MMP and scriptures

[freedomforall]

Denver weighs in...
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2013/ ... talks.html

There are people or friends with whom I have private discussions about a number of topics, i.e the idea of multiple mortalities (not mentioned in the inquiry above but mentioned in a number of emails and blog comments). This is the position I have taken on that topic - ALWAYS: What possible good can it do you to know about your pre-earth record. The challenge in front of us all has “sufficient evil unto the day thereof” without, like the Indigo Girls, to “try and get it right” for some other life. The challenge is underway. Fight now. Win in this present estate and focus on what it takes to get out of here with honor. Nothing else matters. Isn’t this life challenge enough for you? You have time to contemplate what you might have done in some other place, time, circumstance or experience? If the topic were important enough that it should influence you today, don’t you think the scriptures would make the question plain enough so the doctrine is out in the open? If it is veiled, even if it were true, then it is left obscure for a reason.

The issue is not the mechanism of MMP. In this life that is unimportant. But the mechanics opens the character of God and opens the scriptures to a new meaning. For me it unlocked the love of God. For me it unlocked many of the hidden messages in the scriptures. The problem I have is when I discuss the scriptures I have to use my view of the scriptures in the commentary. I can't lie and say some other gospel. The only other thing I could do is remain silent. But I have been told to edify. I think the days to remain silent are gone. The mysteries are opening and the Spirit is pouring out. Some will grab on and others will dance around, still others will deny until they die. That is the way it has been for two thousand years why would I expect man to change.

Man needs faith necessary for salvation...not in having another life.
Nephi, the son of Lehi didn't want another life ahead, he trusted that the Lord would save him in spite of his sins and failings. (2 Nephi 4:26-35) That, in and of itself, is a great lesson to be learned. Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding. (Prov 3:5) We must have faith and hope, hope cometh of faith and maketh an anchor to the souls of men. making them steadfast and immovable. (Ether 12:4) This is what we're to learn and understand and apply.
The wicked will remain wicked after death, so what good would another life do for them? (Alma 42:28) Satan has them in his grasp...it's in the book! (Alma 34:35)
Scripture says that the Telestial kingdom will have an innumerable amount of people in it, so how could all men go and be with Father. (D and C 76:109) If all men kept having chance after chance after chance to finally seek God then there would be no one in the Telestial kingdom and the scripture would be a lie. Somehow I don't think MMP's are real.

[Franktalk]

The wicked will remain wicked after death, so what good would another life do for them? (Alma 42:28) Satan has them in his grasp...it's in the book! (Alma 34:35)
Scripture says that the Telestial kingdom will have an innumerable amount of people in it, so how could all men go and be with Father. (D and C 76:109) If all men kept having chance after chance after chance to finally seek God then there would be no one in the Telestial kingdom and the scripture would be a lie. Somehow I don't think MMP's are real.

If the scriptures took a snap shot of heaven for this dispensation at the beginning there would be no spirits in heaven from this earth. I think you may need to think about eternity and how things progress over time. The other thing you may want to consider is another parable from Jesus.

Mat 20

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

I hope you can see how this applies. If not let me know and I will explain it.

[freedomforall]

The wicked will remain wicked after death, so what good would another life do for them? (Alma 42:28) Satan has them in his grasp...it's in the book! (Alma 34:35)
Scripture says that the Telestial kingdom will have an innumerable amount of people in it, so how could all men go and be with Father. (D and C 76:109) If all men kept having chance after chance after chance to finally seek God then there would be no one in the Telestial kingdom and the scripture would be a lie. Somehow I don't think MMP's are real.

If the scriptures took a snap shot of heaven for this dispensation at the beginning there would be no spirits in heaven from this earth. I think you may need to think about eternity and how things progress over time. The other thing you may want to consider is another parable from Jesus.

Mat 20

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

I hope you can see how this applies. If not let me know and I will explain it.

I know full well what it means, and have answered this on other threads. In short...it means that if a person runs across the finish line, which is death, and another crawls across it...they both get the same prize...Eternal Life, by staying on the path. I'm going to let Bruce R McConkie explain further.

"this is true gospel verity--that everyone in the Church who is on the straight and narrow path, who is striving and struggling and desiring to do what is right, though is far from perfect in this life; if he passes out of this life while he's on the straight and narrow, he's going to go on to eternal reward in his Father's kingdom.

We don't need to get a complex or get a feeling that you have to be perfect to be saved. You don't. There's only been one perfect person, and that's the Lord Jesus, but in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God and in order to pass the test of mortality, what you have to do is get on the straight and narrow path--thus charting a course leading to eternal life--and then, being on that path, pass out of this life in full fellowship. I'm not saying that you don't have to keep the commandments. I'm saying you don't have to be perfect to be saved. If you did, no one would be saved. The way it operates is this you get on the path that's named the "straight and narrow." You do it by entering the gate of repentance and baptism. The straight and narrow path leads from the gate of repentance and baptism, a very great distance, to a reward that's called eternal life. If you're on that path and pressing forward, and you die, you'll never get off the path. There is no such thing as falling off the straight and narrow path in the life to come, and the reason is that this life is the time that is given to men to prepare for eternity. Now is the time and the day of your salvation, so if you're working zealously in this life--though you haven't fully overcome the world and you haven't done all you hoped you might do--you're still going to be saved. You don't have to do what Jacob said, "Go beyond the mark." You don't have to live a life that's truer than true. You don't have to have an excessive zeal that becomes fanatical and becomes unbalancing. What you have to do is stay in the mainstream of the Church and live as upright and decent people live in the Church--keeping the commandments, paying your tithing, serving in the organizations of the Church, loving the Lord, staying on the straight and narrow path. If you're on that path when death comes--because this is the time and the day appointed, this the probationary estate--you'll never fall off from it, and, for all practical purposes, your calling and election is made sure. Now, that isn't the definition of that term, but the end result will be the same.

There's great hope for Latter-day Saints. There's great hope for anyone who will repent, believe, obey, strive, struggle and seek to work out his salvation. There isn't hope for anyone who will not. Our revelation says, "Surely every man must repent or suffer; for 1, God, am Endless." Well, either we suffer for our sins, according to the law of justice, or we repent, and through the atoning sacrifice, the Lord Jesus bears our sins and we become inheritors of mercy. Now we can go forward. We can have every reward that the scriptures speak of. We're not an austere people. We don't remove ourselves from the world. We're deliberately in the world so that we'll have opportunity to overcome the world. We can have in the Church every association and felicity and good feeling that anyone can have. Anything that's wholesome and good is available to us. We're denied nothing, and that's good. In addition to that, we can have the hope of glorious immortality--meaning eternal life--in the realms and the worlds that are ahead.

Now, let's have in mind as we conclude tonight, that the work we're engaged in is true. Let's just know that with absolute surety. Let's know that the doctrine I'm teaching is true. The ideal testimony bears record that the doctrine taught is true and that the work is true. I'm teaching true doctrine, for one thing, and testifying that I am teaching, and I'm adding to that the testimony that the work is true. Because these things are true, they operate in the lives of men. Because they're true, we can have peace and joy and happiness in this life, and we can be inheritors of eternal life in the world to come."

SEE: http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.aspx ... .htm#earth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[lemuel]

The good news: No one's going to hell over their MMP beliefs.

[log]

The good news: No one's going to hell over their MMP beliefs.

... but for contending over their MMP beliefs.

[Franktalk]

I know full well what it means, and have answered this on other threads. In short...it means that if a person runs across the finish line, which is death, and another crawls across it...they both get the same prize...Eternal Life, by staying on the path. I'm going to let Bruce R McConkie explain further.

I reject any and all teachings of McConkie. Because of this:

”I am called of God. My authority is above that of the kings of the earth. By revelation I have been selected as a personal representative of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is my Master and he has chosen me to represent him. To stand in his place, to say and do what he himself would say and do if he personally were ministering to the very people to whom he has sent me. My voice is his voice, and my acts are his acts; my words are his words and my doctrine is his doctrine. My commission is to do what he wants done. To say what he wants said. To be a living modern witness in word and deed of the divinity of his great and marvelous latter-day work.” Bruce R. McConkie.

http://ldschurchquotes.com/bruce-r-mcco ... nary-work/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

"Apostles and prophets are also teachers, and what greater commission can anyone have from the Lord than to stand in his place, and stead, saying what he would say if he personally were present, and doing it because the words uttered flow forth by the power of the Holy Ghost?"

No one stands in the Lords place.

Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1989

[freedomforall]

I know full well what it means, and have answered this on other threads. In short...it means that if a person runs across the finish line, which is death, and another crawls across it...they both get the same prize...Eternal Life, by staying on the path. I'm going to let Bruce R McConkie explain further.

I reject any and all teachings of McConkie. Because of this:

”I am called of God. My authority is above that of the kings of the earth. By revelation I have been selected as a personal representative of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is my Master and he has chosen me to represent him. To stand in his place, to say and do what he himself would say and do if he personally were ministering to the very people to whom he has sent me. My voice is his voice, and my acts are his acts; my words are his words and my doctrine is his doctrine. My commission is to do what he wants done. To say what he wants said. To be a living modern witness in word and deed of the divinity of his great and marvelous latter-day work.” Bruce R. McConkie.

http://ldschurchquotes.com/bruce-r-mcco ... nary-work/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

"Apostles and prophets are also teachers, and what greater commission can anyone have from the Lord than to stand in his place, and stead, saying what he would say if he personally were present, and doing it because the words uttered flow forth by the power of the Holy Ghost?"

No one stands in the Lords place.

Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1989

Do you reject all apostles of today and past? Do you reject the Prophet of today and those of old? Do you think that no one can speak for Christ in His stead?
You could say that Christ is a liar when He says, whether by my mouth or the mouths of my servants it is the same. Do you reject Christ's words as well?

[freedomforall]

Here is L. Tom Perry quoting Bruce R McConkie:
Elder Bruce R. McConkie has said this about following the straight and narrow path:

“What I think all of us need to do is to determine where we stand in every field of mortal endeavor. Then, based on the general overall concepts that are clear and plain, we make a determination on how we will live in this field or in that field in order to pass the probationary estate in order to succeed in the test of mortality. If we make the right choices, we’ll go on to eternal reward, and if we do not, then we’ll get some lower and lesser place in the kingdoms that are prepared.

“… Everyone in the Church who is on the straight and narrow path, who is striving and struggling and desiring to do what is right, though [he] is far from perfect in this life; if he passes out of this life while he’s on the straight and narrow, he’s going to go on to eternal reward in his Father’s kingdom” (The Probationary Test of Mortality, devotional address, Salt Lake Institute of Religion, Jan. 10, 1982, 8–9).

Perry goes on to say:
"All of this is made possible by Jesus Christ. He is the centerpiece of the eternal plan of the Father, the Savior who was provided as a ransom for mankind. God sent His Beloved Son to overcome the Fall of Adam and Eve. He came to earth as our Savior and Redeemer. He overcame the obstacle of physical death for us by giving up His own life. When He died on the cross, His spirit became separated from His body. On the third day His spirit and His body were reunited eternally, never to be separated again.

Life on earth is of limited duration. There comes a time for all of us when the spirit and the body are separated in death. But because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, we will all be resurrected, regardless of whether we have accomplished good or evil in this life. Immortality is the gift to every mortal child of our Father in Heaven. Death must be viewed as a portal to a new and better life. Through the glorious resurrection, body and spirit will be reunited. We will have a perfect, immortal body of flesh and bones that will never be subjected to pain or death. But the glory we attain to in the next life will depend on our performance in this life. Only through the gift of the Atonement and our obedience to the gospel can we return and live with God once again."


SEE: http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Simon]

The good news: No one's going to hell over their MMP beliefs.

... but for contending over their MMP beliefs.

I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine, it looks too much like methodism and not like Latter day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be tramelled. It dont prove that a man is not a good man, because he errs in doctrine.

Joseph Smith

We are not to judge

[log]

The good news: No one's going to hell over their MMP beliefs.

... but for contending over their MMP beliefs.

I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine, it looks too much like methodism and not like Latter day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be tramelled. It dont prove that a man is not a good man, because he errs in doctrine.

Joseph Smith

We are not to judge

Who's judging?

3 Nephi 11:28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:81
81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.

A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. (Joseph Smith, TPJS, pg. 357)

[Franktalk]

Do you reject all apostles of today and past? Do you reject the Prophet of today and those of old? Do you think that no one can speak for Christ in His stead?
You could say that Christ is a liar when He says, whether by my mouth or the mouths of my servants it is the same. Do you reject Christ's words as well?

A servant of God is a servant and does not stand in His place. If you can not see the difference then you need to study more. The scriptures show that all prophets retain their free will so no prophet can make this statement. God is not a liar His servants are free to choose.

So when the antichrist stands in the Holy of Holies and says he stands for God you will be OK with that?

A servant of God is but a tool of God. If you accept that Bruce stands for God will you kneel in front of him? Would you stand when he comes into the room? Do you accept what he says without checking with the Holy Spirit? We are not to trust the arm of the flesh. Do you believe the apostles are flesh?

[Franktalk]

Who's judging?

It seems you are. I accept that men will be at various stages of learning and we all have our own view of the scripture as we move forward on the plan of salvation. Those who contend are those who are fixed in what they believe. When you stop making progress on your learning of the truth it is called unbelief. It is also called being damned.

Where are the new scriptures? Where are the other books that God has for us? Why is it that doctrine is being removed from the church? The lecture on Faith, the 1844 section 109 of the D and C, and the teachings of probations in the church. It seems we dwindle in unbelief.

And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.”
― Moroni

So the measure of our belief is found in our ability to do miracles. And the measure of our unbelief is found in our lack of miracles.

[log]

Who's judging?

It seems you are.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

[Simon]

Who's judging?

It seems you are.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

Laman and Lemuel heard the voice of the Lord, saw an angel and were taught really, really much about the gospel. But even though had received all this, they still tried a couple times to kill Nephi. Amazingly he still forgave them al their evil, and the Lord still gave them many, many chances... How much more loving and understanding will he be to people that might be a little "over" defending a doctrine they believe in.. ? Sure, contention is not good, but OUR reaction to that ( at least on a forum where all is about discussing doctrine ) should simply be to not take it that serious and forgive them that "small" thing. How easy that must be for us compared to the really wicked things Lamen and Lemual did to Nephi

[log]

To forgive, one would first have to take offense. So I have nothing to forgive.

[Simon]

But using scriptures to proove "your point" that

those who content for their believes in MMP's will go to hell

sounds a little bit of a judgement to me. It reminds me of the evengalics on my mission telling me I will go to hell because I am proselyting for my faith. If we would apply all scriptures just like that, Christ could not have forgiven all those sinners he healed. I am really not for contention, but you must admit that statesments like that are the cause for such contentions.

[log]

But using scriptures to proove "your point" that

those who content for their believes in MMP's will go to hell

sounds a little bit of a judgement to me.

Ah. I see - you have judged me. Well, I'm not offended, so nothing to forgive - not even the fake quote.

[Simon]

Nephi, the son of Lehi didn't want another life ahead, he trusted that the Lord would save him in spite of his sins and failings.

I can't imagine that anyone ever really would want another mortal life on an earth similar to this. Who would like to repeat the hardest school while others are already working in their profession? Assuming I would believe in MMP's, speaking for myselfe the doctrine would rather motivate me to not have to go back and I would do everything to prevent that from happening. I can see how others may feel to ethusiastic about that doctrine, but to me, the thought feels like hell ( at least out of my earthly present view ). I can see why the Lord would not want this doctrine to be a public and open revelation. It is just not as important to know as the things we have to do now. Only those that have their prioritys strait will receive more insights on that matter. Therefore, the proove for or against it will only be found in this experience.

[Jeremy]

I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I do, I think there are so many over-wise men here that they would cry “treason” and put me to death.

[freedomforall]

Do you reject all apostles of today and past? Do you reject the Prophet of today and those of old? Do you think that no one can speak for Christ in His stead?
You could say that Christ is a liar when He says, whether by my mouth or the mouths of my servants it is the same. Do you reject Christ's words as well?

A servant of God is a servant and does not stand in His place. If you can not see the difference then you need to study more. The scriptures show that all prophets retain their free will so no prophet can make this statement. God is not a liar His servants are free to choose. So if you reject Christ's servants because they're men, yet say Christ is not a liar, just how does this compute with regards to Christ's declaration that what his servants say he would say? This is about as close as one can get without being Christ himself. But Christ is okay with that, yet you appear to reject it. What does that tell everyone?

So when the antichrist stands in the Holy of Holies and says he stands for God you will be OK with that? Where did this come from? This isn't worth addressing, because Christ says His servants...not the anti-Christ. Is the anti-Christ His servant? Huh? See how eloquently you appear to twist things around in order to make a point?

A servant of God is but a tool of God. A tool you seem to reject because they are flesh...Weird! If you accept that Bruce stands for God will you kneel in front of him? Would you stand when he comes into the room? Do you accept what he says without checking with the Holy Spirit? First you say that servants are only flesh and we should reject them, yet Christ says we are to listen to them...and then you turn around and say well, maybe we should pay attention to their words if we check in with the Spirit. This is a mighty strange concept you seem to espouse. We are not to trust the arm of the flesh. So, since they're only flesh, let's reject their words...making Christ a liar...BRILLIANT! Do you believe the apostles are flesh? Do you reject them as the Lord's mouthpieces?

I wonder if your intellect is only superseded by arrogance. You answered the questions as I would have expected.

Either we accept Christ's servants as viable sources of gospel teaching, or we don't. Flesh, yes, but so was Christ, yet He got rejected too...that's how he got Crucified...remember? All the DISCIPLES got killed as well...weren't they flesh? Oh, but that was over two thousand years ago and don't count, right?
I wonder how you would have reacted if you would have been standing on the road when Christ came by dragging his cross from over His shoulder. He was only flesh at the time. You might have NOT known He was our Savior, right? And when you saw Peter weeping, would you have consoled him, or rejected him because he was merely flesh?

2 Ne. 28:31 (30–31)
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The servants of God strive to keep the commandments no less than you. They are sinners called by God to teach, and are not considered as arm of flesh...if that were true...the missionaries may as well come home. Aren't they flesh? Aren't they servants of the Lord?
It isn't the missionaries that converts, it is the Holy Ghost...but someone has to carry the message so the HG can confirm it.
It isn't the Apostles and Prophets that we praise...it is their message...a message that the Holy Spirit will confirm by the same spirit as was given to the hearers so that all those who truly hear and understand are edified.

[freedomforall]

You know what? I've come to a realization. I find that when engaged in dialog such as this, I lose some ability to be meek, a shortcoming caused by circumstances not under my control. But I can control this, so I think it's time to bow out of this thread and let Frank have the floor. I've slipped into redundancy of thoughts and written word, of which, has been sufficient. I do happen to know where contention comes from. And right now I've been involved with too much of it. To this thread, farewell.

[Franktalk]

I wonder if your intellect is only superseded by arrogance. You answered the questions as I would have expected.

Just as I search within the Bible for the message from God and pretty much ignore the surface I do the same with men. This covering that we have is nothing but what we do with it. Words are nothing except they can covey a message. I wonder why it is you are so fixated with the body of flesh. You see I don't see Christ as His flesh but the Spirit inside. I don't see a prophet as his body but the spirit in the body. And what I hear from a prophet are just words unless they act on my spirit as truth. I think you embrace the concept offered by McConkie that his body is the Body of Christ. That he is Jesus standing on the earth. I think you are wrong.

I know the truth of MMP is not for everyone. There are many who are in the temporal law offered by God and have not broken free. Those who are stuck in the law must judge in the law they embrace. They have not weighed the balance and found that judgment is only the Lord's and is not for us. They don't see the natural state of the spiritual man where he can forgive and forget all of the spirit children of God. They can't see where judgment is an anchor which ties one to the temporal law.

I have said that you are wrong but that deals with your perspective not intent. Your intent is fine. You wish to do the right thing in a manner with what you believe. This is not a sin or an error in the eyes of God. This is why Saul was not held as sinful by God for his persecution of the Christian people and the apostles. Was Saul doing wrong? Yes he was but only in the big picture which he knew not. The same is true of higher truths. We are only held accountable when we know the higher truth and not before. This is why sin is not imputed to us until we know the law. We are held to the law for knowledge which imparts sin.

Knowing you are under the law I normally would not have a chat with you about things beyond the law. But there are many who wish to move past the law because they wish to not judge. Something inside of them says no more judgment. I can not see into your heart to see if you are ready. But these words are on an open forum for many to see. It is God who will draw people to His message in any number of ways. I am but a tool to be used by God. So are you. So is a prophet.

[Franktalk]

Could perhaps someone please clarify what MMP is or stands for?

Thanks

Multiple mortal probations - These are lives in the flesh in which the veil prevents us from remembering the past lives. These life situations are chosen by God and are designed to allow us to experience many things in the flesh. We don't come back as bugs if we do bad. But if in one life we kill by the sword we may have to come back to die by the sword.

[Simon]

You know what? I've come to a realization. I find that when engaged in dialog such as this, I lose some ability to be meek, a shortcoming caused by circumstances not under my control. But I can control this, so I think it's time to bow out of this thread and let Frank have the floor. I've slipped into redundancy of thoughts and written word, of which, has been sufficient. I do happen to know where contention comes from. And right now I've been involved with too much of it. To this thread, farewell.

freedomfighter, just wanted to let you know that even though we may not always have had the same opinion, I am glad you were in. I think people can learn much by hearing differnt viewpoints. It's sad if there is a contentious spirit, because if that would not be all could benefit from the discussion. Anyways.. thanks for your input.

[Berrett]

I have not read all of the posts in this area but thought I would throw out a few things to consider. I have not checked to see what scriptures have been referred to so I apologize if I am repeating what has been said already. I can throw out a few ideas. If you have considered our LDS history you might recall all of the Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young citations to the clay on the potter's wheel. That old testament parable of how we come to earth over and over. Recall the doctrine of annihilation and the dissolving of the spirit called the "second death" if we eventually fail. God apparently wants us either exalted or recycled. We get thousands of chances through various eternal rounds to perfect ourselves. The sermons in the Journal of Discourses are numerous. Joseph validated the doctrine of the clay on the potter's wheel when it was first preached by Heber C. Kimball. See Wilford Woodruff's journal. That is why we are told to "get off the wheel." God, the potter, will make us into vessels of honor by reworking His product. The remortalization concept was one of those plain and precious doctrines thrown out by order of the early Catholic councils. Much has been written on the topic. Consider Tricia McCannon's works for starters. Or just google it. Scripturally, the new testament folks continued to ask Christ and John the Baptist who they were. Who are you from your prior mortalizations? The answer is clear in our scriptures as to John the Baptist for example. He is Elijah. Let's see, the prophesy of their coming was the same. They wore similar clothing and ate similar things, and in the Joseph Smith inspired translation of the bible it is very clear. John the Baptist was at the mount of transfiguration ministering to Christ as Elijah. It is a simple solution to read the scriptures on the area. They are numerous. A good article on the idea is Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives starting at page 137. Haven't you read the book of Abraham chapter 3? The great and noble "souls" will come down and help test the other group. A soul is a body and spirit in section 88. Yes those great and noble souls are some of the Exalted beings who are helping by performing rescue missions to save us low-lifes who need saving. This is not rocket science. Just because we don't have a heading for this topic in Mormon Doctrine doesn't mean it is not taught repeatedly in scripture, and church history. These are just a few of the numerous citations that help suggest what is true. As we increase our vibrational levels and obtain power in the spirit, God, I believe, will help us learn who we really are and what we are to do. The "second restoration" is coming and we need to start learning what will be important to know. Consider Joseph's wives and their belief in remortalization. For lack of a more specific term they called it reincarnation. They learned it from Joseph. Maybe we should too.