that he was commanded by that angel to call him back to eat bread with him ?

We know he did not lie about being a prophet of God. We have to asume that he my not even have lied about an angel that apeareing to him, because right after the other prophet disobeyed, the word of the Lord came again unto that old prophet.

The only thing he may have lied about was the message delivered. But, if we asume he was a true prophet, and an angel appeared to him with the command to "try the other prophet", it would not count a lie before God, but would count as fulfilling God's command.

Either the Lord commanded him to do so, or it was at least approved by the Lord. This becomes clear by the word of the Lord that comes unto that old prophet right after the other disobeyed.

Of course we can not say that it happened that way from these scriptures alone, but one should ask, why in all the world would that old prophet have any personal interest in doing such a thing?

I believe he was commanded by God to do so. He had the authority to act this way, otherwise he could not have said these words after the event happened:

"Thus saith the Lord"...

He even prophesied:

"thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers"

Don't you think that being killed by a lion for disobedience says something? No matter what the lie was, dead is dead no matter how we slice it.

[Simon]

Chapter 13

18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

What excactly did the prophet lie about? That he was a propeht ? That an angel spoke to him ? Or just that he was commanded by that angel to call him back to eat bread with him ?

We know he did not lie about being a prophet of God. We have to asume that he my not even have lied about an angel that apeareing to him, because right after the other prophet disobeyed, the word of the Lord came again unto that old prophet.

The only thing he may have lied about was the message delivered. But, if we asume he was a true prophet, and an angel appeared to him with the command to "try the other prophet", it would not count a lie before God, but would count as fulfilling God's command.

Either the Lord commanded him to do so, or it was at least approved by the Lord. This becomes clear by the word of the Lord that comes unto that old prophet right after the other disobeyed.

Of course we can not say that it happened that way from these scriptures alone, but one should ask, why in all the world would that old prophet have any personal interest in doing such a thing?

I believe he was commanded by God to do so. He had the authority to act this way, otherwise he could not have said these words after the event happened:

"Thus saith the Lord"...

He even prophesied:

"thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers"

Don't you think that being killed by a lion for disobedience says something? No matter what the lie was, dead is dead no matter how we slice it.

The one who lied was not the one who got killed, but the one who disobeyed the Lord..

It says a lot therefore, it says to not disobey the Lord..

But the question I was trying to answer was wether that old prophet was truely lieyng to the young prophet, or wether he was merely obeying the Lord. No matter why the old prophet did what he did, it was approved by the Lord, and therefore I tend to believe that he was not dishonest, but merely obedient.

It was a lie indeed, a lie that the young prophet would have dicerned easily if he had trustet and obeyed the Lords words.

[Lilli]

We must remember that we are not really sure the story about the 2 prophets really ever happened, or if it did if it was translated correctly. The more you study the way the Bible came to be, the more you realize that many false stories could have been added and many true stories could have been distorted or changed.

[Lilli]

Charity thinketh no evil - those who have charity do not ponder evil things in their hearts, neither do they attribute evil motivations to others.

I think that that verse means those who have Charity will not have evil thoughts or desires, I don't think it means they won't righteously judge others and see their error and evil.

If what you say is true then Joseph Smith didn't have Charity, for he certainly had no problem publicly calling evil evil, even when it was done by men in the highest church positions, like John Bennett.

[SpeedRacer]

Interesting thread.

Back toward the first page there was some interesting speak on whether we should follow bindly.

The example of Christ speaking to Peter about revelation should establish the truth. In essense he said to Peter, do not believe in a thing I say unless it is confirmed through the spirit. This is Jesus, the Father and the Son, the Christ, the creator of heaven and earth saying DO NOT TAKE MY WORD, only as the spirit confirms it, we should not make an except for anyone else.

When He says by my word, or the word of my prophets, he is clearly intending that His prophets will speak by the power of the Holy Ghost through the spirit. It is up to you to be open to the revelation like Peter, or to reject it through some dam you have built to keep out the word of God.

So when you go to general conference, you should go with the spirit as your guide, waiting for confirmation of any and all words that are spoken. Then you will know if they are the words of the Lord through His messengers. And in this manner you will never be decieved.

Of course you have to shake of that veil of unbelief.

What was it Gad related, the catholics put forth an unfallable pope, but they don't believe it, we put forth a fallable 15 and we don't believe it?

Love casteth out all fear.

[Thinker]

People don't know anymore where to find truth, and we similarely can say that people don't know anymore to which source to turn to to find truth..

We have become quiet dependent upon other man.. I feel it is my duty to teach people around me such independance, and to testify of Christ being th only Rock to build upon.

It's a difficult work, but if I was able to influence just one person to thin closer about it, I am filled with great joy ..

That's great, Simon.

I feel similarly, but I acknowledge, as you may have been implying, that truth is not something "out there" to discover, but rather a process of what is, and the potential found in eternal progress. For the most part, it's a inner process ("the kingdom/experience of God is within you, as Jesus taught)... which then affects relations with others and this world. I believe and feel and live by my affiliation, that the LDS church is the most practical application of spirituality on this earth (besides maybe yoga which is more personal & less social)...Still, religion generally is group thought - depending on others for what only one can do for oneself - feel the spirit and learn to exercise free agency by thought, feeling and action.

I also want to influence even just one person - even if that is me!