Priesthood can raise the dead? Is this true?

[taliesin]

The line that Came to Jethro is discussed in the D&C and part of it is recorded in the Islamic scriptures.

The Melchizedek priesthood Line of Shem, son of Noah eventually extended down through Asia is was active and prominent in throughout the history of China and Tibet for very many years. Some say that some of the Tibetans still have the ancient knowledge and priesthood far beyond what we Mormons are ready to accept today.

Hello Amonhi - can you point me to any books or websites that talk more about this line of priesthood that made its way into central and eastern Asia? Do you think there are people there in Tibet who still have this priesthood? Do you think the Tibetan priesthood (and any other existing priesthood lines) will ever be merged with the LDS church? What knowledge and priesthood do the Tibetans have that is so far beyond what we as Mormons are ready to accept?

This scripture from Isaiah comes to mind - "And then, O house of Israel, behold, these shall come from far; and lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim" (1 Nephi 21:12). Sinim is a place name that refers to the Orient or China.

- Joe

[Amonhi]

I just found this: http://www.believeallthings.com/2777/pr ... -nephites/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It expresses my beliefs on the subject of priesthood among the Nephites.

This is an interesting article... I do not agree with the conclusion that the Nephites had the Melchizedek Priesthood prior to Christ or they would have been giving the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands prior to Christ as well as teaching the exalting principles. Their entire focus are the saving principles of the Aaronic priesthood and the Atonement namely, faith, repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, the law of Moses, etc. The closest they come to the exalting principles is to say that God will give to them the Holy Ghost, which He did. And it was given to them like it was given to Christ, directly from God...

2 Nephi 31:12 - 12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

To the Nephites, as well as the Children of Israel in the bible, from the time of Moses to Christ, the Holy Ghost just came to them without the laying on of hands. It was truly a gift from God and not given by men. (One could easily argue that it comes the same way today.)

2 Nephi 31:17 - 17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

Here is an example in which Christ says people were given the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands...of course he also is saying that they received it without the physical ordinance of Baptism, (a fairly common thing today as well).

3 Nephi 9:20 - 20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

They knew it not because there was no physical ordinance performed, not even baptism because it happened "at the time of their conversion" not the following Sunday or whenever they could set a baptismal date. Who was Christ referring to? Not Lamonhi and his entire house hold although they would fit the bill perfectly. He was referencing the prison guards in Hel. 5.

41 And Aminadab said unto them: You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you.
42 And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed.
43 And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire.
44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.
45 And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words.

Again, the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost was not taught or performed from Moses until Christ in both the Book of Mormon and the bible. Neither did they teach the exalting principles of the Higher order until after Christ.

[log]

My assumption is that Lehi received the priesthood in one of his many visions, revelations or angel experiences which may or may not be detailed in the Book of Lehi.

And here, I must quote something directly relevant.

Study the word of God, and preach it and not your opinions, for no man’s opinion is worth a straw. Advance no principle but what you can prove, for one scriptural proof is worth ten thousand opinions. - First Presidency

[log]

Here is an example in which Christ says people were given the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands...of course he also is saying that they received it without the physical ordinance of Baptism, (a fairly common thing today as well).

Do you have a confirmable example of such? I have found none outside of the Church, and all of those were baptized.

[Amonhi]

That is correct. To receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is to receive the fullness thereof.

I so not agree. The Holy Ghost is a Phase of the Light of Christ. It is the second phase of the Light of Christ. The Third phase is the Second Comforter.

Everyone born into the world has a portion of the light of Christ.

When you receive a portion of the Holy Ghost then you have received a fulness of the Light of Christ. When you receive a portion of the Second Comforter, then you have received a fulness of the Holy Ghost. When you receive the Father, then you have received a fulness of the Son/Second Comforter.

And how much of the Spirit did Christ have?

At what point in his life? Jesus took on the name and Spirit of Christ. He learned obedience by the things which he suffered and when he was made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him...

Those who have been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost have received of the Spirit of God unto the fullness, like unto Christ, according to the promises of the Father. That is how we take upon us the name of Christ.

We are in agreement partially, and it is nice to discuss with someone who understands so much. I believe that we are willing to take on us the name of Christ at Baptism, and we receive a remission of sins and a portion of the Holy Ghost to help us on that journey. We have the baptism of fire which cleans us to make us a holy temple for God, The Holy Spirit to dwell because the Holy Ghost does not dwell in unholy temples. We must be cleaned to receive even a portion of the Holy Ghost. And we have to be cleaned every time the Holy Ghost dwells in us. This is not a one time cleaning and is symbolized by the Sacrament which is taken regularly.

Then when we receive a portion of the Second Comforter we have taken on us the name of Christ by becoming one with Christ, but only in part. We have the Christ consciousness come and go like the spirit did while we learned to be one with it. This continues until we learn to have the second comforter with us always as Jesus did which means that you can call him Jesus or Christ or Jesus Christ and you are correct because they are one.

The Three kingdoms show the process of this progression. Telestial has not begun the path. Terrestrial has begun the path with a testimony of Christ, symbolic baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost to help them alone the path, but they have not yet finished the path. Celestial has finished the path that leads to eternal life and have arrived at Eternal life and begin progressing from that new view point.

The Terrestrial is the middle ground. It is the path. The destination of the path is the CK and eternal life. That is a HUGE middle ground. Nearly the entire church today is in that middle ground.

Respectfully,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

It appears as though we are no longer discussing the OP (and I'm not sure that we ever were after the 2nd or 3rd post ;) ).

lol, I think your right!

But, I remember reading some very interesting things about brother Iohanni Wolfgram, who was referred to as a great Tongan High Priest, known for working miracles, dreaming dreams, and seeing visions. He raised from the dead his own daughter, and at least one other man.

His family has documented some of his history, which you can find if you search the internet.

I'll have to look him up...

It is a bit funny, but I recall that Wayne Dyer raised his pet fish from the dead...

Edit - I was asked by my friend to not share his experience...So I removed it.

[log]

I [do] not agree.

You don't have to. It's cool, bro.

[Amonhi]

My assumption is that Lehi received the priesthood in one of his many visions, revelations or angel experiences which may or may not be detailed in the Book of Lehi.

And here, I must quote something directly relevant.

Study the word of God, and preach it and not your opinions, for no man’s opinion is worth a straw. Advance no principle but what you can prove, for one scriptural proof is worth ten thousand opinions. - First Presidency

I find that advice to be irrelevant. Relying on scriptural proof is a limited and faulty plan. Look at the number of churches that have been created basing their beliefs on scripture and proving there teachings by the word of God using the logic of men.

The opinions of a prophet are worth considering...

Alma 40:20 - 20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.

Yes, I am a prophet.

[log]

The opinions of a prophet are worth considering... Yes, I am a prophet.

So were the men who said "no man's opinion is worth a straw."

[Amonhi]

Here is an example in which Christ says people were given the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands...of course he also is saying that they received it without the physical ordinance of Baptism, (a fairly common thing today as well).

Do you have a confirmable example of such? I have found none outside of the Church, and all of those were baptized.

Yes, I know a number of such people.

One such person is a young girl whom I know personally. She is being raised under the higher law, like the children who will be born in the millennium, "without sin to salvation". She is 11 years old, has not been baptized and has the spirit as much as or more than most. I also know a number of protestant preachers who do and have experienced a number of the gifts of the spirit. I also know a bum who has his C&E and goes about teaching and helping the homeless in a way that most can't.

Yes, yes and yes, many confirmed examples. Here is another example from scripture:

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 ¶While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

How about Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry? yes, they were baptized, but didn't receive the HG by the laying on of hands...

Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and aprophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.

74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood.

Baptism by itself does not enlighten the mind. The word of God cannot be understood except by the spirit of God which they now had and which remained with them, (with some exceptions).

[log]

I'm sorry - it appears what I was asking was not understood. I will be extremely explicit.

How do you know any person outside of the Church has been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost? What sensory data (firsthand experience) gives you knowledge about their having received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, as opposed to mere belief or opinion?

Spiritual blessings is not a substitute. As you and I disagree upon what the baptism of fire consists of, at most one of us can be right; both of us can be wrong.

I'm not asking for scriptural examples; indeed, with respect to the "pre-baptismal" ones, you'll note that in each instance they were ministered to by true prophets.

[Amonhi]

The line that Came to Jethro is discussed in the D&C and part of it is recorded in the Islamic scriptures.

The Melchizedek priesthood Line of Shem, son of Noah eventually extended down through Asia is was active and prominent in throughout the history of China and Tibet for very many years. Some say that some of the Tibetans still have the ancient knowledge and priesthood far beyond what we Mormons are ready to accept today.

Hello Amonhi - can you point me to any books or websites that talk more about this line of priesthood that made its way into central and eastern Asia?

I have found very little historical documentation on it. I have learned most of what I have from communion with them directly via meditation. There is a reasonably good book that shows the history of China from the first 100 families that settled China. It is written for 4th graders or at a 4th grade level by a teacher if I remember correctly. It is called, "Pageant of Chinese History" by Elizabeth Seeger. Pretty clear as you see prophets warning the kings and others that if they did not live good that bad things would happen, like being attacked by the Huns (who pose as the Lamanites in this senario).

[Amonhi]

Off topic: From that book, here is a prayer offered by a righteous Chinese ruler with a animal sacrifice in the 1600's:

"O sovereign Heaven, O supreme ruler, with trust and reverence I ask Your help in the war that I mus undertake. I have made one vow, to bestow the blessings of peace throughout the vast territory over which You have placed me. But this Tarter chief destroys my hopes; he sows disorder everywhere and tramples Your laws underfoot. I hold from You the right to make war upon the wicked; I implore Your support and offer up sacrifice."

After which, he beat the Tarter chief over and over until the Tarter chief killed himself. The ruler of China was referred to as the Son of Heaven.

Maybe someone can separate these off topic parts and start a new thread with them. hint, hint (moderators)

back on topic...
Raising animals from the dead...

Edit: I was asked by my friend not to share this experience, so I removed it.

[Amonhi]

The opinions of a prophet are worth considering... Yes, I am a prophet.

So were the men who said "no man's opinion is worth a straw."

Absolutely! The quorum of the twelve that wrote that are prophets and should be considered. But you also shouldn't hold on to bad ideas and philosophies just because a prophet said them. Consider them "yes", accept them blindly without question, intelligence and the witness of the spirit, "no". Myself included...

Humbly,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

I'm sorry - it appears what I was asking was not understood. I will be extremely explicit.

How do you know any person outside of the Church has been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost? What sensory data (firsthand experience) gives you knowledge about their having received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, as opposed to mere belief or opinion?

Spiritual blessings is not a substitute. As you and I disagree upon what the baptism of fire consists of, at most one of us can be right; both of us can be wrong.

I'm not asking for scriptural examples; indeed, with respect to the "pre-baptismal" ones, you'll note that in each instance they were ministered to by true prophets.

I started a new thread to discuss this so as to not derail this cool topic any further: HERE

[log]

This thread was dead after post #3.

[Amonhi]

This thread was dead after post #3.

Can the priesthood resurrect this dead thread?

ROFL!!!
Amonhi

[log]

The opinions of a prophet are worth considering... Yes, I am a prophet.

So were the men who said "no man's opinion is worth a straw."

Absolutely! The quorum of the twelve that wrote that are prophets and should be considered. But you also shouldn't hold on to bad ideas and philosophies just because a prophet said them. Consider them "yes", accept them blindly without question, intelligence and the witness of the spirit, "no". Myself included...

Humbly,
Amonhi

I wholeheartedly agree with the First Presidency (and some of the Q12) that no man's opinion is worth a straw, even if that man is a prophet; to think otherwise is to make oneself a respecter of men. Knowledge is the only thing that counts.

[azalea.rubicon]

My family was the first members to be baptized in this tiny little island in the Pacific. One day my mom's sister came rushing into our house bawling and hysterical. She told us her son is at clinic nearby in a serious condition fighting for his life from roasted pig poisoning. She wasn't a member of the church but she knew my parent's faith and my mom had been sharing with her her testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel and their conversion. She beg my dad to go to this clinic and give her son a blessing. Deep inside the seed my mother planted had blossomed and she had faith that my father's priesthood can perform miracles. So my mother, my father, myself ( I was 8 at that time) and couple of my siblings and a few other people left for the clinic. The doctor was there downcast, shaking his head indicating that it's too late, my cousin slightly purplish/gray, dead it was pretty obvious. My aunt bawled even more when she saw her son's condition. So my dad went to the table closed his eyes for a few minutes, opened them and laid his hands on his head and pronounced a blessing that he will wake up and live. He was dead, no heartbeat, no life at all and he's purple. A few minutes had passed, all of a sudden my cousin stirred, colors returned. The doctor refused to believe what he's witnessing is possible. Whether or not he's clinically dead , all of us who witnessed saw he was dead and lived. Yes my dad performed a miracle never seen by those people in that room. It must take some serious faith from my dad and his mother to perform this kind of miracle. My aunt was baptized after that and her children. What happened was never discussed outside of that room but it remained in our heart.

[Amonhi]

:-ss :(( :ymparty:

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:
Thank you for sharing!

The Elliaison forum has an area for people to share various special personal experiences, like Miracles, Angel visits, visiting with loved ones who have died, Firsthand witnesses of Christ and more. This area s intended to be a faith promoting collection of experiences like this where people could read share and discuss their own experiences like a great testimony meeting. Your experience is very powerful and would make a great addition in the forum under Miracles.

Would you please share this experience on the Elliaison forum under miracles?
Elliaison Forum main page - HERE
Elliaison Forum Miracles page - HERE

BTW, thank you for resurrecting this thread.

Peace,
Amonhi

[boo]

Amonhi , is it your view that the majority of the members of the Church have in fact received the baptism of fire and the holy ghost ?

[freedomforall]

Miracles are wrought by faith and not by priesthood.

Isn't faith the action, and priesthood the authority?

[freedomforall]

I agree with log. Where do the scriptures teach that priesthood is required to perform miracles of faith, such as raising the dead or healing the sick? These things can be done by anyone with sufficient faith, man or woman.

If the priesthood is required for this, why is this not taught plainly in the scriptures? The scriptures plainly say that faith is required, but there is nary a word about priesthood when it comes to performing these miracles. The only reference I know of is D&C 42, but even it doesn't mention priesthood, only Elders (church office). And Elders are only to minister to those who DO NOT have faith to be healed.

Can someone be baptized by someone by faith only? Or is there authority required?

[log]

Miracles are wrought by faith and not by priesthood.

Isn't faith the action, and priesthood the authority?

No.

[freedomforall]

I agree with log. Where do the scriptures teach that priesthood is required to perform miracles of faith, such as raising the dead or healing the sick? These things can be done by anyone with sufficient faith, man or woman.

If the priesthood is required for this, why is this not taught plainly in the scriptures? The scriptures plainly say that faith is required, but there is nary a word about priesthood when it comes to performing these miracles. The only reference I know of is D&C 42, but even it doesn't mention priesthood, only Elders (church office). And Elders are only to minister to those who DO NOT have faith to be healed.

I'm not really a scriptorian and I know many of you here are much more studied than I am so I will just share my thoughts and line of thinking. While it may not come out and directly say that priesthood is required, I still would submit that it goes hand in hand with faith.
1 Peter 2:5-9 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Where does this holy Priesthood come from? My answer would be it comes from God. This verse tells me that we offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God to be built upon His spiritual house which is His Holy Priesthood or His power....miracles wrought by faith in Him are in essence miracles using this power or in other words His Priesthood. Again, this is according to my own understanding of the Priesthood. Isn't our faith in Him directly connected to HIm, or in other words His power? How do those miracles wrought by faith occur? We must have faith in Him therefore faith in His righteousness and His power. The word faith according to the scriptures means faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true. So what is it that faith is connected to? What are we hoping for that we can't see? Faith is connected to something, it is not just a word that stands alone. I feel true faith is connected to Gods power and His Holy Priesthood.
Miracles can also be wrought by a power other than from God as shown with Moses in Pharoahs court when God turned His rod into a serpent. I'm short on time right now but these are just a few of my thoughts on the subject.

Does this help?

Doctrine and Covenants 46:30-32
30 He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God; wherefore it is done even as he asketh.
31 And again, I say unto you, all things must be done in the name of Christ, whatsoever you do in the Spirit;
32 And ye must give thanks unto God in the Spirit for whatsoever blessing ye are blessed with.

Christ is the authority for which we can perform miracles. Even our having sufficient faith comes via Christ, otherwise, wouldn't we be performing priestcrafts?