How did we get here?

[Epistemology]

just say you don't know if you don't or you don't have an answer for the contradiction

see, we are talking about the distraction again (red herring)

[Epistemology]

in case you missed it:

the truth is, we do trust in the words of man, like Nephi and Alma and John because

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

[MelissaM]

in case you missed it:

the truth is, we do trust in the words of man, like Nephi and Alma and John because

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

You have to make sure that they have spoken as His servants and the only way to do so is to ask God. You should have to ask God as if your salvation depends on it, because it does. If you want to continue to play circular, that's cool. I'm done talking now. There will be no further response.

[Epistemology]

in case you missed it:

the truth is, we do trust in the words of man, like Nephi and Alma and John because

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

You have to make sure that they have spoken as His servants and the only way to do so is to ask God. You should have to ask God as if your salvation depends on it, because it does. If you want to continue to play circular, that's cool. I'm done talking now. There will be no further response.

No...

the statement was "trust in men are cursed"


Nephi is a man
Jeremiah is a man
etc.
your statement involves qualifications, log's does not

anyway...

I understand his point of view now. We can trust in man if God tells us to.

My confusion is log's position has been to trust NO MAN, but he trusts in men in scriptures (I say this because he has revealed he only trusts the scriptures), so it seems he trusts NO MAN except "scripture men".

my question is simply, why?

[inquirringmind]

FOL'LOW, v.t.

1. To go after or behind; to walk, ride or move behind, but in the same direction. Soldiers will usually follow a brave officer.
2. To pursue; to chase; as an enemy, or as game.
3. To accompany; to attend in a journey.
And Rebekah arose, and her damsels, and they rode on the camels, and followed the man. Gen. 24.
4. To accompany; to be of the same company; to attend, for any purpose. Luke 5.
5. To succeed in order of time; to come after; as a storm is followed by a calm.
Signs following signs lead on the mighty year.
6. To be consequential; to result from, as effect from a cause. Intemperance is often followed by disease or poverty, or by both.
7. To result from, as an inference or deduction. It follows from these facts that the accused is guilty.
8. To pursue with the eye; to keep the eyes fixed on a moving body. He followed or his eyes followed the ship, till it was beyond sight.
He followed with his eyes the fleeting shade.
9. To imitate; to copy; as, to follow a pattern or model; to follow fashion.
10. To embrace; to adopt and maintain; to have or entertain like opinions; to think or believe like another; as, to follow the opinions and tenets of a philsophic sect; to follow Plato.
11. To obey; to observe; to practice; to act in conformity to. It is our duty to follow the commands of Christ. Good soldiers follow the orders of their general; good servants follow the directions of their master.
12. To pursue as an object of desire; to endeavor to obtain.
Follow peace with all men. Heb. 12.
13. To use; to practice; to make the chief business; as, to follow the trade of a carpenter; to follow the profession of law.
14. To adhere to; to side with.
The house of Judah followed David. 2Sam. 2.
15. To adhere to; to honor; to worship; to serve.
If the Lord be God, follow him. 1Kings 18.
16. To be led or guided by.
Wo to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing. Ezek. 13.
17. To move on in the same course or direction; to be guided by; as, to follow a track or course.
FOL'LOW, v.i.

Where did you get this?

[log]

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/follow" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Epistemology]

I will do you this one last favor, then go back to ignoring your posts.

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[inquirringmind]

I don't think I have said any of the Church is under condemnation for "trusting in the arm of flesh."

You really don't think you've said (publicly or privately) that the Church is fallen, and most of the membership is under condemnation (for trusting in the arm of the flesh)?

I think I just got done saying this.

I don't think I have said any of the Church is under condemnation for "trusting in the arm of flesh." If you could provide a citation where I did say exactly that, in those words, I would appreciate it.

I have cited Joseph Smith to the effect that those who depend upon the prophet are darkened in their minds; I have cited Brigham Young to much the same effect in the OP; I have cited Jeremiah to the effect that those who trust in men are cursed; I have cited Nephi to the effect that those who trust in the arm of flesh are cursed; I have cited D&C 84 to the effect that the Church is under condemnation for hypocrisy concerning the Book of Mormon; I have cited Ezra Taft Benson to the effect that the condemnation of D&C 84 is still applicable to us today; but I do not recall making the precise statement you are apparently putting in my mouth.

If, therefore, I have not said what you are attributing to me, I would greatly appreciate it if you would please cease from attributing it to me.

If I put words in your mouth I apologize.

[lemuel]

I explained it: Without revelation it doesn't matter who you follow.


"Gotcha!" Again.

I asked if you would explain what

Without revelation it doesn't matter who you follow.

means

which you have not. you instead told me to ask God.

just say you don't know if you don't or you don't have an answer for the contradiction

see, we are talking about the distraction again (red herring)

Wow. I will do you this one last favor, then go back to ignoring your posts.

without

WITHOUT, prep.

1. Not with; as without success.
2. In a state of destitution or absence from.
There is no living with thee nor without thee.
3. In a state of destitution or absence from.
There is no living with thee nor without thee.
4. Beyond; not within.
Eternity, before the world and after, is without our reach.
5. Supposing the negation or omission of.
Without the separation of the two monarchies, the most advantageous terms from the French must end in our destruction.
6. Independent of; not by the use of. Men like to live without labor.
Wise men will do it without a law.
7. On the outside of; as without the gate; without doors.
8. With exemption from. That event cannot happen without great damage to our interests.
9. Unless; except.
Without, when it precedes a sentence or member of a sentence, has been called a conjunction. This is a mistake. You will not enjoy health, without you use much exercise. In this sentence, without is a preposition still, but followed by a member of a sentence, instead of a single noun. It has no property of a connective or conjunction, and does not fall within the definition. You will not enjoy health, this fact following being removed, or not taking place; you use exercise. This use of without, is nearly superseded by unless and except, among good writers and speakers; but is common in popular discourse or parlance.
WITHOUT, adv.

1. Not on the inside; not within.
These were from without the growing miseries.
2. Out of doors.
3. Externally; not in the mind.
Without were fightings, within were fears. 2 Corinthians 7.

revelation

REVELA'TION, n. [L. revelatus, revelo. See Reveal.]

1. The act of disclosing or discovering to others what was before unknown to them; appropriately, the disclosure or communication of truth to men by God himself, or by his authorized agents, the prophets and apostles.
How that by revelation he made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in few words. Eph. 3. 2Cor. 12.
2. That which is revealed; appropriately, the sacred truths which God has communicated to man for his instruction and direction. The revelations of God are contained in the Old and New Testament.
3. The Apocalypse; the last book of the sacred canon, containing the prophecies of St. John.

it

IT, pron. [L. id.]

1. A substitute or pronoun of the neuter gender, sometimes called demonstrative, and standing for any thing except males and females, "Keep thy heart with all diligence,for out of it are the issues of life." Prov. 9. Here it is the substitute for heart.
2. It is much used as the nominative case or word to verbs called impersonal; as it rains; it snows. In this case,there is no determinate thing to which it can be referred.
In other cases, it may be referred to matter, affair, or some other word. Is it come to this?
3. Very often, it is used to introduce a sentence, preceding a verb as a nominative, but referring to a clause or distinct member of the sentence. "It is well ascertained, that the figure of the earth is an oblate spheroid." What is well ascertained?
The answer will show: the figure of the earth is an oblate spheroid; it [that] is well ascertained. Here it represents the clause of the sentence,"the figure of the earth," &c. If the order of the sentence is inverted, the use of it is superseded. The figure of the earth is an oblate spheroid; that is well ascertained.

It, like that, is often a substitute for a sentence or clause of a sentence.
4. It often begins a sentence, when a personal pronoun, or the name of a person, or a masculine noun follows. It is I: be not afraid. It was Judas who betrayed Christ. When a question is asked, it follows the verb; as, who was it that betrayed Christ?
5. It is used also for the state of a person or affair.
How is it with our general?
6. It is used after intransitive verbs very indefinitely and sometimes ludicrously, but rarely in an elevated style.
If Abraham brought all with him, it is not probable he meant to walk it back for his pleasure.
The Lacedemonians, at the straits of Thermopylae, when their arms failed them, fought it out with nails and teeth.
Whether the charmer sinner it, or saint it.

does

DOES, the third person of the verb do, indicative mode, present tense, contracted from doeth.

not

NOT, adv. [See Naught.]

1. A word that expreses negation, denial or refusal; as, he will no go; will you remain? I will not. In the first member of a sentence, it may be followed by nor or neither; as not for a price nor reward; I was not in sfety, neither had I rest.
2. With the substantive verb in the following phrase, it denies being, or denotes extinction of existence.
Thine eyes are open upon me, and I am not. Job 7.

matter

MAT'TER, n. [L. materia; Heb. to measure; L. metior.]

1. Substance excreted from living animal bodies; that which is thrown our of discharged in a tumor,boil or abscess; pus; purulent substance collected in an abscess, the effect of suppuration more or less perfect; as digested matter; sanious matter.
2. Body; substance extended; that which is visible or tangible; as earth, wood, stone, air, vapor, water.
3. In a more general and philosophic sense, the substance of which all bodies are composed; the substratum of sensible qualities, though the parts composing the substratum may not be visible or tangible.
Matter is usually divided by philosophical writers into four kinds or classes; solid, liquid; aeriform, and imponderable. Solid substances are those whose parts firmly cohere and resist impression, as wood or stone; liquids have free motion among their parts, and easily yield to impression, as water and wine. Aeriform substances are elastic fluids, called vapors and gases, as air and oxygen gas. The imponderable substances are destitute of weight, as light, caloric, electricity, and magnetism.
4. Subject; thing treated; that about which we write or speak; that which employs thought or excites emotion; as, this is matter of praise, of gratitude, or of astonishment.
Son of God, Savior of men, thy name
Shall be the copious matter of my song.
5. The very thing supposed or intended.
He grants the deluge to have come so very near the matter, that few escaped.
6. Affair; business; event; thing; course of things. Matters have succeeded well thus far; observe how matters stand; thus the matter rests at present; thus the matter ended.
To help the matter,the alchimists call in many vanities from astrology.
Some young female seems to have carried matters so far, that she is ripe for asking advice.
7. Cause of any event, as of any disturbance, of a disease, or of a difficulty. When a moving machine stops suddenly, we ask, what is the matter? When a person is ill, we ask, what is the matter? When a tumult or quarrel takes place, we ask, what is the matter?
8. Subject of complaint; suit; demand.
If the matter should be tried by duel between two champions--
Every great matter they shall bring to thee, but every small matter they shall judge-- Ex.18.
9. Import; consequence; importance; moment.
A prophet some, and some a poet cry,
No matter which, so neither of them lie.
10. Space of time; a portion of distance.

I have thoughts to tarry a small matter.
Away he goes, a matter of seven miles--
[In these last senses,the use of matter is now vulgar.]

Upon the matter, considering the whole; taking all things into view. This phrase is now obsolete; but in lieu of it, we sometimes use, upon the whole matter.

Waller, with Sir William Balfour, exceeded in horse, but were, upon the whole matter, equal in foot.
Matter of record, that which is recorded, or which may be proved by record.

MAT'TER, v.i. To be of importance; to import; used with it, this, that, or what. This matters not; that matters not; chiefly used in negative phrases; as, what matters it?

It matters not how they are called, so we know who they are.
1. To maturate; to form pus; to collect, as matter in an abscess.
Each slight sore mattereth. [Little used.]
[We now use maturate.]
MAT'TER, v.t. To regard. [Not used.]

who

WHO, pron. relative. pron. hoo. [L. Who is undoubtedly a contracted word in English as in Latin. See What and Wight.]

1. Who is a pronoun relative, always referring to persons. It forms whose in the genitive or possessive case, answering to the L. Cujus, and whom in the objective or accusative case. Who, whose and whom, are in both numbers. Thus we say, the man or woman who was with us; the men or women who were with us; the men or women whom we saw.
2. Which of many. Are you satisfied who did the mischief?
3. It is much used in asking questions; as, who am I? Who art thou? Who is this? Who are these? In this case, the purpose is to obtain the name or designation of the person or character.
4. It has sometimes a disjunctive sense.
There thou tellst of kings, and who aspire; who fall, who rise, who triumph, who do moan.
5. Whose is of all genders. Whose book is this?
This question whose solution I require--
As who should say, elliptically for as one who should say.

you

YOU, pron. Yu. [You has been considered as in the plural only, and is so treated in the Saxon grammar. But from the Belgic dialect, it appears to be in the singular as well as the plural, and our universal popular usage, in applying it to a single person with a verb in the singular number, is correct. Yourself is in the singular number.]

1. The pronoun of the second person, in the nominative or objective case. In familiar language, it is applied to an individual, as thou is in the solemn style. In the plural, it is used in the solemn style in the objective case.
In vain you tell your parting lover, you wish fair winds may waft him over.
He that despiseth you, despiseth me. Luke 10.
2. You is used, like on in French, for any one. This at a distance looks like a rock; but as you approach it, you see a little cabin.

follow

FOL'LOW, v.t.

1. To go after or behind; to walk, ride or move behind, but in the same direction. Soldiers will usually follow a brave officer.
2. To pursue; to chase; as an enemy, or as game.
3. To accompany; to attend in a journey.
And Rebekah arose, and her damsels, and they rode on the camels, and followed the man. Gen. 24.
4. To accompany; to be of the same company; to attend, for any purpose. Luke 5.
5. To succeed in order of time; to come after; as a storm is followed by a calm.
Signs following signs lead on the mighty year.
6. To be consequential; to result from, as effect from a cause. Intemperance is often followed by disease or poverty, or by both.
7. To result from, as an inference or deduction. It follows from these facts that the accused is guilty.
8. To pursue with the eye; to keep the eyes fixed on a moving body. He followed or his eyes followed the ship, till it was beyond sight.
He followed with his eyes the fleeting shade.
9. To imitate; to copy; as, to follow a pattern or model; to follow fashion.
10. To embrace; to adopt and maintain; to have or entertain like opinions; to think or believe like another; as, to follow the opinions and tenets of a philsophic sect; to follow Plato.
11. To obey; to observe; to practice; to act in conformity to. It is our duty to follow the commands of Christ. Good soldiers follow the orders of their general; good servants follow the directions of their master.
12. To pursue as an object of desire; to endeavor to obtain.
Follow peace with all men. Heb. 12.
13. To use; to practice; to make the chief business; as, to follow the trade of a carpenter; to follow the profession of law.
14. To adhere to; to side with.
The house of Judah followed David. 2Sam. 2.
15. To adhere to; to honor; to worship; to serve.
If the Lord be God, follow him. 1Kings 18.
16. To be led or guided by.
Wo to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing. Ezek. 13.
17. To move on in the same course or direction; to be guided by; as, to follow a track or course.
FOL'LOW, v.i.

1. To come after another.
The famine - shall follow close after you. Jer. 42.
2. To attend; to accompany.
3. To be posterior in time; as following ages.
4. To be consequential, as effect to cause. From such measures, great mischiefs must follow.
5. To result, as an inference. The facts may be admitted, but the inference drawn from them does not follow.
To follow on, to continue pursuit or endeavor; to persevere.
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord.
Hosea 6.

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