LDS Freedom Forum

Shouldn't we cringe when someone says "when I perfect myself" then I'll be ready for God's glory?

Doesn't this kind of statement mock the Atonement?

Doesn't this statement make Christ a liar when He says to come unto Him and be saved? He also says He will not save anyone in their own sins, but from them, so just how does He do this?

Does this statement cause Moroni 10:32,33 become false?

As human, carnal and devilish as we are pray-tell, just how do we "perfect" ourselves, for we have already sinned? And only "one" sin will

keep us out of God's presence. So how do we remit our own sin(s)?

And for those who believe in re-mortalization, how many lives will it take until you are able to remit your own sins, thus becoming perfect on your own?

This topic is open for discussion. My beliefs for this are posted all over within this forum.

Christ taught the people at Bountiful (and us) how to be perfect. It begins with stripping ourselves of all ungodliness and of forsaking the world. We must become meek, poor in heart, charitable, etc. Christ does the rest.

coachmarc wrote:Christ taught the people at Bountiful (and us) how to be perfect. It begins with stripping ourselves of all ungodliness and of forsaking the world. We must become meek, poor in heart, charitable, etc. Christ does the rest.

So, in essence, you believe we cannot save or perfect ourselves, that we can only do so much and then allow the Atonement to do the rest, right?

freedomfighter wrote:

coachmarc wrote:Christ taught the people at Bountiful (and us) how to be perfect. It begins with stripping ourselves of all ungodliness and of forsaking the world. We must become meek, poor in heart, charitable, etc. Christ does the rest.

So, in essence, you believe we cannot save or perfect ourselves, that we can only do so much and then allow the Atonement to do the rest, right?

Precisely. By virtue of Christ's atonement, we are saved. It is Christ who completes us. The gulf that separates us from heaven is vast and infinite. And only Christ bridges that for us.

Christ cleans us from our past sins but we are always free to choose sin the very next minute. Christ will not take away our free agency. We must fill ourselves with the knowledge of light and truth which drives away our desire for sin. We must also freely give our agency over to him and follow his every command. The key is to find and follow his voice. Freely offer him your agency.

Without the atonement, we would all be as miserable as the devil. Without Christs sacrifice everything we would do would be in vain.

Christ did not come to take away the conditions the father has set, but to change the conditions for us. Christ gave all he could, so that when we give all that we can, it will be enough to return to God's kingdom.

So, without Christ we could never ever become perfect, we can't make ourselves perfect, we can only allow Christ to make us perfect by submitting to his conditions. King Benajmin talked about these conditions.

Mosiah 4:5-8

5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—

6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his dtrust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is anone other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you

To me the word "condition" implys that this is what is required of us. What we can do is to fulfill those conditions. But without Christ even fulfilling these conditions would not help us in any way. So yes, we can contribute by doing those things that allow him to make us perfect.

In the end it all depends a little on how we use the word "perfecting".. Of couse we can work on ouselve, improve our habits, stop sinning e.t.c. . and in that sense we can work on our "perfection".. It's a little bit like trying to cross the ocean with a boat that needs the wind to move, we can build the ship, but it won't get us to the other side without the wind.. and only the Lord has controle over that. If there is no wind, we will not move at all but stand still, no matter how good the boat looks like.

It's a two way street. If we aren't open to "perfecting" ourselves by making decision after decision to do so it'll never happen. We have free will. On the flip side of the coin, we have been told what we need to do; how we need to act; how to interact with our world. The road map is clear, but we have to navigate to get there.

So if someone says they need to perfect themselves, I might grimace as we will never be perfect, but I also understand their mentality. They have made the choice to follow Gods word, even when it's difficult. When faced with the difficult decisions, they are committed to taking the hard road (when required). For that they have my respect, as I still sometimes take the easy road.

I'm no where near perfect, nor making the right decisions all the time. Realizing none of us will achieve that in our mortal existence I don't say I'm no where near perfect trivially. I literally mean that the level of near perfection that we aspire too is measurable, it's following Gods word with very little failure; and having expanded on that I am no where near perfect. I have so many times recognized after I do or say something that I could have handled it better, make a mental note of it, then proceed to make the same dang mistake again. I'm so early in my journey that I can't use the words we are talking about here, but I understand the intent of others that use them. Or at least I pretend too.

Agreed TL.

Obviously it is only through the power of God's grace that we become better than we are. But when people say something such as "I am perfecting myself" there is usually a lot of other things being implied.

For example: If I say that I am providing for my family, nobody would think anything of that statement. But what it really means is God is giving me my health, knowledge, freedom, hope, and desire to go earn a living and the only thing that I am actually doing is making the decision to do so.

It is the same with perfection. God is giving us everything that makes it possible, all we have to do is make the decision over and over again to become so. So if someone says they are perfecting themselves I try to take it in that context. Of course there are some who try to rely on themselves too much. But they are easy to distinguish from everyone else because they are miserable all the time.

TheLion wrote:It's a two way street. If we aren't open to "perfecting" ourselves by making decision after decision to do so it'll never happen. We have free will. On the flip side of the coin, we have been told what we need to do; how we need to act; how to interact with our world. The road map is clear, but we have to navigate to get there.

So if someone says they need to perfect themselves, I might grimace as we will never be perfect, but I also understand their mentality. They have made the choice to follow Gods word, even when it's difficult. When faced with the difficult decisions, they are committed to taking the hard road (when required). For that they have my respect, as I still sometimes take the easy road.

I'm no where near perfect, nor making the right decisions all the time. Realizing none of us will achieve that in our mortal existence I don't say I'm no where near perfect trivially. I literally mean that the level of near perfection that we aspire too is measurable, it's following Gods word with very little failure; and having expanded on that I am no where near perfect. I have so many times recognized after I do or say something that I could have handled it better, make a mental note of it, then proceed to make the same dang mistake again. I'm so early in my journey that I can't use the words we are talking about here, but I understand the intent of others that use them. Or at least I pretend too.

I appreciate your honesty.
Because we continue to sin and repent and sin and repent...is precisely why we need the Atonement. Our part is in repenting wherever it is required, whereas His part is to remit the sins we commit, thus rendering us perfect in Christ. Moroni 10:32,33

Mosiah 26:30-32
30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.
31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.
32 Now I say unto you, Go; and whosoever will not repent of his sins the same shall not be numbered among my people; and this shall be observed from this time forward.

There is a condition, however:

Moro. 6:8
8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.

We cannot save ourselves nor perfect ourselves. It is Christ that does that for us, thus rendering us perfect in Him.

In order to be saved we must have faith, hope and charity.
Faith in what? Faith enough to believe that Christ will actually perfect us, that He can do it.
Hope for what? Hope that through Christ one can go to a better world. BTW, hope comes from faith, for without faith there is no hope.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

D&C 138:14
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.