MMP and scriptures

[jo1952]

I have a question, so those people who do not hear the gospel and they
pass from this mortal life, it is said that they will be taught the gospel on
the other side...then they can decide for themselves whether or not to join...so
is that it if they join they can work on their baptism of fire, calling and election and
second comforter on the other side...or is this where MMP comes into play, is it that easy
for them?? Or do they have to come back in another probation, life, to achieve these things.

Also what about those whom the gospel was preached to them and they reject it in this life,
what of them, does this MMP come into play for these people? Margo.

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

According to the above, we must all be proven in all things while we are on the earth. MMP comes into play for everyone wherever they happen to be in their spiritual awakening on the earth. This is also true for those who do accept the gospel. They still must be proven in all things. We don't even know what all of the "all things" are yet....they haven't been taught to us. So how can we do what we don't yet know about? This is what Joseph was trying to teach us when he said that we could not be saved in ignorance. Many members of the Church mistakenly believe that we already have a list of all of the things we need to know....that because we have Temple ordinances, that those are the things the rest of the world is ignorant of; that we have the knowledge which makes us no longer ignorant. Somehow there is a disconnect, because they don't consider the things which Joseph never taught as being among the "all things" we must be proven in. If we don't need to be proven in those untaught things, then why were they being taught to begin with? Why continue to seek for truth everywhere? For what purpose? Toward what end?

[pilgrim]

Thank you Jo for your reply, I see what you are saying in relation to the scripture
quoted, I guess I need it explained in laymens terms ....just trying to understand
and put together things for myself and getting others ideas and opinions helps.
If a person has received their calling and election and they have come into the
presence of the Savior in this mortal probation, then are you saying MMP still
plays a part for that person? Also someone who dies without the knowledge of
the gospel...yet they are taught it on the other side and accept it or do not,
does that person still have to come down and be proven in another mortal
probation until they accept the fullness of the gospel, in other words try again
until they come into the presence of the Savior in another life...does this make
sense...I know what I am trying to say just do not know if it is coming across right?

[Simon]

I have a question, so those people who do not hear the gospel and they
pass from this mortal life, it is said that they will be taught the gospel on
the other side...then they can decide for themselves whether or not to join...so
is that it if they join they can work on their baptism of fire, calling and election and
second comforter on the other side...or is this where MMP comes into play, is it that easy
for them?? Or do they have to come back in another probation, life, to achieve these things.

Also what about those whom the gospel was preached to them and they reject it in this life,
what of them, does this MMP come into play for these people? Margo.

Joseph Smith taught:
„All will suffer in the eternal world until they obey Christ himself and are exalted“

This is a strong statemet to ponder about. I believe it is wise to have the way, how excactly these things will work, revealed on a personal level. We will be able to learn many things in the spiritworld, wether we can learn there all things that we need to become like God is another question.

[freedomforall]

Simon,

It is true that the things of God are not the things of man. In scripture words and ideas are described from one passage to another. In many cases the passages can be read in a temporal manner and one message seems to be described. But God is not temporal but a Spirit and He talks to our spirit by spiritual means. Even in the scriptures there is a spiritual manner of interpretation. To achieve this message we must use the developed spirit within us to read the words. This comes from the heart and not the logic of our brain. The love of God directs me when I read the scriptures and over time I have come to see the love of God even in the Old Testament. Where many see a harsh God and punishments I see a loving God intervening in the affairs of men to move them down the path towards salvation.

I live in a very small valley surrounded by different hills. I always loved to climb all those different hills. Something I noted was how totally different the same valley looked from each hill. I experienced the same thing with the scriptures. Our view, or understanding of them changes depending on where we stand, and as closer as we draw to the Lord, as clearer will it become. Once we stand on the "mountain of the Lord" we will see truth with his eyes, and at that moment we will think to ourselve "wow, it's the same scriptures, but it's meaning has totally changed"

I am seeing where you are going with this, but this is not what I ment. What I ment with my analogy is that as closer as we come to the Lord, as more truths will be revealed to us. Truths that we will suddenly discover in scriptures where we have not seen them before. It's less about correcting false views, but it's all about getting a deeper understanding of them. Once we see the scriptures from the Lords mountain ( to use my example ) we will see all truth in all depth, and our understanding of them will be perfect. We will not just see the words, the laws, the logical meaning, we will see hidden treasures, we will find endless wisdom.

So far we do not find scriptures that clearly teach that MMPs are true or false. We know how the resurrection will work, we have these truths. But as closer as WE come to the Lord, as clearer will be our understanding of how things will work in detail. It will increase, not cast away true interpretaions we already have. It will give further light. This is what I was trying to say.

In certain instances that may truely mean though that we may have to change personal interpretations. Let the Lord teach

I do not argue with this analogy, Simon. There is wisdom in your words. Just remember though, false interpretations can cause weak faith...weak faith causes vacillation of beliefs. We must gain strong faith through the words of the Lord in order to have the faith necessary unto salvation. If men would do this there would be no need of any pondering of a second, third, or fourth lifespan to learn it.

Besides has any of the people on this forum claimed that they've already been here on earth at some past time frame? Did they have the knowledge that the life they were living was the only one of which to repent and serve God. Did they know about the restoration, the plan of justice and mercy, the space between death and resurrection, etc? Did they feel there was MMP's so they would have a chance for exercising the proper faith unto salvation?

I still contend that this life is the time or our probation...our only probation as taught in scripture.

Any beliefs that prior leaders of the church including Prophets, have no meaning unless their words were canonized for all to learn from. Opinions are in no way scripture. So be careful as to what people try to espouse as what to believe and follow. Don't let opinion be your guide...even mine. Ponder and pray to understand scripture the way God would have you understand them...then you cannot go wrong. Remember our goal is to see eye to eye with God. How can this be done by believing in false doctrine at any level?

[freedomforall]

So what is being insinuated here is this:
From God's point of view, if person A gets one understanding from scripture he should follow that. Person B gets a different understanding from scripture, and he follows that. Person C does the same...person D, same ...pretty soon nobody knows what scriptures say, because everybody's understandings vary. This type of thing is exactly why God told JS that all the churches in his day were wrong...too many incorrect interpretations. Do you see where I'm going with this? This is not God's way. His words are to be understood only one way...the way He wants them understood...and this can only be done by the spirit. His words are part of His character. Now, if two people each claiming to receive insight from the HG what any one scripture means, yet they vary in substance...one of them is off base.
If God's word was to be changed from what He wants understood...then no man could exercise the necessary faith unto salvation, because they would have a weak understanding of His character. For it is in His word that we gain sure faith and confidence to exercise said faith to go home to God. Nor would justice and mercy be in full effect.

Read Lecture IV: http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_o ... E%20FOURTH" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And of course you know what all truth is. I know enough that I can tell you that there is no such thing as MMP's I don't think so. What you think is of no importance at this point. I know I don't know all truth. Then why keep trying to convince people of MMP? I know we see through the glass darkly. Are you speaking of yourself or judging all true followers of Christ? So we will all see truth differently. This is where we differ, because God's truth is not the same as man's truth and it is God's truth we should seek...not opinions. The problem with the old churches was that they were teaching the same thing the lDS leaders are now teaching. Not so. This is your opinion...not fact. They said then and still say to follow the church and the leaders of the church. Apparently you skipped over the scriptures I posted that say just the opposite. So just who should your readers believe? We can only know the things of God by going to God directly. Can't argue that, it just depends on who it is delivering the answer we have to be careful of.

Jesus did not come to the world to bring peace. He came to set one against the other, all of us fighting to know enough to overcome this world and return to the Father. The LDS church is a church of temporal laws. A very necessary step but it not enough.

And just who set you up as JUDGE AND JURY? Apparently you have set yourself up as a light to the world...this is very dangerous ground to be on, and I have shown many reasons for my claim.
I detect a blatant statement by telling people to disbelieve in the church, its ordinances, its teachings, its path...all of which are headed up by Christ Himself, I don't know whether to pity your views or despise them.

You said:
Jesus did not come to the world to bring peace.

Read these scriptures.

Moroni 8:8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

John 14:27
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Psalms 29:11
11 The Lord will give strength unto his people; the Lord will bless his people with peace.

Do you think that Prophets have no place in the world?

3 Nephi 1:13
13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.

[Franktalk]

You said:
Jesus did not come to the world to bring peace.

Read these scriptures.

Moroni 8:8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

John 14:27
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Psalms 29:11
11 The Lord will give strength unto his people; the Lord will bless his people with peace.

Do you think that Prophets have no place in the world?

3 Nephi 1:13
13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.

I have read them and have also read this.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Just what do you think Jesus meant when He said this? There must be a way to see all of the scriptures so they don't conflict. So how do you see all of these so they don't conflict?

[Franktalk]

Do you think that Prophets have no place in the world?

I believe there are many prophets in the world. I believe they are men and women. Young and old. I believe they are the ones who seek Jesus in the spirit.

Joe_2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And we shall know them by their fruit not by a vote from the arm of flesh.

[freedomforall]

I have a question, so those people who do not hear the gospel and they
pass from this mortal life, it is said that they will be taught the gospel on
the other side...then they can decide for themselves whether or not to join...so
is that it if they join they can work on their baptism of fire, calling and election and
second comforter on the other side...or is this where MMP comes into play, is it that easy
for them?? Or do they have to come back in another probation, life, to achieve these things.

Also what about those whom the gospel was preached to them and they reject it in this life,
what of them, does this MMP come into play for these people? Margo.

Joseph Smith taught:
„All will suffer in the eternal world until they obey Christ himself and are exalted“

This is a strong statemet to ponder about. I believe it is wise to have the way, how excactly these things will work, revealed on a personal level. We will be able to learn many things in the spiritworld, wether we can learn there all things that we need to become like God is another question.

Simon, what do you think this verse means?
What is the world to come inferred here, Simon?

Doctrine and Covenants 130:19
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

And, Simon, how does this apply?

Alma 12:10 (9–11)
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

And, Simon, does this scripture indicate any chance for a second go around in life? Does it indicate there is no hell, that people will move on to another probation?

2 Ne. 28:19 (19–22)
19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;
20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

Some here claim that Christ did not come to give peace. What does this verse say, Simon, that would counter that notion?

Alma 26:14
14 Yea, we have reason to praise him forever, for he is the Most High God, and has loosed our brethren from the chains of hell.

Christ's atonement, and mans repentance, Christ's mercy overpowering justice, mans hungering and thirsting after righteousness...does WHAT for man, Simon?

[freedomforall]

You said:
Jesus did not come to the world to bring peace.

Read these scriptures.

Moroni 8:8
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

John 14:27
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Psalms 29:11
11 The Lord will give strength unto his people; the Lord will bless his people with peace.

Do you think that Prophets have no place in the world?

3 Nephi 1:13
13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.

I have read them and have also read this.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Just what do you think Jesus meant when He said this? There must be a way to see all of the scriptures so they don't conflict. So how do you see all of these so they don't conflict?

Having read these verses in their proper context, and having used all cross references, I have concluded that:

The word peace in verse 34 refers to a division.

John 7:43
43 So there was a division among the people because of him. Meaning that not all people will follow Christ as required, thus causing conflict.

The division is caused by man loving his kin more than loving Christ. And because people in every household may not believe in Christ as they ought, this causes varying beliefs, thus causing division.

Christ says we must love Him more than anyone else. If not, we are not worthy of him. Therefore, each of us must follow the path to exaltation by ourselves, and put our trust in Christ, that He can save us.

For those who do follow Christ and seek His healing power, they do gain peace, even in this life.

[Franktalk]

And, Simon, does this scripture indicate any chance for a second go around in life? Does it indicate there is no hell, that people will move on to another probation?

2 Ne. 28:19 (19–22)
19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;
20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

Ignoring your tone which is pretty bad I will attempt to show you how I read this scripture in part.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

The devil has a kingdom on the earth. He is the prince of the power of the air Eph 2:2. The people are stirred to repentance on the earth by the word of God and His Holy Spirit. We are all bound by death until we overcome this world and take on everlasting life. Until we take up the gospel and become as Christ we are bound to the earth where anger runs rampant and we perish in a cycle of death.

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

All souls of this world must decide if they follow the church of the devil or the church of Jesus. Those who are of the world are stirred to anger and they hate Jesus. John 15:18 The world will hate all those who follow Jesus.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

This makes me wonder just who is it that believes all is well. Just who sings that all is well?
http://www.lds.org/music/text/hymns/com ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now some may think that hell is below. It can be viewed as a pit and a deep dark place. But the earth itself can be thought of as a pit and a dark place. Scripture is full of places that describe the earth as filled with darkness. If a spirit has not overcome the world and that spirit has their body die then that spirit is ushered to those who manage the dispensations. Then that spirit is sent back to the earth below which is hell and darkness.

It was President Kimball that stated this clearly from what he heard from Joseph Smith.

"Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations."

http://jod.mrm.org/6/63" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

As long as the spirits of men deny the forces of the spirit world they are bound to this earth. Then at the end of the dispensation of time those who deserve punishment will be punished. Then in a new earth and a new dispensation those spirits of men will again be tested and subjected to the lust and darkness of the flesh. They then stay for eternity unless they become a new man of the spirit and walk in the spirit and become as Christ.

Thank you FF for these scriptures. They speak to me of the love of God and His devotion to order the universe to bring all of His children back to Him. It tells us how God uses even the devil in His plan of salvation.

[Franktalk]

For those who do follow Christ and seek His healing power, they do gain peace, even in this life.

Since the world hates us just how do we have peace?

[freedomforall]

And, Simon, does this scripture indicate any chance for a second go around in life? Does it indicate there is no hell, that people will move on to another probation?

2 Ne. 28:19 (19–22)
19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;
20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

Ignoring your tone which is pretty bad I will attempt to show you how I read this scripture in part.

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

The devil has a kingdom on the earth. He is the prince of the power of the air Eph 2:2. The people are stirred to repentance on the earth by the word of God and His Holy Spirit. We are all bound by death until we overcome this world and take on everlasting life. Until we take up the gospel and become as Christ we are bound to the earth where anger runs rampant and we perish in a cycle of death.

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

All souls of this world must decide if they follow the church of the devil or the church of Jesus. Those who are of the world are stirred to anger and they hate Jesus. John 15:18 The world will hate all those who follow Jesus.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

This makes me wonder just who is it that believes all is well. Just who sings that all is well?
http://www.lds.org/music/text/hymns/com ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now some may think that hell is below. It can be viewed as a pit and a deep dark place. But the earth itself can be thought of as a pit and a dark place. Scripture is full of places that describe the earth as filled with darkness. If a spirit has not overcome the world and that spirit has their body die then that spirit is ushered to those who manage the dispensations. Then that spirit is sent back to the earth below which is hell and darkness.

It was President Kimball that stated this clearly from what he heard from Joseph Smith.

"Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations."

http://jod.mrm.org/6/63" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

As long as the spirits of men deny the forces of the spirit world they are bound to this earth. Then at the end of the dispensation of time those who deserve punishment will be punished. Then in a new earth and a new dispensation those spirits of men will again be tested and subjected to the lust and darkness of the flesh. They then stay for eternity unless they become a new man of the spirit and walk in the spirit and become as Christ.

Thank you FF for these scriptures. They speak to me of the love of God and His devotion to order the universe to bring all of His children back to Him. It tells us how God uses even the devil in His plan of salvation.

Even better, your name isn't Simon. I was addressing Simon so what you think of my tone has no bearing whatsoever. I want Simon to answer my post, if he desires to do so.

[freedomforall]

For those who do follow Christ and seek His healing power, they do gain peace, even in this life.

Since the world hates us just how do we have peace?

Matthew 11:28
28 ¶Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Isa. 32:17
17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.

1 Cor. 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Thes. 3:16
16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

Mosiah 15:18
18 And behold, I say unto you, this is not all. For O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people;

D&C 59:23
23 But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come.

D&C 88:125
125 And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace.

Ps. 29:11
11 The Lord will give strength unto his people; the Lord will bless his people with peace.

[Franktalk]

Even better, your name isn't Simon. I was addressing Simon so what you think of my tone has no bearing whatsoever. I want Simon to answer my post, if he desires to do so.

Since this thread is about MMP and since you wanted to know how these scriptures related to MMP I thought I would offer my interpretation. It appears that the scriptures can support the idea of MMP if viewed with discernment. We may differ on what message is seen. I accept that as normal in this world.

I wonder why it is that you feel others must come to your way of thinking. In my view we all will be at different places on the path of salvation and we will all see the scriptures in a manner that fits where we are. Our pace is determined by our own spiritual growth. That pace is determined by an individual's spirit and God. I can only cast out ideas and try to edify where I can.

[Franktalk]

John 14:27
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Since you have not shared your views on how Jesus could speak peace and a sword I thought I would offer my views on this subject.

The answer actually is contained in the verse you quoted from John. The peace that one gets from Jesus is given to us. It is inward peace between God and us. It is the peace one gets when we know we are loved of the Father and there is a purpose for us being here. This is the peace one has to fear not death. This is the peace that Stephen had as he was dying and the heavens opened. This is described with:

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you:

This is personal and something God gives you directly. But now we must contrast that with what follows.

not as the world giveth

So peace in the world is not what God is describing. What actually happens in the world is conflict starts to manifest between the world and the person that comes to God. Now God has brought peace to nations that follow His voice. This would be a temporal representation of the spiritual peace that God has with those who follow His voice.

give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

To finish the verse God describes the action of divine peace on a person. It affects the heart so that we are not troubled or afraid. This is not a peace of the mind in dealing with the world, but a peace that comes from the heart so we can deal with the world. A world that loses importance to us as we draw nearer to God.

[freedomforall]

John 14:27
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Since you have not shared your views on how Jesus could speak peace and a sword I thought I would offer my views on this subject.

The answer actually is contained in the verse you quoted from John. The peace that one gets from Jesus is given to us. It is inward peace between God and us. It is the peace one gets when we know we are loved of the Father and there is a purpose for us being here. This is the peace one has to fear not death. This is the peace that Stephen had as he was dying and the heavens opened. This is described with:

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you:

This is personal and something God gives you directly. But now we must contrast that with what follows.

not as the world giveth

So peace in the world is not what God is describing. What actually happens in the world is conflict starts to manifest between the world and the person that comes to God. Now God has brought peace to nations that follow His voice. This would be a temporal representation of the spiritual peace that God has with those who follow His voice.

give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

To finish the verse God describes the action of divine peace on a person. It affects the heart so that we are not troubled or afraid. This is not a peace of the mind in dealing with the world, but a peace that comes from the heart so we can deal with the world. A world that loses importance to us as we draw nearer to God.

I don't dispute this, for I know it is peace in, from and of Christ and not the world.

[Simon]

Simon wrote

I am seeing where you are going with this, but this is not what I ment. What I ment with my analogy is that as closer as we come to the Lord, as more truths will be revealed to us. Truths that we will suddenly discover in scriptures where we have not seen them before. It's less about correcting false views, but it's all about getting a deeper understanding of them. Once we see the scriptures from the Lords mountain ( to use my example ) we will see all truth in all depth, and our understanding of them will be perfect. We will not just see the words, the laws, the logical meaning, we will see hidden treasures, we will find endless wisdom.

So far we do not find scriptures that clearly teach that MMPs are true or false. We know how the resurrection will work, we have these truths. But as closer as WE come to the Lord, as clearer will be our understanding of how things will work in detail. It will increase, not cast away true interpretaions we already have. It will give further light. This is what I was trying to say.

In certain instances that may truely mean though that we may have to change personal interpretations. Let the Lord teach

I do not argue with this analogy, Simon. There is wisdom in your words. Just remember though, false interpretations can cause weak faith...weak faith causes vacillation of beliefs. We must gain strong faith through the words of the Lord in order to have the faith necessary unto salvation. If men would do this there would be no need of any pondering of a second, third, or fourth lifespan to learn it.

I still contend that this life is the time or our probation...our only probation as taught in scripture.

Any beliefs that prior leaders of the church including Prophets, have no meaning unless their words were canonized for all to learn from. Opinions are in no way scripture. So be careful as to what people try to espouse as what to believe and follow. Don't let opinion be your guide...even mine. Ponder and pray to understand scripture the way God would have you understand them...then you cannot go wrong. Remember our goal is to see eye to eye with God. How can this be done by believing in false doctrine at any level

Sorry if my response may come late sometimes, since I live in Germany I am usually sleeping whily discussions are going on.

It is true, false interpretations can weaken our faith and it is essential that we learn to understand the scriptures with the Lords understanding. On the other hand we should not forget that this life is a time where we learn step by step. Often times we learn the greatest lessons from the Lord because we have questions, sometimes false interpretations may cause us to question things, and this should cause us to turn to the Lord and get corrected by him. Important is that we seek his understanding. Having fear because you could possible misunderstand the scriptures should not keep us from studying, seeking and praying. Thi process will strenghten our faith.

I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine, it looks too much like methodism and not like Latter day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be tramelled. It dont prove that a man is not a good man, because he errs in doctrine.

Joseph Smith

[jo1952]

Thank you Jo for your reply, I see what you are saying in relation to the scripture
quoted, I guess I need it explained in laymens terms ....just trying to understand
and put together things for myself and getting others ideas and opinions helps.
If a person has received their calling and election and they have come into the
presence of the Savior in this mortal probation, then are you saying MMP still
plays a part for that person? Also someone who dies without the knowledge of
the gospel...yet they are taught it on the other side and accept it or do not,
does that person still have to come down and be proven in another mortal
probation until they accept the fullness of the gospel, in other words try again
until they come into the presence of the Savior in another life...does this make
sense...I know what I am trying to say just do not know if it is coming across right?

Pilgrim,

I still don't have a clear understanding of all of the particulars. Your question about those who have their calling and election is especially a curiosity for me. I am beginning to believe that this is a method which is also used as we ascend to and through the higher order of kingdoms. However, the mechanics of how it works may change, depending upon the level of heaven we have achieved. The worlds attached to a particular heaven may have their own method of progressing which may look different; but still have the same result of allowing our spirit to continue to progress. IOW, this is a pattern/type for how we progress through the eternities.

When I heard the term "re-mortalization", it began a new wave of thought processing for me. The very word helps my mind to get a better grasp on what is still being revealed to me about this concept in general. For instance, I have felt that there is something not very common among mankind in general, as compared to the likes of Jesus or John the Baptist and others. At first I thought that the word re-mortalization might help answer that difference (as I was immediately drawn to that term when I first saw it only about a week ago). But even now, as I type this, I think it may help clarify some other points...and that it applies to all of us---not just some. (I need to explain that when I first saw that term "re-mortalization", it was not within a context of use which would help explain what it meant.)

I have heard another individual who only a few months ago received a revelation concerning MMP---but that person feels more comfortable calling it "eternal progression"; though what it looks like to her is pretty much the same as it looks to me. She also continues to have her understanding expanded upon and realigned.

The trying again (the going out) is something we usually will not remember. I say usually, because I have been made aware of individuals who remember some aspects about their previous experiences. A couple of them I have known since my high school days. More often than not, the veil will prevent us from remembering---so we are saved from memories (both good and bad) of things we have done. After all, once we are forgiven, we are forgiven. Why should a memory of things we have done and been forgiven of, then have place to haunt us? God means what He says! Somehow, whatever we spiritually attained will stay with our spirit; though it may take time in the next life for our spirit to awake to its previous point--and will then continue to progress until we are able to get out of here. What we previously got sealed to us stays with us...oh my gosh...I just figured something out!!!--or at least I got a beginning glimpse of another understanding about which I have had questions!! Holy moly!!

You can pm me if you are so inclined. I am certainly no expert on this...it continues to not only be expanded upon; it also is helping to open up completely new understandings, while also helping to put other pieces of the puzzle together. Please, please don't take my word for anything!!

[Simon]

Joseph Smith taught:
„All will suffer in the eternal world until they obey Christ himself and are exalted“

This is a strong statemet to ponder about. I believe it is wise to have the way, how excactly these things will work, revealed on a personal level. We will be able to learn many things in the spiritworld, wether we can learn there all things that we need to become like God is another question.

Simon, what do you think this verse means?
What is the world to come inferred here, Simon?

I believe it means that all will suffer in the eternal world until they obey Christ himselfe and are exalted. Not more, not less. It does not teach MMP's, but it teaches eternal progression, eternal progress, pain and exaltation.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:19
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

What is the power of God? Knowledge..... How does the devil lead us captive? Through ignorane, deception, lies... Knowledge is power and no matter if we are in the premortal existance, on earth or in the spiritworld, those who posess more knowledge will always be in advantage, this is an eternal principle. In fact, knowledge is what makes God superior to us

Joseph Smith

If we get puffed up by thinking that we have much knowledge, we are apt to get a contentious spirit, and knowledge is necessary to do away [with] contention. The evil of being puffed up is not so great as the evil of contention. Knowledge does away darkness, supense and doubt, for where Knowledge is there is no doubt nor suspense nor darkness. There is no pain so awful as the pain of suspense. This is the condemnation of the wicked; their doubt and anxiety and suspense causes [p.176]weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. In knowledge there is power. God has more power than all other beings, because he has greater Knowledge, and hence he knows how to subject all other beings to him

Simon, how does this apply?
Alma 12:10 (9–11)
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

And, Simon, does this scripture indicate any chance for a second go around in life? Does it indicate there is no hell, that people will move on to another probation?

Is there a hell? Yes ... Is that hell endless? yes.. Does endless mean there will be no end to it? No.... See D&C 19:6-12 in post above. Does this mean we will have a second chance? No... I don't believe in a second chance, but I believe in eternal progression. I do not teach MMP's since I don't think it matters how we learn in th eternal world, important is in deed what we make out of the present moment. Everything else is secondary.

Note how interesting it is HOW the devil leads captive.. Because knowledge and understanding are taken away. Why is it taken away? Because we harden our hearts.. Love that scripture.

2 Ne. 28:19 (19–22)
19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;
20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

Is hell a place?

"A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,

Mormon 9:4

Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the bdamned souls in hell.

Hell is our knowledge of our ignorance while on earth. As clearer as we can see our own guilt, as greater is the pain. How painfull it must be to stand in God's presence and be dirty, according to mormon it will be worse than being in hell. Intelligece cleaveth unto intelligence.

Some here claim that Christ did not come to give peace. What does this verse say, Simon, that would counter that notion?

Alma 26:14
14 Yea, we have reason to praise him forever, for he is the Most High God, and has loosed our brethren from the chains of hell.

Christ's atonement, and mans repentance, Christ's mercy overpowering justice, mans hungering and thirsting after righteousness...does WHAT for man, Simon?

Christ did indeed teach that he did not come to bring peace, but what he ment with that is that those who follow him to find real peace will not be at peace with the world. They will be persecuted, cast out, loose friends, family, status in our society... They will have peace with Christ, but be in contention with the world. They will suffer, but will know the glory that will be revealed afterwards is worth the pain. They have an eye single to God`s glory. They don't try to impress humankind, but God alone. They will have peace while being in war.

[jo1952]

Christ did indeed teach that he did not come to bring peace, but what he ment with that is that those who follow him to find real peace will not be at peace with the world. They will be persecuted, cast out, loose friends, family, status in our society... They will have peace with Christ, but be in contention with the world. They will suffer, but will know the glory that will be revealed afterwards is worth the pain. They have an eye single to God`s glory. They don't try to impress humankind, but God alone. They will have peace while being in war.

Thank you for this, Simon.

[janderich]

Sorry I have come in late on this thread. Just want to present one quote that I have pondered often, perhaps it will be of value to some:

Truly it has been said that the grand aim of man’s creation is the development of a grand character, and grand character is by its very nature the product of a probationary discipline (President David O. McKay, “Man’s Soul Is As Endless As Time,” Instructor, Jan. 1960, 1–2, emphasis mine).

[lemuel]

Denver weighs in...
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2013/ ... talks.html

There are people or friends with whom I have private discussions about a number of topics, i.e the idea of multiple mortalities (not mentioned in the inquiry above but mentioned in a number of emails and blog comments). This is the position I have taken on that topic - ALWAYS: What possible good can it do you to know about your pre-earth record. The challenge in front of us all has “sufficient evil unto the day thereof” without, like the Indigo Girls, to “try and get it right” for some other life. The challenge is underway. Fight now. Win in this present estate and focus on what it takes to get out of here with honor. Nothing else matters. Isn’t this life challenge enough for you? You have time to contemplate what you might have done in some other place, time, circumstance or experience? If the topic were important enough that it should influence you today, don’t you think the scriptures would make the question plain enough so the doctrine is out in the open? If it is veiled, even if it were true, then it is left obscure for a reason.

[Simon]

Amen

[log]

Denver weighs in...
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2013/ ... talks.html

There are people or friends with whom I have private discussions about a number of topics, i.e the idea of multiple mortalities (not mentioned in the inquiry above but mentioned in a number of emails and blog comments). This is the position I have taken on that topic - ALWAYS: What possible good can it do you to know about your pre-earth record. The challenge in front of us all has “sufficient evil unto the day thereof” without, like the Indigo Girls, to “try and get it right” for some other life. The challenge is underway. Fight now. Win in this present estate and focus on what it takes to get out of here with honor. Nothing else matters. Isn’t this life challenge enough for you? You have time to contemplate what you might have done in some other place, time, circumstance or experience? If the topic were important enough that it should influence you today, don’t you think the scriptures would make the question plain enough so the doctrine is out in the open? If it is veiled, even if it were true, then it is left obscure for a reason.

I feel like I've heard this before.

[Franktalk]

Denver weighs in...
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2013/ ... talks.html

There are people or friends with whom I have private discussions about a number of topics, i.e the idea of multiple mortalities (not mentioned in the inquiry above but mentioned in a number of emails and blog comments). This is the position I have taken on that topic - ALWAYS: What possible good can it do you to know about your pre-earth record. The challenge in front of us all has “sufficient evil unto the day thereof” without, like the Indigo Girls, to “try and get it right” for some other life. The challenge is underway. Fight now. Win in this present estate and focus on what it takes to get out of here with honor. Nothing else matters. Isn’t this life challenge enough for you? You have time to contemplate what you might have done in some other place, time, circumstance or experience? If the topic were important enough that it should influence you today, don’t you think the scriptures would make the question plain enough so the doctrine is out in the open? If it is veiled, even if it were true, then it is left obscure for a reason.

The issue is not the mechanism of MMP. In this life that is unimportant. But the mechanics opens the character of God and opens the scriptures to a new meaning. For me it unlocked the love of God. For me it unlocked many of the hidden messages in the scriptures. The problem I have is when I discuss the scriptures I have to use my view of the scriptures in the commentary. I can't lie and say some other gospel. The only other thing I could do is remain silent. But I have been told to edify. I think the days to remain silent are gone. The mysteries are opening and the Spirit is pouring out. Some will grab on and others will dance around, still others will deny until they die. That is the way it has been for two thousand years why would I expect man to change.