LDS Freedom Forum

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

D&C 76:98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

Ezekiel 14:1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.

2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?

4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

6 ¶Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:

8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

12 ¶The word of the Lord came again to me, saying,

13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

15 ¶If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

17 ¶Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:

18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

19 ¶Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Doctrine and Covenants 100:17
17 And all that call upon the name of the Lord, and keep his commandments, shall be saved. Even so. Amen.

D&C 29:1 Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins;

2 Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer.

Do not make the church an idol, and do not judge God by that idol. Realize the church is an organization staffed by frail men trying hard, but with very difficult circumstances facing them in this fallen world. Be charitable. To the extent that you choose the church to inform your understanding, you are setting it up as an idol. That approach does more harm than good. No institution can display what it was never intended to be.-Denver Snuffer

inquiring and receiving answers directly from the Lord

log wrote: If, therefore, trusting in man, simpliciter, gets a man cursed of the Lord, then would we do well if we slavishly follow even a true prophet, such as Joseph Smith, substituting his ideas or notions for inquiring and receiving answers directly from the Lord?

Cookies wrote: This is the hard part for me. I don't know how to get answers from the Lord. It is likely that I already am, just not recognizing them as such....

laronius wrote: Would you mind sharing with us the specific signs you see that leads you to the opinion that the general membership of the Church don't believe in following the Spirit?

3 Nephi 14:1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

JST, Matthew 5:21
21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven.

log wrote:

laronius wrote: Would you mind sharing with us the specific signs you see that leads you to the opinion that the general membership of the Church don't believe in following the Spirit?

I will give you one specific sign to discern between those who follow the Spirit, and those who are hypocrites.

3 Nephi 14:1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

JST, Matthew 5:21
21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven.

When, therefore, I see a man judging the motivations of others, I know from whence he comes.

log wrote: Here is the relevant part of Ezekiel 14. Apparently, those who depend upon prophets are idolaters.

Ezekiel 14:1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.

2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?

4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

6 ¶Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:

8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

12 ¶The word of the Lord came again to me, saying,

13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

15 ¶If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

17 ¶Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:

18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

19 ¶Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

stillwater wrote:
The takeaway is the same, that we each must approach the Lord for ourselves, but I think it's work referencing the correct passage.

laronius wrote:
Yes, falsely judging others is wrong.

But you didn't answer my question. What specific sign do you see in the Church where the members have chosen not to follow the Spirit?

Jeremiah 5:26
26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.

laronius wrote: But you didn't answer my question. What specific sign do you see in the Church where the members have chosen not to follow the Spirit?

log wrote:

JST, Matthew 5:21
21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven.

When, therefore, I see a man judging the motivations of others, I know from whence he comes.

hyloglyph wrote:

log wrote:

JST, Matthew 5:21
21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven.

When, therefore, I see a man judging the motivations of others, I know from whence he comes.

Really log? Can you really know?

This is the exact opposite of what you were saying in the priestcraft thread. I could even see your logic there, but now I read you posting things like this?

Judging is something you do internally, so how can you truly know if someone is judging without revelation?

lol check the priestcraft thread

laronius wrote:But you didn't answer my question. What specific sign do you see in the Church where the members have chosen not to follow the Spirit?

log wrote:
When a man says he has judged, then I can know he has judged, unless he is a liar, in which case he's got other problems, I'd say.

Likewise, if a man seeks a sign, you may know he is an adulterer.

Videre faciem Dei wrote: I hear lip service paid to the idea that we should follow the spirit, by try doing it in your lessons and see what happens.

hyloglyph wrote:

log wrote:
When a man says he has judged, then I can know he has judged, unless he is a liar, in which case he's got other problems, I'd say.

Likewise, if a man seeks a sign, you may know he is an adulterer.

So what about you saying you know from "whence someone comes"?

I guess that doesn't count as judging?

Also, could you elaborate more on the sign seeker = adulterer thing?

Not arguing about this, just interested in what you'll say.

TPJS Section Five 1842-43, p.278

When I was preaching in Philadelphia, a Quaker called out for a sign. I told him to be still. After the sermon, he again asked for a sign. I told the congregation the man was an adulterer; that a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and that the Lord had said to me in a revelation, that any man who wanted a sign was an adulterous person. "It is true," cried one, "for I caught him in the very act," which the man afterwards confessed when he was baptized. (Feb. 9, 1843.) DHC 5:268.

log wrote:If a man says he has judged, then only two logical possibilities exist. Either he has judged, or he is lying about having judged. Either way, I know from whence he comes; God cannot lie, and has commanded us not to judge. Such things, therefore, do not come from God.

log wrote:TPJS Section Five 1842-43, p.278

When I was preaching in Philadelphia, a Quaker called out for a sign. I told him to be still. After the sermon, he again asked for a sign. I told the congregation the man was an adulterer; that a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and that the Lord had said to me in a revelation, that any man who wanted a sign was an adulterous person. "It is true," cried one, "for I caught him in the very act," which the man afterwards confessed when he was baptized. (Feb. 9, 1843.) DHC 5:268.

hyloglyph wrote:

log wrote:If a man says he has judged, then only two logical possibilities exist. Either he has judged, or he is lying about having judged. Either way, I know from whence he comes; God cannot lie, and has commanded us not to judge. Such things, therefore, do not come from God.

So wait,you aren't judging there by inferring that he comes from somewhere other than God? How can you know without revelation?

Likewise could it not be said that if a man says he sells heavenly things for money, then you can know from whence he comes because God has forbidden priestcraft just as he has forbidden judging?

laronius wrote:The Joseph Smith Translation of Matthew 7:1 reads, "Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgments."

You may have quoted the Lord, but you implied a false interpretation.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

And concerning your implied accusation that I am an adulterer, well sorry to tell you, but I'm not.

So either 1. The Lord was wrong when he said that or 2. You have once again misinterpreted what he meant.

Hmmm... I think I will choose #2.

2 Nephi 9:40
40 O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.

log wrote:

hyloglyph wrote:

log wrote:If a man says he has judged, then only two logical possibilities exist. Either he has judged, or he is lying about having judged. Either way, I know from whence he comes; God cannot lie, and has commanded us not to judge. Such things, therefore, do not come from God.

So wait,you aren't judging there by inferring that he comes from somewhere other than God? How can you know without revelation?

You're engaged in equivocation on the word "judge," good sir. I don't bother to condemn, nor to infer his motives. Neither am I engaged in judging, in the relevant sense, when I say, "given the Peano axioms, 1 + 1 = 2". Such statements require no revelation; they pass as true or false strictly upon the definitions of the symbols involved in the statements.

Likewise could it not be said that if a man says he sells heavenly things for money, then you can know from whence he comes because God has forbidden priestcraft just as he has forbidden judging?

Even were a man to say he sells heavenly things for money, it doesn't exclude the possibility that he also seeks for the welfare of Zion.