MMP and scriptures

[log]

This is an analysis of the relevant scriptures on the topic of MMP.

Alma 40
1 Now my son, here is somewhat more I would say unto thee; for I perceive that thy mind is worried concerning the resurrection of the dead.

2 Behold, I say unto you, that there is no resurrection—or, I would say, in other words, that this mortal does not put on immortality, this corruption does not put on incorruption—until after the coming of Christ.

3 Behold, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. But behold, my son, the resurrection is not yet. Now, I unfold unto you a mystery; nevertheless, there are many mysteries which are kept, that no one knoweth them save God himself. But I show unto you one thing which I have inquired diligently of God that I might know—that is concerning the resurrection.

4 Behold, there is a time appointed that all shall come forth from the dead. Now when this time cometh no one knows; but God knoweth the time which is appointed.

5 Now, whether there shall be one time, or a second time, or a third time, that men shall come forth from the dead, it mattereth not; for God knoweth all these things; and it sufficeth me to know that this is the case—that there is a time appointed that all shall rise from the dead.

6 Now there must needs be a space betwixt the time of death and the time of the resurrection.

7 And now I would inquire what becometh of the souls of men from this time of death to the time appointed for the resurrection?

8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

9 Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead; and there is a space between the time of death and the resurrection. And now, concerning this space of time, what becometh of the souls of men is the thing which I have inquired diligently of the Lord to know; and this is the thing of which I do know.

10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.

11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

15 Now, there are some that have understood that this state of happiness and this state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection. Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken.

16 And behold, again it hath been spoken, that there is a first resurrection, a resurrection of all those who have been, or who are, or who shall be, down to the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

17 Now, we do not suppose that this first resurrection, which is spoken of in this manner, can be the resurrection of the souls and their consignation to happiness or misery. Ye cannot suppose that this is what it meaneth.

18 Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but it meaneth the reuniting of the soul with the body, of those from the days of Adam down to the resurrection of Christ.

19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.

20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.

21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

22 Yea, this bringeth about the restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets.

23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.

24 And now, my son, this is the restoration of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets—

25 And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.

26 But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.

Unfortunately, Alma 40 omits mention of those who are between the two extremes, so the logical possibility of MMP between death and resurrection for those is not precluded by it. However, D&C 76 appears to fill in that gap with its description of those who inherit the telestial and the terrestrial kingdoms, as well as their qualifying conditions, and therefore MMP is not a justifiable inference from Alma 40, and on its face appears to be incompatible with it, specifically because of verses 11-14.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

Resurrection is permanent.

D&C 88
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

Resurrection is universal.

Now, all of this doesn't mean MMP is false. It may be true. But there is no scriptural warrant for it; its advocates are reduced to arguing that MMP is not necessarily logically incompatible with the scriptures.

Even if it is true, should it be taught?

I would argue that, according to Moroni 7, it perhaps should not be.

Moroni 7
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

A couple of facts need to be kept in mind. Sinners prefer to remain in their sins. Idolaters prefer their idols. Carnal men, without being made aware of their fallen and worthless state, do not repent. People who are satisfied with what they have do not change. MMP seems to persuade men that if they do not repent and come unto Christ in this lifetime, then all may yet be well with them.

Indeed, it seems to resemble this.

2 Nephi 28
7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

The whole chapter may profitably be considered in the context of this discussion.

It appears to me that MMP fails the Moroni 7 smell test (but not completely in that it doesn't necessarily persuade to believe not in Christ, but it does give comfort to them who don't wish to obey).

Lastly, even if it is true, and it has been received by revelation, should it be taught?

Alma 12:9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

The portion of the word of God he grants unto the children of men is, it seems to me, the scriptures. Therefore, as MMP cannot be shown to arise from the scriptures, and it appears contrary to them, and it seems to counter the purpose for which the scriptures are given - which purpose is to persuade men to do good (repent and receive the Holy Ghost and the power of God thereby to do his works) - even if it is true, it had not ought to be taught.

Of course, this is just one person's thinking. Each may judge for themselves.

[Original_Intent]

Pretty much my thoughts.

MMP MAY exist, but it is not taught explicitly anywhere in the scriptures.

[Bryan LJ]

I'm probably going to get crap for this. If it is too offensive I will remove it:

LUCIFER: Well, Adam, you have a new world here.

ADAM: A new world?

LUCIFER: Yes, a new world, patterned after the old one where you used to live.

ADAM: I know nothing about any other world.

LUCIFER: Oh, I see, your eyes are not yet opened. You have forgotten everything. You must eat some of the fruit of that tree.

[log]

Yes, we all dwelled in a world before we came here, and when we go back, we will enter eternal worlds; possibly, even, worlds without end. Moreover, and this will indeed get me crap, what we have as the endowments cannot be traced back to Joseph Smith.

That's right. There is no verifying any part nor portion came from the Prophet. Therefore, I do not attach the same significance to the words of the rites as I do to, say, the Book of Mormon.

Nevertheless, not a single bit of that implies MMP. All that can be said is "it's not necessarily logically inconsistent with MMP."

[jo1952]

This is an analysis of the relevant scriptures on the topic of MMP.

With all due respect, once I received the revelation that MMP is a true principle, I began to "see" it in many, many, many verses in scripture....in all of our Standard Works. You have only chosen scriptures which support your current understanding. We all do that.

Meanwhile, I will address at least the following:

5 Now, whether there shall be one time, or a second time, or a third time, that men shall come forth from the dead, it mattereth not; for God knoweth all these things; and it sufficeth me to know that this is the case—that there is a time appointed that all shall rise from the dead.

I offer that "shall come forth from the dead" is NOT the same as "there is a time appointed that all shall RISE from the dead". The "rising" from the dead speaks of resurrection. Our spirit can experience being in more than one body of flesh which dies ("whether there shall be one time, or a second time, or a third time"); but only one of those bodies will resurrect (rise from the dead). When this happens, the spirit goes no more out and obtains its most recent body; that body becoming immortal and incorruptible. Resurrection is what pulls you out of bondage to physical death; which is when we cannot die anymore. Now, we should keep in mind that scriptures have many levels of understanding. Not only can they be applied to the individual; but also to the collective. Also, the levels of understanding correspond with the level of our spirit's experiencing the "knowing" of the lessons being taught; which levels also ascend in difference which are likened to the various levels of the heavens. As we progress, we see things from the new perspective of where we are. Every single time we read scripture which we have read hundreds of times before, we "see" differently.

I will also comment on the second coming of Christ....individual spirits (while in the state of being as a "soul") can experience the second coming of Christ the moment they are ready. They don't need to wait for the physical earth's experiencing of the second coming of Christ. The rebirth of our spirit OF the Spirit takes place when the spirit is ready. When we are born of the Spirit we are then able to see God and see His kingdom. There are many people awakening right now who are experiencing this. I believe this has been taking place ever since Christ's Resurrection...and it is all a part of the "first resurrection".

When I first received this revelation, I resisted it. I was not expecting it; I had not been seeking for information concerning it. Since that time, though, I have continued to receive an expansion of its significance. I still don't understand it completely; but I do understand it more clearly as I continue to receive precept upon precept and line upon line.

[log]

This is an analysis of the relevant scriptures on the topic of MMP.

With all due respect, once I received the revelation that MMP is a true principle, I began to "see" it in many, many, many verses in scripture....in all of our Standard Works. You have only chosen scriptures which support your current understanding. We all do that.

As a matter of fact, the post continued on for quite a ways. I know, sometimes my posts are TL;DR.

And, I might also add, nothing you are bringing forth here contradicts what I said: "Now, all of this doesn't mean MMP is false. It may be true. But there is no scriptural warrant for it; its advocates are reduced to arguing that MMP is not necessarily logically incompatible with the scriptures."

By "scriptural warrant" I mean there is no scripture which necessitates the conclusion of MMP.

[jo1952]

This is an analysis of the relevant scriptures on the topic of MMP.

With all due respect, once I received the revelation that MMP is a true principle, I began to "see" it in many, many, many verses in scripture....in all of our Standard Works. You have only chosen scriptures which support your current understanding. We all do that.

As a matter of fact, the post continued on for quite a ways. I know, sometimes my posts are TL;DR.

And, I might also add, nothing you are bringing forth here contradicts what I said: "Now, all of this doesn't mean MMP is false. It may be true. But there is no scriptural warrant for it; its advocates are reduced to arguing that MMP is not necessarily logically incompatible with the scriptures."

By "scriptural warrant" I mean there is no scripture which necessitates the conclusion of MMP.

Log,

I recognized that you had said this. I was introducing some clarification for the very reason that I have been instructed by the Holy Spirit that MMP is a true principle (though not in the generally considered description). No biggy.

[Jake]

With all due respect, once I received the revelation that MMP is a true principle, I began to "see" it in many, many, many verses in scripture....in all of our Standard Works. You have only chosen scriptures which support your current understanding. We all do that.

When I first received this revelation, I resisted it. I was not expecting it; I had not been seeking for information concerning it. Since that time, though, I have continued to receive an expansion of its significance. I still don't understand it completely; but I do understand it more clearly as I continue to receive precept upon precept and line upon line.

+1 Jo, your experience mirrors mine.

I was given a similar revelation after pondering on this:

And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

A few things that come to mind on this verse:

Foreordained for work on this earth as a result of exceeding faith and good works prior to coming here. I was always taught that I lived in the presence of God before coming to this earth. If so, it would not be possible for me to exercise faith in Him if I was in His presence because I would have sure knowledge.

Also, those who were foreordained on this earth were left to choose between good and evil. I thought we couldn't do that before we came here, and that was the point of coming here was to learn right from wrong.

It also says that those who were foreordained chose good over evil. Again, that would not be possible in an environment in God's presence. And the only way to choose good is to have evil as an opposite choice. That sounds an awful lot like what we do here on this earth, the Telestial world.

The conclusion I came to after MUCH pondering about this was that MMPs are part of the plan of happiness. I asked the Lord, and He gave me revelation to know that this is a true principle. After thinking about it, I also decided that such a plan was consistent with the nature of a loving parent.

I don't agree with the OP's conclusion that this idea shouldn't be taught. If we do not choose good and repent on this earth, we will be required to pay the penalty for such a choice to the uttermost farthing (or senine, depending on which book you read). I, for one, would like to avoid such a fate, and thank God every day for the forgiveness He has offered.

[log]

Foreordained for work on this earth as a result of exceeding faith and good works prior to coming here. I was always taught that I lived in the presence of God before coming to this earth. If so, it would not be possible for me to exercise faith in Him if I was in His presence because I would have sure knowledge.

Except the scripture you cite gives a different explanation.

And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

Already knowing the score, God called the winners before the game.

And, I don't know how else to say this, if a teaching would justify some, in their minds, in postponing their repentance, perhaps even until it is everlastingly too late, then that teaching ought not go forth. I'm at a loss as to how this is not agreed to. There is a reason that, even if it were true, MMP is not taught in the scriptures, and that's it.

[jo1952]

With all due respect, once I received the revelation that MMP is a true principle, I began to "see" it in many, many, many verses in scripture....in all of our Standard Works. You have only chosen scriptures which support your current understanding. We all do that.

When I first received this revelation, I resisted it. I was not expecting it; I had not been seeking for information concerning it. Since that time, though, I have continued to receive an expansion of its significance. I still don't understand it completely; but I do understand it more clearly as I continue to receive precept upon precept and line upon line.

+1 Jo, your experience mirrors mine.

I was given a similar revelation after pondering on this:

And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

A few things that come to mind on this verse:

Foreordained for work on this earth as a result of exceeding faith and good works prior to coming here. I was always taught that I lived in the presence of God before coming to this earth. If so, it would not be possible for me to exercise faith in Him if I was in His presence because I would have sure knowledge.

Also, those who were foreordained on this earth were left to choose between good and evil. I thought we couldn't do that before we came here, and that was the point of coming here was to learn right from wrong.

It also says that those who were foreordained chose good over evil. Again, that would not be possible in an environment in God's presence. And the only way to choose good is to have evil as an opposite choice. That sounds an awful lot like what we do here on this earth, the Telestial world.

The conclusion I came to after MUCH pondering about this was that MMPs are part of the plan of happiness. I asked the Lord, and He gave me revelation to know that this is a true principle. After thinking about it, I also decided that such a plan was consistent with the nature of a loving parent.

I don't agree with the OP's conclusion that this idea shouldn't be taught. If we do not choose good and repent on this earth, we will be required to pay the penalty for such a choice to the uttermost farthing (or senine, depending on which book you read). I, for one, would like to avoid such a fate, and thank God every day for the forgiveness He has offered.

Thank you, VfD.

Like you, I am very concerned in that we cannot be saved in ignorance. We need to "know" as much as possible; continually seeking and experiencing knowledge before we can be saved.

Also, you have provided yet another specific passage which confirms MMP. That is one that had not yet jumped out at me. You expressed yourself so beautifully....something I am not very capable of.

[Jake]

Foreordained for work on this earth as a result of exceeding faith and good works prior to coming here. I was always taught that I lived in the presence of God before coming to this earth. If so, it would not be possible for me to exercise faith in Him if I was in His presence because I would have sure knowledge.

Except the scripture you cite gives a different explanation.

And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

Already knowing the score, God called the winners before the game.

And, I don't know how else to say this, if a teaching would justify some, in their minds, in postponing their repentance, perhaps even until it is everlastingly too late, then that teaching ought not go forth. I'm at a loss as to how this is not agreed to. There is a reason that, even if it were true, MMP is not taught in the scriptures, and that's it.

I know this isn't the private forum, but have you read Denver Snuffer's take on these verses? I would be interested in your opinion about his explanation.

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2010/06/alma-133.html
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2010/ ... -have.html
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2010/ ... 3-5-6.html

[log]

I'm sure you'll note that what I wrote is not addressed in Snuffer's posts. I find that curious, in and of itself.

[jo1952]

Foreordained for work on this earth as a result of exceeding faith and good works prior to coming here. I was always taught that I lived in the presence of God before coming to this earth. If so, it would not be possible for me to exercise faith in Him if I was in His presence because I would have sure knowledge.

Except the scripture you cite gives a different explanation.

And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

Already knowing the score, God called the winners before the game.

And, I don't know how else to say this, if a teaching would justify some, in their minds, in postponing their repentance, perhaps even until it is everlastingly too late, then that teaching ought not go forth. I'm at a loss as to how this is not agreed to. There is a reason that, even if it were true, MMP is not taught in the scriptures, and that's it.

There ARE things taught in the scriptures which many do not see.

1Corinthians 2:8-16

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

[log]

There ARE things taught in the scriptures which many do not see.

I would have to agree. But that doesn't touch my points.

At this point, I begin to wonder if I haven't been perfectly clear.

[log]

I'm sure you'll note that what I wrote is not addressed in Snuffer's posts. I find that curious, in and of itself.

And I will also say that postulating additional probations before the foundation of the world puts one in mind of "epicycles."

Now, as I said, it's possible that such additional things are true. But nothing in scripture implies that they are true. All that can be said is "they are not necessarily logically incompatible with the scriptures."

[jo1952]

There ARE things taught in the scriptures which many do not see.

I would have to agree. But that doesn't touch my points.

At this point, I begin to wonder if I haven't been perfectly clear.

It is very possible that we are talking past each other.

[Simon]

It is interesting to ponder about the question why God has not revealed such a doctrine unmistakebly within our scriptures. Would we not understand that doctrine? Would it keep us from focusing on this life? Would is scare us too much? Is it only for those who are prepared for understanding it? Whats the difference between mmps and reincarnation, is there one? If not, why would God reveal so much about it to other religions, but not in his church? Or is reincarnation a counterfeit doctrine of MMPs? Or is it all together false doctrine? If so, why did so many chuchleaders talk about probations e.t.c. Why do we not learn anymore about it today within the church?

[BrentL]

This is one of those topics I have found it's better to let The Lord teach

[Jeremy]

This is one of those topics I have found it's better to let The Lord teach

Pretty good chance the qualifier would be present.

...and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach.

[Hannant]

Could perhaps someone please clarify what MMP is or stands for?

Thanks

[clarkkent14]

This is one of those topics I have found it's better to let The Lord teach

Agreed. Only through revelation can we understand who we are and why we are here. Important business nonetheless. The scriptures will jump off the page. Until then, you'll just debate it endlessly.

[clarkkent14]

Could perhaps someone please clarify what MMP is or stands for?

Thanks

Multiple Mortal Probations. Living more than one life in mortality. The idea that we've lived other lives on this earth or on other creations by God.

[lemuel]

For me, the only reason to believe in MMP is the belief that God, who is willing to do anything to save us, would let us have another turn on the merry-go-round if we would get a better outcome the next time. However, there's no reason to believe we would be a better person next time. The veil comes back down and we forget everything we learned in the last mortal life. How many times would I have to go around until I got it right? And if I am finally good on the thousandth probation, does that really mean that my character has improved? Should I have to do it right, say, a few times in a row to gain salvation?

I don't believe in MMP, but the idea of having to eternally go around and around in mortal life after mortal life is the very definition of hell. I hope the Lord has enough mercy on me to let me get some rest in the tk...

[Jeremy]

I usually want to reply to a post if I have a scripture to add to the conversation. In this case I dont...and thats not to say that there isnt scriptures to add. But for this time I will just share my opinion...and not mingle it with scripture.

I believe that in order for movement to occur there must be friction. And what is friction if its not opposition...and what is movement if its not progression.

So when I die will I be a god with a big "g" or will there yet be more progression to take place? I believe much more progression will take place. That progression will require movement...and movement requires friction...or opposition. Now what kind of opposition do I expect to experience in the presents of God while residing in the Celestial Kingdom? Hmmmmm...I kind of expect almost zero...I just want to sit on that nice white couch with my awesome white robe and super cool cap.......but thats not going to happen now is it? Nope. Maybe for all of you, but for me...I will have about an eternal rounds worth of progression to do. There must be some amount of opposition...what do the scriptures say about opposition and all things? (nope - do not copy/paste scripture this time)

What better way to learn how to love and have charity than to live with these people over and over again. They provide a great source of opposition dont they?

[now when your annoyed with me, just be grateful that I am here with you AGAIN providing the necessary opposition for you to feel friction so that you can experience progression - of course, I am only here to help ;) ]

[freedomforall]

For me, the only reason to believe in MMP is the belief that God, who is willing to do anything to save us, would let us have another turn on the merry-go-round if we would get a better outcome the next time. However, there's no reason to believe we would be a better person next time. The veil comes back down and we forget everything we learned in the last mortal life. How many times would I have to go around until I got it right? And if I am finally good on the thousandth probation, does that really mean that my character has improved? Should I have to do it right, say, a few times in a row to gain salvation?

I don't believe in MMP, but the idea of having to eternally go around and around in mortal life after mortal life is the very definition of hell. I hope the Lord has enough mercy on me to let me get some rest in the tk...

My next life will have to be on another planet, because this one is about to end. And then it will suck because Christ will be on this one for a thousand years, and I'll be on a different one trying to get back to him all over again. Or maybe He'll loan me out to some other God for how ever many other lives I have to experience, and deal with another Satan. I guess I could wait until our Satan is loosed again though. That means I'll be fighting him all over again instead of living in peace with Christ. One would think one time around with Satan would be enough. This must be how God's mercy works...do it over and over again. And if I'm lucky enough to go home after this one life, I have to feel bad for all those people who lost out and have to face Satan's temptations once again. What a mess. Is this the way it has to be? Shucks!