CCM: If You Don't Know, Don't Condemn.

[log]

I'm going to bring this out of another thread.

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, p. 507-509

The sole issue with CCM is "are they doing as directed." Unless you have it from God, you don't know - either way.

It seems perfectly obvious to me that, unless one has actual knowledge by revelation concerning the matter, but merely beliefs or opinions, it is wise to hold one's peace. If we take no stance, we cannot be harmed, and shall not be judged. If we take a critical stance, and are right, we profit nothing save it be the gratification of our pride. If we take a critical stance, however well-reasoned, and happen to be wrong, we are stripped of the Spirit.

D&C 121
16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

The point of this post is not to say CCM is, or is not, directed of God. It is to say that unless you have direct knowledge, and not simply supposition, that it is not of God, it is wise to hold your peace concerning the matter.

[Hannant]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what these acronyms are.
What are ccm's?

[marc]

City Creek Mall?

[Hannant]

Brain washed.
I'm out of this conversation

[notjamesbond003.5]

ive seen how Satan uses it as tool to divide us.

Was visiting a ward in So Cal where a recent convert actually more of a subversive infiltrator got up in Fast and T meeting. used it a point of contention in her rambling diatribe and told everyone to kiss her behind and stormed out of the building.

I followed her in my testimony and wept telling the congregation..we need to forgive her..pray for her..and figure out what our own personal missions are in this estate.

njb

[ajax]

Since they say no tithes were used and this is simply a business transaction, it deserves the scrutiny that any other business transaction gets. If they can't take scrutiny as "businessmen", but morph that back into "speaking ill of the brethren", I don't think the problem lies with me.

[keep the faith]

Brain washed.
I'm out of this conversation

Wow. Just throw in an ad hominem and run for the exits. 8-| Log has made a very legitimate point here. There are people on this forum who have left the church because of their strong objections to its business dealings . Yet I would venture to guess that not a one of them has actually received a perfect knowledge through personal revelation from God stating to them irrevocably that the Brethren were misguided, corrupted, and lost the spirit of their callings in making the decisions that they did. They just throw out all assortment of suppositions and assumptions and insults not having any personal revelation on the subject of their own. That is the spirit of the accuser that Joseph warned against on multiple occasions. Thanks for pointing that out so well Log.

[SamFisher]

Can anyone articulate how involved the Apostles and presidency are in the business transactions?

I have no problem with businesses owned by the church that grow funds, provide jobs, and make people happy economically. But I don't think the Brethren should be spending time on the business side--or making money from it--but should be doing what Apostles should do.

I just have no idea what they spend their time doing, so I'm not going to throw them under the bus.

If those business are not using tithing money, and those businesses pay tithing and taxes, I think it's great. The Lord prospers us in many ways, including financially, when we obey him. There's not much of a separation between members and the church temporally in this regard.

It is greed that God doesn't like, and the love of money. Not money itself, which is a means to an end.

[Silas]

There has to be a balance in use with the churches resources. It makes sense to have profit generating revenue streams in order to sustain the huge humanitarian projects that the church undertakes. On a small scale we could say that sense family is important I should quit my job and spend all my time with my family, but that would clearly be unwise as my family's well-being depends on the profits I make at my job. Yet it would be foolish to swing to the other side and ignore my family in order to make more money. Are the brethren striking the right balance? I have no idea I don't spend a lot of time with them, but I trust them. I'm sure mistakes are made but I think they are doing a good job.

[Thomas]

We are training to become like God, which means we should be able to think for ourselves. While it is true, we cannot know God's will concerning the mall, without revelation, that doesn't mean we should turn off our brains. As Bruce R, McConkie taught, God will allow or cause the leaders of the church to teach false hoods. This is to test us. Do we accept the false hoods just because of the source? Do we accept the mall just because the brethren approved of it? That is up to each one of us to decide, but God may not give you the answer and still judge you on your opinion of it.

I do not agree with the OP.

[Thomas]

The church was supposed to be run by common consent, which means your opinion does matter or should matter anyway. In pratice, that is nor really taking place and has been replaced with follow like a mindless animal. You should have an opinion on the mall, whether it be right or wrong. You should have the right to voice that opinion, whether it be right or wrong. The leaders should be listening to your opinion, whether it be right or wrong.

[notjamesbond003.5]

I get what you're saying Thomas however I sense alot of the spirit of envy coming from those that oppose the mall, an irrational occupy wall street type mentality.-of sorts.


Remember the poorest in this country are wealthier than 90 per cent of the rest of the world.

Further we should worry about our relationship w our Savior first and foremost storing our riches in heaven and not being preoccupied w how money is being potentially mis managed.


To those that are preoccupied w the 'misappropriation of church funds': instead of posting here on the internet about these allegations perhaps you could be serving in a soup kitchen or at an AIDS Clinic changing bed pans, thereby glorifying your Father in Heaven instead being angry and finding fault here, wouldn't that be a better use of your earthly time?

njb

[Thomas]

I get what you're saying Thomas however I sense alot of the spirit of envy coming from those that oppose the mall, an irrational occupy wall street type mentality.-of sorts.


Remember the poorest in this country are wealthier than 90 per cent of the rest of the world.

Further we should worry about our relationship w our Savior first and foremost storing our riches in heaven and not being preoccupied w how money is being potentially mis managed.


To those that are preoccupied w the 'misappropriation of church funds': instead of posting here on the internet about these allegations perhaps you could be serving in a soup kitchen or at an AIDS Clinic changing bed pans, thereby glorifying your Father in Heaven instead being angry and finding fault here, wouldn't that be a better use of your earthly time?

njb

I agree with what you are saying. It is not an issue I spend much time thinking about. I don't agree with the op though. We all have the right to voice our opinion on how the church is run, inspite of what is so commonly taught about following leaders. It is our church as much as it is the leader's church.

Bruce R McConkie taught that we were instructed, in the pre-existence, on all things. He said we are being tested, now, on what we learned then. It is not a test of loyalty to church leaders. I think what he has taught has the sound of truth to me. We are being tested on such things as our opinion of the mall, what doctrine we believe, if we recognize what our failures as a people are, if we recognize truth and light, instead of recognizing only authority.

[notjamesbond003.5]

good points, if it is grievous to Lord, think about those that will have to answer to Him-hmm?

[Thomas]

I do think we have a responsibilty to sustain the decisions made by the majority, even while voicing our oposition, if we oppose. I think any opposition should be tempered with a loving and kind spirit and should not degrade.

[lemuel]

The church was supposed to be run by common consent, which means your opinion does matter or should matter anyway. In pratice, that is nor really taking place and has been replaced with follow like a mindless animal. You should have an opinion on the mall, whether it be right or wrong. You should have the right to voice that opinion, whether it be right or wrong. The leaders should be listening to your opinion, whether it be right or wrong.

Maybe it should be, but as it stands, the COJCOLDS is a trademark owned by the Corporation of The President of the COJCOLDS, which is a corporation sole owned by the church President.

Nothing we can do about it. Even if they are wrong, there's no reason to judge the management for it. Maybe there's a larger plan in play. The D&C (can't remember where) says Jackson Co. will be redeemed by money or by blood. Maybe the church is trying to save up a trillion dollars to buy back Zion??

Probably not...but maybe?

[Hannant]

The church was supposed to be run by common consent, which means your opinion does matter or should matter anyway. In pratice, that is nor really taking place and has been replaced with follow like a mindless animal. You should have an opinion on the mall, whether it be right or wrong. You should have the right to voice that opinion, whether it be right or wrong. The leaders should be listening to your opinion, whether it be right or wrong.

Maybe it should be, but as it stands, the COJCOLDS is a trademark owned by the Corporation of TCOJCOLDS, which is a corporation sole owned by the church President.

Nothing we can do about it. Even if they are wrong, there's no reason to judge the management for it. Maybe there's a larger plan in play. The D&C (can't remember where) says Jackson Co. will be redeemed by money or by blood. Maybe the church is trying to save up a trillion dollars to buy back Zion??

Probably not...but maybe?

Hang on, what's this business about the church name being a trademark.
I do not quite understand this.
The prophet is a Managing Director and sole director, of a corporate entity that owns the name of the church, or owns the church.

I'm not completely following what you are saying here, what am I a member of?

[lemuel]

I'm honestly not sure either. I think in the late 1800s the federal government disincorporated the CoJCoLDS. It's mostly just legalese, I think.

[Hannant]

So what am I a member of?
Or is there no such thing as a "church" after all?

[freedomforall]

Mormon church earns $7 billion a year from tithing, analysis indicates

Maybe this is one part of what God meant when He declared:
1 Ne. 4:14
14 ...: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

Maybe not.

[onandagus]

Mormon church earns $7 billion a year from tithing, analysis indicates

Maybe this is one part of what God meant when He declared:
1 Ne. 4:14
14 ...: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

Maybe not.

I realize this is probably tongue in cheek. However I find myself occasionally having to remind some friends and family members that the gospel of wealth is false. Otherwise Goldman Sachs, the Gambino family Pablo Escobar and the rich man (Christ's parable) are much more faithful than Mother Teresa, St Benedict and Christ, and the Catholic church is the one true way to god.

I think it was Elder Packer who spoke a couple of conferences ago about how we need to do a better job helping our members even if it affects other programs. I hope we can do better as a people and as a church helping even the 90,000 chronically hungry and malnourished LDS children almost 1000 of which die every year from hunger. I pray some of the 7Billion can be put to better use than highend shopping malls in the future.

[dauser]

The Church is not a democracy...It is a monarchy, Jesus Christ being KING.

It does not need your vote or your opinion. You get to either vote for it or contend against it.

Remember... The true Church is the main kill target of the Satanic New World Order weaponized monetary system.

Remember...The meek will inherit the earth...a very impressive corporate takeover...City Creek Mall is nothing but...a beginning.

TPTB know they are dealing with someone they killed... was dead...and now is alive...and running the new show....the old show is about over and so is their desperation.

[Thomas]

The Church is not a democracy...It is a monarchy, Jesus Christ being KING.

It does not need your vote or your opinion. You get to either vote for it or contend against it.

Remember... The true Church is the main kill target of the Satanic New World Order weaponized monetary system.

Remember...The meek will inherit the earth...a very impressive corporate takeover...City Creek Mall is nothing but...a beginning.

TPTB know they are dealing with someone they killed... was dead...and now is alive...and running the new show....the old show is about over and so is their desperation.

Actually, the church was setup to run on the common consent of the members. While it is true that many have your opinion of how things should work, it is not what the Lord established. Read D&C 107. The members are suposed to pick the First Presidency. Christ never has been a dictator. He even respected the authority of the Pharisees because the Jews sustained them. He did not demand their seat and start barking orders.

[freedomforall]

The Church is not a democracy...It is a monarchy, Jesus Christ being KING.

It does not need your vote or your opinion. You get to either vote for it or contend against it.

Remember... The true Church is the main kill target of the Satanic New World Order weaponized monetary system.

Remember...The meek will inherit the earth...a very impressive corporate takeover...City Creek Mall is nothing but...a beginning.

TPTB know they are dealing with someone they killed... was dead...and now is alive...and running the new show....the old show is about over and so is their desperation.

Actually, the church was setup to run on the common consent of the members. While it is true that many have your opinion of how things should work, it is not what the Lord established. Read D&C 107. The members are suposed to pick the First Presidency. Christ never has been a dictator. He even respected the authority of the Pharisees because the Jews sustained them. He did not demand their seat and start barking orders.

Let's break this down some.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

chosen by the body = the body of the Melchizedek Priesthood, not the whole church
upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church = everyone able to sustain the new President and his Councillors as church leadership.

To me it is not the whole membership that decides, or picks, who the new Pres, will be.

[Hannant]

These threads about money and wealth and the needy do my head in. Now I'm reading we members are meant to have a say in running things.
Common consent?
Where have I been?