MMP and scriptures

[log]

Here is what can happen if we don't heed the words of our prophets and apostles:

D&C 1:14-16
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

So who wants to follow someone that puts down the church and its leaders? This path leads downward into an abyss.

There are three things which must occur before they are cut off in that day. All three must occur.

1. They must not hear the voice of the Lord.
2. They must not hear the voice of his servants - whomsoever he shall send, in whatsoever calling, or lack thereof, they may be.
3. They must not hear the words of the prophets and the apostles - meaning the scriptures, as the Q12 was not organized until 1835, and Joseph was not made president of the Church until 1832. D&C 1 was given in 1831.

Speaking of straying from the ordinances, and breaking the everlasting covenant:

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.

3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.

4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Who, exactly, is in charge of the ordinance? It sure ain't Joe Member.

[laronius]

To espouse the doctrine of MMP requires flat out ignoring of so much scripture that I don't hardly even know where to begin. But I came across this scripture that sounds clear enough to me:

Alma 42:12
Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

It was almost as if Alma could foresee into the future that some would preach the doctrine of MMP and he wanted to be very clear that only in this life can we repent, that he said it twice for emphasis.

Also he speaks of mercy and justice. He points out that mercy cannot deny justice, if so God would cease to be God. If a man died having rejected the gospel and then were granted another mortal probation justice would be denied. He would have died in an unrepentant state but the law would have taken no effect.

And this is just the tip of the ice berg which teaches against MMP.

[log]

The problem with that is Alma 42:12 simply says a person must repent in mortality, which is this probationary state, or they cannot partake of God's mercy - the Atonement - without destroying God's justice.

Those who die in an unrepentant state go to hell, sure. It doesn't say anything else.

[Halm]

To espouse the doctrine of MMP requires flat out ignoring of so much scripture that I don't hardly even know where to begin. But I came across this scripture that sounds clear enough to me:

Alma 42:12
Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

It was almost as if Alma could foresee into the future that some would preach the doctrine of MMP and he wanted to be very clear that only in this life can we repent, that he said it twice for emphasis.

Also he speaks of mercy and justice. He points out that mercy cannot deny justice, if so God would cease to be God. If a man died having rejected the gospel and then were granted another mortal probation justice would be denied. He would have died in an unrepentant state but the law would have taken no effect.

And this is just the tip of the ice berg which teaches against MMP.

Alma did not say "that only in this life can we repent" as you stated, he said "this probationary state and preparatory state." In my way of thinking, and I have been known to be wrong more than a few times, our probationary and preparatory state started on this globe when Adam and Even were cast out of the garden. This probationary and preparatory state has gone on for over six thousand years at this point. And will continue until the Lord ends it all after the millennium when Satan and his buds are released again on us. That is a long time, not just my life time. Though I can see how you can construe it the way you have, depends on perspective I guess. I just wanted to say that Alma did not say what you said he did. If he had I probably would agree with you.

Just wanted to offer a different perspective on the scripture, as it does not give me evidence for or against MMPs.
Doug

[freedomforall]

To espouse the doctrine of MMP requires flat out ignoring of so much scripture that I don't hardly even know where to begin. But I came across this scripture that sounds clear enough to me:

Alma 42:12
Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

It was almost as if Alma could foresee into the future that some would preach the doctrine of MMP and he wanted to be very clear that only in this life can we repent, that he said it twice for emphasis.

Also he speaks of mercy and justice. He points out that mercy cannot deny justice, if so God would cease to be God. If a man died having rejected the gospel and then were granted another mortal probation justice would be denied. He would have died in an unrepentant state but the law would have taken no effect.

And this is just the tip of the ice berg which teaches against MMP.

:-BD
There is nothing in chapters 40-42 even remotely suggesting MMP. It absolutely baffles me as to how anyone could say otherwise. And this info was given to Alma by an angel of the Lord. And some members on this forum say that the Bible and the Book of Mormon have the same message. Really?

[Epistemology]

wellllllllll...

the scriptures don't teach MMP...

the prophets don't teach MMP...

the scriptures teach opposite MMP...

the prophets teach opposite MMP...

it's pretty clear to me what the answer is...

I wonder how many times this carousel can go round and round...

[laronius]

Alma did not say "that only in this life can we repent" as you stated, he said "this probationary state and preparatory state." In my way of thinking, and I have been known to be wrong more than a few times, our probationary and preparatory state started on this globe when Adam and Even were cast out of the garden. This probationary and preparatory state has gone on for over six thousand years at this point. And will continue until the Lord ends it all after the millennium when Satan and his buds are released again on us. That is a long time, not just my life time. Though I can see how you can construe it the way you have, depends on perspective I guess. I just wanted to say that Alma did not say what you said he did. If he had I probably would agree with you.

Just wanted to offer a different perspective on the scripture, as it does not give me evidence for or against MMPs.
Doug

Well if that isn't clear enough, how about:

Alma 34:32-35
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

[Jeremy]

I wonder how many times this carousel can go round and round...

Probably a few more probations at least. ;)

[Epistemology]

I wonder how many times this carousel can go round and round...

Probably a few more probations at least. ;)

good one...

too bad I wont remember it, maybe ill make less mistakes in the next go on LDSFF

[freedomforall]

To espouse the doctrine of MMP requires flat out ignoring of so much scripture that I don't hardly even know where to begin. But I came across this scripture that sounds clear enough to me:

Alma 42:12
Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

It was almost as if Alma could foresee into the future that some would preach the doctrine of MMP and he wanted to be very clear that only in this life can we repent, that he said it twice for emphasis.

Also he speaks of mercy and justice. He points out that mercy cannot deny justice, if so God would cease to be God. If a man died having rejected the gospel and then were granted another mortal probation justice would be denied. He would have died in an unrepentant state but the law would have taken no effect.

And this is just the tip of the ice berg which teaches against MMP.

Alma did not say "that only in this life can we repent" as you stated, he said "this probationary state and preparatory state." In my way of thinking, and I have been known to be wrong more than a few times, our probationary and preparatory state started on this globe when Adam and Even were cast out of the garden. This probationary and preparatory state has gone on for over six thousand years at this point. And will continue until the Lord ends it all after the millennium when Satan and his buds are released again on us. That is a long time, not just my life time. Though I can see how you can construe it the way you have, depends on perspective I guess. I just wanted to say that Alma did not say what you said he did. If he had I probably would agree with you.

Just wanted to offer a different perspective on the scripture, as it does not give me evidence for or against MMPs.
Doug

2 Ne. 2:21 .
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents. Probation...a time to repent and serve God.

2 Ne. 9:27
27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state! Of his probation...singular.

2 Ne. 33:9
9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation. Notice this is singular.

Hel. 13:38
38 But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. Everlastingly too late.

Morm. 9:28
28 Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God. Sounds like "one" probation

D&C 29:43 .
43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; Sounds like one probation, does it not?

Do these help explain that this life, this probationary state, this preparatory state... is the time to repent and serve God?

[freedomforall]

Alma did not say "that only in this life can we repent" as you stated, he said "this probationary state and preparatory state." In my way of thinking, and I have been known to be wrong more than a few times, our probationary and preparatory state started on this globe when Adam and Even were cast out of the garden. This probationary and preparatory state has gone on for over six thousand years at this point. And will continue until the Lord ends it all after the millennium when Satan and his buds are released again on us. That is a long time, not just my life time. Though I can see how you can construe it the way you have, depends on perspective I guess. I just wanted to say that Alma did not say what you said he did. If he had I probably would agree with you.

Just wanted to offer a different perspective on the scripture, as it does not give me evidence for or against MMPs.
Doug

Well if that isn't clear enough, how about:

Alma 34:32-35
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

:ymapplause:
This is so profound how could anyone not understand it?

[Franktalk]

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

That is true Jeremy, but when several passages all say the same thing it reinforces the message. Can you point to a passage that says
to trust the arm of the flesh? Now you must remove from your search those who by the Holy Spirit have had their words verified as scripture. Now the problem with that is different people will say opposite things yet both will say the Holy Spirit guided them. A quandary if you ask me.

[Halm]

2 Ne. 2:21 .
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents. Probation...a time to repent and serve God.

2 Ne. 9:27
27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state! Of his probation...singular.

2 Ne. 33:9
9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation. Notice this is singular.

Hel. 13:38
38 But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. Everlastingly too late.

Morm. 9:28
28 Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God. Sounds like "one" probation

D&C 29:43 .
43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; Sounds like one probation, does it not?

Do these help explain that this life, this probationary state, this preparatory state... is the time to repent and serve God?

I think you, freedom fighter and laronius are awesome in your testimony of the Lord and his gospel. I have no dog in this fight going on here, just saying that I can still see both sides, even in these scriptures. Be that as it may, I sure respect what you bring to your side of the discussion, I can see how much you love the Lord and his gospel and servants. I also respect the other side of this post and can see from their point of view as well. I must say I love the scriptures you bring out and the ferocity of your arguments. There will be no minds changed here from what I can see. I will look for your posts and read them, you seem very sincere and it would be great to do lunch sometime. I am always seeking more understanding on how people think and believe and like I said you two are awesome. (I'd love to do lunch with franktalk too) God bless.
Doug

[jo1952]

If it is false, then Jesus taught a false doctrine. Or Joseph did. Or both.

In accordance with what has been revealed to me, Matthias spoke with subtle distortion and half-truths---which is a specialty of the adversary; which is most likely why Joseph would have rejected his words as being false (if indeed we have a legitimate and untarnished version of what Joseph wrote). It is up to us to be able to discern the truth in all things; even when truth is buried inside of half-truths and distortions, and such.

There is other evidence that Joseph DID believe in multiple probations; even though there can be confusions when trying to determine the definitions in terminology (i.e., we see words like "transmigration", "multiple probations", "reincarnation", and now also "re-mortalization"--and the definitions of the very same terms can change depending upon who is using them. There is evidence that multiple probations was also believed by other early members of the Restored Church; even taught by them. I think it would be providential for readers to know that other evidences exist in order for them to have more information available to be considered and pondered. Is this just another truth which has been lost to us? I believe it is; but don't take my word for it.

[Simon]

Alma did not say "that only in this life can we repent" as you stated, he said "this probationary state and preparatory state." In my way of thinking, and I have been known to be wrong more than a few times, our probationary and preparatory state started on this globe when Adam and Even were cast out of the garden. This probationary and preparatory state has gone on for over six thousand years at this point. And will continue until the Lord ends it all after the millennium when Satan and his buds are released again on us. That is a long time, not just my life time. Though I can see how you can construe it the way you have, depends on perspective I guess. I just wanted to say that Alma did not say what you said he did. If he had I probably would agree with you.

Just wanted to offer a different perspective on the scripture, as it does not give me evidence for or against MMPs.
Doug

Well if that isn't clear enough, how about:

Alma 34:32-35
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

:ymapplause:

This is so profound how could anyone not understand it?

It is true, these scriptures are very clear. Something I learned though is that scriptures often stand in connection with other scriptures, and that only these connections make the picture whole. We often talk of eternal damnation, eternal and neverending punishment. We read and we understand with our humanmind what that means. But here is what the Lord teaches us about eternal punishment.

D&C 19:2-19

2 I, having accomplished and afinished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—

3 Retaining all apower, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am ENDLESS.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ENDLESS torment.

7 Again, it is written ETERNAL DAMNATION ; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold,I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name . Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

I make this point not to proove mmp's, but just to show that the scriptures are like a puzzle, and that we only can see te whole picture of doctrines if we put those pieces together. We often times will not understand a doctrine just out of one chapter, it's not always that simple.

These scriptures make clear that what we understand as eternal punishment is called that way because God's name is Eternal, and because only this way it will work upon the hearts of humankind . But wether there is an end of the damnation or not is and will always be in God's hands.

No matter wether MMP's are true or false, it will always be our duty to focuse on this life, to repent and to come unto God. Because this is what matters most to all of us, even if MMP's were true.

[Franktalk]

Simon,

It is true that the things of God are not the things of man. In scripture words and ideas are described from one passage to another. In many cases the passages can be read in a temporal manner and one message seems to be described. But God is not temporal but a Spirit and He talks to our spirit by spiritual means. Even in the scriptures there is a spiritual manner of interpretation. To achieve this message we must use the developed spirit within us to read the words. This comes from the heart and not the logic of our brain. The love of God directs me when I read the scriptures and over time I have come to see the love of God even in the Old Testament. Where many see a harsh God and punishments I see a loving God intervening in the affairs of men to move them down the path towards salvation.

[Simon]

Simon,

It is true that the things of God are not the things of man. In scripture words and ideas are described from one passage to another. In many cases the passages can be read in a temporal manner and one message seems to be described. But God is not temporal but a Spirit and He talks to our spirit by spiritual means. Even in the scriptures there is a spiritual manner of interpretation. To achieve this message we must use the developed spirit within us to read the words. This comes from the heart and not the logic of our brain. The love of God directs me when I read the scriptures and over time I have come to see the love of God even in the Old Testament. Where many see a harsh God and punishments I see a loving God intervening in the affairs of men to move them down the path towards salvation.

I live in a very small valley surrounded by different hills. I always loved to climb all those different hills. Something I noted was how totally different the same valley looked from each hill. I experienced the same thing with the scriptures. Our view, or understanding of them changes depending on where we stand, and as closer as we draw to the Lord, as clearer will it become. Once we stand on the "mountain of the Lord" we will see truth with his eyes, and at that moment we will think to ourselve "wow, it's the same scriptures, but it's meaning has totally changed"

[pilgrim]

I have a question, so those people who do not hear the gospel and they
pass from this mortal life, it is said that they will be taught the gospel on
the other side...then they can decide for themselves whether or not to join...so
is that it if they join they can work on their baptism of fire, calling and election and
second comforter on the other side...or is this where MMP comes into play, is it that easy
for them?? Or do they have to come back in another probation, life, to achieve these things.

Also what about those whom the gospel was preached to them and they reject it in this life,
what of them, does this MMP come into play for these people? Margo.

[freedomforall]

Simon,

It is true that the things of God are not the things of man. In scripture words and ideas are described from one passage to another. In many cases the passages can be read in a temporal manner and one message seems to be described. But God is not temporal but a Spirit and He talks to our spirit by spiritual means. Even in the scriptures there is a spiritual manner of interpretation. To achieve this message we must use the developed spirit within us to read the words. This comes from the heart and not the logic of our brain. The love of God directs me when I read the scriptures and over time I have come to see the love of God even in the Old Testament. Where many see a harsh God and punishments I see a loving God intervening in the affairs of men to move them down the path towards salvation.

I live in a very small valley surrounded by different hills. I always loved to climb all those different hills. Something I noted was how totally different the same valley looked from each hill. I experienced the same thing with the scriptures. Our view, or understanding of them changes depending on where we stand, and as closer as we draw to the Lord, as clearer will it become. Once we stand on the "mountain of the Lord" we will see truth with his eyes, and at that moment we will think to ourselve "wow, it's the same scriptures, but it's meaning has totally changed"

So what is being insinuated here is this:
From God's point of view, if person A gets one understanding from scripture he should follow that. Person B gets a different understanding from scripture, and he follows that. Person C does the same...person D, same ...pretty soon nobody knows what scriptures say, because everybody's understandings vary. This type of thing is exactly why God told JS that all the churches in his day were wrong...too many incorrect interpretations. Do you see where I'm going with this? This is not God's way. His words are to be understood only one way...the way He wants them understood...and this can only be done by the spirit. His words are part of His character. Now, if two people each claiming to receive insight from the HG what any one scripture means, yet they vary in substance...one of them is off base.
If God's word was to be changed from what He wants understood...then no man could exercise the necessary faith unto salvation, because they would have a weak understanding of His character. For it is in His word that we gain sure faith and confidence to exercise said faith to go home to God. Nor would justice and mercy be in full effect.

Read Lecture IV: http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_o ... E%20FOURTH" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Simon]

Simon,

It is true that the things of God are not the things of man. In scripture words and ideas are described from one passage to another. In many cases the passages can be read in a temporal manner and one message seems to be described. But God is not temporal but a Spirit and He talks to our spirit by spiritual means. Even in the scriptures there is a spiritual manner of interpretation. To achieve this message we must use the developed spirit within us to read the words. This comes from the heart and not the logic of our brain. The love of God directs me when I read the scriptures and over time I have come to see the love of God even in the Old Testament. Where many see a harsh God and punishments I see a loving God intervening in the affairs of men to move them down the path towards salvation.

I live in a very small valley surrounded by different hills. I always loved to climb all those different hills. Something I noted was how totally different the same valley looked from each hill. I experienced the same thing with the scriptures. Our view, or understanding of them changes depending on where we stand, and as closer as we draw to the Lord, as clearer will it become. Once we stand on the "mountain of the Lord" we will see truth with his eyes, and at that moment we will think to ourselve "wow, it's the same scriptures, but it's meaning has totally changed"

So what is being insinuated here is this:
From God's point of view, if person A gets one understanding from scripture he should follow that. Person B gets a different understanding from scripture, and he follows that. Person C does the same...person D, same ...pretty soon nobody knows what scriptures say, because everybody's understandings vary. This type of thing is exactly why God told JS that all the churches in his day were wrong...too many incorrect interpretations. Do you see where I'm going with this? This is not God's way. His words are to be understood only one way...the way He wants them understood...and this can only be done by the spirit. His words are part of His character. Now, if two people each claiming to receive insight from the HG what any one scripture means, yet they vary in substance...one of them is off base.
If God's word was to be changed from what He wants understood...then no man could exercise the necessary faith unto salvation, because they would have a weak understanding of His character. For it is in His word that we gain sure faith and confidence to exercise said faith to go home to God. Nor would justice and mercy be in full effect.

Read Lecture IV: http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_o ... E%20FOURTH" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am seeing where you are going with this, but this is not what I ment. What I ment with my analogy is that as closer as we come to the Lord, as more truths will be revealed to us. Truths that we will suddenly discover in scriptures where we have not seen them before. It's less about correcting false views, but it's all about getting a deeper understanding of them. Once we see the scriptures from the Lords mountain ( to use my example ) we will see all truth in all depth, and our understanding of them will be perfect. We will not just see the words, the laws, the logical meaning, we will see hidden treasures, we will find endless wisdom.

So far we do not find scriptures that clearly teach that MMPs are true or false. We know how the resurrection will work, we have these truths. But as closer as WE come to the Lord, as clearer will be our understanding of how things will work in detail. It will increase, not cast away true interpretaions we already have. It will give further light. This is what I was trying to say.

In certain instances that may truely mean though that we may have to change personal interpretations. Let the Lord teach

[Franktalk]

So what is being insinuated here is this:
From God's point of view, if person A gets one understanding from scripture he should follow that. Person B gets a different understanding from scripture, and he follows that. Person C does the same...person D, same ...pretty soon nobody knows what scriptures say, because everybody's understandings vary. This type of thing is exactly why God told JS that all the churches in his day were wrong...too many incorrect interpretations. Do you see where I'm going with this? This is not God's way. His words are to be understood only one way...the way He wants them understood...and this can only be done by the spirit. His words are part of His character. Now, if two people each claiming to receive insight from the HG what any one scripture means, yet they vary in substance...one of them is off base.
If God's word was to be changed from what He wants understood...then no man could exercise the necessary faith unto salvation, because they would have a weak understanding of His character. For it is in His word that we gain sure faith and confidence to exercise said faith to go home to God. Nor would justice and mercy be in full effect.

Read Lecture IV: http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_o ... E%20FOURTH" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And of course you know what all truth is. I don't think so. I know I don't know all truth. I know we see through the glass darkly. So we will all see truth differently. The problem with the old churches was that they were teaching the same thing the lDS leaders are now teaching. They said then and still say to follow the church and the leaders of the church. We can only know the things of God by going to God directly.

Jesus did not come to the world to bring peace. He came to set one against the other, all of us fighting to know enough to overcome this world and return to the Father. The LDS church is a church of temporal laws. A very necessary step but it not enough.

[Simon]

We should not forget that Joseph did not teach the members all he knew, he did not expound all scripture to them. The prophets today also don't teach ALL truth out there. There is knowledge within the scriptures that has to come by personal revelation to those who are ready for it.

[azalea.rubicon]

Everyone has great comments. We sometimes forget that when we ponder and discuss topic such as this, we comprehend and hypothesize with a mortal man's understanding and intellect. Brigham Young said that "...when we contemplate the nature of eternity, our mind stop at a certain point because we can't comprehend it and understand the nature of "eternity". We should at least attempt to understand that there are many things and purposes in our existence that we will never know, understand and comprehend while our mind has been conditioned with many different beliefs, culture and tradition. Believing it or not unbelieving this doctrine doesn't make it any less true.

[jo1952]

Simon,

It is true that the things of God are not the things of man. In scripture words and ideas are described from one passage to another. In many cases the passages can be read in a temporal manner and one message seems to be described. But God is not temporal but a Spirit and He talks to our spirit by spiritual means. Even in the scriptures there is a spiritual manner of interpretation. To achieve this message we must use the developed spirit within us to read the words. This comes from the heart and not the logic of our brain. The love of God directs me when I read the scriptures and over time I have come to see the love of God even in the Old Testament. Where many see a harsh God and punishments I see a loving God intervening in the affairs of men to move them down the path towards salvation.

I live in a very small valley surrounded by different hills. I always loved to climb all those different hills. Something I noted was how totally different the same valley looked from each hill. I experienced the same thing with the scriptures. Our view, or understanding of them changes depending on where we stand, and as closer as we draw to the Lord, as clearer will it become. Once we stand on the "mountain of the Lord" we will see truth with his eyes, and at that moment we will think to ourselve "wow, it's the same scriptures, but it's meaning has totally changed"

This is what I have been experiencing. And as I draw closer---in ascension (inwardly and outwardly)---I see things taught in scripture from the "view" which I liken to the different levels of heaven, and of the amount of light I am able to bear (i.e., as different as the moon, the stars, and the sun). In fact, I can't think of a better way to try to describe it, than the ways presented in scripture. I guess that should be no surprise. Now that I am experiencing it, I can understand why it IS presented in this way.

Interestingly, I have thought for most of my life that I already DID understand and have the interpretation of scripture pretty much nailed down. But I was only seeing scripture in that way because it was all I was ready for; and because that is the level of understanding which the Church was teaching me. I didn't know that I was so blind (and now I realize I still am blind because I still can't see God through the veil); even though I thought that I could see. I even thought that I could see all that I needed to see; that somehow, in some unexplained and magical way, whatever I didn't yet know would be made complete. Now I understand that if I can't see God now while I am on the earth, then I don't know Him; and He will not know me. In my complacency, I was damning myself (preventing my own progression).

[Simon]

Excactly my experience aswell