LDS Freedom Forum

log wrote:I'm sorry - it appears what I was asking was not understood. I will be extremely explicit.

How do you know any person outside of the Church has been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost? What sensory data (firsthand experience) gives you knowledge about their having received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, as opposed to mere belief or opinion?

The same way you KNOW someone in the church has been. How would you know? What would you look for?

There is a fairly obvious way to know if someone is being influenced by the power of the Holy Ghost or whether they have the gift of the Holy Ghost. I would love to hear your thoughts before sharing mine.

Spiritual blessings is not a substitute.

I am not certain I understand what your saying here. Could you please elaborate? Perhaps give an example of how someone might use spiritual blessings as a substitute for the baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost?

As you and I disagree upon what the baptism of fire consists of, at most one of us can be right; both of us can be wrong.

Perhaps, it is also possible that we could both be right. I have seen that time and again. For example, if we were both looking at an elephant, you from the front and I from the back, we would disagree as to what the elephant looked like and both be right. Happens all the time. This is concept is one of the principles of peace...

I'm not asking for scriptural examples; indeed, with respect to the "pre-baptismal" ones, you'll note that in each instance they were ministered to by true prophets.

Hmm, not sure what your point is here. It seems that you are saying that because "true prophets" taught the people they could somehow receive the gift of the Holy Ghost without baptism or the laying on of hands but that if they were not taught by true prophets then they could not and would not have gotten the Gift? I jsut can't make sense of your point. Please clarify and maybe give an example of what wouldn't work?

Peace,
Amonhi

I usually ask a person if they have been.

A person having this or that spiritual blessing does not constitute evidence that one has been baptized by fire. The Lord gives gifts to each man as he will.

We don't agree on what the baptism of fire constitutes, despite the fact that I demonstrated my position from the scriptures. There's nowhere else to go from there; at most one of us can be right.

My point on the "pre-baptismal" baptisms by fire - of which only one was explicitly such, and the biblical one Joseph disavowed as such - was that in both cases the people in question were ministered to by true prophets. If therefore you wish to use them as proof-of-concept, it appears you must also show ministration by true prophets.

Great posts. Gifts of the psirit, signs of healing, etc are not signs either. What does it say in Matthew? That were will be many who prophecy, heal in the name of Christ and He will say I know thee not! These are manifestations of the Holy Ghost, not signs of the person. They did not know God!

While prophecy is one of the signs of the Holy Ghost, "came straitway out of the water and prophesied many things" (paraphrased) etc... One who is intune with the spirit can usually tell "the vibration level" of another. Don't know what word to use but basically how close one is to God. The closer you are the better you can "tell" and see the light in others.

Prophecy is not sufficient, either. Just to kill that one, too.

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Thanks for clarifying, that is a gift of the spirit. But it is also a sign of one who has it. So its tough.

Is it possible "authority" has a relation to the holy ghost? "taught with great power and authority"?

If one does not have the holy ghost how do you tell if someone else does? If you do have it how do you tell if someone else does? Does it matter?

TZONE wrote: If one does not have the holy ghost how do you tell if someone else does?

Someone who has not received the Holy Ghost would have no real idea what they were looking for, because it's alien to their experience.

If you do have it how do you tell if someone else does? Does it matter?

Experience. 1. Receive it for yourself. 2. Ask others and compare experiences.

Eventually you'll see patterns emerge and you will, while not being perfectly sure (except by revelation), be able to discern between bluffing and substance.

Some have been, but have departed from God and their minds are darkened. Some have been, and have not departed from God. Some have been, have departed from God, and have returned to God. Some people have not been who think they have been. Some who have been did not understand the significance of what happened. Some haven't been, but would fain claim it by virtue of ordinances. Some have been and know it. Some are on the path to gaining it.

As to whether it matters - there is an instant bond between those who have been; we speak and understand one another about things those who haven't experienced don't understand. Ofttimes upon meeting each other it's like meeting old friends whom we've always known.

log wrote:As to whether it matters - there is an instant bond between those who have been; we speak and understand one another about things those who haven't experienced don't understand. Ofttimes upon meeting each other it's like meeting old friends whom we've always known.

Yes

Alma 5

God Bless

I think they would have charity....a love for God and for the rest of creation...

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

and also if your spiritually commune with someone....

21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

and if you choose to follow a truth that given by some one...

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a aseed. Now, if ye give place, that a bseed may be planted in your cheart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your dunbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to eenlighten my funderstanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own alikeness.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible....


45 For the aword of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is blight, and whatsoever is light is cSpirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

elijahsson wrote:I think they would have charity....a love for God and for the rest of creation...

Yes, but you wouldn't know that from the outside looking in, without revelation.

When we are confirmed members of the church by the laying on of hands, we are also counseled, admonished, or otherwise commanded to receive the Holy Ghost. This is what many overlook. Not receiving the First Comforter is akin to not opening a wrapped present at Christmas time. Most simply take their gift and store it in a dark closet or atop a shelf to collect dust until one day, they decide to accept it and to open it.

Receiving the Holy Ghost is an act of faith. It is an action (we accept Him, invite Him, become one with Him), not some magical or mystical endowment without any thought given to it. And when we have truly received Him, witnessing to the Father that we have truly put away the natural man and commit to being diligent and obedient to His voice and His commandments, we are reborn, literally born of fire. We become new creatures. The old creature is of the dust and of the world. As such we are carnal by nature with all the desires, lusts and appetites of the natural man. It is when we have stripped ourselves of the natural, carnal, worldly man, that through our sanctification, we are justified.

How do you know if you or someone else has received the Holy Ghost? Alma tells the people of Zarahemla in Alma 5. He gives them a clear explanation. Have you experienced that mighty change of heart? The question then begs to be asked, “have I been born again?” There are two great witnesses, which may be called to answer. The first is evidence in the fabric of your soul. If your life is filled with charity; if you have no more desire to sin; if your soul yearns for prayer and love of the Lord; if you have no more desire to accumulate wealth, power, position, worldly acclaim or honor; if all your hobbies, pastimes and possessions become nothing more than a child’s play things to be put away and forgotten; if these things are true without exception, then you have been reborn.

Some of the greatest fruits of rebirth are diligent, faithful, compassionate, selfless, longsuffering devotion and service to the labors of God in His vineyard. All worldly pursuits and fancies become utterly meaningless--to possess or pursue them become counterproductive to being truly on the Lord's errand. They are burdensome and unnecessary. They are worthless.

God has given us the true way to tell, if someone has the HG. But first we must understand that to have the HG as a constant companion, one has to have been cleansed every whit. This cleansing comes by way of the BOFHG. Once God has chosen you and considered you worthy he will bestow the gift upon you. It has nothing to do with the laying on of hands or the church per say. It has everything to do with personal righteous. After God has given the gift, it is by their fruits that you will know them. Look at Christ. Look at his fruits. Would a person who has been chosen and cleansed by Christ, live or act much different that the master who he follows. This wont allow for any 3/4 million dollar ski shakes, or 6 figure stipends, or million dollar penthouses, or vacations, summer homes, or many changes of apparel, servants and living allowances. This would only leave the poor humble followers of Christ. By their fruits you shall know them!!!! Not buy the fruits that they buy shall yea know them. Bottom line is that they live and act more like Christ lived and acted than we do.

deep water wrote:Would a person who has been chosen and cleansed by Christ, live or act much different that the master who he follows. This wont allow for any 3/4 million dollar ski shakes, or 6 figure stipends, or million dollar penthouses, or vacations, summer homes, or many changes of apparel, servants and living allowances. This would only leave the poor humble followers of Christ. By their fruits you shall know them!!!!.

This is false and seems to be laden with judgement. If there were no "wealth" among us, we'd all be poor. If ye seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, all other things shall be added unto you. Being able to produce wealth can be very helpful in furthering the lords work.

idahommie wrote:

deep water wrote:Would a person who has been chosen and cleansed by Christ, live or act much different that the master who he follows. This wont allow for any 3/4 million dollar ski shakes, or 6 figure stipends, or million dollar penthouses, or vacations, summer homes, or many changes of apparel, servants and living allowances. This would only leave the poor humble followers of Christ. By their fruits you shall know them!!!!.

This is false and seems to be laden with judgement. If there were no "wealth" among us, we'd all be poor. If ye seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, all other things shall be added unto you. Being able to produce wealth can be very helpful in furthering the lords work.

D&C 49:20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.

<behold> the world lieth in sin at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to thir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Apstles - Joseph Smith, First Vision, 1832

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

idahommie wrote:

deep water wrote:Would a person who has been chosen and cleansed by Christ, live or act much different that the master who he follows. This wont allow for any 3/4 million dollar ski shakes, or 6 figure stipends, or million dollar penthouses, or vacations, summer homes, or many changes of apparel, servants and living allowances. This would only leave the poor humble followers of Christ. By their fruits you shall know them!!!!.

This is false and seems to be laden with judgement. If there were no "wealth" among us, we'd all be poor. If ye seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, all other things shall be added unto you. Being able to produce wealth can be very helpful in furthering the lords work.

I disagree:

Jacob 2:

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

No mention of "to buy penthouses, vacations, summer homes or clothing...

3 Nephi 6:
12 And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches.

Seems like that can't happen when those who seek for the kingdom of God are using those riches to "clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted."

D&C 49:

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.

Seems to me like God said that's a sin, through his prophets, and directly. I can think of people like Costco's (former?) CEO who, on which a special interview/segment was run, only took something like a $100,000.00 salary. He said, "Everyone else works hard, why should I pay myself exorbitantly, and not pay them a living wage?" At the time Costco paid nearly double that of other retailers.

I've heard the "I earned it" argument, God says otherwise.

Mosiah 4:

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of

There aren't supposed to be divisions among us. Especially economical. When someone say owns 5 houses, and has workers paid at near poverty level wages, there's something wrong with that attitude.

log wrote:

D&C 49:20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.

<behold> the world lieth in sin at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to thir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Apstles - Joseph Smith, First Vision, 1832

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Log, you beat me to hitting the submit button. But thank you, it's good to hear!

I
really like all the thoughts so far. Lots of great points! I wanted to comment on this one and then throw out a scripture that might spark some ideas...

elijahsson wrote:I think they would have charity....a love for God and for the rest of creation...

Well, the fruits of the spirit do include Charity. And this is an excellent point, but log is right!

Yes, but you wouldn't know that from the outside looking in, without revelation.

Sometimes it can be hard to see Charity when someone is throwing dumping tables and chasing people out of the Temple with a whip as Christ did.

Or when someone is pointing out false teachings and beliefs. THe people who are having their foundations shaken by true don't feel or see the love. They feel like this jerk just came along and screwed up their entire life or the foundation they built their life on, when actually he is just playing in the sand. But he may be loving while he calls them to repentance, but the King and his priests don't feel the Love as Abinadi points out their false teachings, ideas and understandings.

This is another good point! Which I think Log alluded to as well when he said that some claim it because they had an ordinance.

When we are confirmed members of the church by the laying on of hands, we are also counseled, admonished, or otherwise commanded to receive the Holy Ghost. This is what many overlook. Not receiving the First Comforter is akin to not opening a wrapped present at Christmas time. Most simply take their gift and store it in a dark closet or atop a shelf to collect dust until one day, they decide to accept it and to open it.

Coachmarc said,

Have you experienced that mighty change of heart? The question then begs to be asked, “have I been born again?”

This logically makes sense, but something inside me says that a person can have the change of heart and not receive the spirit. And as I think of about it, I can imagine a person who has no desire to hurt anyone or do any bad but who is weak in spirit. Humble, maybe even scared. A truly good person who does not have the spirit. I really can't back that up with anything else right now as I never considered this before. Just going on my guide.

Deep water brings up a point and log backs him up with a few scriptures about one man not having more than another. Unfortunately, in our current money system under the Federal Reserve, our economy would collapse if we did not have any poor. We are literally forced into having poor among us. The option is to be one of the poor so someone else doesn't have to or to be one of the wealthy and use that wealth to do good, like helping the poor.

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you. - 3 Ne. 13:31-33

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to ado good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. - Jacob 2:18-19

One rich man can feed many many poor men. But a single poor man cannot even feed himself. Many or our great prophets like Abraham and Joseph of Egypt he great wealth. And they did great things with it.

We cannot tell the wicked by counting the money in their piggy bank, or the righteous by the dust on their piggy bank.

Seems to me like God said that's a sin, through his prophets, and directly. I can think of people like Costco's (former?) CEO who, on which a special interview/segment was run, only took something like a $100,000.00 salary. He said, "Everyone else works hard, why should I pay myself exorbitantly, and not pay them a living wage?" At the time Costco paid nearly double that of other retailers.

Cool, I didn't know that! Wow!

There aren't supposed to be divisions among us. Especially economical. When someone say owns 5 houses, and has workers paid at near poverty level wages, there's something wrong with that attitude.

Ouch! The church is in real trouble... They pay lower than any employer I have seen and yet build great malls, apartment buildings, etc...

WAIT... can we make a new topic for this. I want to get back to how we know when others have the Holy Ghost...

I am sooo very out of time, but I wanted to throw out this scripture and see where you go with it in relation to the topic...

2 Nephi 32:2 - Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

I live by a highway in the country. The cars pass at a high rate of speed. To keep my family dogs alive I would watch and discipline them every time they would leave the yard, until trained. My neighbor, after seeing me slap my dog around, after going onto the road, came over and told me she thought I was cruel to my dog. Over the years, I have seen many of her family pets hit on the highway. The only pet I lost was a pet that was taken by her father in law to be his companion while my family was at work and school. Her father in law had lost his dog to the highway and they would not allow him to get another to replace his lost dog so he would come over and get my dog during the day. After I found out what he was doing I told my children that our dog was as good as dead, that it was just a matter of time and he would be gone or we could keep her locked up all the time. It wasn't but months later that my youngest son went in to get a drink of water and the dog met his end on the highway.
What is the reason I tell this story? Are we being told by our leaders how dangerous our behavior is, or are we being left to go out to the highway so to speak. Is it more cruel to hear the truth now, when we can still repent, or is it more cruel to wait until the judgment bar of God, when the die is cast. Me, I favor telling you not to cross the road. I hear how Abraham was wealthy, and that that is justification for our wealth. But everyone in his group had the same wealth as Abraham did. They all ate and slept and labored for the same good. To say that what I said before was a lie is to throughout the gospel taught in the scriptures which is the Gospel taught by Christ and all his Holy Prophets, not the philosophies of man, mingled with Gods Gospel. The path to the tree of life was given an iron rod to hold on to. This iron rod is described as the pure word of God. This is the only way through the mist. GOOD LUCK.

Those having the gift of the holy ghost can stand the fire because they have been baptized by fire.. Guess they won't need a fireensureance at the second comig ;) So, look who has not an fireensurance, and you know who has that gift ( just kidding )

Amonhi wrote:Coachmarc said,

Have you experienced that mighty change of heart? The question then begs to be asked, “have I been born again?”

This logically makes sense, but something inside me says that a person can have the change of heart and not receive the spirit. And as I think of about it, I can imagine a person who has no desire to hurt anyone or do any bad but who is weak in spirit. Humble, maybe even scared. A truly good person who does not have the spirit. I really can't back that up with anything else right now as I never considered this before. Just going on my guide.

Which is why I cited Alma 5, a very in depth chapter concerning the matter.

14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?

16 I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?

19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.

29 Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless

and

38 Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd, to the name by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.

The Lamanites who were in Nephi and Lehi's company when they were encircled by fire had a mighty change of heart and they were baptized with fire, though they knew it not. The Lord had called to them. They were told in their confusion to cry unto the Lord. And they were baptized with fire, though they didn't know it.

3 Nephi 9:20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

and

Ether 12:14 Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

So how can they, who were weak in spirit, be baptized with fire? Weren't they scared? Were they humbled? Yet we know that it was by faith that they were forgiven and reborn. We read the story in Helaman 5. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/hel/5.24?lang=eng#23" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

38 And they said unto the man: Behold, what do all these things mean, and who is it with whom these men do converse?

39 Now the man’s name was Aminadab. And Aminadab said unto them: They do converse with the angels of God.

40 And it came to pass that the Lamanites said unto him: What shall we do, that this cloud of darkness may be removed from overshadowing us?

41 And Aminadab said unto them: You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you.

42 And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed.

43 And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire.

44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.

A bunch of Lamanites were about to kill Nephi and Lehi, yet because of the great faith of Nephi and Lehi and then because they, themselves, exercised great faith, a miracle was wrought. They had been born again.

So for me it is safe to say that I have never received the Holy Ghost.

Lucy (Church), you've gotta lotta xplainin to doooo!

log wrote:

elijahsson wrote:I think they would have charity....a love for God and for the rest of creation...

Yes, but you wouldn't know that from the outside looking in, without revelation.

In my opinion, you can tell, if a person is born again, at least in some people, from what I've noticed they are kind, patient, not easily provoked, puffed up, open to truth...believe all things...long suffering....

then their light.... they're knowledge is not only like I can quote any scripture because I know them so well, I mean people who have lots of knowledge but use it as a means to hurt others and put themselves up high...but when knowledge or wisdom is shared by them it is fueled with charity.....

Amonhi wrote: This logically makes sense, but something inside me says that a person can have the change of heart and not receive the spirit. And as I think of about it, I can imagine a person who has no desire to hurt anyone or do any bad but who is weak in spirit. Humble, maybe even scared. A truly good person who does not have the spirit. I really can't back that up with anything else right now as I never considered this before. Just going on my guide.

This was very interesting...