LDS Freedom Forum

Faith Yeilds Power in the Priesthood by John K. Carmack

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the priesthood’s dynamic power source. By failing to put faith first in our callings, we reduce the priesthood’s light and power. Other obstacles also block its beneficial rays.

Oliver Cowdery thought he could translate under the flickering light of a candle. The Lord instructed him, “Remember that without faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith.” (D&C 8:10.)

Past priesthood leaders such as Peter, Paul, Joseph, and Brigham accomplished amazing results in their callings. How? They all did it with faith. They had no computers or fax machines. Their power depended on faith. Jesus often answered pleas for his miraculous intervention, “According to your faith be it unto you.” (See Matt. 9:29; Matt 15:28.)

Faith is the source of priesthood power. We often think of faith as nothing more than just belief that moves us to act. It is more than that. Faith is a source of power. In other words, faith can allow us to affect things that are outside of our personal control.

Doctrine & Covenants 121:41

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

Faith and the power to persuade are linked together. When you can persuade someone or something to do your will, then you have righteous power over them. Your power lasts only as long as you continue to persuade them. Faith is essential in the ability to persuade. If you do not have faith that the person you are trying to persuade will do your will, you have no hope of gaining righteous power over them. In fact, you have no power at all over them.

Looked at in reverse, you can see that our Savior must also have faith in us. If he did not, he would have no ability to persuade us to follow him. What he asks for in return is for us to also have faith in him.

Oddly, I never read of priesthood power performing miracles in the scriptures, now that I think about it.

18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

20 The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, agreeable to the covenants and commandments.

On the other hand, it appears all miracles are wrought by faith, with no reference at all to priesthood.

log wrote:Oddly, I never read of priesthood power performing miracles in the scriptures, now that I think about it.

18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

20 The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, agreeable to the covenants and commandments.

On the other hand, it appears all miracles are wrought by faith, with no reference at all to priesthood.

Thanks for pointing this out. I am just realizing this. Its interesting in the early days othe church, the apostles went out doing missionary work and baptizing people BEFORE they had the aaronic priesthood. Apparently their records are still on the church too? Well thats indeed is interesting. Authority by the holy ghost via their faith?

TBMormon wrote:Faith Yeilds Power in the Priesthood by John K. Carmack

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the priesthood’s dynamic power source. By failing to put faith first in our callings, we reduce the priesthood’s light and power. Other obstacles also block its beneficial rays.

Oliver Cowdery thought he could translate under the flickering light of a candle. The Lord instructed him, “Remember that without faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith.” (D&C 8:10.)

Past priesthood leaders such as Peter, Paul, Joseph, and Brigham accomplished amazing results in their callings. How? They all did it with faith. They had no computers or fax machines. Their power depended on faith. Jesus often answered pleas for his miraculous intervention, “According to your faith be it unto you.” (See Matt. 9:29; Matt 15:28.)

Faith is the source of priesthood power. We often think of faith as nothing more than just belief that moves us to act. It is more than that. Faith is a source of power. In other words, faith can allow us to affect things that are outside of our personal control.

Doctrine & Covenants 121:41

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

Faith and the power to persuade are linked together. When you can persuade someone or something to do your will, then you have righteous power over them. Your power lasts only as long as you continue to persuade them. Faith is essential in the ability to persuade. If you do not have faith that the person you are trying to persuade will do your will, you have no hope of gaining righteous power over them. In fact, you have no power at all over them.

Looked at in reverse, you can see that our Savior must also have faith in us. If he did not, he would have no ability to persuade us to follow him. What he asks for in return is for us to also have faith in him.

Thanks, Perhaps faith and honor go together? Honor gives one respect by "longsuffering..." etc. So that helps that link?

Too bad these words aren't in our scriptures anymore to teach us more fully and clearly of faith.

Lectures on Faith - Lecture 1

15. By this we understand that the principle of power
which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were
framed, was faith ; and that it is by reason of this principle of
power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist ; so that
all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason
of faith as it existed in Him.

16. Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds
would never have been framed neither would man have been
formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works,
and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well
as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute — for it is an
attribute — from the Deity, and he would cease to exist.

TZONE wrote:

TBMormon wrote:Faith Yeilds Power in the Priesthood by John K. Carmack

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the priesthood’s dynamic power source. By failing to put faith first in our callings, we reduce the priesthood’s light and power. Other obstacles also block its beneficial rays.

Oliver Cowdery thought he could translate under the flickering light of a candle. The Lord instructed him, “Remember that without faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith.” (D&C 8:10.)

Past priesthood leaders such as Peter, Paul, Joseph, and Brigham accomplished amazing results in their callings. How? They all did it with faith. They had no computers or fax machines. Their power depended on faith. Jesus often answered pleas for his miraculous intervention, “According to your faith be it unto you.” (See Matt. 9:29; Matt 15:28.)

Faith is the source of priesthood power. We often think of faith as nothing more than just belief that moves us to act. It is more than that. Faith is a source of power. In other words, faith can allow us to affect things that are outside of our personal control.

Doctrine & Covenants 121:41

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

Faith and the power to persuade are linked together. When you can persuade someone or something to do your will, then you have righteous power over them. Your power lasts only as long as you continue to persuade them. Faith is essential in the ability to persuade. If you do not have faith that the person you are trying to persuade will do your will, you have no hope of gaining righteous power over them. In fact, you have no power at all over them.

Looked at in reverse, you can see that our Savior must also have faith in us. If he did not, he would have no ability to persuade us to follow him. What he asks for in return is for us to also have faith in him.

Thanks, Perhaps faith and honor go together? Honor gives one respect by "longsuffering..." etc. So that helps that link?

Interesting idea. Can you explain more about the link between honor and longsuffering?

log wrote:Oddly, I never read of priesthood power performing miracles in the scriptures, now that I think about it.

18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

20 The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, agreeable to the covenants and commandments.

On the other hand, it appears all miracles are wrought by faith, with no reference at all to priesthood.

Good point. I would agree that miracles are based on faith rather than priesthood. Otherwise Jesus would not have been concerned with whether or not people had faith.

The point is, however, that priesthood power originates from faith. If you do not have faith, you cannot have priesthood power. It is a call to all who hold the priesthood to ensure that they have the faith to do what duty requires.

That's what I'm saying - there is no such thing as "priesthood power," beyond that listed in the citations. Every other power is explicitly sourced to faith.

Moreover, and this is interesting, there's nothing in that list, other than the administration of the Aaronic ordinances and spiritual blessings of the Church - the baptism by fire and administration of the sacrament, which are supposed to be the apostle's purview, not elders generally (D&C 20:38-44) - that is closed to women.

There is no such thing as priesthood power? If priesthood is not power, what is it? What is it that we are offering the men in the church when we ordain them to the priesthood? Membership in a club?

Just because faith is the basis of the source of power does not mean there is no priesthood power. Moreover, I think discussing whether or not priesthood is a power is not quite to the point. The point was that faith is the source of power, call it priesthood or not. Which is what both of us seem to be saying. Am I wrong?

TBMormon wrote:There is no such thing as priesthood power? If priesthood is not power, what is it? What is it that we are offering the men in the church when we ordain them to the priesthood? Membership in a club?

Apparently, priesthood is, indeed, membership in a club. According to D&C 107:18-20 Aaronic priesthood is supposed to put you in contact with angels, and Melchizedek priesthood is supposed to put you in the presence of the Gods. If one doesn't bear these fruits, it calls into question whether one has priesthood authority and power, since they are apparently one and the same.

Just because faith is the basis of the source of power does not mean there is no priesthood power. Moreover, I think discussing whether or not priesthood is a power is not quite to the point. The point was that faith is the source of power, call it priesthood or not. Which is what both of us seem to be saying. Am I wrong?

I'm taking D&C 107:18-20 at face value. That is the official definition of the priesthoods' authorities and powers. And everything else is properly ascribed not to priesthood, but to faith, and there is no gender division in faith.

Indeed, I have been wondering at our practice of blessing or attempting to heal "by the power of the Melchizedek priesthood," when it has nothing to do with such things, as seen by the scriptures. I have been wondering why we forbid women, sometimes on pain of excommunication, from exercising faith unto healings and miracles, even by the laying of hands. Anyone remember that old movie, Legacy (about 48 minutes in)?



Anyways. Everyone's gotta figure this stuff out for themselves.

log, forgive me if this is abrasive, but you seem determined to contradict me. You are picking at my words, trying it seems, to prove me wrong on any point possible, when it seems to me that we actually agree on the matter.

I am not saying that power doesn't come from mere faith without priesthood involved. I am not saying that women cannot perform miracles by the power of faith. All I am saying is that power in the priesthood comes from faith. That is all. It is quite a powerful principle, if you ask me, and one you seem to have missed entirely in your attempt to prove a point that has not been contended.

The problem for me is that you are presenting the matter as though I am in conflict with you and therefore any meaningful discussion has been made impossible. You are misinterpreting my words because you have automatically assumed that we are on two different sides of an issue. If you want to discuss how women can perform miracles, then that is perfectly acceptable and certainly an interesting topic. But the way you have presented your case here automatically pits us against one another and so instead of discussion, it turns to a volley of offenses and defenses.

I would love to discuss this statement from the OP:

Looked at in reverse, you can see that our Savior must also have faith in us. If he did not, he would have no ability to persuade us to follow him. What he asks for in return is for us to also have faith in him.

I think it is a powerful idea. It is supported beautifully by jockeybox's quote:

15. By this we understand that the principle of power
which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were
framed, was faith ; and that it is by reason of this principle of
power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist ; so that
all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason
of faith as it existed in Him.

16. Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds
would never have been framed neither would man have been
formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works,
and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well
as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute — for it is an
attribute — from the Deity, and he would cease to exist.

Apparently the power that Christ had over the elements was due to his faith in them. Apparently he even formed man through faith. It seems to me that this is the same power by which he leads other people, according to their agency.

Now, if you would like to add how women have access to faith just as much as men do, then I see no problem with that. Even if you want to address the matter of how women are generally viewed in the church, then please do so. But when you continually misinterpret what I am saying, assuming that I am implying that women have no power when I have not so much as addressed the matter of women, then it is impossible to have a decent conversation. I simply ask that you do not read in meanings to my words that I have not put there myself.

Now, would you care to discuss the matter of faith as a principle of power? Or would you prefer to continue picking apart my words?

D&C 121:36
That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Priesthood is authority, the right to act.

Power is God's ability to act.

This power is only made available to man on conditions of righteousness.

Thus, power in the priesthood exists when a man possesses both the right and ability to act.

TBMormon wrote:log, forgive me if this is abrasive, but you seem determined to contradict me. You are picking at my words, trying it seems, to prove me wrong on any point possible, when it seems to me that we actually agree on the matter.

I am not saying that power doesn't come from mere faith without priesthood involved. I am not saying that women cannot perform miracles by the power of faith. All I am saying is that power in the priesthood comes from faith. That is all. It is quite a powerful principle, if you ask me, and one you seem to have missed entirely in your attempt to prove a point that has not been contended.

I hope you can understand what I am saying.

Question: What is the power and authority of the priesthood? What does "power in the priesthood" consist of?

D&C 107:18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church [in context, baptizing by fire and the administration of the sacrament]—

19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.

20 The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, agreeable to the covenants and commandments.

So, when we speak of "power in the priesthood," what are we properly talking about? If it goes beyond those things listed above, then are we talking about "power in the priesthood"?

If you think I am attacking you, or saying you're wrong, then you have read an attack into my words. I didn't say anything like that.

As for faith, honestly, there's really nothing to discuss about it. Either you have it or you don't. If you have it, it is known to you, as well as how you obtained it. That is a more interesting topic to discuss, I think - how faith is acquired.

Sorry, perhaps it was I that misunderstood what you were saying. Perhaps I got a little too caught up in the club comment. Let me go back to this:

log wrote:That's what I'm saying - there is no such thing as "priesthood power," beyond that listed in the citations. Every other power is explicitly sourced to faith.

Moreover, and this is interesting, there's nothing in that list, other than the administration of the Aaronic ordinances and spiritual blessings of the Church - the baptism by fire and administration of the sacrament, which are supposed to be the apostle's purview, not elders generally (D&C 20:38-44) - that is closed to women.

So it seems to me that you are saying that all power in the scriptures is attributed to faith and that only certain priesthood duties are excluded from women. Is that correct?

TBMormon wrote: So it seems to me that you are saying that all power in the scriptures is attributed to faith and that only certain priesthood duties are excluded from women. Is that correct?

That is what I seem to see from the scriptures, yes.

Ok, now that we understand that point at least, I have to say that I think there is a bit more to priesthood than that. Why would we be ordaining men to the priesthood if it were only faith? A man can have faith without being ordained.

TBMormon wrote:Ok, now that we understand that point at least, I have to say that I think there is a bit more to priesthood than that.

And that's where we disagree, and where I would simply point to the scriptures.

Why would we be ordaining men to the priesthood if it were only faith? A man can have faith without being ordained.

It was not this way in the beginning, and I don't think it is this way by revelation from God (no such revelation is in the scriptures, so even if one existed, it would not be binding upon the Church). Like the Relief Society, priesthood ordination was originally intended only for the sanctified - they who have the Holy Ghost (I'll have to go through WJS again to find where Joseph said that; he did say it). Now, we ordain men to priesthood without any such considerations, same as admitting women into the Relief Society.

Here are some good thoughts about this subject.

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laronius wrote:D&C 121:36
That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

Priesthood is authority, the right to act.

Power is God's ability to act.

This power is only made available to man on conditions of righteousness.

Thus, power in the priesthood exists when a man possesses both the right and ability to act.

This is it. I agree. Priesthood is the authority to act in administration of the outward ordinances in the name of the Lord. These are also commonly known as keys of the priesthood. Keys are necessary to perform ordinances for those who are under your stewardship for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth. There are times when God cannot be restrained because of the sheer intensity of the faith one possesses. Women have been known to exercise the power of God through this faith. The sick woman had enough faith to be healed if she just touched Jesus' garments. God had to reveal himself to the brother of Jared because of the faith he had. But there is one thing women cannot do. And that is to act in authority to seal on earth and in heaven.

It is not just women and men in this church and outside of the church that have access to power. Even satan has power to do many things. But that is because he is allowed to use that limited power in his capacity as the adversary. Then, one would ask... is even satan manifesting his powers by faith? How is it done? Notice that when faith is spoken of in relation to creation... Satan does not have the power of creation.

log wrote:

TBMormon wrote:Ok, now that we understand that point at least, I have to say that I think there is a bit more to priesthood than that.

And that's where we disagree, and where I would simply point to the scriptures.

I guess that since you didn't include more scriptures, you are referring to the one you already posted. However, if you are so inclined, feel free to post more scriptures.

Why would we be ordaining men to the priesthood if it were only faith? A man can have faith without being ordained.

It was not this way in the beginning, and I don't think it is this way by revelation from God (no such revelation is in the scriptures, so even if one existed, it would not be binding upon the Church). Like the Relief Society, priesthood ordination was originally intended only for the sanctified - they who have the Holy Ghost (I'll have to go through WJS again to find where Joseph said that; he did say it). Now, we ordain men to priesthood without any such considerations, same as admitting women into the Relief Society.

Sorry, I'm completely confused by your last statement. I said that men can have faith without being ordained and you said, it was not this way in the beginning. I'm assuming you don't mean that a man can't have faith if he is not ordained to the priesthood. Can you please clarify?

TBMormon wrote:

log wrote:

TBMormon wrote:Ok, now that we understand that point at least, I have to say that I think there is a bit more to priesthood than that.

And that's where we disagree, and where I would simply point to the scriptures.

I guess that since you didn't include more scriptures, you are referring to the one you already posted. However, if you are so inclined, feel free to post more scriptures.

What I have cited suffices.

Why would we be ordaining men to the priesthood if it were only faith? A man can have faith without being ordained.

It was not this way in the beginning, and I don't think it is this way by revelation from God (no such revelation is in the scriptures, so even if one existed, it would not be binding upon the Church). Like the Relief Society, priesthood ordination was originally intended only for the sanctified - they who have the Holy Ghost (I'll have to go through WJS again to find where Joseph said that; he did say it). Now, we ordain men to priesthood without any such considerations, same as admitting women into the Relief Society.

Sorry, I'm completely confused by your last statement. I said that men can have faith without being ordained and you said, it was not this way in the beginning. I'm assuming you don't mean that a man can't have faith if he is not ordained to the priesthood. Can you please clarify?

You asked, or so I thought, "why would we be ordaining men to the priesthood if it [power to work miracles and so forth] were only faith?" In context, I thought you were asking why we would be universally ordaining men to the priesthood if it were the case that all power comes by faith. That is the question I answered. If that is not the question you were asking, please clarify what you meant.

Oh, ok. Sorry for the confusion. I understand your answer now.

Feel free to post that quote by JS if you find it. I would be interested in it.

It is interesting that the priesthood is not just working when we have faith, but that we also need to have faith before we even receive it.

26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.

Faith must be before the Priesthood is given, and this makes sense in may ways. We need faith like the brother of Jared to see Christ, to rent the veil, and as we learn in D&C 84 we can only see God in the flesh with the priesthood.

We also need faith to understand the mysteries of God, and to receive him. The priesthood and it's ordinances are they key to unlog these mysteries. And most of all, the oath and the covenant of the priesthood is to "receive" Christ and the Father.

We can have the Priesthood, but it will not move us foreward one dot without faith. And those who prove their faith before God, will be found worthy to receive that priesthood the same way Melchezidek became it, through God's voice.

“Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days?”

Oliver Cowdery