LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **November 5th, 2013, 2:06 pm**

Is the "Church" with its "priesthood" the only way man can be saved, (as Exalted Gods?)

For there is no respect of persons with God.
(New Testament | Romans 2:11)

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.(New Testament | Romans 2:12 - 13)

Notice how some "Gentiles" who have not the "law," be it the "priesthood law" or not "do by nature the things contained in the law"...

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;(New Testament | Romans 2:14 - 15)

Notice... "their conscience bearing witness" of the truth!... that saves unto salvation or exaltation, have no need of "priesthood ordinances" because they "do by nature the things contained in the law."

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.(New Testament | Romans 2:17 - 24)

Notice "thou art called a Jew" (might as well be a "Mormon" or a Catholic or whatever! The point is seriously taken... the "law" or "priesthood" is only as good as the personal righteousness or integrity (character) of the individual!

For "circumcision" or "baptism" or any "priesthood ordinance" "profiteth, if thou keep the law" ... meaning the personal righteousness of the law within ones heart and mind, such as unconditional love for others, unconditional honesty in all dealings, unconditional virtue in all thoughts, unconditional patience to all people, unconditional kindness to all creatures.

If we really understood "priesthood," we would realize it is really a metaphor for righteousness of the heart and mind or as Paul said "their conscience also bearing witness" of this inner truth we all possess innately (called "potential" to "become" a god)!

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.(New Testament | Romans 2:25 - 29)

All this is evidence that if we have removed or rejected the idea that "all people" have the "potential" to become "gods" by obeying their "inner" "conscience" and "do by nature the things contained in the law" ... if we have removed this concept by saying: "they are damned" if they do not go through our "priesthood ordinances" or pay our "tithing" ... then we have "rejected" not only the words of Joseph Smith but of "God" also! And we "damn" ourselves by so believing this false doctrine!

Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But He (God) is only a respecter of personal righteousness and the integrity of character which we all have the potential to manifest!
(New Testament | Acts 10:34)

Posted: **November 5th, 2013, 2:15 pm**

D&C 22:1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.

2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.

Baptism is necessary.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:29
29 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mormon 9:23
23 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned;

Doctrine and Covenants 68:9
9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ether 4:18
18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.

And you must keep the commandments of the Lord. Those may or may not coincide with the commandments of men, or the commandments of the Church. It's up to each individual to search that out in the light of Christ.

3 Nephi 12:20
20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The commandments he's referring to are in 3 Nephi 12-15. Remember that, next time you sing "Keep the Commandments".

Oddly, home teaching isn't on the list.

Posted: **November 5th, 2013, 2:18 pm**

Lecture Third:
23 But it is also necessary that men should have an idea that he is no respecter of persons; for with the idea of all the other excellencies in his character, and this one wanting, men could not exercise faith in him, because if he were a respecter of persons, they could not tell what their privileges were, nor how far they were authorized to exercise faith in him, or whether they were authorized to do it at all, but all must be confusion; but no sooner are the minds of men made acquainted with the truth on this point, that he is no respecter of persons, than they see that they have authority by faith to lay hold on eternal life the richest boon of heaven, because God is no respecter of persons, and that every man in every nation has an equal privilege.

Posted: **November 5th, 2013, 2:23 pm**

You can be baptized by the Holy Ghost and "Know it not" like the Lamanites.

But ultimately, you will happily submit to God's priesthood authority and receive the necessary ordinances and enter into the necessary covenants.

On one hand, "where there is no law, there is no sin". On the other hand, "you cannot be saved in ignorance".

Posted: **November 5th, 2013, 2:27 pm**

davedan wrote:You can be baptized by the Holy Ghost and "Know it not" like the Lamanites.
...
On the other hand, "you cannot be saved in ignorance".

The Lamanites referred to are those in Helaman 5 (proven from Ether 12:14) - they "knew it not" meaning "did not understand what had happened"; otherwise, you have a contradiction between those two sentences.

Posted: **November 5th, 2013, 2:35 pm**

The entire Book of Hebrews in the New Testament has answered many of my questions regarding the essential nature of the Priesthood - particularly The Melchizedek Priesthood - to Eternal Salvation.

If God declares He is no 'respecter of persons', then we have to believe Him.

We also know that ALL will have the opportunity to advance spiritually either as mortals or as those who had no LAW in mortality but with further instruction beyond the Veil.

Those who receive The Melchizedek Priesthood in this life have a greater responsibility to put that Power to work.

Posted: **November 5th, 2013, 3:28 pm**

log wrote:
D&C 22:1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.

2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.
Baptism is necessary.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:29
29 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mormon 9:23
23 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned;

Doctrine and Covenants 68:9
9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ether 4:18
18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.
And you must keep the commandments of the Lord. Those may or may not coincide with the commandments of men, or the commandments of the Church. It's up to each individual to search that out in the light of Christ.

3 Nephi 12:20
20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The commandments he's referring to are in 3 Nephi 12-15. Remember that, next time you sing "Keep the Commandments".

Oddly, home teaching isn't on the list.

To "keep" the law means "to hold sacred that which is true." What is "true" is "within" each person and it is our responsibility and accountability to come to grips with that inner "truth!"
Evidenced by these statements:
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
(New Testament | John 10:34)

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
(New Testament | Luke 17:21)

what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 27:27)

Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:23)

The "Spirit of truth" has always been within us... it is our duty to embrace it and "become" a manifestation of it now that we have a mortal body... and in this same way the "kingdom of God is within" each of us if we awaken to this truth. Therefore we truly are "gods" in embryo and just need to "act upon" it and not be "acted upon," thinking the "letter of the law" will exalt us because it won't, it can't, it is impossible to be exalted by "the letter of the law." For if the blood of bulls and of goats or our baptism in a font of water or lake could exalt us we would all be exalted. "Saved"... yes but not "Exalted" as the God's.

Posted: **November 5th, 2013, 4:11 pm**

Don't worry. If you read between the lines, I'm not opposing your view.

Posted: **November 6th, 2013, 2:52 pm**

log wrote:Don't worry. If you read between the lines, I'm not opposing your view.

Reading between the lines is like skating on thin ice... we are never sure if we are interpreting the thickness of the ice correctly. I would like to make a comment on your statement, "baptism is necessary."

Most often if not always we look at "baptism in water" as an ordinance of priesthood authority, and to be valid and acceptable it must be done by one having legitimate authority if we are to enter the Celestial kingdom. I believe there is a much bigger picture in play. For example, all who are born into mortality are "baptized" in the watery womb of birth. And we come forth out of the water, is this not a ordinance as well? All ordinances are symbolic and we must come to see this symbolism if we expect to be Gods one day... If we don't learn to see things symbolically then we tend to become "judgmental" in our beliefs, seeing through a glass darkly, creating separation and divisions, instead of seeing the "oneness" of god/God in all things. So in this broader sense, baptism continues to be essential to salvation for any soul coming to earth and moving on. With this in mind, the Saviors baptism makes more sense:

And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:5 - 6)

Now lets take it a step further. Several places in the scriptures it talks about being "baptized in his holy name."

This symbolizes being "immersed" completely "in" His HOLY NAME, which is "in" godliness and holiness of character until (through the tests of mortality) we see Him and speak with Him "face to face" and being of the same belief, we KNOW that we are in His true Image and are "no respecter of persons" as He is, having the "same mind" and "oneness" that He offers to all regardless of race or religion.

That as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved—
26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life,
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 20:25 - 26)

Posted: **November 6th, 2013, 3:01 pm**

Mayby we need to look at it from an eternal perspective.. You always could say, well, children that die are automaticly saved in the kingdom of God, and others are born into horrible lifes which seem to have no end. Out of our perspective this may seem unfair, but when the Lord says he is no respecter of persons, he also gives the sure promise that each individual will have equal conditions,chances.. Since this is obviously not the case out of our short, worldy view, there have to be other ways the Lord brings to pass such justice.

Posted: **November 6th, 2013, 3:06 pm**

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

Posted: **November 6th, 2013, 3:48 pm**

All ordinances are symbolic and we must come to see this symbolism if we expect to be Gods one day!

Whether ancient or modern Israel... all ordinances and ceremonies are symbolic:

And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;
30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.
31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.
32 And now, did they understand the law? I say unto you, Nay, they did not all understand the law; and this because of the hardness of their hearts; for they understood not that there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 13:29 - 32)

I fear most people have fallen into the "formalism" mode of salvation and are blind to the symbolism God is giving us through all our ordinances and ceremonies we currently have today in Church and Temples.

"According to the Old Testament, things or places were holy that were set apart for a sacred purpose; the opposite of holy is therefore common or profane (1 Sam. 21:5; Ezek. 22:26; 42:20; 44:23; 48:13–15). Similarly a holy person meant one who held a sacred office. The Israelites were a holy people because they stood in a special relationship to Jehovah. Under the guidance of the Prophets it was seen that what distinguished Jehovah from the gods of the heathen was His personal character. The word holy therefore came to refer to moral character (Lev. 11:44; 19:2; 21:8; Isa. 6:3–8). Israel must be holy in character because the God of Israel was holy (Jer. 7:4–7; see also Matt. 5:48). The Law of Holiness (Lev. 17–26) shows how the attempt was made by means of ceremonial observances to secure this holiness of character. The attempt failed because the later Jews observed the letter and neglected the spirit; they attached more importance to the ceremonial than to the moral; and the result was a lapse into formalism. But in the writings of the Prophets it is clearly laid down that the value of worship in the eyes of God depends upon the personal character of the worshipper." (LDS Bible Dictionary, Holiness).

Posted: **November 6th, 2013, 4:27 pm**

Simon wrote:Mayby we need to look at it from an eternal perspective.. You always could say, well, children that die are automaticly saved in the kingdom of God, and others are born into horrible lifes which seem to have no end. Out of our perspective this may seem unfair, but when the Lord says he is no respecter of persons, he also gives the sure promise that each individual will have equal conditions,chances.. Since this is obviously not the case out of our short, worldy view, there have to be other ways the Lord brings to pass such justice.

I agree, the "eternal perspective" will always be the best perspective to view life from, and from a mortal view this world is about as bad as it gets I think. I have often thought: maybe this is really "hell" and we are trying to find "heaven" in the process. After all we apparently need to experience the "opposites" to know the good from evil from a mortal perspective. So we all came with the "light of Christ" which I know is Gods perspective within each of us, and we all have an opportunity to bury it or embrace it in mortality or the Spirit world. embrace the light!

Posted: **November 6th, 2013, 4:36 pm**

davedan wrote:You can be baptized by the Holy Ghost and "Know it not" like the Lamanites.

But ultimately, you will happily submit to God's priesthood authority and receive the necessary ordinances and enter into the necessary covenants.

On one hand, "where there is no law, there is no sin". On the other hand, "you cannot be saved in ignorance".

"ultimately" what matters is how we view "righteousness" and "holiness of character," and "become" a manifestation of it! Regardless of race or religion.

Posted: **November 7th, 2013, 8:39 am**

John 3:5-8

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Our physical birth is represented in water baptism. It is the baptism of our spirit which is of the Spirit is the baptism which must take place so that our soul can be redeemed through the process of resurrection. What is our soul?

D&C 88:15-16

15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

D&C 88:67-68

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.
68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

Now, our spirit is released from flesh bodies which die. The spirit is eternal…but the flesh body is not. The flesh body is mortal; it is corruptible. Only a resurrected body can become an immortal and incorruptible body. A united spirit with an incorruptible resurrected body is a soul which has been redeemed…an exalted “soul”.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:06 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Our spirit is bound to the bondage of physical death (second death) until such time as our spirit is born of the Spirit (our own spirit becomes/manifests the “Holy” [becomes the Holy Spirit] and “divine” which it is). What we need to “overcome” is our bondage to second death. How many times our spirit experiences “second death” is up to us as determined by the choices we make. Until we overcome, we will continue to do our “part” in second death where “death” and “hell” are. As such, our goal should be to be a part of the first resurrection….to be a part of the church of the first born; to get past corruption and our bondage to second death. Jesus of Nazareth overcame this bondage and showed us the “Way” by becoming our Christ…our Savior. I offer that in order for Him to have been able to overcome this bondage, that He also experienced His own “part” in the lake of fire and brimstone/bondage. IOW, that the spirit that dwelled in the body of Jesus of Nazareth, had been in bondage to second death; thus experiencing the same things we all must experience in order to finally obtain an incorruptible and glorified body. Otherwise, God would be a respecter of persons….expecting us to experience things that the spirit which dwelled in the flesh body of Jesus of Nazareth did not have to experience. To be clear, the spirit that dwelled in the body of Jesus of Nazareth had experienced the death of physical bodies prior to the probation in which that spirit was able to overcome. Edited to add: And that this spirit had already overcome in a previous probationary period; but this spirit (already a "Holy Spirit" before being born of Mary), returned to the physical realm in order to fill the role of this world system's Christ and Savior. In fact, it is due to the fact that this spirit was already a "Holy Spirit" can help explain how Mary became pregnant in the unclear manner described in the Bible.

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