MMP and scriptures

[superdan]

Wow Anthony. This is worth a bump.

I recently read the testimony of Daniel Rogers here http://thesecondcomforter.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; He experienced Christ's embrace...
He gives some very good insight on some things that many here are experiencing,,, Unbelief.
We must be open to one another's insights.

From Daniel Rogers -

Ask the Lord to show you what unbelief you have. If you ask with a sincere heart, He will answer you. A sincere heart means that you are willing to accept the answer no matter what it is without preconceptions. Work on casting aside that unbelief. This is the hard part. We have accepted many traditions that are unbelief. The Book of Mormon will be your key. It was written to you, its reader.

In the period that has followed, my mind has been completely blown by the knowledge communicated from heaven. I had to lay down long-held beliefs that were really philosophies of men. A quality that is attractive to heaven is an openness to learning. I have also learned that if Angels have not come to you, then it is because of some unbelief that you are holding onto. Unbelief is more than not believing, it also includes belief in errors or incorrect belief. You may not even be aware of what it is. You may think it is truth when it is not.

There is so much said like, "I know this is right" "and I can prove it by this scripture". Open your heart to your own unbelief.

He said "my mind has been completely blown by the knowledge communicated from heaven." We need to be open to endless possibilities of truth. I want my mind blown away with knowledge from heaven. It will not happen if we are close minded, and not willing to accept other possibilities of truth.

P.S. I believe in Re-Mortalizations. The spirit has spoken this truth to me through the scriptures.

I loved the Abraham scriptures Freddy!

A lot of folks on this thread are damn right eh?

Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them; And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them. Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.

And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

So ... Moroni was concerned we wouldn't understand? Is it all crystal clear? Is it worth looking at things from a different perspective? I mean if you're right then you better be damn right because that's the end of the road for your progression on that particular matter.

Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

So did he clearly mean the interpretation given to Joseph or to us?

Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

[log]

Sigh... the reason I have abandoned this thread is because, despite everything I said being correct, it has been taken as an attack on those who believe the doctrine, or an attack on the truth of the doctrine, and prideful persons have been taking potshots at each other and me.

I also tire of the self-congratulatory, smugly condescending poses some strike in relation to believing this or that mystery - and in so posing, reveal that they have not knowledge, but either belief, or, at best, faith.

Those who know don't contend.

If you think I mean you, then I do. If you don't think I mean you, then I don't.

[freedomforall]

Why not FF? Harmston of TLC fame convinced a bunch of gullible Saints to follow his dreams. MMP was one of his signature baits to reel in his catch. I could go on and on. False prophets and false teachers are a dime a dozen out there. They will always convince a few naive misguided souls to join their party. Just look at Warren Jeffs. He still has his flock bamboozled even after raping half their daughters. Stupidity knows no bounds. :ymparty:

Is this the same Warren Jeffs that believes in D and C section 132?

Maybe if he had been using either the 1835 or the 1844 version of the D&C, he wouldn't be in his current situation.

Perhaps if you believed chapters 40-42 in Alma you wouldn't be in this current situation of having to believe in more than one probation. And you would believe that this life is the time to prepare to meet God. And you don't have a monopoly on receiving higher inspiration. I've asked many questions that have solidly been ignored. Reading into scripture that which doesn't exist is very problematic.
Basically, it has been implied that you and Frank are above church teachings and that the leaders aren't to be followed because they're men. This is dangerous ground to walk on.

[freedomforall]

I just had a thought that I feel I have to share out of intellectual honesty. I still am not convinced of MMP, but there is a teaching that I can think of that supports it.

It's not scriptural AFAIK, and I don't even know who taught it - it is definitely within the LDS tradition, whether correct or not I don't know.

This is the teaching that parents who have lost children at a young age will have the opportunity to raise them during the millennium.

This would require another mortal probation for those children. They can't be resurrected as the resurrection is a final state, and it doesn't make sense that resurrected children could be "raised" by parents. Also if the parents have since passed on prior to the millennium, it seems to me that they must also be brought back in some type of mortality. I have always thought it must be some type of translated status, but it could also be many other things, including MMP.

Remember that everyone in the Millennium will be of a different form? Those righteous existing when the savior comes will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, changed into a more than fleshly existence. Remember how some people have been Translated? They did not have to experience death at all, but were changed into a body and spirit intact with their flesh changed from mortality to heavenly existence.
All children under the age of accountability that die will be resurrected for further training by the parents. The parents will not be in the flesh as we know it.
I do not know where to get the details. Maybe someone can find them and post it.

They don't get twinkled right at the beginning of the millennium. It says they will live to the age of a tree, and then will not taste of death but be changed in the twinkling of an eye. I do indeed believe that people will be experiencing mortality throughout the millennium. One reason for that is because Satan will be loosed for a little season at the end of the millennium. I don't think anyone that has been translated or resurrected will be susceptible to his temptations, meaning there must be still some plain ol' vanilla mortals that will be tried and tested.

Thanks for the clarification. You are correct.

[freedomforall]

Do we believe that God the father once was a saviour? Could he possible be taken serious by Christ if the father would not have experienced a similar mortal experience ? How can we ever become God's, require our son to fulfill such a great sacrifice if we hadn't experienced it before ourselves ? Was God once a man with faults, was he perfect as Christ ? Did he progress in different probations ? Can we learn opposition in all things only on this earth? Will such a short lifespan decide wether we become Gods or devils ? Or will we be able to learn all the rest just in the spiritworld? .. If we can only fall as long as being in a mortal experience, how could satan fall ? Did he fall as a mortal ? If so, when and where was he a mortal?

Satan fell in heaven when he rebelled against God's plan to allow his children the right to free agency to choose good over evil. Satan has never had a body and never will. To believe in MMP's is to say that Satan should have another chance to do good and let him possess a body. Never happen! After all, isn't he a child of God also?
It only stands to reason that God the Father would have gone through a mortal life. However, Jehovah, His Son and our Savior, had not yet. This is why he came to earth and experienced all the pains, anguish and torment associated with sin. He also experienced all the sorrows and shame associated with the human experience. He went below all things and above all things so he would have a perfect understanding of how to succor us.
This life will indeed tell us whether we are Gods or devils. Read Alma chap. 40-42 When we repent with full purpose of heart, with a brken heart and contrite spirit, we are rendered clean, fit to enter God's kingdom. For those who choose evil over good, having the law before them, they will suffer for their own sins in hell, then go into the Telestial kingdom. Those without the law before them will have further opportunities to progress. These are those who would have accepted the gospel had they learned of it.

I believe this to be completely false, MMP does NOT give satan another chance. Unpardonable sin = No forgiveness in the world or the WORLD to come. Your OUT! Or the word the hebrews and jospeh smith used was "destroyed".

I think you misunderstood what I said. My point is that Jo1952 states that everyone that doesn't get born again in this life will have another run at life and another, and another, and another...until they get it right. I know Satan is a son of perdition, I was merely being facetious in what I said. Hope this helps.

[Franktalk]

Log,

Your idea is that if we use the scriptures it will not support MMP in a clear way. But what is true is that your interpretation of the scriptures will not support MMP. The scriptures themselves only speak to us as revealed by the spirit of God. Unless the Spirit of God helps you see the meaning of the scriptures then you will only see the temporal words. So maybe we should chat about what exactly the Spirit reveals in scripture and compare it to the earth and its history.

I believe that this dispensation has been going on for about 6800 years. In my view this matches the age and linage of the people spoken about in the Bible. Before this there were other dispensations on the earth and many artifacts of those dispensations are still buried in the ground. So my view of the scriptures matches what I have found in the world. I believe that man was formed by the dust of the earth using patterns that have been used in many dispensations before this one. Some of the patterns for animals were used in prior dispensations so we find evidence of them in the ground and we find others that are not in this dispensation. All consistent with my view of the scriptures.

Moving along to our bodies and the bodies of all creatures I have found in my study of molecular biology that all creatures are falling apart because of the decay of DNA over time. It seems that we were deigned to last just so long before the pattern wears out. This also is in line with my view of the scriptures. But there are some who believe that man came from an accident of nature. That complexity arose from randomness. Like a tornado going through a junk yard and a complete 747 jet being made in the chaos.

I have given two examples of how I look at the world and how I look at the scriptures. What I see around me reflects what I believe. But the world does not believe what I believe. So let me contrast what I believe verses the world. Then compare your own beliefs against mine and the world. See if your beliefs are of the world. If they are then your interpretation of the scriptures is of the world as well.

I believe in a world wide flood that killed all land creatures save those on the ark. The world does not believe a world wide flood took place. Many people twist the scriptures so it means a local flood or some other event so they can believe the ideas of man and some twisted view of the scriptures.

I believe in the creation of man in God's image. I believe in the creation of all life on the earth by God in a supernatural event. This was done about 6800 years ago. The world believes that life started billions of years ago and has evolved into the creatures we see around us to day.

I believe that the entire universe is reshaped at the start of each dispensation. The world believes that the universe came into existence some 17 billion years ago in some cosmic explosion and nature forces gathered the stars and galaxies together.

My beliefs are consistent across all things. I reject all things of the world. I do not dance to the tune of the scriptures one moment and then dance to the tune of evolution, astrophysics, biology, or geology in the next. So tell me log are your beliefs consistent and do you reject the ideas of the world?

[jo1952]

Sigh... the reason I have abandoned this thread is because, despite everything I said being correct, it has been taken as an attack on those who believe the doctrine, or an attack on the truth of the doctrine, and prideful persons have been taking potshots at each other and me.

I also tire of the self-congratulatory, smugly condescending poses some strike in relation to believing this or that mystery - and in so posing, reveal that they have not knowledge, but either belief, or, at best, faith.

Those who know don't contend.

If you think I mean you, then I do. If you don't think I mean you, then I don't.

"despite everything I said being correct" Since everything you said is correct, we can ignore anything different which the Holy Spirit might be trying to reveal. #-o

[freedomforall]

Do we believe that God the father once was a saviour? Could he possible be taken serious by Christ if the father would not have experienced a similar mortal experience ? How can we ever become God's, require our son to fulfill such a great sacrifice if we hadn't experienced it before ourselves ? Was God once a man with faults, was he perfect as Christ ? Did he progress in different probations ? Can we learn opposition in all things only on this earth? Will such a short lifespan decide wether we become Gods or devils ? Or will we be able to learn all the rest just in the spiritworld? .. If we can only fall as long as being in a mortal experience, how could satan fall ? Did he fall as a mortal ? If so, when and where was he a mortal?

Satan fell in heaven when he rebelled against God's plan to allow his children the right to free agency to choose good over evil. Satan has never had a body and never will. To believe in MMP's is to say that Satan should have another chance to do good and let him possess a body. Never happen! After all, isn't he a child of God also?
It only stands to reason that God the Father would have gone through a mortal life. However, Jehovah, His Son and our Savior, had not yet. This is why he came to earth and experienced all the pains, anguish and torment associated with sin. He also experienced all the sorrows and shame associated with the human experience. He went below all things and above all things so he would have a perfect understanding of how to succor us.
This life will indeed tell us whether we are Gods or devils. Read Alma chap. 40-42 When we repent with full purpose of heart, with a brken heart and contrite spirit, we are rendered clean, fit to enter God's kingdom. For those who choose evil over good, having the law before them, they will suffer for their own sins in hell, then go into the Telestial kingdom. Those without the law before them will have further opportunities to progress. These are those who would have accepted the gospel had they learned of it.

I believe this to be completely false, MMP does NOT give satan another chance. Unpardonable sin = No forgiveness in the world or the WORLD to come. Your OUT! Or the word the hebrews and jospeh smith used was "destroyed".

[Franktalk]

Satan fell in heaven when he rebelled against God's plan to allow his children the right to free agency to choose good over evil. Satan has never had a body and never will. To believe in MMP's is to say that Satan should have another chance to do good and let him possess a body. Never happen! After all, isn't he a child of God also?
It only stands to reason that God the Father would have gone through a mortal life. However, Jehovah, His Son and our Savior, had not yet. This is why he came to earth and experienced all the pains, anguish and torment associated with sin. He also experienced all the sorrows and shame associated with the human experience. He went below all things and above all things so he would have a perfect understanding of how to succor us.
This life will indeed tell us whether we are Gods or devils. Read Alma chap. 40-42 When we repent with full purpose of heart, with a brken heart and contrite spirit, we are rendered clean, fit to enter God's kingdom. For those who choose evil over good, having the law before them, they will suffer for their own sins in hell, then go into the Telestial kingdom. Those without the law before them will have further opportunities to progress. These are those who would have accepted the gospel had they learned of it.

I believe this to be completely false, MMP does NOT give satan another chance. Unpardonable sin = No forgiveness in the world or the WORLD to come. Your OUT! Or the word the hebrews and jospeh smith used was "destroyed".

Not sure how to respond to this.

[Franktalk]

Satan fell in heaven when he rebelled against God's plan to allow his children the right to free agency to choose good over evil. Satan has never had a body and never will. To believe in MMP's is to say that Satan should have another chance to do good and let him possess a body. Never happen! After all, isn't he a child of God also?
It only stands to reason that God the Father would have gone through a mortal life. However, Jehovah, His Son and our Savior, had not yet. This is why he came to earth and experienced all the pains, anguish and torment associated with sin. He also experienced all the sorrows and shame associated with the human experience. He went below all things and above all things so he would have a perfect understanding of how to succor us.
This life will indeed tell us whether we are Gods or devils. Read Alma chap. 40-42 When we repent with full purpose of heart, with a brken heart and contrite spirit, we are rendered clean, fit to enter God's kingdom. For those who choose evil over good, having the law before them, they will suffer for their own sins in hell, then go into the Telestial kingdom. Those without the law before them will have further opportunities to progress. These are those who would have accepted the gospel had they learned of it.

I believe this to be completely false, MMP does NOT give satan another chance. Unpardonable sin = No forgiveness in the world or the WORLD to come. Your OUT! Or the word the hebrews and jospeh smith used was "destroyed".

Still not sure but I may be getting close.

[freedomforall]

Sigh... the reason I have abandoned this thread is because, despite everything I said being correct, it has been taken as an attack on those who believe the doctrine, or an attack on the truth of the doctrine, and prideful persons have been taking potshots at each other and me.

I also tire of the self-congratulatory, smugly condescending poses some strike in relation to believing this or that mystery - and in so posing, reveal that they have not knowledge, but either belief, or, at best, faith.

Those who know don't contend.

If you think I mean you, then I do. If you don't think I mean you, then I don't.

"despite everything I said being correct" Since everything you said is correct, we can ignore anything different which the Holy Spirit might be trying to reveal. #-o

Take your own advice and discard everything you think you know and start afresh, maybe you missed something like the Restoration.

See if this matches any notion of MMP. This is so clear, it cannot be misunderstood, only discarded due to unbelief.
Alma 40:11-14
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

The Resurrection and Restoration are covered in succeeding chapters.

[Franktalk]

Satan fell in heaven when he rebelled against God's plan to allow his children the right to free agency to choose good over evil. Satan has never had a body and never will. To believe in MMP's is to say that Satan should have another chance to do good and let him possess a body. Never happen! After all, isn't he a child of God also?
It only stands to reason that God the Father would have gone through a mortal life. However, Jehovah, His Son and our Savior, had not yet. This is why he came to earth and experienced all the pains, anguish and torment associated with sin. He also experienced all the sorrows and shame associated with the human experience. He went below all things and above all things so he would have a perfect understanding of how to succor us.
This life will indeed tell us whether we are Gods or devils. Read Alma chap. 40-42 When we repent with full purpose of heart, with a brken heart and contrite spirit, we are rendered clean, fit to enter God's kingdom. For those who choose evil over good, having the law before them, they will suffer for their own sins in hell, then go into the Telestial kingdom. Those without the law before them will have further opportunities to progress. These are those who would have accepted the gospel had they learned of it.

I believe this to be completely false, MMP does NOT give satan another chance. Unpardonable sin = No forgiveness in the world or the WORLD to come. Your OUT! Or the word the hebrews and jospeh smith used was "destroyed".

A couple more of these post and I will not need to figure out how to respond because I can roll off the offending post off the page. Wow what a technique this is. I wonder if anyone else on this site has figured this out?

[freedomforall]

Satan fell in heaven when he rebelled against God's plan to allow his children the right to free agency to choose good over evil. Satan has never had a body and never will. To believe in MMP's is to say that Satan should have another chance to do good and let him possess a body. Never happen! After all, isn't he a child of God also?
It only stands to reason that God the Father would have gone through a mortal life. However, Jehovah, His Son and our Savior, had not yet. This is why he came to earth and experienced all the pains, anguish and torment associated with sin. He also experienced all the sorrows and shame associated with the human experience. He went below all things and above all things so he would have a perfect understanding of how to succor us.
This life will indeed tell us whether we are Gods or devils. Read Alma chap. 40-42 When we repent with full purpose of heart, with a brken heart and contrite spirit, we are rendered clean, fit to enter God's kingdom. For those who choose evil over good, having the law before them, they will suffer for their own sins in hell, then go into the Telestial kingdom. Those without the law before them will have further opportunities to progress. These are those who would have accepted the gospel had they learned of it.

A couple more of these post and I will not need to figure out how to respond because I can roll off the offending post off the page. Wow what a technique this is. I wonder if anyone else on this site has figured this out?

Here, read the original again: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31017&start=150" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[freedomforall]

Satan fell in heaven when he rebelled against God's plan to allow his children the right to free agency to choose good over evil. Satan has never had a body and never will. To believe in MMP's is to say that Satan should have another chance to do good and let him possess a body. Never happen! After all, isn't he a child of God also?
It only stands to reason that God the Father would have gone through a mortal life. However, Jehovah, His Son and our Savior, had not yet. This is why he came to earth and experienced all the pains, anguish and torment associated with sin. He also experienced all the sorrows and shame associated with the human experience. He went below all things and above all things so he would have a perfect understanding of how to succor us.
This life will indeed tell us whether we are Gods or devils. Read Alma chap. 40-42 When we repent with full purpose of heart, with a brken heart and contrite spirit, we are rendered clean, fit to enter God's kingdom. For those who choose evil over good, having the law before them, they will suffer for their own sins in hell, then go into the Telestial kingdom. Those without the law before them will have further opportunities to progress. These are those who would have accepted the gospel had they learned of it.

A couple more of these post and I will not need to figure out how to respond because I can roll off the offending post off the page. Wow what a technique this is. I wonder if anyone else on this site has figured this out?

Have you read Alma 40-42 yet?
Has anyone on the site caught the insinuations that believing and following the Apostles and other leaders of high calling are not to be listened to, because they're men?
Has anyone noticed that neither Jo nor Frank have answered my questions. Skirting around them, questions, and coming on stronger with teachings, inconsistent with scripture has become common place.
Having inspiration given us by the Holy Ghost is one thing, but receiving information by an angel is something else altogether. Alma reveals that which an angel revealed to him. Just whose account should we believe is most accurate? An angel or someone's conflicting info that they claim to be true.

[Franktalk]

Have you read Alma 40-42 yet?
Has anyone on the site caught the insinuations that believing and following the Apostles and other leaders of high calling are not to be listened to, because they're men?
Has anyone noticed that neither Jo nor Frank have answered my questions. Skirting around them, questions, and coming on stronger with teachings, inconsistent with scripture has become common place.
Having inspiration given us by the Holy Ghost is one thing, but receiving information by an angel is something else altogether. Alma reveals that which an angel revealed to him. Just whose account should we believe is most accurate? An angel or someone's conflicting info that they claim to be true.

I think Alma 40 and 41 can say many things. But just listing scripture does nothing. I like to write about what scripture means to me. Take the following.

Alma 40

9 Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead; and there is a space between the time of death and the resurrection. And now, concerning this space of time, what becometh of the souls of men is the thing which I have inquired diligently of the Lord to know; and this is the thing of which I do know.
10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.

It seems to me that we experience our birth so we know that time. Then we experience death so we know that time as well. Then in the resurrection we experience that time. But verse 10 implies that there are more times known to God. Just what times could that be?

And then Alma goes on in verse 12 through 14 to describe what happens to the righteous and what happens to the wicked. The righteous wait in paradise for the resurrection. But the wicked are cast to darkness. And just where is this darkness? What happens there?

This earth and the people on it are in darkness. We have a veil over us so so we can not see. The flesh is weak and the suffering is great on this earth. We burn with the desire to return to the Father but we do not know how. We are here for eternity from one dispensation to the next until the day comes and we become a new man and the old man dies. That old man that used to be us, that old man that will stay on the earth as the corrupt flesh. Then when we are righteous we take on a new body that is not corrupt.

You see the words are the same that you and I read. But what we take away in meaning may not be the same. I have just shown a few verses. Just as we disagree on these I am pretty sure we will disagree on the rest.

The rest of your comments are not worth responding to.

[Franktalk]

FF,

I am weak flesh and can not be trusted. Are the 15 flesh?

2 Nephi 4:34
O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. (Emphasis added)

[Jeremy]

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

[TZONE]

Excuse me!

Perhaps you should read this.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31017&start=150" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just one mroe time.

[log]

So tell me log are your beliefs consistent and do you reject the ideas of the world?

Unfortunately, a good offense is not a good defense. And defensiveness is a sign of insecurity, not knowledge.

Your idea is that if we use the scriptures it will not support MMP in a clear way.

No, my idea is that the scriptures do not teach MMP. And this idea has been borne out for the length of this thread thus far.

But I'm going to do something you've not done yet. Those verses in Alma you keep skipping?

10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

The underlined bits preclude us from saying "as soon as they are taken to God, the spirits of the righteous are received into paradise, and the spirits of the wicked are cast into outer darkness."

That is why I have never said I could prove, logically, that MMP is false. There is a gap which prevents that from being said, in righteousness.

Moreover, MMP is reincarnation, literally, and some in the Church have said such teaching is false, citing Joseph Smith - except Joseph didn't say that.

Here's what he did say.

Transmigration a Doctrine of the Devil

Section Two 1834-37, p.104

I told Joshua I did not understand his remarks on the resurrection, and wished him to explain. He replied that he did not feel impressed by the Spirit to unfold it further at present, but perhaps he might at some future time.

Section Two 1834-37, p.104

I then withdrew to transact some business with a gentleman who had called to see me, when Joshua informed my scribe that he was born in Cambridge, Washington County, New York. He says that all the railroads, canals, and other improvements are projected by the spirits of the resurrection. The silence spoken of by John the Revelator, which is to be in heaven for the space of half an hour, is between 1830 and 1851, during which time the judgments of God will be poured out, after that time there will be peace. * * *

Section Two 1834-37, p.104

Suspicions were entertained that the said Joshua was the noted Matthias of New York, spoken so much of in the public prints, on account of the trials he endured in that place, before a court of justice, for murder, man-slaughter, contempt of court, whipping his daughter, etc.; for that last two crimes he was imprisoned and came out about four months since. After some equivocating, he confessed that he really was Matthias.

Section Two 1834-37, p.105

After supper I proposed that he should deliver a lecture to us. He did so, sitting in his chair.

Section Two 1834-37, p.105

He commenced by saying, God said, let there by light, and there was light, which he dwelt upon throughout his discourse. He made some very excellent remarks, but his mind was evidently filled with darkness. * * *

Section Two 1834-37, p.105

I resumed conversation with Matthias, and desired him to enlighten my mind more on his views respecting the resurrection.

Section Two 1834-37, p.105

He said that he possessed the spirit of his fathers, that he was a literal descendant of Matthias, the Apostle, who was chosen in the place of Judas that fell; that his spirit was resurrected in him; and that this was the way or scheme of eternal life--this transmigration of soul or spirit from father to son.

Section Two 1834-37, p.105

I told him that his doctrine was of the devil, that he was in reality in possession of a wicked and depraved spirit, although he professed to be the Spirit of truth itself; and he said also that he possessed the soul of Christ.

Not the same thing as MMP, it would appear.

You will find I am no hypocrite, and I judge justly.

[clarkkent14]

log I apreciate your quest for truth on the matter.

For me I didn't reject or accept it when I first heard it. It's taken time to reach my position. I just tabled it for a while.

[freedomforall]

FF,

I am weak flesh and can not be trusted. Are the 15 flesh?

2 Nephi 4:34
O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. (Emphasis added)

I take into account that Nephi was the prophet of that day. And he did follow the counsel of his father, Lehi, for it was Lehi who taught Nephi the ways of God. So what's your point?
To trust in the arm of flesh is to say that we put our trust in people that are not righteous nor caring to keep the commandments:

Jer. 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Here is another example of whom not to trust, people who boast in their own strength:

Morm. 3:9
9 And now, because of this great thing which my people, the Nephites, had done, they began to boast in their own strength, and began to swear before the heavens that they would avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren who had been slain by their enemies.

Here is whom we do trust, this includes our Apostles and Prophets:

Mosiah 23:14
14 And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.


Sometimes, however, we shouldn't even trust our own thoughts. We can be mislead to enter into forbidden paths:

Prov. 3:5
5 ¶Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

So you see, the notion that we don't trust our church leaders is false.

[log]

If it is false, then Jesus taught a false doctrine. Or Joseph did. Or both.

JST, Mark 9:40–48.
Compare Mark 9:43–48
40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.

41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.

43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

[Jeremy]

And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

"...and the hundredth part I have not written"

[freedomforall]

Have you read Alma 40-42 yet?
Has anyone on the site caught the insinuations that believing and following the Apostles and other leaders of high calling are not to be listened to, because they're men?
Has anyone noticed that neither Jo nor Frank have answered my questions. Skirting around them, questions, and coming on stronger with teachings, inconsistent with scripture has become common place.
Having inspiration given us by the Holy Ghost is one thing, but receiving information by an angel is something else altogether. Alma reveals that which an angel revealed to him. Just whose account should we believe is most accurate? An angel or someone's conflicting info that they claim to be true.

I think Alma 40 and 41 can say many things. But just listing scripture does nothing. Actually, I laid them all out a few pages back. I like to write about what scripture means to me. Take the following.

Alma 40

9 Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead; and there is a space between the time of death and the resurrection. And now, concerning this space of time, what becometh of the souls of men is the thing which I have inquired diligently of the Lord to know; and this is the thing of which I do know.
10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.

It seems to me that we experience our birth so we know that time. Then we experience death so we know that time as well. Then in the resurrection we experience that time. But verse 10 implies that there are more times known to God. Just what times could that be?

And then Alma goes on in verse 12 through 14 to describe what happens to the righteous and what happens to the wicked. The righteous wait in paradise for the resurrection. But the wicked are cast to darkness. And just where is this darkness? What happens there?

This earth and the people on it are in darkness. We have a veil over us so so we can not see. The flesh is weak and the suffering is great on this earth. We burn with the desire to return to the Father but we do not know how. We are here for eternity from one dispensation to the next until the day comes and we become a new man and the old man dies. That old man that used to be us, that old man that will stay on the earth as the corrupt flesh. Then when we are righteous we take on a new body that is not corrupt.

You see the words are the same that you and I read. But what we take away in meaning may not be the same. I have just shown a few verses. Just as we disagree on these I am pretty sure we will disagree on the rest.

The rest of your comments are not worth responding to. I'm okay with that. But I will still counter doctrine not consistent with church teachings, because you're not the only one on this forum, and I don't want other posters and lurkers to get the wrong impression of what scriptures tell us. That which you get from scripture is your business. Non believers of MMP and in putting down the church, their thoughts and beliefs are just as worthwhile to them as yours are to you. There has to be opposition in all things, so here we are many opposing one another. Now it's up to the readers to choose what they want to believe. I do not feel like going back and finding all your comments demeaning the church and its leaders, but they are there if anyone wants to look.

[freedomforall]

If it is false, then Jesus taught a false doctrine. Or Joseph did. Or both.

JST, Mark 9:40–48.
Compare Mark 9:43–48
40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.

41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.

43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another. What do you think this means?

45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

Here is what can happen if we don't heed the words of our prophets and apostles:

D&C 1:14-16
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

So who wants to follow someone that puts down the church and its leaders? This path leads downward into an abyss.