We Owe the Brethren Politeness

[log]

The Golden Rule does not allow exceptions for those whom we esteem to be corrupt, or even evil. We know that no man likes having evil motives imputed to them. Charity thinketh no evil - those who have charity do not ponder evil things in their hearts, neither do they attribute evil motivations to others. Their judgement rests with the Lord. Indeed, I know of no saint - they who are possessed of the Holy Spirit, and are one in God, being filled with charity - who speaks evil of the Brethren, or who imputes anything less than pure motives to them; after all, because they are pure, holy, and filled with light and love, so they view everyone.

Titus 1:15-16
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Matthew 12
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Doctrine and Covenants 121:16
16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

Therefore, we had ought to be wiser in how we speak of those whom the Lord has called to serve in the Church.

[Hippophibia]

As quoted in other topic

Throughout the scriptures there are numerous examples of people who said we have the word of God (scriptures) we don't need the current prophets.
The Jews said the same thing to Jesus. - I have seen it played out a thousand time in the church as an excuse not to follow the Bishop/Stake President/Prophet and cling to their sins and interpret the scriptures to suit their needs. It has been going on since the beginning.

When Jesus established his church in the earth prior to his death he appointed Peter the head of the church and told him that upon this rock (revelation) will the church be established. The church is established by rock of revelation to the current prophets and apostles etc. If they are false and there is no revelation there is no church. If people tell me the Prophet has sinned I tell them to pack there bags and find another church or establish there own church.

Why because you blaspheme the very throne of God indicating that he has allowed his servants to become corrupt and he is going to destroy the world because the people did not listen to his corrupt servants.........

[Hippophibia]

Thinking from a worldly point of view, my father (not religious and I was not brought up in the church) would always say when we did something wrong and blamed it on someone else he would say "If they told you to jump in a fire would you do it" - errh no was the answer.

Now when a prophet/apostle/stake pres/bishop etc of God is called, I only pray/meditate about the calling once and when I am happy they are called of God then no further questions are asked and if they tell me to jump in a fire I would jump in the fire, even if I got burnt it would be accounted for righteousness. One needs to live by faith and not question everything one is asked to do.
The covenant in the temple is no evil speaking of the Lords Anointed - there is no excuse.

Hypothetical situation
You might be watching the news in the end of days and the headline are Russia and USA have signed a peace treaty of cooperation, then then a stake president/bishop/home teacher knocks on your door and tells you we have to evacuate as there is disaster heading our way. If one is in the habit of second guessing everything it will be like I have a family birthday party organised tomorrow - anyway the news is saying there is peace what is this nonsense all about the leaders are all corrupt anyway.
You will end up not going and getting nuked!!

Don’t expect the spirit to guide you - the only guidance you will get is to obey the messenger!!

[Simon]

Log, these are great points, and I think we really need to think about this a little deeper.

I believe that if the bretheren, theoreticaly, would loose their connection to heaven and teach doctrine that is false, then God may in deed call other prophets to call them unto repentance. He has often called prophets that warned for years, and he has done so often within the scriptures. The thing is, if God would call such prophets, they would have a sure commandment from the Lord directly to do so, and they would have to do it, wether they like it or not.

The main problem I see is that once such a prophet would stand up and call the bretheren unto repentance, there would arise many "followers" of that new prophet that would start teaching against the bretheren without being called of God to do so. And this is where the difference is. These "prophets" would fulfill their calling, and their "followers" would mostly only fulfill their own agenda, they would accuse their bretheren without any authority and bring condemnation upon themselves.

We are to work on our own salvation, and not to work on the salvation of our leaders. We need to be wise to see and understand what OUR calling, right and duty is in this great work.

[Thinker]

We OWE God, our devotion, even if it means telling "ugly truths" of the actions of "The" Brethren.
Jesus didn't put himself above all - sit up on higher, nicer seats for all to be admired politely - nor did his disciples.
Jesus didn't act as if he "owed" thePharasees politeness. He spoke the truth and "let the consequence follow."
The leaders today, remind me of Pharasees then.
When they stop stealing from members and the poor, and begin obeying at least the lower law of tithing - in Deut 14:28-29 - they will deserve respect. But those who act in disrespectful ways to others, do NOT deserve respect for their actions.

However, I do respect the good the leaders say - about standing up for marriage between a man and a woman, keeping high standards morally, etc. But I wish they would walk the talk, in their handling of sacred fund$.

There comes a time to "put off childish things" and realize that how you experience God and the spirit, is personal - and does NOT depend on any "authority." No doubt, we each have jobs to do - and some realize spiritual callings, but nobody is ruler over another - that is unrighteous dominion and counter to how God works.

We are to work on our own salvation, and not to work on the salvation of our leaders. We need to be wise to see and understand what OUR calling, right and duty is in this great work.

And what is this great work?
Is it to be polite? Is it to pretend evil is good and good is evil?

Last night, for FHE, we discussed the importance of honoring God, above all.
If we honor others, we will fail because they will fail - it is inevitable since nobody's perfect.
The great work we have is to worship and prioritize God (who is love/striving for what is God's will) - even if it involves being impolite.

[Simon]

We are to work on our own salvation, and not to work on the salvation of our leaders. We need to be wise to see and understand what OUR calling, right and duty is in this great work.

And what is this great work?
Is it to be polite? Is it to pretend evil is good and good is evil?

The great work is the same for each and everyone, but not everyone is called to call the bretheren unto repentance. There is a difference between being called to do so, between simply accusing them and between honsetly questioning things for yourselfe. Some may be called to call them unto repentance, but those who are not called to do so are doing nothing more than to accuse their bretheren.

I know there are things that go wrong within church, I know Denver is right with most of his statements, but until this day I am still called to support the bretheren the best I can. This does not say I agree with everything thats happening, this does not say I don't question things, and it does not even mean that I don't know that certain things should be different, it simply means that this is what I am called to do at this time.

As long as we are not called to act differently we should rather look on the beam that is in our own eye. And we should respect that the Lord may call some people to do one part of the work, and to have others do other parts of the work. Not everyone is called to call our leades unto repentance. And to dicern this is what I ment with being wise. We have to be wise in relying upon the Lord only and to follow his call for US.

[log]

As quoted in other topic

Throughout the scriptures there are numerous examples of people who said we have the word of God (scriptures) we don't need the current prophets.

Yes, you were off-topic in the other thread, just as you are in this one, too.

Now when a prophet/apostle/stake pres/bishop etc of God is called, I only pray/meditate about the calling once and when I am happy they are called of God then no further questions are asked and if they tell me to jump in a fire I would jump in the fire, even if I got burnt it would be accounted for righteousness.

I am truly sorry you feel that way. I would suggest reading this: http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/ ... nking-done" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this.

"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." - (Brigham Young, presented in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853, found in Journal of Discourses, 1:312)

[Amonhi]

As quoted in other topic

Throughout the scriptures there are numerous examples of people who said we have the word of God (scriptures) we don't need the current prophets.
The Jews said the same thing to Jesus. - I have seen it played out a thousand time in the church as an excuse not to follow the Bishop/Stake President/Prophet and cling to their sins and interpret the scriptures to suit their needs. It has been going on since the beginning.

When Jesus established his church in the earth prior to his death he appointed Peter the head of the church and told him that upon this rock (revelation) will the church be established. The church is established by rock of revelation to the current prophets and apostles etc. If they are false and there is no revelation there is no church. If people tell me the Prophet has sinned I tell them to pack there bags and find another church or establish there own church.

Why because you blaspheme the very throne of God indicating that he has allowed his servants to become corrupt and he is going to destroy the world because the people did not listen to his corrupt servants.........

hmmm, yeah I disagree in BIG ways. The church is establish on the rock of personal revelation to each member individually. If it was not, then it would be like every other church that teaches the leaders are inspired but the members are not. This is one reason we are all continually told to seek our own revelation to know if the Prophet/President is teaching the right things. Remember what Christ said to Peter,

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of chell shall not prevail against it.

The point is that Flesh and blood did not reveal the truth to "Simon" but God did through the spirit which we are told will "teach us ALL things". So because "Simon" had built on the true rock of personal revelation he had become a pillar or rock of himself, as does anyone who builds of the rock. So, Christ changed his name to "Peter" = rock. Upon the rock of personal revelation with every member knowing from God Himself, and not by flesh and blood will Christ build his church. This also goes in line with the many other scriptures and principles of the gospel like the oil lamps where the virgins who did not have their own oil and could not light their own lamps were not able to rely on the light/oil/lamps of others (prophets). And like this verse that says that Men (prophets) should not counsel their fellow men, neither should we listen to their counsel and put our trust in the arm of flesh (living prophets) but that we should all know the Lord for ourselves not by flesh and blood by our Father which is in heaven, from the least to the greatest.

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; - D&C 1:17-20

If every man is indeed speaking for in the name of God, and this is a good thing, the goal in fact of the D&C, then building a church on prophets and apostles who receive revelation for the church of members who follow and obey will never reach that goal.

We do not become rocks ourselves or founded on the rock by following the revelations of others. A major part of "The Good News" is that we do not have to rely on some other man to know for ourselves what God wants of us, or for truth. We are enabled to go to God directly. The church of the Firstborn is structured perfectly with each individual who is a prophet that goes directly to God with no middle men. That is the goal.

If and when our Prophets/Presidents error in doctrine, principle or even sin, we are not bound to believe, follow or act like them. They are only men. They are still fallible. There are countless examples that can be proven where a prophet did something wrong. Even Joseph Smith was rebuked by the Lord on a number of occasions for his errors which are recorded in the D&C and church history. It doesn't mean the church is false or fallen or even that the prophet is false or fallen. It only means that they are progressing, learning and growing like we ourselves are.

I think I could cite evidence after evidence for an entire book on this topic, both the rock on which we need to build as well as Prophets erroring in some thing or other, contradicting each other, discrediting other Prophets teachings, teaching false doctrine, etc...

I have shown a few examples of Prophets erroring in this thread, HERE, and have an open invitation for someone/anyone/you to show me reasonable evidence that says President Joseph F. Smith and Elder Ballard and Brigham Young per my examples did not error, teach false doctrine/lies use Evil/Satanic motivational techniques to illicit followers, and the 30 points I made showing that the leaders or our church are in very deed able to make mistakes that members think they can't. I also explain why this doesn't matter.

I welcome you insight on that thread. If you want additional evidences that our leaders are subject tot he flaws of mortality just as you and I are, please ask in that other thread. I have so much concrete provable evidence/facts it would make your head spin.

Also, btw, blaspheme is to dethrone God by putting someone else in his place. For example, to put a prophet as our highest authority is to dethrone God and put a prophet in his place. To say that the prophet is greater than the Holy Ghost in our lives is to dethrone God who's voice is the Holy Ghost, and place a prophet on his throne. That is blasphemy. Making the servant to act as the Master rather than the servant to point to the master is blasphemy. Specifically when placing a man up to be a god over others... This is why Jesus was accused of blasphemy.

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? - John 10:33-34

Not intending to be offensive, but bold and clear. With great respect, Hippophibia,
Amonhi

[log]

Log, these are great points, and I think we really need to think about this a little deeper.

I believe that if the bretheren, theoreticaly, would loose their connection to heaven and teach doctrine that is false, then God may in deed call other prophets to call them unto repentance. He has often called prophets that warned for years, and he has done so often within the scriptures. The thing is, if God would call such prophets, they would have a sure commandment from the Lord directly to do so, and they would have to do it, wether they like it or not.

The main problem I see is that once such a prophet would stand up and call the bretheren unto repentance, there would arise many "followers" of that new prophet that would start teaching against the bretheren without being called of God to do so. And this is where the difference is. These "prophets" would fulfill their calling, and their "followers" would mostly only fulfill their own agenda, they would accuse their bretheren without any authority and bring condemnation upon themselves.

That does seem to be an apparent problem, actually.

We are to work on our own salvation, and not to work on the salvation of our leaders. We need to be wise to see and understand what OUR calling, right and duty is in this great work.

I cannot fault a thing you have said.

[Jeremy]

Who do we not "owe" politeness?

[Amonhi]

Now when a prophet/apostle/stake pres/bishop etc of God is called, I only pray/meditate about the calling once and when I am happy they are called of God then no further questions are asked and if they tell me to jump in a fire I would jump in the fire, even if I got burnt it would be accounted for righteousness. One needs to live by faith and not question everything one is asked to do.

I do not mean to be offensive, Hippophibia, but this is a perfect example of blind obedience which will never get you to the CK or to be crowned a God. I personally don't even give God that much of my agency, let alone one of His prophets. Brigahm Young was speaking specifically to you when he said,

"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." - (Brigham Young, presented in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853, found in Journal of Discourses, 1:312)

The covenant in the temple is no evil speaking of the Lords Anointed - there is no excuse.

Will someone please define what evil speaking of the brethren is? Does it mean we disagree with them, call them names, say we could do a better job, find that they teach false doctrine or contradict each other? Will someone please give us a starting point to discuss what it means to speak evil of others, not just the brethren as I see no place in scripture that says we should be a respecter of persons and treat one person better than another. What does speaking evil of others mean?

Hypothetical situation
You might be watching the news in the end of days and the headline are Russia and USA have signed a peace treaty of cooperation, then then a stake president/bishop/home teacher knocks on your door and tells you we have to evacuate as there is disaster heading our way. If one is in the habit of second guessing everything it will be like I have a family birthday party organised tomorrow - anyway the news is saying there is peace what is this nonsense all about the leaders are all corrupt anyway.
You will end up not going and getting nuked!!

There are times where a quick response is in order, but you still question you leaders as you are taking action, paying attention to the spirit, etc. Fortunately, for the vast majority of our experiences we are not being asked to take immediate life saving action. We are given plenty of time to study it out in our own minds and go to the Lord to teach us, guide us and confirm or deny the instructions we are given.

Don’t expect the spirit to guide you - the only guidance you will get is to obey the messenger!!

Ok, so, um, can you give ANY references be they ensign articles, scriptures manuals, or anything authorized by the LDS church that teaches such extremes? Or are you claiming personal revelation not current church doctrine? Did you make this up? I am at a loss here...

With the deepest respect, I cannot agree with you.
Amonhi

[Simon]

Log, these are great points, and I think we really need to think about this a little deeper.

I believe that if the bretheren, theoreticaly, would loose their connection to heaven and teach doctrine that is false, then God may in deed call other prophets to call them unto repentance. He has often called prophets that warned for years, and he has done so often within the scriptures. The thing is, if God would call such prophets, they would have a sure commandment from the Lord directly to do so, and they would have to do it, wether they like it or not.

The main problem I see is that once such a prophet would stand up and call the bretheren unto repentance, there would arise many "followers" of that new prophet that would start teaching against the bretheren without being called of God to do so. And this is where the difference is. These "prophets" would fulfill their calling, and their "followers" would mostly only fulfill their own agenda, they would accuse their bretheren without any authority and bring condemnation upon themselves.

That does seem to be an apparent problem, actually.

We are to work on our own salvation, and not to work on the salvation of our leaders. We need to be wise to see and understand what OUR calling, right and duty is in this great work.

I cannot fault a thing you have said.

My impression is that many that are so harsh agaist the bretheren do so because they "worship" the opportunity to let their own personal, negative feelings out. In that case it's not about the work of the Lord, it's not about the deep desire to have it all the way the Lord wants it, it's more about their own imperfections and failings.

I do not say there are not people that are called to do this work, I do not say we should not question things.. we have the right to do so. The Lord never wants us to pretend or to lie about how things truely are... he simply want's us to do his will at all times. If we feel called to accuse the bretheren when the Lord has not told us to do so, we will receive the same judgement we have used on them at the last day. Doing things because of an personal agenda will not just condenm us because of that, but also because we would hinder the Lords work.

[Simon]

Who do we not "owe" politeness?

Those few words really say it all

[Amonhi]

I know there are things that go wrong within church, I know Denver is right with most of his statements, but until this day I am still called to support the bretheren the best I can. This does not say I agree with everything thats happening, this does not say I don't question things, and it does not even mean that I don't know that certain things should be different, it simply means that this is what I am called to do at this time.

As long as we are not called to act differently we should rather look on the beam that is in our own eye. And we should respect that the Lord may call some people to do one part of the work, and to have others do other parts of the work. Not everyone is called to call our leades unto repentance. And to dicern this is what I ment with being wise. We have to be wise in relying upon the Lord only and to follow his call for US.

You make good points Simon...

[Amonhi]

Who do we not "owe" politeness?

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymhug:

[log]

Will someone please define what evil speaking of the brethren is?

I think this is the clearest possible definition.

Doctrine and Covenants 121:16
16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

[log]

My impression is that many that are so harsh agaist the bretheren do so because they "worship" the opportunity to let their own personal, negative feelings out. In that case it's not about the work of the Lord, it's not about the deep desire to have it all the way the Lord wants it, it's more about their own imperfections and failings.

If we feel called to accuse the bretheren when the Lord has not told us to do so, we will receive the same judgement we have used on them at the last day. Doing things because of an personal agenda will not just condenm us because of that, but also because we would hinder the Lords work.

I must agree.

[natasha]

We OWE God, our devotion, even if it means telling "ugly truths" of the actions of "The" Brethren.
Jesus didn't put himself above all - sit up on higher, nicer seats for all to be admired politely - nor did his disciples.
Jesus didn't act as if he "owed" thePharasees politeness. He spoke the truth and "let the consequence follow."
The leaders today, remind me of Pharasees then.
When they stop stealing from members and the poor, and begin obeying at least the lower law of tithing - in Deut 14:28-29 - they will deserve respect. But those who act in disrespectful ways to others, do NOT deserve respect for their actions.

However, I do respect the good the leaders say - about standing up for marriage between a man and a woman, keeping high standards morally, etc. But I wish they would walk the talk, in their handling of sacred fund$.

There comes a time to "put off childish things" and realize that how you experience God and the spirit, is personal - and does NOT depend on any "authority." No doubt, we each have jobs to do - and some realize spiritual callings, but nobody is ruler over another - that is unrighteous dominion and counter to how God works.

We are to work on our own salvation, and not to work on the salvation of our leaders. We need to be wise to see and understand what OUR calling, right and duty is in this great work.

And what is this great work?
Is it to be polite? Is it to pretend evil is good and good is evil?

Last night, for FHE, we discussed the importance of honoring God, above all.
If we honor others, we will fail because they will fail - it is inevitable since nobody's perfect.
The great work we have is to worship and prioritize God (who is love/striving for what is God's will) - even if it involves being impolite.

I don't believe for one minute that even though someone is imperfect...they will fail....they may or may not. I believe that imperfect men can teach perfect truth. We follow the truths that the brethren teach....we are NOT following the person.

[Jeremy]

We follow the truths that the brethren teach....we are NOT following the person.

What if its not "truth"?

[Simon]

I don't believe for one minute that even though someone is imperfect...they will fail....they may or may not. I believe that imperfect men can teach perfect truth. We follow the truths that the brethren teach....we are NOT following the person.

How true.. We have not faith on our leaders, but we have faith in truth they teach. We must only have faith in the words of truth that come THROUGH them, and by doing so we follow the author of truth, THE WORD, Jesus Christ. It is actually my experience that the Lord most often uses those people to teach us that have some of the greates weaknesses, according to our worldly view of things. This should never keep us from recognizing his voice, and we will only recognize his voice when WE have taken his name upon us.. This way we will know him, and this way we will recognize his voice when it calls us, whereever it may come from.

[Amonhi]

I don't believe for one minute that even though someone is imperfect...they will fail....they may or may not. I believe that imperfect men can teach perfect truth. We follow the truths that the brethren teach....we are NOT following the person.

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: Well said!!

[Hippophibia]

You say we should follow God only - but we hear the voice of the Lord through his servants.

D&C 1:38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

Sure the HG manifest the truth of everything they (Lords Anointed) say and shows us how it can be applied in our lives and how to accomplish the things required of us. We should have the spirit with us always if we take the sacrament worthily.

One places ones trust in the voice of the Lords/Anointed not in the individual. We have 50 hours of General conference twice a year that is a lot of the voice of the Lord we receive, not to mention revelation to local leaders. The rock of the church is based on revelation to the leaders of the church. Without that there is no Church, if every man receives his own interpretation of the scriptures relating to the salvation of man there is no need for a church.

Politeness - I think it is time to preach not to openly accuse and judge the nations - that is soon to come. It is the hastening, don’t look for temporal salvation as the Jews and try and force Jesus to take up arms and overthrow the Romans. Don’t claim to know the mind and will of God and condemn his servants.

Alma 31:5 And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.

[Hippophibia]

Beware!! The first sign of apostasy is always a rejection of the "Revelation" on which the church is established.
Moses made lots of recorded mistakes - the Lords still accepted him (“ 7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.") and judged those that accused him.

Numbers 12:1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.
3 (Now the man Moses was very ameek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.

[Thomas]

Hippophiba, it is great we have the leaders. Their job is to bring fish into the big net.

Matthew 13:

47 ¶Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The powers of heaven seperate the good fish from the bad. This is not a work of man. Joseph Smith taught that no man can be saved without personal revelation. The general authorities can give you general advice, but you need advice, from God, that is unique to you. As J Golden Kimball once said" there are not enough general authorities to do the thinking for everyone". Joseph Smith said: every man must know they are living their life according to the will of God." They cannot obtain salvation without this sure knowledge that only God can give to you, personally.

I think you are erecting a structure between yourself and God. That structure is made out of the general authorities. Some might call such a structure a dam. We damn ourselves when we block God out or erect any barriers between him and us. That is why it is called damnation.

[Simon]

The rock of the church is based on revelation to the leaders of the church. Without that there is no Church, if every man receives his own interpretation of the scriptures relating to the salvation of man there is no need for a church.

It is my impression that as less revelation the world receives, as more arises there the need for a"church", because people don't know where else they can find truth. To me, revelation is not the rock upon which his church is build, but revelation is the only way how we can learn how to build upon the Rock, who is Christ.

When we want to hear the voice of the Lord, we MUST know him first. If we don't know him by personal revelation we also can't hear his voice when he is calling, may that voice come by the prophet, or by any other means. No matter how much revelations our leaders may share with us, if we don't know Christ by our own, personal revelation, we must fail as a church, and as an individual.