CCM: If You Don't Know, Don't Condemn.

[freedomforall]

These threads about money and wealth and the needy do my head in. Now I'm reading we members are meant to have a say in running things.
Common consent?
Where have I been?

It all depends on whose telling the story, right?

[Thomas]

Freedomfighter wrote: 22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

chosen by the body = the body of the Melchizedek Priesthood, not the whole church
upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church = everyone able to sustain the new President and his Councillors as church leadership.

To me it is not the whole membership that decides, or picks, who the new Pres, will be.

I would say your interpetation is most likely correct. In any event, it should be appearant that the church was supposed to be a democracy and not the dictatorship that has devolpoed. I understnd that in Joseph's day, Bishops and Stake presidents were chosen by vote of the members with second and third place becoming councilors.

Doctrine and Covenants 26:2
2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

Doctrine and Covenants 28:13
13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

60 And ye shall prepare for yourselves a place for a atreasury, and consecrate it unto my name.

61 And ye shall appoint one among you to keep the treasury, and he shall be ordained unto this blessing.

62 And there shall be a seal upon the treasury, and all the sacred things shall be delivered into the treasury; and no man among you shall call it his own, or any part of it, for it shall belong to you all with one accord.


63 And I give it unto you from this very hour; and now see to it, that ye go to and make use of the stewardship which I have appointed unto you, exclusive of the sacred things, for the purpose of printing these sacred things as I have said.

64 And the aavails of the sacred things shall be had in the treasury, and a seal shall be upon it; and it shall not be used or taken out of the treasury by any one, neither shall the seal be loosed which shall be placed upon it, only by the voice of the order, or by commandment.


71 And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order.

72 And this shall be the voice and common consent of the order—that any man among you say to the treasurer: I have need of this to help me in my stewardship—

It is quite obivious that the church runs quite differntly than what Joseph steup but the manner in which money was spent was to be agreed upon by the body of the priesthood. God setup a democracy. That has been changed to dictatorship.

[Hannant]

These threads about money and wealth and the needy do my head in. Now I'm reading we members are meant to have a say in running things.
Common consent?
Where have I been?

It all depends on whose telling the story, right?

Well yes, I mean that is important.
But, how can there be a "telling" on facts? And truth?
I mean what is, is.
Right?
Why does it matter whether it is you, me, or Sally Jane telling it?

[Amonhi]

The point of this post is not to say CCM is, or is not, directed of God. It is to say that unless you have direct knowledge, and not simply supposition, that it is not of God, it is wise to hold your peace concerning the matter.

Until you have that direct knowledge, you have to ask yourself, is this where I want to spend my charity money? Is this the best place to put my tithing, consecrated funds to build up the kingdom of God on teh earth? Or would your money be spent better by donating to the Lord through his servants that maintain forums like the LDSFreedom Forum, or Elliaison forum or other good forums. Or to other causes who are using your money the way you intend it to be used helping to further the work. Generally when I donate my money to the church, it is for the purpose of heating, lighting buildings, caring for facilities and the like. When I invest in real estate, businesses, etc. I intend to get a return on my investment.

I personally don't authorize my money to be used for malls. I will put my tithing into groups that I feel are using it the way I intend it to be used. I will do that based on my own revelation and make sure I am square with God in doing so.

Amonhi

[log]

The point of this post is not to say CCM is, or is not, directed of God. It is to say that unless you have direct knowledge, and not simply supposition, that it is not of God, it is wise to hold your peace concerning the matter.

Until you have that direct knowledge, you have to ask yourself, is this where I want to spend my charity money? Is this the best place to put my tithing, consecrated funds to build up the kingdom of God on teh earth?

Until we have direct knowledge otherwise, I would say it is wise to continue paying tithes to the Church, as commanded. (D&C 119)

I'd say, in general, it is wise to keep the commandments until the Lord shall say to us something different.

Would you say something different?

[keep the faith]

The point of this post is not to say CCM is, or is not, directed of God. It is to say that unless you have direct knowledge, and not simply supposition, that it is not of God, it is wise to hold your peace concerning the matter.

Until you have that direct knowledge, you have to ask yourself, is this where I want to spend my charity money? Is this the best place to put my tithing, consecrated funds to build up the kingdom of God on teh earth? Or would your money be spent better by donating to the Lord through his servants that maintain forums like the LDSFreedom Forum, or Elliaison forum or other good forums. Or to other causes who are using your money the way you intend it to be used helping to further the work. Generally when I donate my money to the church, it is for the purpose of heating, lighting buildings, caring for facilities and the like. When I invest in real estate, businesses, etc. I intend to get a return on my investment.

I personally don't authorize my money to be used for malls. I will put my tithing into groups that I feel are using it the way I intend it to be used. I will do that based on my own revelation and make sure I am square with God in doing so.

Amonhi

I was just waiting for this one. Why pay your tithes and offerings to a fallen church when you can give those same funds to certain forums of which I just happen to play a big part of... You are to much Amonhi. :o)

[Epistemology]

The point of this post is not to say CCM is, or is not, directed of God. It is to say that unless you have direct knowledge, and not simply supposition, that it is not of God, it is wise to hold your peace concerning the matter.

Until you have that direct knowledge, you have to ask yourself, is this where I want to spend my charity money? Is this the best place to put my tithing, consecrated funds to build up the kingdom of God on teh earth? Or would your money be spent better by donating to the Lord through his servants that maintain forums like the LDSFreedom Forum, or Elliaison forum or other good forums. Or to other causes who are using your money the way you intend it to be used helping to further the work. Generally when I donate my money to the church, it is for the purpose of heating, lighting buildings, caring for facilities and the like. When I invest in real estate, businesses, etc. I intend to get a return on my investment.

I personally don't authorize my money to be used for malls. I will put my tithing into groups that I feel are using it the way I intend it to be used. I will do that based on my own revelation and make sure I am square with God in doing so.

Amonhi

I was just waiting for this one. Why pay your tithes and offerings to a fallen church when you can give those same funds to certain forums of which I just happen to play a big part of... You are to much Amonhi. :o)

:)) :))

[Hannant]

Why do these threads have to suffer really silly posts, and straw men, and non sequiturs?
Fallen church?
The level of discussion could be higher, surely?
I wouldn't mind an answer to my question as well if one Night be forthcoming

[Amonhi]

The point of this post is not to say CCM is, or is not, directed of God. It is to say that unless you have direct knowledge, and not simply supposition, that it is not of God, it is wise to hold your peace concerning the matter.

Until you have that direct knowledge, you have to ask yourself, is this where I want to spend my charity money? Is this the best place to put my tithing, consecrated funds to build up the kingdom of God on teh earth? Or would your money be spent better by donating to the Lord through his servants that maintain forums like the LDSFreedom Forum, or Elliaison forum or other good forums. Or to other causes who are using your money the way you intend it to be used helping to further the work. Generally when I donate my money to the church, it is for the purpose of heating, lighting buildings, caring for facilities and the like. When I invest in real estate, businesses, etc. I intend to get a return on my investment.

I personally don't authorize my money to be used for malls. I will put my tithing into groups that I feel are using it the way I intend it to be used. I will do that based on my own revelation and make sure I am square with God in doing so.

Amonhi

I was just waiting for this one. Why pay your tithes and offerings to a fallen church when you can give those same funds to certain forums of which I just happen to play a big part of... You are to much Amonhi. :o)

LOL, I don't think I play a bigger part on this forum than you do Keep the Faith. I am just a member, same as any.

My advice, "Put your money where you would put your time" is not actually my advice, I am just repeating it because it is good advice. I think most wise investors for example Robert Kiyosaki, Jim Rohn and many, many others who suggest that you pay a tenth of you interest to charities have given the same counsel. I figured these forums would be pretty common places that members of these forums, (like you or I), would want to donate to seeing that we are all part of and utilize and benefit from one or both of those forums.

I myself do not gain financially from any money that goes to either forum. I only recently heard that the LDS Freedom Forum has a way to take donations. I feel that this forum is the best at what it does that I have ever been part of. I have joined many LDS forums over the past number of years. When I have felt that it was a worthy cause, I have donated time, money and effort to keep it going or helping the forum owners in some way or other. Just like keeping the lights on at the church buildings and temples and sustaining our leaders. I sustain those who have created and maintain this forum and the Elliaison forum.

The LDS Freedom Forum is a most excellent place where you are not kicked off for believing contrary to the moderators or forum owners. (Good luck finding a forum that lives that truth elsewhere.) Personal opinion and voice are protected here, FAR MORE THAN THEY ARE PROTECTED IN THE LDS CHURCH. Everyone reading this or any other thread on this site has benefited from the discussions taking place. This site is far better than a gospel doctrine class. You pay to keep the lights on in church so you can have a gospel doctrine class and a priesthood meeting, why would you not donate to this site for getting many more times the benefit than you get from a 3 hour block once a week at church. What a shame it would be to loose this most wonderful resource for hearing and sharing ideas!!! I myself have grown and learned from the collective mind of this forum more than I can express and 10x more than I would have if it had not existed. Even those whom disagree with me in many ways have helped to educate me. (One of the reasons why I spend my time in the open forum where people can openly disagree with me to their hearts content as opposed to areas like the greater things where they are limited in their expression is because I grow more from opposition than I do without it.) Most forums prevent such opposition in an effort to maintain a single mind consistent with the Current Church Doctrine. They kick out those who disagree with the owners/moderator's view points regardless of how founded/unfounded they might be. This forum welcomes everyone as equals. I appreciate that because I want to discuss as equals the doctrines of truth and have an equal say with my brothers and sisters. I find great value here and I am not ashamed to donate or encourage others to donate to this forum, even if they are giving money that would have gone to the Church because I and others benefit from this site more than we do from malls or even in some instances church buildings.

Elliaison currently is not setup to take random donations, but I will admit that I have donated both time and money to the Elliaison projects and books along with other contributors to both the books, the site and the other charity efforts. I find nothing wrong with the sound advice of donating money to groups that you support and which clearly are furthering the Lords work. If you don't like either of those groups, you could donate to any number of worthy efforts that you feel spends your money to accomplish the things which you yourself would do if you had the time to do it. Again, I am repeating sound advice from wise people.

So, if you would put your time into spreading the gospel as a missionary, then donate to the missionaries funds, if you would put your time into working at a mall, then go ahead and donate to build more malls...

Sound advice... Wish I were the first to come up with it...
LOL, peace,
Amonhi

[log]

These threads about money and wealth and the needy do my head in. Now I'm reading we members are meant to have a say in running things.
Common consent?
Where have I been?

Back in the days of Joseph, it was the case that the Church did all things by common consent. Those days are long over. Now, the only thing that I can think of that we do by common consent is accept the scriptures, really.

[Hannant]

Sounds like you are speaking ill of the Lord's Anointed....no?

[log]

Sounds like you are speaking ill of the Lord's Anointed....no?

I don't understand wherein I would be speaking ill of anyone. Gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 for the most part at the surface of the Earth; does stating that fact that mean I am saying the Earth sucks?

[ajax]

Businessmen making business decisions get scrutinized all the time. And that's a good thing.

Why not "our" businessmen?

[log]

Businessmen making business decisions get scrutinized all the time. And that's a good thing.

Why not "our" businessmen?

How do you propose to scrutinize them? Upon what standard?

It seems to me that the only thing that matters is whether they are directed of God in that which they do; if they are so directed, and you oppose, you are cursed. So, how do you propose to examine them to determine whether they are directed of God in that which they do, remembering that whatever standard you set for them shall be applied to you by God?

[jbalm]

Businessmen making business decisions get scrutinized all the time. And that's a good thing.

Why not "our" businessmen?

You mean "God's" business men?

[SamFisher]

What's with the slam on business? When did business become a problem for members of this church, who ought to know full well that the Lord established a constitution that encourages the free market. That is, unless you're part of that "you didn't build that" crowd...

[briznian]

Mormon church earns $7 billion a year from tithing, analysis indicates

Maybe this is one part of what God meant when He declared:
1 Ne. 4:14
14 ...: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

Maybe not.

I'm not certain you can conclude anything regarding the rightness or wrongness of the Church based on dollar amounts and that scripture. A similar scripture was spoken by Alma Jr:

13 O remember, remember, my son Helaman, how strict are the commandments of God. And he said: If ye will keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land—but if ye keep not his commandments ye shall be cut off from his presence.

What is the penalty for NOT keeping the commandments? Its definitely not poverty. I know and know of lots of people who aren't keeping the commandments yet seem to still be "prosper[ing] in the land".

I conclude that nothing can be concluded about anyone or any group based upon their monetary success alone.

[ajax]

Businessmen making business decisions get scrutinized all the time. And that's a good thing.

Why not "our" businessmen?

How do you propose to scrutinize them? Upon what standard?

Upon the standard of the law of common consent as originally intended, not the morphed "yes-man" version.

Just like I use the standard of the constitution to judge our government.

It tough though, I know, with the books closed and all. Proper common consent can only happen with proper transparency.

You mean "God's" business men?

Ah, my bad. Never mind folks, move along.

What's with the slam on business?

Nobody here slammed business. Proper scrutiny is part of business. A healthy part I might add.

Now to be told that scrutinizing business decisions is akin to speaking ill of the Lords anointed, that's another story.

[log]

Businessmen making business decisions get scrutinized all the time. And that's a good thing.

Why not "our" businessmen?

How do you propose to scrutinize them? Upon what standard?

Upon the standard of the law of common consent as originally intended, not the morphed "yes-man" version.

Just like I use the standard of the constitution to judge our government.

It tough though, I know, with the books closed and all. Proper common consent can only happen with proper transparency.

So, it's not done by common consent. And it hasn't been for many decades. They inherited this system, as did we. Now what?

[jbalm]

They could always change it back. It's up to them.

[log]

They could always change it back. It's up to them.

Is it?

[ajax]

So, it's not done by common consent. And it hasn't been for many decades. They inherited this system, as did we. Now what?

Three choices:

1-Shut up and get back in line

2-Be a dick and start calling people names

3-Be part of the burgeoning groundswell of average faithful members, the grassroots, who are expressing concern (their common consent if you will) in a variety of ways with the express hope of education and positively influencing our leaders to restore back that which was removed.

Option 1 and 2 are dumb.
I choose option 3.

[jbalm]

They could always change it back. It's up to them.

Is it?

Yep.

[log]

3-Be part of the burgeoning groundswell of average faithful members, the grassroots, who are expressing concern (their common consent if you will) in a variety of ways with the express hope of education and positively influencing our leaders to restore back that which was removed.

I choose option 3.

Suppose it is the case that the Brethren are doing as they are directed of God. It seems to me that option 3 looks an awful lot like a textbook example of man counseling their fellow man, or, alternatively, of trying to persuade men away from their divinely appointed course.

It might even look like this.

Doctrine and Covenants 121:16
16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

[log]

They could always change it back. It's up to them.

Is it?

Yep.

God has no input?