CCM: If You Don't Know, Don't Condemn.

[jdawg1012]

What is CCM?

I believe it's City Creek Mall, the multi-billion dollar mall the church built.

[Thomas]

Keep the Faith wrote:You silly wabbit. The church is not run as a democracy. Priesthood govt. Is not run like the EU. Membership can't just willy nilly change Gods laws and commandments and revelations by majority rule. God speaks through His Prophets to declare his word to his church. If you don,t like or agree with what is revealed you can't just decide to alter or change things if you can get enough people to agree with you. That's just not how it works. I think you already know that being the savvy ambulance chaser you are.

You have been indoctrinated to believe that the church should run as a dictatorship but that is not the way Joseph setup the church to run. God gave us the right and ability to govern ourselves as our own agents. God gives us freedom. Much like our country's government, we have lost this right through ignorance and apathy.

The evidence is quite clear and obvious. It is not hidden in some rare document. It is right in the pages of the D&C. It is scripture. Unfortunately, it seems very few take a peek at the contents of the great words God has given us. Instead, we rely on the word of man. If this is not so, show the revelation that overturns D&C 107.

[ajax]

Now, whether Ajax agrees is a different issue altogether.

hyloglyph did a nice job, and I agree with his argument.

Ajax, JBalm, I don't know how you do it.

You have something I don't have

Jesus, BoM, JS testimony and LOTS of patience. Hang in there. (speaking for myself of course and not Brother Balm)

You silly wabbit. The church is not run as a democracy. Priesthood govt. Is not run like the EU. Membership can't just willy nilly change Gods laws and commandments and revelations by majority rule. God speaks through His Prophets to declare his word to his church.

Church/Priesthood gov't is run by common consent. There is a difference between prophets preaching the word and administrators running the temporal org. You are conflating the two.

[jbalm]

You silly wabbit. The church is not run as a democracy. Priesthood govt. Is not run like the EU. Membership can't just willy nilly change Gods laws and commandments and revelations by majority rule. God speaks through His Prophets to declare his word to his church. If you don,t like or agree with what is revealed you can't just decide to alter or change things if you can get enough people to agree with you. That's just not how it works. I think you already know that being the savvy ambulance chaser you are.

"Common consent" may not equate exactly with "democracy." But it certainly does not equate to oligarchy which is how the church is run today. Common consent was utilized for a long time, until it just gradually faded away, without fanfare, discussion, or "revelation." I suppose, just like government, the church became much more autocratic in the name of efficiency.

It is what it is. And apparently a majority of the membership is okay with it. No need to try to dance around it. Common consent has been all but nominally abandoned.

I'm not sure whether you really misunderstand the whole concept of common consent, or are just fooling around.

And, are you saying that building the CCM was a commandment? If so...interesting.

[jbalm]

You silly wabbit. The church is not run as a democracy. Priesthood govt. Is not run like the EU. Membership can't just willy nilly change Gods laws and commandments and revelations by majority rule. God speaks through His Prophets to declare his word to his church. If you don,t like or agree with what is revealed you can't just decide to alter or change things if you can get enough people to agree with you. That's just not how it works. I think you already know that being the savvy ambulance chaser you are.

Wow! I have largely stayed out of this conversation, but, I am amazed at that last sentence. Can't we be a tad more civil?

Don't sweat it. Keep the Faith and I have a long history, and I know he means no offense.

But thank you for the consideration.

[keep the faith]

You silly wabbit. The church is not run as a democracy. Priesthood govt. Is not run like the EU. Membership can't just willy nilly change Gods laws and commandments and revelations by majority rule. God speaks through His Prophets to declare his word to his church. If you don,t like or agree with what is revealed you can't just decide to alter or change things if you can get enough people to agree with you. That's just not how it works. I think you already know that being the savvy ambulance chaser you are.

Wow! I have largely stayed out of this conversation, but, I am amazed at that last sentence. Can't we be a tad more civil?

Don't sweat it. Keep the Faith and I have a long history, and I know he means no offense.

But thank you for the consideration.

Its a good thing you haven't lost your sense of humor goatman. Shadow and I would have had to come over and beat it back into you if you went anal on us.

[log]

Well, since you have agreed common consent is neither necessary nor sufficient for a thing to be of God (or not of God), then common consent is not relevant to whether CCM is of God. There's no leap there.

Ah you don't see it? One does not need common consent to do a Godly thing. But one does need common consent to use money from the church treasury.

Not anymore, apparently; and, guess what? D&C 89 is now a commandment.

Oh well.

And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order.

The only exception to this would be if one received message from God saying otherwise.

So, inquire of God to find out if the Brethren have received a message from God saying otherwise. Or don't, and take the chance on being wrong, and be cursed for your troubles. It's really a simple matter.

So do you see the leap?

No.

Common consent is not necessary to do a Godly thing, but that does not prove that it is not necessary in matters regarding the operation of the temporal church. You made that leap. I did not.

It is visibly obvious that the Church does what the Church does with or without common consent. Common consent is clearly not necessary in matters regarding its operation. There's no leap: that's observable reality.

Matters taken care of by leadership that affect the body (such as use of treasury funds)-- need to be ratified by common consent.

Apparently not, whatever the scriptures may say.

The body needs to remain free to give or take away their consent-- now, as we have seen it is very possible/easy for the leaders to move beyond common consent, but this basically takes away the body's chance at having agency on a church-wide level, and turns them into subjects. They are no longer free agents giving consent, but they are non-voting persons being subjected to any decisions the leaders think up. This is not right.

Well, it's certainly contrary to the scriptures - but we aren't even using them old things.

I suppose it could be possible for God to command the law of common consent to be broken (though it goes against most righteous principles), but then we would need to hear the revelation that asks for it to be broken, pray on it, and receive a confirmation it is true before we could accept it. Until then, we are held to the scriptural standard, even if others are following other commands-- it does not matter what any leader, prophet, pope, or angel says.

See, here is where you (and others) make your leap. You imagine you have a duty or a right to apply the scriptures against others. And you do, don't get me wrong - you have a natural right to do whatsoever you will. But not everything we do - because we can - is righteous.

I know a leader who insists on being called "President," and when he hears me refer to my bishop (or EQ pres, or anyone) by his first name, will take me aside and "correct" me.

Pop quiz: do I upbraid my leader by reference to Matthew 23 in my supreme self-righteous priggishness, showing publicly that he is a pharisee and a hypocrite? Or do I obey the golden rule, note the unpleasant nature of the interaction as such and vow in my heart to abide the teachings of Matthew 23 if or when I have an opportunity?

Look, you can be an idealistic extremist, rejecting the system, hacking the planet, or whatever - or you can work with what you have until God says otherwise.

I agree with this-- and I think that for many people, God is saying otherwise, and He is saying it louder and louder.

I haven't found one willing to say that. Anyone who intimates that does so carefully, without actually making the claim, as you have done here. What I have found are a lot of people, apparently on their own errands, crying that the Brethren have sinned.

[Thomas]

It not so much saying the brethern have sinned or placing blame. We all sin, even the brethern. I like what Log suggests concerning consulating God, but God also wants you to think for yourself. God wants you to do some work to get answers.

I think some of us, on this forum, are coming from a perspective given by Isaiah, which is the word of God. God warns that the church will go astray in the last days. Because of this warning, some of us are looking for the signs of this taking place, not for reasons of condemning but to know what things to repent of. I also believe we have a duty to warn those within our sphere of influence.

[lemuel]

I know a leader who insists on being called "President," and when he hears me refer to my bishop (or EQ pres, or anyone) by his first name, will take me aside and "correct" me.

Pop quiz: do I upbraid my leader by reference to Matthew 23 in my supreme self-righteous priggishness, showing publicly that he is a pharisee and a hypocrite? Or do I obey the golden rule, note the unpleasant nature of the interaction as such and vow in my heart to abide the teachings of Matthew 23 if or when I have an opportunity?

What I like to do in this situation, is pretend that I'm at a zoo, observing animals, and think to myself, "What an interesting species this is". Just observe and enjoy.

I had a companion on my mission who was incredibly full of himself, who one night, was telling me all about how he was going to be AP, bishop, Stake President, Mission President, and maybe a GA. I wanted to yell at him for being so prideful, but then said to myself "I will likely never see this combination of pride and a lack of self-awareness again in my life" and just let him keep going. I was roundly entertained. Best trip to the zoo I ever had.

[lemuel]

I know a leader who insists on being called "President," and when he hears me refer to my bishop (or EQ pres, or anyone) by his first name, will take me aside and "correct" me.

Pop quiz: do I upbraid my leader by reference to Matthew 23 in my supreme self-righteous priggishness, showing publicly that he is a pharisee and a hypocrite? Or do I obey the golden rule, note the unpleasant nature of the interaction as such and vow in my heart to abide the teachings of Matthew 23 if or when I have an opportunity?

The best part of that story:

The leader is log's son, the Deacon's quorum pres.

"Dad! Call me President!"

:p

[ajax]

I know a leader who insists on being called "President," and when he hears me refer to my bishop (or EQ pres, or anyone) by his first name, will take me aside and "correct" me.

Pop quiz: do I upbraid my leader by reference to Matthew 23 in my supreme self-righteous priggishness, showing publicly that he is a pharisee and a hypocrite? Or do I obey the golden rule, note the unpleasant nature of the interaction as such and vow in my heart to abide the teachings of Matthew 23 if or when I have an opportunity?

What I like to do in this situation, is pretend that I'm at a zoo, observing animals, and think to myself, "What an interesting species this is". Just observe and enjoy.

I generally do something like "accidentally" step on their toes. If everybody did this, we could train them in the right way. Pavlov anyone?

[hyloglyph]

Well, it's certainly contrary to the scriptures - but we aren't even using them old things.

Well, thanks for the conversation then log, once your logic leads you to have to come back with this ^^^ i guess that's the end.

Your last post came off kind of testy. I hope I don't come off that way too. If we were chatting in person you would feel that I am genuine, and that I actually am interested in being open minded and learning whatever I can. Not sure if any of that comes through via text. I have enjoyed, and actually been slightly enlightened by many of your other posts (don't let it go to your head). I just can't follow what your logic is on this one-- that's why I was posting about it-- trying to develop it more and get more info.

Normally it seems you especially have the knack for grasping the subtle differences in reasoning, but now you are saying things like this?:

See, here is where you (and others) make your leap. You imagine you have a duty or a right to apply the scriptures against others.

Why would you say that? There are a ton of people on here who I would expect that from but you weren't one of them.

I made no leap like that. Your normally clean logic has descended into ad hominem rhetoric-- against me? Why? I was interested in your ideas.

You know what I imagine? How? You suppose I think myself to have some special duty or right to use scripture to judge others?

It is unbelievable to me that in a thread about not condemning, in the midst of a sentence about not judging-- you are supposing to know what I am thinking-- Judging me by saying I want to use scripture against others.

If you don't know, don't condemn. Take your own advice. For me, lol if you knew me you would know that in most all cases I wouldn't feel comfortable condemning period. Even when I do know. I don't feel comfortable in the role of an accuser, everyone that knows me knows that.

Pop quiz: do I upbraid my leader by reference to Matthew 23 in my supreme self-righteous priggishness, showing publicly that he is a pharisee and a hypocrite?
I have found are a lot of people, apparently on their own errands, crying that the Brethren have sinned.

Maybe you are referring to others here? I have never cried that the Brethren are sinners. I am not on any errand. I am just curious, honest, and have no qualms about facing the stark reality. There are some things regarding church procedure called for in scripture, that are not followed. Saying that isn't calling anyone a sinner. How can you of all people not see that? Just last night you were extrapolating out the meaning of a sentence based only on the tense of a single word lol (and I agreed with your interpretation).

In the Wilford Woodruff manual (yes, the one probably paid for without common consent) it mentions how even before Wilford was a member, he would constantly bring up Jude 1:3:

it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

That's all I am trying to do. That's what Wilford did, before he was even a member. That was a strong and common sentiment in our early church. That is our heritage as LDS. We should earnestly contend for the original faith! Doing so is not condemning, and it is not sinning-- quite the opposite.


On the other hand, I guess we could always just use this strategy:

D&C 89 is now a commandment.

Oh well.

[Hannant]

I can't believe how much things have changed for me the past month, since I read one of the threads here, and was introduced to "Mormon stories podcasts".

For months, heck probably years I could read these kind of threads.

Now, just not even, well, barely interested.

I've just lost my best friend, and his wife and family.

I think I'm next. I don't know what my feelings are about this.

I think I only have one or two posts left in me.

Ajax, JBalm, I don't know how you do it.

You have something I don't have

Lost your best friend how? Left church? Worse?

DrJme, his brother, Cowell, Aussie, others.

These are some people I would call friends, and best friends in the world. And others who don't come to this web site that I know of.

Gone, lost faith, given up, chucked in the towel, whatever.

Basically, decided they don't believe it any more. Now my wife.

And probably myself.

There is very little to cling on to anymore.

It's doing my head in

These threads just seem like words going in circles, or being in a whirlpool while I'm getting deeper and deeper, and closer to the plug hole.

I'm not sure what happens once I am sucked into it.

[freedomforall]

There was a time where I would follow blindly . But know I know better. When god creates or inspires something and then turns it over to his children, he honors our agency to choose what to do with it. When we change it and say we are improving gods design, we then fall under condemnation. Huh haven't we been under condemnation since 1832, we need to repent do everything that HE asks us to, not men.

No one should follow blindly. This is why we're instructed to feast upon the word and to gain the faith necessary for salvation on our own. To follow blindly is to attach oneself to another's testimony. We must gain our own testimony and follow Jesus's example to be on the right path.
Read Lectures on Faith, Lecture IV.

Better yet, read it here:

LECTURE FOURTH.

Of Faith.

SECTION 4.

1 Having shown in the third lecture, that correct ideas of the character of God are necessary in order to the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation, and that without correct ideas of his character, the minds of men could not have sufficient power with God to the exercise of faith necessary to the enjoyment of eternal life, and that correct ideas of his character lay a foundation as far as his character is concerned, for the exercise of faith, so as to enjoy the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even that of eternal glory; we shall now proceed to show the connection there is between correct ideas of the attributes of God, and the exercise of faith in him unto eternal life.

2 Let us here observe, that the real design which the God of heaven had in view in making the human family acquainted with his attributes, was, that they through the ideas of the existence of his attributes, might be enabled to exercise faith in him, and through the exercise of faith in him, might obtain eternal life. For without the idea of the existence of the attributes which belong to God, the minds of men could not have power to exercise faith on him so as to lay hold upon eternal life. The God of heaven understanding most perfectly the constitution of human nature, and the weakness of man, knew what was necessary to be revealed, and what ideas must be planted in their minds in order that they might be enabled to exercise faith in him unto eternal life.

3 Having said so much we shall proceed to examine the attributes of God, as set forth in his revelations to the human family, and to show how necessary correct ideas of his attributes are, to enable men to exercise faith in him. For without these ideas being planted in the minds of men, it would be out of the power of any person or persons to exercise faith in God so as to obtain eternal life. So that the divine communications made to man in the first instance, were designed to establish in their minds the ideas necessary to enable them to exercise faith in God, and through this means to be partakers of his glory.

4 We have, in the revelations which he has given to the human family, the following account of his attributes.

5 First, Knowledge. Act 15:18. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Isaiah 46:9,10. Remember the former things of old; for I am God and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient time the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

6 Secondly, Faith, or power. Heb. 11:3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. Gen. 1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Isaiah 14:24,27. The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

7 Thirdly, Justice. Ps. 89:14. Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne. Isaiah 45:21. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take council together: who has declared this from the ancient time? Have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior. Zeph. 5:5. The just Lord is in the midst thereof. Zech. 9:9. Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King comes unto thee: he is just, and having salvation.

8 Fourthly, Judgment. Ps 89:14. Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne. Deut. 32:

4. He is the Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth, and without inequity: just and right is he. Ps. 9:7. But the Lord shall endure forever: he has prepared his throne for judgment. Ps. 9:16. The Lord is known by the judgment which he executes.

9 Fifthly, Mercy. Ps. 89:15. Mercy and truth shall go before his face. Exodus 34:6. And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious. Neh. 9:17. But thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful.

10 And Sixthly, Truth. Ps. 89:14. Mercy and truth shall go before thy face. Exodus 34:6. Long suffering and abundant in goodness and truth. Deut. 32:4. He is the Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are judgment. A God of truth and without iniquity: just and right is he. Ps. 31:5. Into thy hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord God of truth.

11 By a little reflection it will be seen, that the idea of the existence of these attributes in the Deity, is necessary to enable any rational being to exercise faith in him. For without the idea of the existence of these attributes in the Deity, men could not exercise faith in him for life and salvation; seeing that without the knowledge of all things, God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures; for it is by reason of the knowledge which he has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures, by which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men, that God had all knowledge, it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him.

12 And it is not less necessary that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute power in the Deity. For, unless God had power over all things, and was able, by his power, to control all things, and thereby deliver his creatures who put their trust in him, from the power of all beings that might seek their destruction, whether in heaven, on earth, or in hell, men could not be saved; but with the idea of the existence of this attribute, planted in the mind, men feel as though they had nothing to fear, who put their trust in God, believing that he has power to save all who come to him, to the very uttermost.

13 It is also necessary, in order to the exercise of faith in God, unto life and salvation, that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in him. For without the idea of the existence of the attribute Justice, in the Deity, men could not have confidence sufficiently to place themselves under his guidance and direction; for they would be filled with fear and doubt, lest the Judge of all the earth would not do right; and thus fear, or doubt, existing in the mind, would preclude the possibility of the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation. But, when the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in the Deity, is fairly planted in the mind, it leaves no room for doubt to get into the heart, and the mind is enabled to cast itself upon the Almighty without fear and without doubt, and with most unshaken confidence, believing that the Judge of all the earth will do right.

14 It is also of equal importance that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute judgment, in God, in order that they may exercise faith in him for life and salvation; for without the idea of the existence of this attribute in the Deity, it would be impossible for men to exercise faith in him for life and salvation, seeing that it is through the exercise of this attribute that the faithful in Christ Jesus are delivered out of the hands of those who seek their destruction; for if God were not to come out in swift judgment against the workers of iniquity and the powers of darkness, his saints could not be saved; for it is by judgment that the Lord delivers his saints out of the hands of all their enemies, and those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. But no sooner is the idea of the existence of this attribute, planted in the minds of men, than it gives power to the minds for the exercise of faith and confidence in God, and they are enabled, by faith, to lay hold on the promises which are set before them, and wade through all the tribulations and afflications to which they are subjected by reason of the persecution from those who know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: believing, that in due time the Lord will come out in swift judgment against their enemies, and they shall be cut off from before him, and that in his own due time he will bear them off conquerers and more than conquerers in all things.

15 And again, it is equally important that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute mercy, in the Deity, in order to exercise faith in him for life and salvation. For, without the idea of the existence of this attribute in the Deity, the spirits of the saints would faint in the midst of the tribulations, afflictions and persecutions which they have to endure for righteousness' sake; but when the idea of the existence of this attribute is once established in the mind it gives life and energy to the spirits of the saints: believing that the mercy of God will be poured out upon them in the midst of their afflictions, and that he will compassionate them in their sufferings; and that the mercy of God will lay hold of them and secure them in the arms of his love, so that they will receive a full reward for all their sufferings.

16 And lastly, but not less important to the exercise of faith in God, is the idea of the existence of the attribute truth, in him. For, without the idea of the existence of this attribute the mind of man could have nothing upon which it could rest with certainty: all would be confusion and doubt; but with the idea of the existence of this attribute in the Deity, in the mind, all the teachings, instructions, promises and blessings become realities, and the mind is enabled to lay hold of them with certainty and confidence: believing that these things, and all that the Lord has said, shall be fulfilled in their time; and that all the cursings, denunciations and judgments, pronounced upon the heads of the unrighteous will also be executed in the due time of the Lord: and by reason of the truth and veracity of him, the mind beholds its deliverance and salvation as being certain.

17 Let the mind once reflect sincerely and candidly upon the ideas of the existence of the before mentioned attributes in the Deity, and it will be seen, that as far as his attributes are concerned, there is a sure foundation laid for the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation. For in as much as God possesses the attribute knowledge he can make all things known to his saints necessary for their salvation; and as he possesses the attribute power he is able thereby to deliver them from the power of all enemies; and seeing also, that justice is an attribute of the Deity, he will deal with them upon the principles of righteousness and equity, and a just reward will be granted unto them for all their afflictions and sufferings for the truth's sake. And as judgment is an attribute of the Deity also, his saints can have the most unshaken confidence, that they will, in due time, obtain a perfect deliverance out of the hands of all their enemies, and a complete victory over all those who have sought their hurt and destruction. And as mercy is also an attribute of the Deity, his saints can have confidence that it will be exercised toward them; and through the exercise of that attribute toward them, comfort and consolation will be administered unto them abundantly, amid all their afflictions and tribulations. And lastly, realizing that truth is an attribute of the Deity, the mind is led to rejoice amid all its trials and temptations, in hope of that glory which is to be brought at the revelation of Jesus Christ, and in view of that crown which is to be placed upon the heads of the saints in the day when the Lord shall distribute rewards unto them, and in prospect of that eternal weight of glory which the Lord has promised to bestow upon them when he shall bring them into the midst of his throne to dwell in his presence eternally.

18 In view, then, of the existence of these attributes, the faith of the saints can become exceedingly strong: abounding in righteousness unto the praise and glory of God, and can exert its mighty influence in searching after wisdom and understanding, until it has obtained a knowledge of all things that pertain to life and salvation.

19 Such, then, is the foundation, which is laid, through the revelation of the attributes of God, for the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation; and seeing that these are attributes of the Deity, they are unchangeable--being the same yesterday to day and forever--which gives to the minds of the Latter Day Saints the same power and authority to exercise faith in God, which the Former Day Saints had: so that all the saints, in this respect have been, are and will be alike, until the end of time; for God never changes, therefore his attributes and character remain forever the same. And as it is through the revelation of these that a foundation is laid for the exercise of faith in God unto life and salvation, the foundation, therefore, for the exercise of faith, was, is and ever will be the same. So that all men have had, and will have an equal privilege.

Question. What was shown in the third lecture?
Answer. It was shown that correct ideas of the character of God are necessary in order to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation; and that without correct ideas of his character, men could not have power to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation, but that correct ideas of his character, as far as his character is concerned in the exercise of faith in him, lay a sure foundation for the exercise of it. (4:1.)

Q. What object had the God of heaven in revealing his attributes to men?
A. That through an acquaintance with his attributes they might be enabled to exercise faith in him so as to obtain eternal life. (4:2.)

Q. Could men exercise faith in God without an acquaintance with his attributes, so as to be enabled to lay hold of eternal life?
A. They could not. (4:2,3.)

Q. What account is given of the attributes of God in his revelations?
A. First, Knowledge, secondly, Faith, or power, thirdly, Justice, fourthly, Judgment, fifthly, Mercy, and sixthly truth. (4:4-10.)

Q. Where are the revelations to be found which give this relation of the attributes of God?
A. In the Old and New Testaments, and they are quoted in the fourth lecture, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth paragraphs.*

Q. Is the idea of the existence of those attributes, in the Deity, necessary in order to enable any rational being to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation?
A. It is.

Q. How do you prove it?
Q. By the eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth and sixteenth paragraphs in this lecture.*
Q. Does the idea of the existence of these attributes in the Deity, as far as his attributes are concerned, enable a ratonal being to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation?
A. It does.

Q. How do you prove it?
A. By the seventeenth and eighteenth paragraphs.*

Q. Have the Latter Day Saints as much authority given them, through the revelation of the attributes of God, to exercise faith in him as the Former Day Saints had?
A. They have.

Q. How do you prove it?
A. By the nineteenth paragraph of this lecture.*

SEE: http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_faith.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[freedomforall]

Does this look familiar?

More gospel bashing and disputations.
The scriptures say this. No the scriptures say that. No the scriptures say this. No, the scriptures say that. The church leadership has fallen. No they haven't. MMP's are real. No they are not. I know more than you do, so there. No you don't, blah, blah, blah!

HERE WE GO!

[/quote]

OR:



[/quote]

[jbalm]

I can't believe how much things have changed for me the past month, since I read one of the threads here, and was introduced to "Mormon stories podcasts".

For months, heck probably years I could read these kind of threads.

Now, just not even, well, barely interested.

I've just lost my best friend, and his wife and family.

I think I'm next. I don't know what my feelings are about this.

I think I only have one or two posts left in me.

Ajax, JBalm, I don't know how you do it.

You have something I don't have

Lost your best friend how? Left church? Worse?

DrJme, his brother, Cowell, Aussie, others.

These are some people I would call friends, and best friends in the world. And others who don't come to this web site that I know of.

Gone, lost faith, given up, chucked in the towel, whatever.

Basically, decided they don't believe it any more. Now my wife.

And probably myself.

There is very little to cling on to anymore.

It's doing my head in

These threads just seem like words going in circles, or being in a whirlpool while I'm getting deeper and deeper, and closer to the plug hole.

I'm not sure what happens once I am sucked into it.

I know where you are coming from. For over a year, since the bottom fell out, I've been trying to salvage something of my lifelong relationship with Mormonism. I've put in a lot of effort redefining things, and learning to ignore things I used to consider important while simultaneously embracing other things I used to consider mundane. And of course, I have had to change my expectations considerably. All while being called apostate. It's tough.

A renewed faith in a loving creator is what keeps me going I suppose. I hope you have the benefit of something similar.

If I had to put a label my current set of beliefs, I'm much closer to Deism than Mormonism. For better or worse, my beliefs are based on experience and evidence, rather than the testimonies of others. So far, the evidence and my experiences have led to my difficulties with the contemporary version of Mormonism. But, I'm always open to new evidence, and I'm never afraid to admit when I'm wrong, so the journey isn't over yet. For now, I'm content to hang out on the fringes of Mormonism hoping for "further light and knowledge."

God bless. I hope you hang around.

[log]

Well, it's certainly contrary to the scriptures - but we aren't even using them old things.

Well, thanks for the conversation then log, once your logic leads you to have to come back with this ^^^ i guess that's the end.

It is, actually. That's my point. The scriptures as pertains to running the Church are irrelevant, just as the Constitution is irrelevant; all that matters is case law, or, in the Church, the CHI.

Normally it seems you especially have the knack for grasping the subtle differences in reasoning, but now you are saying things like this?:

See, here is where you (and others) make your leap. You imagine you have a duty or a right to apply the scriptures against others.

Why would you say that? There are a ton of people on here who I would expect that from but you weren't one of them.

I would say it because it is true. Unless you really didn't mean that common consent was an issue. But I thought you expressed your belief that not only was it an issue, but contrary to the scriptures, rather clearly.

Unless I am grossly mistaken - and granted, I could be - you DID say this, right? "One does not need common consent to do a Godly thing. But one does need common consent to use money from the church treasury."

Clearly you weren't speaking of yourself as the "one" using money from the Church treasury. Therefore, you had to be speaking of an"other".

On the other hand, I guess we could always just use this strategy:

D&C 89 is now a commandment.

Oh well.

That's my personal strategy. How the Brethren execute their stewardships is not my business until God makes it my business. Common consent is gone, just like the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Indeed, there seems to be a precise correspondence between political and religious corruption...

Anyways, bro, don't be so serious. I got no malice in my heart towards you or Ajax (or anyone else, for that matter).

[Thomas]

I can't believe how much things have changed for me the past month, since I read one of the threads here, and was introduced to "Mormon stories podcasts".

For months, heck probably years I could read these kind of threads.

Now, just not even, well, barely interested.

I've just lost my best friend, and his wife and family.

I think I'm next. I don't know what my feelings are about this.

I think I only have one or two posts left in me.

Ajax, JBalm, I don't know how you do it.

You have something I don't have

I think if you place your faith in the institution and the men that run it, you don't have a solid foundation. You will see their faults and lose faith. Just because men make mistakes doesn't mean that it is not God's church. The scriptures should give you a lot of examples of how the relationship between God and his covenant people works. It is a constant flow of restoring verses falling away and during those falling away periods, God always works with the faithful repentant people. He always works with those people who are part of his covenant. Those people will always fail him. They always have but that doesn't mean you have to. You can exercise faith unto God and he will work with you. The problems develope when we buy into the infallibilty myth. Man does fall.

The LDS are God's covenant people. There is no where else to go. Don't let the failings of men ruin your relationship with God. Don't think your expectations should be for anything other than what ancient Israel went through. We will have the same ups and downs as they did. Expecting anything different is unrealistic.

[freedomforall]

Lost your best friend how? Left church? Worse?

DrJme, his brother, Cowell, Aussie, others.

These are some people I would call friends, and best friends in the world. And others who don't come to this web site that I know of.

Gone, lost faith, given up, chucked in the towel, whatever.

Basically, decided they don't believe it any more. Now my wife.

And probably myself.

There is very little to cling on to anymore.

It's doing my head in

These threads just seem like words going in circles, or being in a whirlpool while I'm getting deeper and deeper, and closer to the plug hole.

I'm not sure what happens once I am sucked into it.

I know where you are coming from. For over a year, since the bottom fell out, I've been trying to salvage something of my lifelong relationship with Mormonism. I've put in a lot of effort redefining things, and learning to ignore things I used to consider important while simultaneously embracing other things I used to consider mundane. And of course, I have had to change my expectations considerably. All while being called apostate. It's tough.

A renewed faith in a loving creator is what keeps me going I suppose. I hope you have the benefit of something similar.

If I had to put a label my current set of beliefs, I'm much closer to Deism than Mormonism. For better or worse, my beliefs are based on experience and evidence, rather than the testimonies of others. So far, the evidence and my experiences have led to my difficulties with the contemporary version of Mormonism. But, I'm always open to new evidence, and I'm never afraid to admit when I'm wrong, so the journey isn't over yet. For now, I'm content to hang out on the fringes of Mormonism hoping for "further light and knowledge."

God bless. I hope you hang around.

The reason I copy and paste is because I want God to speak to man's heart and not depend on my words. So I'll give my 2 cents and see where it goes.
I, too, have faults and struggles that sometimes causes me to wonder if I should continue in the faith, even though I have had many spiritual experiences that help me stay in line.
But there are some basic scriptures, if learned and followed will help the journey so much better.

1. Moroni 10:32,33
32Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace...
33And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins , that ye become holy , without spot. Do we believe this?

2. Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God. It is faith and hope for a better world that helps us to stay on the path. Without this hope and faith we are lost.

Proverbs 3:5,6
5 ¶Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. We must trust in Christ, that He can and will save us if we stay on the right path. We also cannot trust in our own understanding of things because we yet are in the flesh.

$. Alma Chap. 32 It teaches how to take desire to believe and nourish it into a large tree of faith. The chap. is not on faith but how to obtain it.

That's not to say that some people will not just plain give up, for some do. If we are too hard on ourselves, that's where it leads us. Let's try trusting in the Lord to save us and not go by our own thoughts. It's worth finding out in the end isn't it, rather than simply quitting and losing everything for certain? What is there to lose by hanging in there?

[lemuel]

I can't believe how much things have changed for me the past month, since I read one of the threads here, and was introduced to "Mormon stories podcasts".

For months, heck probably years I could read these kind of threads.

Now, just not even, well, barely interested.

I've just lost my best friend, and his wife and family.

I think I'm next. I don't know what my feelings are about this.

I think I only have one or two posts left in me.

Ajax, JBalm, I don't know how you do it.

You have something I don't have

For me, this is why it's not important to have faith in men. Men will let you down. God will not let you down. Always remember the words of Rick James:



No matter what anachronisms may be there, the message of the BoM is amazing.

[hyloglyph]

Well, it's certainly contrary to the scriptures - but we aren't even using them old things.

Well, thanks for the conversation then log, once your logic leads you to have to come back with this ^^^ i guess that's the end.

It is, actually. That's my point. The scriptures as pertains to running the Church are irrelevant, just as the Constitution is irrelevant; all that matters is case law, or, in the Church, the CHI.

Normally it seems you especially have the knack for grasping the subtle differences in reasoning, but now you are saying things like this?:

See, here is where you (and others) make your leap. You imagine you have a duty or a right to apply the scriptures against others.

Why would you say that? There are a ton of people on here who I would expect that from but you weren't one of them.

I would say it because it is true. Unless you really didn't mean that common consent was an issue. But I thought you expressed your belief that not only was it an issue, but contrary to the scriptures, rather clearly.

Unless I am grossly mistaken - and granted, I could be - you DID say this, right? "One does not need common consent to do a Godly thing. But one does need common consent to use money from the church treasury."

Clearly you weren't speaking of yourself as the "one" using money from the Church treasury. Therefore, you had to be speaking of an"other".

On the other hand, I guess we could always just use this strategy:

D&C 89 is now a commandment.

Oh well.

That's my personal strategy. How the Brethren execute their stewardships is not my business until God makes it my business. Common consent is gone, just like the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Indeed, there seems to be a precise correspondence between political and religious corruption...

Anyways, bro, don't be so serious. I got no malice in my heart towards you or Ajax (or anyone else, for that matter).

Wait why would I think that you had malice in your heart towards me or Ajax? What happened?

Haha that is what I was saying log-- I think you have good ideas, i was just picking your brain. It's not serious at all. Sure, sometimes you have better ideas than other times, but either way I still think it's interesting.

[log]

Well, you said I was engaged in ad hominem argumentation. I was trying to clarify there's nothing personal here.

The system we inherited was broken before we got here. The guys who broke it are long dead. And we are not in a position to fix it. So, we work within the system we have received, despite having the blueprints to the true order of things in the scriptures, strictly according to our stewardships and let everyone else go to hell if they are so inclined.

Heck, even the endowments are broken; we got the adulterated version from Brigham Young. Yet, when we are, through our diligence, given to understand the message thereof, we readily see that the Lord is still in control.

There are yet servants of the Lord sitting in the chief seats of the synagogue, even if some in the high seats may know not the Lord.

[hyloglyph]

Well, you said I was engaged in ad hominem argumentation. I was trying to clarify there's nothing personal here.

The system we inherited was broken before we got here. The guys who broke it are long dead. And we are not in a position to fix it. So, we work within the system we have received, despite having the blueprints to the true order of things in the scriptures, strictly according to our stewardships and let everyone else go to hell if they are so inclined.

Heck, even the endowments are broken; we got the adulterated version from Brigham Young. Yet, when we are, through our diligence, given to understand the message thereof, we readily see that the Lord is still in control.

There are yet servants of the Lord sitting in the chief seats of the synagogue, even if some in the high seats may know not the Lord.

Well you did use some ad hominem, not a big deal though, in fact it is standard around here. It's all good. Like i said I enjoy your way of reasoning.

We are totally good. I just haven't been able to follow your logic this time is all. But I can see where you are coming from. I'm just thankful that everyone can have different strategies. I think it is best that way. Maybe your way is right, but there may be other ways too. Where would we be if Martin Luther had entertained your same thoughts?

Anyways, I won't get back into it lol. Keep putting up threads my brother.

[Hannant]

I tried to read the nonsense they put out last Night to address the multiple versions and stories of the first vision(s).

If that's the best they can come up with, then I cant see how I can't believe its just made up as things fell apart in the 1830s.
One god
Then an angel.
Nephi.
Then "Maroni" (sic)

Then nephi.
Then 2 gods and the father.
Oh, and angels.
then a noise
then the unseen voice/ destruction

oooh my head is done in.
they aren't Seriously trying to pass that off are they?

[log]

I personally don't have a problem with any of that. Just as when I speak of my experiences, I emphasize some things, deemphasize others, and don't mention yet others, depending on the audience.

You might benefit from this link.