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On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 12:21 pm
by ajax
Who do we worship? The Father or the Son? Both?

Does it matter?

"Worship the Father in the name of Jesus" (Jacob 4 / D&C 18)

Bruce R was adamant that we do NOT worship the Son
http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=602" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However when the Nephites fell down and worshipped Jesus, He didn't object.

I don't think I've ever read Jesus saying "worship me", unlike Satan who begged Moses to worship him. Jesus always seems to be pointing to the Father.

But, as a follower of Jesus, I "try His works to do". I believe in Him. I have faith in Him. I seek Him. I beg Him for mercy. I think of Jesus during the sacrament. I love Him. Is this not worship?

Since the Father and Son are one, does it really matter? Is it a moot point?

I remember sitting in a gospel essentials class with a baptist convert and the teacher was adamant that we do not worship Jesus, only the Father. This was a shocking statement for the baptist convert, and the rest of the class was spent trying to explain it.

As a passing thought (well not really passing, my scripture study today was Jacob 4 and D&C 18), just curious what ya'll think and maybe some responses will help clarify it for others.

Re: On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 12:29 pm
by log
ajax wrote: However when the Nephites fell down and worshipped Jesus, He didn't object.
No, but his reaction was very curious, I think.
22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.
It's like he's justifying them in praying to him, almost as if acknowledging this is not quite the norm.

Re: On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 12:41 pm
by ajax
Thanks log. Where is that scripture?

The two scriptures I had in mind were 3 Nephi 11:17 and 3 Nephi 17:10.
17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.
10 And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet with their tears.

Re: On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 12:59 pm
by log
3 Nephi 19:22

Re: On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 1:02 pm
by natasha
ajax wrote:Thanks log. Where is that scripture?

The two scriptures I had in mind were 3 Nephi 11:17 and 3 Nephi 17:10.
17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.
10 And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet with their tears.
Perhaps in utter gratitude for what He had done for us (the atonement)...and that He is our advocate with the Father.

Re: On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 2:36 pm
by embryopocket
Wow, I have never heard that before. Bruce R. McConkie he has taught so many falsehoods that I have a really hard time now believing anything that he has ever said. I believe that the scriptures teach that we worship both the Father and the Son. I consider myself bitheistic, the two Gods receiving my worship being Elohim and Jehovah.

I pray to Elohim in the name of the Son, because He is my advocate with the Father.

I also pray to Jesus and talk with him directly. I figure since this communication face-to-face is what receiving the Second Comforter is, and should be the goal of every Saint, doing it via prayer could be considered practice. :)

Re: On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 2:43 pm
by TZONE
Someone mentioned john pontius's article on how we should give most the thanks to Christ. Heavenly father really does want us to glorify the son. He gave Christall honr that we may glorify and honor Christ. so most the things we give thanks to HF for, should be directed to his son. HF gave us life through is Son. his son did the work so that we have that life.

We are to become the Sons of Christ through adoption.

I agree, I heard a story, it was truman g madsen I think, but the story said, (butchered) try praying to jesus Christ. I think the person did and had a very spiritual experience.

As to the falsehoods, I am at least glad he was willing to open his mouth. I would rather have someone say too much that could be false than say so little you don't learn anything.

Re: On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 3:01 pm
by jdawg1012
This is something I have thought about a few times. In church I have always just heard, it was a one time thing that happened with the Nephites.

Now, I may be being presumptuous, but I don't know if I believe that explanation (sorry!)
Since the Father and Son are one, does it really matter? Is it a moot point?
I have often thought about this exact idea. This may be my stupid and flawed mortal standing, but let's think of it maybe in mortal terms. Let's say you have a child. And you child has a friend, who's having a birthday party. And you go out and pick a present, and wrap it, and your child gives it to the other child. When that other child opens the gift and says, "Thank you, thank you Johnny (Annie, whatever," are you going to be offended that little Jane or Jimmy thanked your child and not you? You bought the present, you did the work, etc. Would you care?

I try and relate all of the divine to mortal parenthood. The Bible Dictionary, of prayers says this:
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/prayer

As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are His children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7:7–11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other.
I know how I talked with my (mortal) father. I have tried to pattern that with Heavenly Father, maybe with a little more respect (maybe not when I'm upset).

If that's not some evidence, then allow me to reference Alma:
Alma 36:

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am bin the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!
Alma cried out to Jesus. I don't know if that constitutes "worshiping" Him, but I know what I've felt when crying out to Jesus. While I do not specifically "worship" or rather pray to Jesus, I try to recognize Him. Ultimately they really are One. I have had the privilege of working on things with others, like say volunteering with the Elderly. Sometimes they are so happy, and they say things like, "Thank you all for coming, bless you all" (etc.). I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that in that moment of unity and love, I didn't care who the old lady (gentleman, whichever), was looking at, or smiling at. All I cared about was them being happy.

Now God's ways and thoughts are higher than my ways and thoughts, but I honestly cannot comprehend a different reaction. To Two Beings that look the same, act the same, and believe the same, I really don't think that They care.

Frankly, I think that Jesus, in perfect humility, always defers to the Father. But, I believe exactly the same about the Father deferring to the Son. God, the Father, introduces His Son, and States, "Hear ye Him." But you know what, Jesus also gave us a parable:
Mark 12:

1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.

5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.

8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

11 This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.
Notice, in the Parable, referring to a degree between God the Father and Jesus, the Father states, "They WILL reverence my Son." I think that they have a mutual love, appreciation and respect, that transcends what we yet understand.

So, while I believe that the majority of our worship and devotion is to the Father, I find no harm in reverencing His Son. It's imperfect, but that's what I believe. I hope something here may be useful to anyone else. I've tried to understand as best I can, and what I come up with is full circle, "God IS love."

Re: On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 3:19 pm
by Simon
I think it really doesn't make a difference wether we pray to the father, or to the son. In fact, all the israelites prayed to Jehova, or Christ. The father and the son are one.

Every time an angel appears and people bow themselves before them the angel would not allow that. When people bow before Christ, they worshiped him and he allowes it. I know many people that have had bad encounters and cried out "Jesus, help me" and it worked because of their faith in him

An even more initeresting question is wether prayers get answerd by God if people pray with a sincere heart, but not addressing him personally. For example will God answer a muslim if he is sincerely seeking for truth but praying to Allah?

Re: On Worship

Posted: November 12th, 2013, 7:21 pm
by Thomas
embryopocket wrote:Wow, I have never heard that before. Bruce R. McConkie he has taught so many falsehoods that I have a really hard time now believing anything that he has ever said. I believe that the scriptures teach that we worship both the Father and the Son. I consider myself bitheistic, the two Gods receiving my worship being Elohim and Jehovah.

I pray to Elohim in the name of the Son, because He is my advocate with the Father.

I also pray to Jesus and talk with him directly. I figure since this communication face-to-face is what receiving the Second Comforter is, and should be the goal of every Saint, doing it via prayer could be considered practice. :)
Just so you know, Elohim is plural for El, which means God in Hebrew. Elohim is the Gods. It does not mean our Father in Heaven.