LDS Freedom Forum

hyloglyph wrote: That makes more sense. I understand that there is equivocation on the word judge-- that's my whole point. You appeared to be the one equivocating in the priestcraft thread. But there is apparently an exception that makes the selling of Godly things alright if one is seeking the welfare of Zion. That is what makes the difference.

It's more that if they don't meet all the elements of the definition of priestcraft, in particular "seek[ing] not for the welfare of Zion", then they aren't committing it.

Is there no similar exception for judging? Apparently judging righteously is alright aka judging while seeking the welfare of zion?

I have not found scripture to support this, JST Matthew 7:1 notwithstanding, unless a man is specifically directed of God to judge another man.

John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

We are free to evaluate ideas and philosophies to see if they persuade men to come unto Christ or to deny him (Moroni 7); that is righteous judgement, as the scriptures use the phrase. And we are explicitly told that the same standards we apply to others shall be applied against us by God.

I suppose anything would be alright if it is done with the welfare of Zion in mind? Or am I off on this?

The only thing that makes a thing right is if it is according to the commandments of God.

Cookies wrote:

Do not make the church an idol, and do not judge God by that idol. Realize the church is an organization staffed by frail men trying hard, but with very difficult circumstances facing them in this fallen world. Be charitable. To the extent that you choose the church to inform your understanding, you are setting it up as an idol. That approach does more harm than good. No institution can display what it was never intended to be.-Denver Snuffer

inquiring and receiving answers directly from the Lord

This is the hard part for me. I don't know how to get answers from the Lord. It is likely that I already am, just not recognizing them as such....

The best place to receive answers is within the scriptures... It's a great place to start with. It's a geat place to learn how to listen to the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.. And often times when you will ask a question, a certain scripture will enter your mind. The great thing about the scripture is you can always trust in them... And after a while you know how the voice of th spirit feels, and it will make it much easier to dicern answers that enter directly into your heart

Shared this on another topic aswell, but it fits the sitation well

- The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...”

Brigham Young
Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 150

“What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blink self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 3, p. 45

“How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves.”

We are to follow truth, and follow it deeply, from wherever it may come.. This may mean that we follow the revelations the Lord gives us through the living prophet, or it may mean we follow the revelations the Lord gives is any other way... We are to dicern wisely, and best by being dependent on Christ alone.

log wrote:...(the Entire post)...

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymhug: :ymparty:

Wonderful!!!

I would like to add this scripture:

James 1:5
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let HIM ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." - James 1:5

Not that is says that the man lacking wisdom should ask God, not that the man lacking wisdom should ask the prophet to ask God...

You a new hero of mine for this post!!!
Amonhi

laronius wrote:This seems to be a pretty common theme in your posts so you must see it as a problem in the Church today.

I know right! He is definitely on the road to apostasy from the church... but being apostate from God is a bigger deal, and the point of his post... IMO. I used to have this problem too and I believe that I had it due to the common teachings in the church which I once accepted without question.

Would you mind sharing with us the specific signs you see that leads you to the opinion that the general membership of the Church don't believe in following the Spirit?

I don't think that the church teaches that we should not follow the spirit, so I would like to ask a different question... If your personal revelation from the spirit contradicts what the church teaches or the prophet, which do you follow, believe, accept and live? Who do you trust more, the your personal revelation via the spirit or the prophet/church? What is the Church's official stance on that question? What is the general membership's stance on that question? I think that the answer to this will determine if the church puts man/men above God and if the OP is pointing out that this is a problem in the church today like it was anciently and like it was when Joseph Smith what instructing the church when he said,

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that THEY WERE depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds..." - TotPJS, Section Five 1842-43, p.237

In Peace

hyloglyph wrote:

log wrote:

JST, Matthew 5:21
21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven.

When, therefore, I see a man judging the motivations of others, I know from whence he comes.

Really log? Can you really know?

This is the exact opposite of what you were saying in the priestcraft thread. I could even see your logic there, but now I read you posting things like this?

Judging is something you do internally, so how can you truly know if someone is judging without revelation?

lol check the priestcraft thread

Sorry log, I think hyloglyph has a point here... The don't judge others part was just negated by you saying, "I know from whence he comes." meaning you just judged him...

At the same time, I see what your intention is and I agree with your intention. The part I cling to is that "with what judgement we judge we will be judged." If that is a true promise, then if we always judge others on the side of innocence, then we will be judged the same and found innocent at the last day. Free ticket to heaven.

BTW, I didn't read the priestcraft thread, so I am not addressing remarks to that extent.

I still LOVE your original post!

,
Amonhi

Videre faciem Dei wrote:

laronius wrote:But you didn't answer my question. What specific sign do you see in the Church where the members have chosen not to follow the Spirit?

Here are a few signs:

https://www.lds.org/manual/scripture-st ... 8?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... l-guidance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (See footnote 24)

http://lds.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite ... 3Flang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (paragraph on mysteries)

These are examples of members being counseled by leaders and church publications to follow leaders and not pray for direction by the Holy Spirit. In fact, the entire correlation effort is a great example of not following the Spirit. We are told what to teach, how to teach, what resources to use, with no room for the Spirit to direct us. I hear lip service paid to the idea that we should follow the spirit, by try doing it in your lessons and see what happens.

The OP is right on the money, and we as a church are idolaters. Myself included. I'm still working on that.

Here is another "sign"...

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-wi ... 9?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you are reading that chapter, ask yourself how the spirit fits into this? Because the prophet can't lead us astray, we really don't need the spirit, right? #-o

Also, I will reference the term, "Follow the Prophet" which negates the oath and covenant of the priesthood by expecting us to be influenced by a person's priesthood or position in that priesthood rather than by persuasion or the godly principles. Remember this primary song?

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet; don’t go astray.
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet; he knows the way.

Why are we not saying, "Following the Spirit."

When did we start teaching that we should follow man?

InfoWarrior82 wrote:If one follows the prophet without confirmation from the Spirit that he is indeed a prophet of God, that person will eventually fall away from the Lord because he built his house upon the sand.

If one follows the prophet with confirmation from the Spirit that he is indeed a prophet of God, that person will have a better chance at enduring to the end in the restored gospel which provides the iron rod. His house is built upon the rock.

I agree, but would take this much further... You need to follow your own revelation even when it contradicts the prophet, even when you know he is a prophet. You need to be a prophet too.

What happens when one prophet tries to override the revelation of another and succeeds? See 1 Kings 13

log-

I tried to send you a pm but its giving me fits, not sure if its going through, but here it is.

I appreciate the clarification. I actually don't disagree with your overall message of relying on the Spirit. That in the end is what all members need to learn to do. But I think we can emphasize that message while not downplaying the need for prophets. God gave us both because we need both. It doesn't have to be one or the other and I know you agree with that but I think it is better to stress the importance of the roll each plays rather than pit them as opposing forces.

Laronius

Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the spokesman for God on the Earth. That doesn't mean LDS Prophets are infallible. However, we know we can receive the will of God through the LDS Prophet and we can independently pray and recieve a confirming witness that what the Prophets have said is true.

Keep your eye on the brethern.

laronius wrote:log-

I tried to send you a pm but its giving me fits, not sure if its going through, but here it is.

I appreciate the clarification. I actually don't disagree with your overall message of relying on the Spirit. That in the end is what all members need to learn to do. But I think we can emphasize that message while not downplaying the need for prophets. God gave us both because we need both. It doesn't have to be one or the other and I know you agree with that but I think it is better to stress the importance of the roll each plays rather than pit them as opposing forces.

Laronius

Laronius,

With the Spirit, there is no need for prophets, because one is a prophet. Prophets are for those who do not have the Spirit, and their primary task is to teach others to obtain the Spirit as well. That is why those who follow the prophets, as opposed to obeying their teachings and becoming prophets, go to hell and then get the telestial for their pains.

If, therefore, you be not a prophet, your first and only obligation is to become one. If you be a prophet, then your duty is to teach men how to become prophets.

davedan wrote:Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the spokesman for God on the Earth. That doesn't mean LDS Prophets are infallible. However, we know we can receive the will of God through the LDS Prophet and we can independently pray and recieve a confirming witness that what the Prophets have said is true.

Keep your eye on the brethern.

Why? For what end?

davedan wrote:Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the spokesman for God on the Earth. That doesn't mean LDS Prophets are infallible. However, we know we can receive the will of God through the LDS Prophet and we can independently pray and recieve a confirming witness that what the Prophets have said is true.

Keep your eye on the brethern.

Isn't that building a dam between you and God? How does a person become damned? Why not follow God?

log wrote:[That is why those who follow the prophets, as opposed to obeying their teachings and becoming prophets, go to hell and then get the telestial for their pains.

Huh?

Click the links.

I think what we really can say is that as soon as we start to worship any men, it becomes idolatry. That can be the prophet or any other teacher. The Lord truely often teaches us lessens in unexpected ways, for some this unexpected can come from a weak and simple person, for others that may come from the prophet. I think it is dangerous to fix too much on any man, but it is always a good thing to listen, and to focus on truth that gets thaught. No matte though where truth comes from, it will always need our independent on own relationchip with Christ to dicern truth.

Amonhi wrote:

InfoWarrior82 wrote:If one follows the prophet without confirmation from the Spirit that he is indeed a prophet of God, that person will eventually fall away from the Lord because he built his house upon the sand.

If one follows the prophet with confirmation from the Spirit that he is indeed a prophet of God, that person will have a better chance at enduring to the end in the restored gospel which provides the iron rod. His house is built upon the rock.

I agree, but would take this much further... You need to follow your own revelation even when it contradicts the prophet, even when you know he is a prophet. You need to be a prophet too.

What happens when one prophet tries to override the revelation of another and succeeds? See 1 Kings 13

No revelation given to anyone will contradict what the prophet has already told the world. If it does, rest assured that it didn't come from God.

In every instance in the scriptures when the Lord's prophets were weak, He strengthened them, chastised them and set them on the course they needed to be on. Every single time. Remember what the Lord told Joseph Smith if he refused to follow the Lord's commands?

If a prophet is connected to heaven, the Lord may chastise that prophet personaly....But if he has lost his connectio to heaven God often chastises him by another prophet. If,theoreticaly, his church went astray, God would send such prophets as Samuel the Prophet, or Lehi, or even Christ himselfe. They all came into a religius system and almoust noone recignized them as Gods messangers. This has happened so many times before that we need to learn a lesson from that, and this lesson is that we always need to depend on the Lord alone to see, and to understand truth, may that come through the prophet, or a stranger. That way we will always be able to dicern and know what is right in the Lords eye

log wrote:

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

What are you inferring? I really hope it is not evil speaking of the Lord's anointed, because that is breaking a solemn covenant.

What have the Lord's anointed said about such criticism?

“Criticism is particularly objectionable when it is directed toward Church authorities, general or local. Jude condemns those who ‘speak evil of dignities.’ (Jude 1:8.) Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true. As Elder George F. Richards, President of the Council of the Twelve, said in a conference address in April 1947,

“‘When we say anything bad about the leaders of the Church, whether true or false, we tend to impair their influence and their usefulness and are thus working against the Lord and his cause.’ (In Conference Report, Apr. 1947, p. 24.)” (Address to Church Educational System teachers, Aug. 16, 1985.)

- Elder Dallin H. Oaks, Feb. 1987.

Log, I warn you to not wrest the scriptures, because it will be to your own destruction and condemnation. The manner in which you are using the scriptures shows a great lack of understanding of them.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Also:

Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

...and...

For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

...finally...

Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

The Prophet and Apostles are speaking to us by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore, they are speaking the words of Christ, wherefore, feast upon the words of Christ, for the words of Christ will show and tell you all things what ye should do.

Enter in by the way log and seek no more to find fault or speak evil of the the Lord's anointed servants.

Edit: Look at my signature for more information about what a prophet said about evil speaking.

Alighieri wrote: The Prophet and Apostles are speaking to us by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore, they are speaking the words of Christ, wherefore, feast upon the words of Christ, for the words of Christ will show and tell you all things what ye should do.

Enter in by the way log and seek no more to find fault or speak evil of the the Lord's anointed servants.

Edit: Look at my signature for more information about what a prophet said about evil speaking.

What are trying to say? Do you believe the Holy Ghost is only for leaders?

This is not about speaking evil of leaders. It is about the fact that 2 Nephi 32. is talking about the Holy Ghost speaking directly to you, not a go between. Do you really think a prophet can follow you around all day and "show unto you all things what you should do"? The Holy Ghost can and will follow you all day. This is important doctrine and the only path to salvation. It is damnation to walk any other path.

Alighieri wrote:The Prophet and Apostles are speaking to us by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore, they are speaking the words of Christ, wherefore, feast upon the words of Christ, for the words of Christ will show and tell you all things what ye should do.

The terrible irony is that Nephi used those words to condemn those who would look to him, a prophet, for direction about what they should do.

You could not have written anything that would better prove the thesis of the OP. It makes me want to cry.

Also, do you understand that it makes absolutely no sense to assume that "The Prophet and Apostles are speaking to us by the power of the Holy Ghost"? Please just look at that assumption from the outside. It goes against everything Joseph taught. It defies reason. It flies in the face of the historical record. to assume it is to practice idolatry, pure and simple.

Thomas wrote:

davedan wrote:Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the spokesman for God on the Earth. That doesn't mean LDS Prophets are infallible. However, we know we can receive the will of God through the LDS Prophet and we can independently pray and recieve a confirming witness that what the Prophets have said is true.

Keep your eye on the brethern.

Why? For what end?

Very simple Thomas. Because they will lead you to Christ. After all this back and forth on this forum for years I am amazed that people still do not seem to understand the role of a Prophet.

Anthony W. Ivins (First Presidency)
A careful study of the etymology of the word and of the lives, works and character of the prophets of old makes clear the fact that a prophet was, and is, one called to act as God's messenger. He is to teach men the character of God, and define and make known to the people, his will. He is to denounce sin, and declare the punishment of transgression. He is to be above all else a preacher of righteousness, and when the people depart from the path which he has marked out for them to follow, is to call them back to the true faith. He is an interpreter of the scripture, and declares its meaning and application. When future events are to be declared he predicts them, but his direct, and most important calling is to be a forth-teller, or director of present policy, rather than a foreteller of that which is to come. (Conference Report, October 1925, p.20)

Think for a minute about what Moses tried to do in his role as Prophet:

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his danger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

What if the children of Israel had followed Moses in this righteous endeavor? Was it a waste of time for them to give heed to him and do as he directed them to do? I think not. As we follow the directive and counsel of the Lords messenger and spokesman The Lord will bless us with added spiritual strength and guidance by His spirit allowing us to attain sanctification and the ability to endure his presence. Isn't that what we are here to do?

Alighieri wrote:

log wrote:

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

What are you inferring? I really hope it is not evil speaking of the Lord's anointed, because that is breaking a solemn covenant.

What have the Lord's anointed said about such criticism?

The Lord's anointed said it - I merely quoted him; take it up with the Lord; you judge me, contrary to the commandments.

Log, I warn you to not wrest the scriptures, because it will be to your own destruction and condemnation. The manner in which you are using the scriptures shows a great lack of understanding of them.

I see you do not agree with the scriptures.

1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Also:

Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

...and...

For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

...finally...

Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

The Prophet and Apostles are speaking to us by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore, they are speaking the words of Christ, wherefore, feast upon the words of Christ, for the words of Christ will show and tell you all things what ye should do.

How is it that you have quoted those scriptures without understanding them?

Enter in by the way log and seek no more to find fault or speak evil of the the Lord's anointed servants.

Edit: Look at my signature for more information about what a prophet said about evil speaking.

You have made false accusations, for in nothing have I spoken evil of anyone, and you have judged me contrary to the commandments of the Lord.

keep the faith wrote:Very simple Thomas. Because they will lead you to Christ. After all this back and forth on this forum for years I am amazed that people still do not seem to understand the role of a Prophet.

As I pointed out earlier, the role of a prophet is to preach repentance. Enoch is a great example. He obtained the presence of the Lord and ordained a High Priest forever after the Holy Order of the Son of God. He was then sent by the Lord to preach repentance to the people. When they repented, they too obtained the presence of God in their own lives. The process of how one becomes a prophet is outlined nicely in Alma 13.

Contrast that with the men we call prophets today. They offer heartwarming stories, tell us how wonderfully the work is going forward, tell us to hasten the work, wiggle their ears, and talk about their endless acts of service. They are good men to be sure, but do they teach us by testifying of their own experiences with God? Do they teach about how THEY obtained the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost? Do they teach about when THEY were in the presence of the Lord, like Joseph Smith? Do they see into heaven and share what they have learned? And by this I mean knowledge, not instructions on how we should behave. No, instead they insist that these things are too sacred to share. They imply all kinds of things but are not bold enough to proclaim them. That is NOT the example set by the true prophets of the scriptures.

True prophets do not lead. They point. They encourage. They bear true testimony. They do not compel or coerce. When we say that we NEED a prophet, we are in the gall of idolatry.

**Edited for grammar**

keep the faith wrote:

Thomas wrote:

davedan wrote:Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the spokesman for God on the Earth. That doesn't mean LDS Prophets are infallible. However, we know we can receive the will of God through the LDS Prophet and we can independently pray and recieve a confirming witness that what the Prophets have said is true.

Keep your eye on the brethern.

Why? For what end?

Very simple Thomas. Because they will lead you to Christ.

Have you then stood in the presence of Christ? Been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost?