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log wrote:After all, if there is a man between us and the Lord, does it matter if his name is Joseph Smith or Thomas Monson or Denver Snuffer or log or Amonhi or Rock Waterman or "Spencer" or John Pontius or ANYONE?
:)) (Just struck me as funny on a thread about the evils of idolatry)Amonhi wrote::ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymhug:log wrote:...(the Entire post)...:ymparty:
You a new hero of mine for this post!!!
Joseph's desire was to bring the people into the presence of God, as Moses sought to also, and as the Lord offered at Nauvoo. Joseph failed to produce that result, just as Moses did.Simon wrote:It is my impression that Jospeh's greatest desire always has been to reveal all the kowledge he had, but he often talked about how the members of the church were just not prepared to receive such things.
True, this was Josephs greatest mission, and he posessed all knowledge to get there, but as with Moses, the members were not ready for it.. So.. are we ?log wrote:Joseph's desire was to bring the people into the presence of God, as Moses sought to also, and as the Lord offered at Nauvoo. Joseph failed to produce that result, just as Moses did.Simon wrote:It is my impression that Jospeh's greatest desire always has been to reveal all the kowledge he had, but he often talked about how the members of the church were just not prepared to receive such things.
It is always easier to be a follower, a groupie, a fan, of the prophets than to obey their teachings from the heart and become a prophet oneself, because you can see the man and hear his voice; it requires no faith to perceive him. It takes faith to pour out one's soul in mighty prayer and supplication unto salvation to a God one cannot see, and few there be that do it.
It is always easier to enforce orthodoxy as opposed to obeying it.
Alma 13:20Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Log, what is your whole point? Follow the prophet? Don't follow the prophet? Study the words of Christ as found in the scriptures, modern revelations, Conference Reports, patriarchal blessings?Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.
This.Simon wrote:We can learn a great lesson from Nephi. Lehi, his father, was called to be the leader and prophet of the family. Nevertheless, Nephi desired to receive his own understanding about Lehis visions and revelations. The Lord did not just answer, but even revealed Nephi great insights.
When the arrow broke, even Lehi the prophet began to murmur. Even though Nephi was at that time closer to the Lord, he still went to Lehi and told him that he is to ask the Lord for further directions.
We can learn many things from that. Nephi had the right to know the excact same things as his father, and even in times where Lehi was weak Nephi respected Lehi as the prophet and leader of the family. But Nephi was only able to stand because he had his own visions and revelations. Laman and Lemuel fell because they just followed along.
We have to be as Nephi. The scriptures tell us excactly how to move along.
My whole point is that idolatry leads to dependence upon prophets. I even made it the title of the thread.Alighieri wrote:
Log, what is your whole point?
Great talk from a servant of the Lord on the two lines of communication. 2nd time I have linked a talk from Elder Oaks today.
We do need both channels. The personal channel and the priesthood channel.Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.
That is correct.Alighieri wrote:Log, I am not going to convince you.
If you depend upon prophets, you have a darkened mind, says Joseph Smith, and therefore do not have the Spirit, says Christ, and idolatry leads some to depend upon prophets, says Ezekiel.There are two lines of communication. One is through the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators that are authorized to head the Church by the direction of the Lord Jesus Christ, the other line is the one of personal revelation.
Those quotes describe you quite fittingly. By your logic you shouldn't be judging me either. Great red herring by the way.log wrote:That is correct.Alighieri wrote:Log, I am not going to convince you.
If you depend upon prophets, you have a darkened mind, says Joseph Smith, and therefore do not have the Spirit, says Christ, and idolatry leads you to depend upon prophets, says Ezekiel.There are two lines of communication. One is through the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators that are authorized to head the Church by the direction of the Lord Jesus Christ, the other line is the one of personal revelation.
Before you try to call others to repentance, or try to correct their understanding, you really need to be sure you are yourself not out of the way, and that you have the truth and not mere opinion or belief.
None but fools will trifle with the souls of men, says Joseph.
That is why I don't judge you. When you publicly make false accusations, I will, however, point that out, for such are an offense to truth and virtue.Alighieri wrote:
Those quotes describe you quite fittingly. By your logic you shouldn't be judging me either. Great red herring by the way.
The Lord does not deal in false accusations.I am judging righteous judgment. That is what Christ asked. I leave you to yourself to kick against the pricks.
We can only be ready if we, as individuals, seek guidance from the Holy Ghost first. As a collective, the Church can only be led as far as the Brethren lead us through what they teach us. The Holy Ghost, OTOH, shall teach us (as individuals) ALL things. Thus, we can be led by the Holy Ghost as fast as we are able and ready to receive more truth. Christ didn't teach us everything He knew; in following Christ, we can only be led as far as He led us which is sufficient for us to get out of bondage to physical death....it is sufficient to get us to the Celestial kingdom (Christ's kingdom)....but not sufficient to get past Christ and into the higher order of kingdoms in our ascension to Father's kingdom (though we do finally learn about those higher order of kingdoms AFTER we make it to the Celestial kingdom; we can only get to Father through Christ.).Simon wrote:True, this was Josephs greatest mission, and he posessed all knowledge to get there, but as with Moses, the members were not ready for it.. So.. are we ?log wrote:Joseph's desire was to bring the people into the presence of God, as Moses sought to also, and as the Lord offered at Nauvoo. Joseph failed to produce that result, just as Moses did.Simon wrote:It is my impression that Jospeh's greatest desire always has been to reveal all the kowledge he had, but he often talked about how the members of the church were just not prepared to receive such things.
It is always easier to be a follower, a groupie, a fan, of the prophets than to obey their teachings from the heart and become a prophet oneself, because you can see the man and hear his voice; it requires no faith to perceive him. It takes faith to pour out one's soul in mighty prayer and supplication unto salvation to a God one cannot see, and few there be that do it.
It is always easier to enforce orthodoxy as opposed to obeying it.
Have you heard that one explaination used by missionaries for why we need a prophet? :-s It goes something like this...Thomas wrote:Isn't that building a dam between you and God? How does a person become damned? Why not follow God?davedan wrote:Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the spokesman for God on the Earth. That doesn't mean LDS Prophets are infallible. However, we know we can receive the will of God through the LDS Prophet and we can independently pray and recieve a confirming witness that what the Prophets have said is true.
Keep your eye on the brethern.
#-oImagine that there is a great big wall between you and God. It's too big to go around and too high to climb over. Because of this wall, we can't talk to God. Well the prophet is on that wall and can talk to God and tell us what God says, what God wants us to do and anything else God wants us to know. So by following the prophet, we are following God. By doing what the prophet says to do, we are doing what God says to do. God gives us prophets so we can know God's will for us.
I used to believe that too. During my studies, my wife and I have read every book in the Gospel link library and many more. In the process of studying, we have seen time and again that this noble ideal is neither true nor reasonable. To our amazement, we found instance after instance of Church leaders contradicting each other, Presidents of the church included. Not on things that change over time, like "right now" we need to focus on having the Holy Ghost vs. reading scriptures. But on doctrines that you could be excommunicated for not believing.InfoWarrior82 wrote:Amonhi wrote:I agree, but would take this much further... You need to follow your own revelation even when it contradicts the prophet, even when you know he is a prophet. You need to be a prophet too.InfoWarrior82 wrote:If one follows the prophet without confirmation from the Spirit that he is indeed a prophet of God, that person will eventually fall away from the Lord because he built his house upon the sand.
If one follows the prophet with confirmation from the Spirit that he is indeed a prophet of God, that person will have a better chance at enduring to the end in the restored gospel which provides the iron rod. His house is built upon the rock.
What happens when one prophet tries to override the revelation of another and succeeds? See 1 Kings 13
No revelation given to anyone will contradict what the prophet has already told the world. If it does, rest assured that it didn't come from God.
Bruce R. McConkie, one of the most studied apostles of our modern day said this about President Brigham Young?"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me - namely that Adam is our Father and God…Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him. He brought one of his wives with him. Who is he? He is Michael…He was the first man on the earth, and its framer and maker. He with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said: 'I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle, or a dwelling place as mine has' and where is the mystery?" (Brigham Young, Deseret News, June 18, 1873)
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family…I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone.... Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50-51) -
So Bruce R. McConkie, (well studied), knew that the only way around the conflict between President Young's teachings as a prophet and the disagreement between his own views which matched up with current church doctrine is to say that Sometimes God permits damning heresies to be taught in the church by the prophet so that the wheat can be sifted from the chaff. And that those who believe the false things that the prophet says will be damned and those who believe the true things will be saved. Hmmm...This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: "And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!: (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.
Wouldn't it be cool if the missionary lesson went like this:Amonhi wrote:
Have you heard that one explaination used by missionaries for why we need a prophet? :-s It goes something like this...
#-oImagine that there is a great big wall between you and God. It's too big to go around and too high to climb over. Because of this wall, we can't talk to God. Well the prophet is on that wall and can talk to God and tell us what God says, what God wants us to do and anything else God wants us to know. So by following the prophet, we are following God. By doing what the prophet says to do, we are doing what God says to do. God gives us prophets so we can know God's will for us.
Do you want to know why that wall is there between us and God? Well, in this book I just gave you, there's this guy called the Brother of Jared, and he got through the wall because his faith tore it down...
I am torn by this statement as it is both correct and not correct at the same time or rather depending on the circumstance and hte sphere of of truth you are in. That is a correct truth from the view point of a Servant. It is tested by those who are Son's and want to know if that is really who God is. And the Friends of God don't really care if God lies or not or whether he contradicts himself because they will do what is right regardless of what God does or tells them to do.log wrote:I would put it differently.
No revelation, from God, given to anyone will contradict that which has been before spoken, and / or written, by the spirit of prophecy. God cannot lie, and therefore cannot contradict himself.
So God may say that polygamy is wrong at one time and then contradict himself and command as a law at another time.Happiness the Design of Existence
Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.
God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said, "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted--by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon: first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him, and with it every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation.
A parent may whip a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have eaten it with a better appetite; there would have been no stripes; all the pleasure of the apple would have been secured, all the misery of stealing lost.
Every Gift from God Is Just
This principle will justly apply to all of God's dealings with His children. Everything that God gives us is lawful and right; and it is proper that we should enjoy His gifts and blessings whenever and wherever He is disposed to bestow; but is we should seize upon those same blessings and enjoyments without law, without revelation, without commandment, those blessings and enjoyments would prove cursings and vexations in the end, and we should have to lie down in sorrow and wailings of everlasting regret. But in obedience there is joy and peace unspotted, unalloyed; and as God has designed our happiness--and the happiness of all His creatures, he never has--He never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to His people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which He has designed, and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law and ordinances. Blessings offered, but rejected, are no longer blessings, but become like the talent hid in the earth by the wicked and slothful servant; the proffered good returns to the giver; the blessing is bestowed on those who will receive and occupy; for unto him that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundantly, but unto him that hath not or will not receive, shall be taken away that which he hath, or might have had. - Section Five 1842-43, p.255-
(**Side note: Joseph Smith in the quote above was talking about poligamy when he referenced Solomon saying that God sanctioned it by giving to Solomon "every desire of his heart". But the BOM quote above says that the Lord said that Solomon having multiple wives "was abominable before me". Which is true? Do you believe the prophet Joseph or the BOM?)Jacob 1:15
And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
Jacob 2:24
Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
Although we have been born again, received the change of heart and have desires to do good, we may not know how to do good for ourselves. We may not have the moral compass set straight. We also might desire to do good and think that good is whatever our leaders tell us. They are blinded by men and so do what they think is good but their good intentions are wasted on the bad advice of others. They have not gained oil enough to light their own way in the darkness and so rely on others to guide them. Even God. Who guides God? And who will guide us when we have become Gods?75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. - D&C 76:75-79
"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." - (Brigham Young, presented in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853, found in Journal of Discourses, 1:312)
It is truly hard to judge and say that anyone doing any of these 3 options is wrong largely because they are acting on information we may not have or understand. Maybe there are other options also...26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.
HAHAHA!!! Yes, that's what I'm talk'n about!lemuel wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if the missionary lesson went like this:Amonhi wrote:
Have you heard that one explaination used by missionaries for why we need a prophet? :-s It goes something like this...
#-oImagine that there is a great big wall between you and God. It's too big to go around and too high to climb over. Because of this wall, we can't talk to God. Well the prophet is on that wall and can talk to God and tell us what God says, what God wants us to do and anything else God wants us to know. So by following the prophet, we are following God. By doing what the prophet says to do, we are doing what God says to do. God gives us prophets so we can know God's will for us.
Do you want to know why that wall is there between us and God? Well, in this book I just gave you, there's this guy called the Brother of Jared, and he got through the wall because his faith tore it down...
IE, I'm right.Amonhi wrote:I am torn by this statement as it is both correct and not correct at the same time or rather depending on the circumstance and hte sphere of of truth you are in. That is a correct truth from the view point of a Servant. It is tested by those who are Son's and want to know if that is really who God is. And the Friends of God don't really care if God lies or not or whether he contradicts himself because they will do what is right regardless of what God does or tells them to do.log wrote:I would put it differently.
No revelation, from God, given to anyone will contradict that which has been before spoken, and / or written, by the spirit of prophecy. God cannot lie, and therefore cannot contradict himself.
Sure God is bound to eternal morals ie. not to lie.
Abram simply told the Egyptians that Sarai was his sister. He did not deny the truth, so far as I can recall.But, he commanded Abraham to deceive the king by denying his true relationship with his wife in order to save Abraham's life.
Did you take note of the JST to Ezekiel 14?God is also willing to take credit for a prophet being deceived if that prophet is leading people to himself and not pointing to God. (See Ezekiel 14)
You are right, he only deceived the king by presenting a partial picture of the truth, kind of like a half truth. He said she is my... sister, when the more accurate/binding/relevant relationship was that of a wife. And Abraham was right to be gentreated with wealth for giving his wife to Pharaoh:log wrote:Abram simply told the Egyptians that Sarai was his sister. He did not deny the truth, so far as I can recall.But, he commanded Abraham to deceive the king by denying his true relationship with his wife in order to save Abraham's life.
And the king had no right to feel lied to:15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh’s house.
16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?OM
19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
Did you take note of the JST to Ezekiel 14?[/quote]God is also willing to take credit for a prophet being deceived if that prophet is leading people to himself and not pointing to God. (See Ezekiel 14)
Well, hey. God has vouched for Joseph to me, so I'm cool with accepting Joseph's editing of the Bible (except where it conflicts with the Book of Mormon) until God says otherwise to me. People God has vouched for to me trump people God has not vouched for to me, to me.Amonhi wrote: Yes I did. I find Joseph wrong in his interpretation of these verses. He did not translate the bible in the same way he did the BOM. he translated, the edited, then re translated, and re-edited. It was never a finished work. Why should we think it was good enough when he did not? His interpretation does not fit well with the entire chapter.