Priesthood can raise the dead? Is this true?

[Bgood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQx6rryzwb8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A few Thoughts From Ephraim’s Rescue
Thank You T.C. Christensen

I don’t know the filmmaker T.C. Christensen but after seeing the movie I had to look him up on the Internet. He’s just a few years older than me and has made a lot of movies that I recognized. You might also know a few of them like Forever Strong, 17 Miracles, Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration, The Testaments and a whole bunch of other movies, many for the church.

I have read of people who decided to be baptized after viewing his Joseph Smith movie. I am convinced that T.C. Christensen has done a lot of good with his filmmaking and has been helped by the Lord in doing so. Although my wife said she doesn’t like sad movies, I wanted to write about this one because I was able to identify so well with the main character: Ephraim Hanks.

Played extremely well by Darin Southam in the majority of the movie, I was most touched by the development of the gift of healing as it was depicted in the movie. Each time we witnessed one of these – and there were several – a feeling of reverence came over me that increased. We both cried at the pitiful scenes of the suffering Pioneers, but I’ll always remember those priesthood blessings.

Apparently Ephraim Hanks developed his gift to a degree that he was able to raise from the dead, as did his brother. It reminds me of similar stories of Matthew Cowley having this gift as he served his mission in the South Pacific. I have heard or read many such stories of healing over the years but few who raised individuals back to life. I wonder what kind of faith that would take.

In my patriarchal blessing is the phrase, “You will have the gift of faith and the gift of healing upon you that you might bring comfort and blessings to those who are in need of the Lord’s blessings.” After seeing this movie, I’m not sure I have developed or used this promised gift to the degree the Lord had in mind when he inspired the patriarch to share it. I feel the need to repent and be more faithful in this area. So how is this possible Raising The Dead?

I will refer you to the ensign

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2004/10/miracles?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[katmr]

In my opinion this is a gift we should be seeing more of and is a sign and blessing to those who believe. I forgot what chapter in the Book of Mormon we read in just last week but the people had partaken of 'the heavenly gift.' There was no contention among them, nor was there illness and they raised people from the dead. I know this isn't much help but I also came across a quote where we need to develop power in the priesthood on this side of the veil to be able to have any priesthood power in the resurrection. It is something every person who truly believes should be striving for.

[log]

Miracles are wrought by faith and not by priesthood.

[katmr]

Miracles are wrought by faith and not by priesthood.

My understanding is that Priesthood power is Gods power, therefore one must attain to a certain level of righteousness and and Godliness and faith in order to be able to use it. I believe this is part of the reason that we see so little miracles in the church. Most seem to believe they are just automatically handed that power instead of seeking the godliness needed to attain it.
In my opinion faith goes hand in hand with the Priesthood. What is it that we are I have faith in? I would say that it isn't necessarily the Priesthood itself that we have faith in but in Our Savior and Heavenly Father and this faith is what bring about miracles which is Priesthood power or God's power.

[Jake]

I agree with log. Where do the scriptures teach that priesthood is required to perform miracles of faith, such as raising the dead or healing the sick? These things can be done by anyone with sufficient faith, man or woman.

If the priesthood is required for this, why is this not taught plainly in the scriptures? The scriptures plainly say that faith is required, but there is nary a word about priesthood when it comes to performing these miracles. The only reference I know of is D&C 42, but even it doesn't mention priesthood, only Elders (church office). And Elders are only to minister to those who DO NOT have faith to be healed.

[stillwater]

Miracles are wrought by faith and not by priesthood.

My understanding is that Priesthood power is Gods power, therefore one must attain to a certain level of righteousness and and Godliness and faith in order to be able to use it. I believe this is part of the reason that we see so little miracles in the church. Most seem to believe they are just automatically handed that power instead of seeking the godliness needed to attain it.
In my opinion faith goes hand in hand with the Priesthood. What is it that we are I have faith in? I would say that it isn't necessarily the Priesthood itself that we have faith in but in Our Savior and Heavenly Father and this faith is what bring about miracles which is Priesthood power or God's power.

This perspective doesn't account for the many great prophetesses who have blessed and healed in our day, all without ordination to any office or conferral of any priesthood.

If priesthood ordination is needed to work true miracles, then those healings are satanic. If we don't believe those healings are satanic, then we should do as log implies and stick to the scriptural definition of the priesthood.

Priesthood is about communion with angels, Christ, and the Father. Miracles follow faith, independent of priesthood ordination.

[brrgilbert]

God Bless.

[katmr]

Miracles are wrought by faith and not by priesthood.

My understanding is that Priesthood power is Gods power, therefore one must attain to a certain level of righteousness and and Godliness and faith in order to be able to use it. I believe this is part of the reason that we see so little miracles in the church. Most seem to believe they are just automatically handed that power instead of seeking the godliness needed to attain it.
In my opinion faith goes hand in hand with the Priesthood. What is it that we are I have faith in? I would say that it isn't necessarily the Priesthood itself that we have faith in but in Our Savior and Heavenly Father and this faith is what bring about miracles which is Priesthood power or God's power.

This perspective doesn't account for the many great prophetesses who have blessed and healed in our day, all without ordination to any office or conferral of any priesthood.

If priesthood ordination is needed to work true miracles, then those healings are satanic. If we don't believe those healings are satanic, then we should do as log implies and stick to the scriptural definition of the priesthood.

Priesthood is about communion with angels, Christ, and the Father. Miracles follow faith, independent of priesthood ordination.

I agree with you on this. I never touched on the topic of ordination.

[boo]

In my opinion this is a gift we should be seeing more of and is a sign and blessing to those who believe. I forgot what chapter in the Book of Mormon we read in just last week but the people had partaken of 'the heavenly gift.' There was no contention among them, nor was there illness and they raised people from the dead. I know this isn't much help but I also came across a quote where we need to develop power in the priesthood on this side of the veil to be able to have any priesthood power in the resurrection. It is something every person who truly believes should be striving for.

IV Nephi 3-7. Interesting phrase "heavenly gift' . So far as I can tell it only occurs here,Ether 12:8 ,and Hebrews 6;4. You will note that the penalty for falling away after you have received it is the same that you have for falling away after you have received your BOFHG ( 2 Nephi 31:14). I believe they are one in the same. I also find it interesting that the distinctive commonality among the people referenced in 4 Nephi isn't that they had all things in common .or that there was no poor among them ( this has been true of other societies). It was , in my opinion , that they all had received the heavenly gift. The other characteristics flowed naturally from this gift. If you want to build a Zion society seek to receive your baptism of fire and of the holy ghost. That is the ultimate key.

[stillwater]

IV Nephi 3-7. Interesting phrase "heavenly gift' . So far as I can tell it only occurs here,Ether 12:8 ,and Hebrews 6;4. You will note that the penalty for falling away after you have received it is the same that you have for falling away after you have received your BOFHG ( 2 Nephi 31:14).

Can you show where you are seeing the identical penalties?

The scriptures about the heavenly gift describe those who have communed with God and have their calling and election made sure. "falling away" for them is to become Sons of Perdition, thus it is impossible to be renewed to repentance (Hebrews 6:4). For them, it would have been better not to have been born (DC 76:32)

The consequences for falling away after one's baptism by fire, is simply that it would have been better not to have known Christ (2 Nephi 31:14). This is a much different, and less severe consequence than those who fall away after partaking of the heavenly gift. It's quite comparatively easy to renew these people to repentance, otherwise Alma wouldn't have bothered (Alma 5:26).

I believe the Heavenly Gift is to have communed with the Father and received his promise and testimony.

[katmr]

I agree with log. Where do the scriptures teach that priesthood is required to perform miracles of faith, such as raising the dead or healing the sick? These things can be done by anyone with sufficient faith, man or woman.

If the priesthood is required for this, why is this not taught plainly in the scriptures? The scriptures plainly say that faith is required, but there is nary a word about priesthood when it comes to performing these miracles. The only reference I know of is D&C 42, but even it doesn't mention priesthood, only Elders (church office). And Elders are only to minister to those who DO NOT have faith to be healed.

I'm not really a scriptorian and I know many of you here are much more studied than I am so I will just share my thoughts and line of thinking. While it may not come out and directly say that priesthood is required, I still would submit that it goes hand in hand with faith.
1 Peter 2:5-9 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Where does this holy Priesthood come from? My answer would be it comes from God. This verse tells me that we offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God to be built upon His spiritual house which is His Holy Priesthood or His power....miracles wrought by faith in Him are in essence miracles using this power or in other words His Priesthood. Again, this is according to my own understanding of the Priesthood. Isn't our faith in Him directly connected to HIm, or in other words His power? How do those miracles wrought by faith occur? We must have faith in Him therefore faith in His righteousness and His power. The word faith according to the scriptures means faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true. So what is it that faith is connected to? What are we hoping for that we can't see? Faith is connected to something, it is not just a word that stands alone. I feel true faith is connected to Gods power and His Holy Priesthood.
Miracles can also be wrought by a power other than from God as shown with Moses in Pharoahs court when God turned His rod into a serpent. I'm short on time right now but these are just a few of my thoughts on the subject.

[Jake]

I agree with log. Where do the scriptures teach that priesthood is required to perform miracles of faith, such as raising the dead or healing the sick? These things can be done by anyone with sufficient faith, man or woman.

If the priesthood is required for this, why is this not taught plainly in the scriptures? The scriptures plainly say that faith is required, but there is nary a word about priesthood when it comes to performing these miracles. The only reference I know of is D&C 42, but even it doesn't mention priesthood, only Elders (church office). And Elders are only to minister to those who DO NOT have faith to be healed.

I'm not really a scriptorian and I know many of you here are much more studied than I am so I will just share my thoughts and line of thinking. While it may not come out and directly say that priesthood is required, I still would submit that it goes hand in hand with faith.
1 Peter 2:5-9 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Where does this holy Priesthood come from? My answer would be it comes from God. This verse tells me that we offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God to be built upon His spiritual house which is His Holy Priesthood or His power....miracles wrought by faith in Him are in essence miracles using this power or in other words His Priesthood. Again, this is according to my own understanding of the Priesthood. Isn't our faith in Him directly connected to HIm, or in other words His power? How do those miracles wrought by faith occur? We must have faith in Him therefore faith in His righteousness and His power. The word faith according to the scriptures means faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true. So what is it that faith is connected to? What are we hoping for that we can't see? Faith is connected to something, it is not just a word that stands alone. I feel true faith is connected to Gods power and His Holy Priesthood.
Miracles can also be wrought by a power other than from God as shown with Moses in Pharoahs court when God turned His rod into a serpent. I'm short on time right now but these are just a few of my thoughts on the subject.

The reason I point out the scriptural references is to highlight the discrepancy between what the scriptures teach about priesthood and what the church teaches about priesthood. Isn't it curious at all to other people why the church places so much emphasis on priesthood authority, and yet the Book of Mormon is almost completely silent about it? Priesthood is a measure of our connectedness to God, not a measure of power or authority. That's why women wear the robes of the priesthood in the temple. They have as much ability to connect to God as men do. The duty to officiate in ordinances is left to men, but priesthood, the ability to connect with heaven, is for everyone, for God is no respecter of persons.

This is why it is important to make a distinction between priesthood and faith. Priesthood OFFICE has nothing to do with the power to raise the dead. A person who has never heard of the Mormon church can have priesthood and raise the dead. Office means nothing. Faith in God means everything.

[log]

The consequences for falling away after one's baptism by fire, is simply that it would have been better not to have known Christ (2 Nephi 31:14). This is a much different, and less severe consequence than those who fall away after partaking of the heavenly gift. It's quite comparatively easy to renew these people to repentance, otherwise Alma wouldn't have bothered (Alma 5:26).

Those who never knew Christ get the Telestial (D&C 76:101, D&C 39:18, D&C 132:22-23[they're all relevant, trust me]); therefore, those who receive the BFGH and deny Christ are cast out. They are sons of perdition.

Jacob 6:8
8 Behold, will ye reject these words? Will ye reject the words of the prophets; and will ye reject all the words which have been spoken concerning Christ, after so many have spoken concerning him; and deny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption, which hath been laid for you?

Alma 39:6
6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable....

There are things unstated in the scriptures, purposefully, and things which can only be known by experience, as to how all these things hang together.

[Jake]

The consequences for falling away after one's baptism by fire, is simply that it would have been better not to have known Christ (2 Nephi 31:14). This is a much different, and less severe consequence than those who fall away after partaking of the heavenly gift. It's quite comparatively easy to renew these people to repentance, otherwise Alma wouldn't have bothered (Alma 5:26).

Those who never knew Christ get the Telestial (D&C 76:101, D&C 39:18, D&C 132:22-23[they're all relevant, trust me]); therefore, those who receive the BFGH and deny Christ are cast out. They are sons of perdition.

Jacob 6:8
8 Behold, will ye reject these words? Will ye reject the words of the prophets; and will ye reject all the words which have been spoken concerning Christ, after so many have spoken concerning him; and deny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption, which hath been laid for you?

Alma 39:6
6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable....

There are things unstated in the scriptures, purposefully, and things which can only be known by experience, as to how all these things hang together.

I disagree that turning away from the BFHG is the same as becoming a son of perdition. D&C 84:41 says that whoever altogether (completely) turns away from the covenant of the Father after he has received it cannot receive forgiveness. The covenant of the Father is to have been promised eternal life in the presence of the Father and the Son. If you receive this and reject it and turn completely away from it, then you cannot receive forgiveness and you become a son of perdition. This is much more than the BFHG. Think of it as it is laid out in the endowment. For those who freak out when anything about the temple is said, you had better turn away because I'm about to blaspheme: The BFHG is represented by the 2nd token. Receiving the covenant of the Father in the presence of the Father and the Son is represented by going through the veil, which is much farther through the ceremony. Turning away from Christ after receiving the BFHG is not good, to be sure. Christ says it would be better for them to have never been born. But that is not the same as becoming a son of perdition. You have to rise to the top (receive the covenant of the Father) to sink to the bottom (become a son of perdition). If you only rise partway (BFHG) then you can't fall as far.

[log]

Let us say that, not only do the scriptures agree with me, as evidenced in my post (Alma 39:6 ought to have clinched it), but your condition does not conflict with mine.

After all, the BFHG is a precondition to entering into the covenant of the Father. Rebelling after either gets you booted.

[Jake]

Let us say that, not only do the scriptures agree with me, as evidenced in my post (Alma 39:6 ought to have clinched it), but your condition does not conflict with mine.

After all, the BFHG is a precondition to entering into the covenant of the Father. Rebelling after either gets you booted.

Hmm, I will have to ponder this. I had not considered that verse. From your other posts and your discussions on other blogs and forums (assuming you are that same Log), you have me beat by a mile as a scriptorian . I have to admit, I find merit in your argument. Thank you.

[Amonhi]

I agree with log. Where do the scriptures teach that priesthood is required to perform miracles of faith, such as raising the dead or healing the sick? These things can be done by anyone with sufficient faith, man or woman.

If the priesthood is required for this, why is this not taught plainly in the scriptures? The scriptures plainly say that faith is required, but there is nary a word about priesthood when it comes to performing these miracles. The only reference I know of is D&C 42, but even it doesn't mention priesthood, only Elders (church office). And Elders are only to minister to those who DO NOT have faith to be healed.

I'm not really a scriptorian and I know many of you here are much more studied than I am so I will just share my thoughts and line of thinking. While it may not come out and directly say that priesthood is required, I still would submit that it goes hand in hand with faith.
1 Peter 2:5-9 Ye also, as lively stones, are bui alt up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Where does this holy Priesthood come from? My answer would be it comes from God. This verse tells me that we offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God to be built upon His spiritual house which is His Holy Priesthood or His power....miracles wrought by faith in Him are in essence miracles using this power or in other words His Priesthood. Again, this is according to my own understanding of the Priesthood. Isn't our faith in Him directly connected to HIm, or in other words His power?

You make a good point. If I understand correctly, the power of God is the priesthood and if a person, by faith, accesses the power of God to perform a miracle, then they have accessed the priesthood. (Do I understand you correctly?)

I would like to make a sub point before adding to this thread... If you are reading the scriptures trying to see how they make your point of view and current beliefs correct, then you do not have "eyes to see" and will not see what they are saying. Many verses will not make sense to you. But, if you read them to see what they are saying and are willing to accept that they may and do say things that do not jive with your current beliefs or even Current Church Doctrine, then you can see what they really say. Once you see what they are really saying, then you can work on determining if what they are saying is true. Until you can do this, it does not matter how much of a scriptorian you are, you will not see the truth... You are more of a Churchorian who is able to find those verses that support your current Churches beliefs... The following verses are an example of this...

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my cname shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." - Mark 16:17-18

24 And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;" - Mormon 9:24

Such miracles are promised to the believers regardless of whether they have Church believes the person has the priesthood, (Aaronic/Melchizedek).

Joseph Smith taught this,

“No matter who believeth, these signs, such as healing the sick, casting our devils, etc., should follow all that believe, whether male or female. He asked the Society if they could not see by this sweeping promise, that wherein they are ordained, if it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority, which is conferred on them; and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let everything roll on.” –TPJS, Section Four 1839-42, p.224

He also said,

“Respecting females administering for the healing of the sick he further remarked, there could be no evil in it, if God gave His sanction by healing; that there could be no more sin in any female laying hands on and praying for the sick, than in wetting the face with water; it is no sin for anybody to administer that has faith, or if the sick have faith to be healed by their administration.” –TPJS, Section Four 1839-42, p.224

There are many stories in the early church of women doing just that. But what of non-members? People who are not even baptized and given the holy ghost according to our churches teachings? Can they also perform miracles by faith in Jesus name?

YES!!!! And they do. I know a number of people from other religions who have spoken in tongues, healed the sick, cast out devils, entertained angels, etc... Even in scripture we see that following after the church is not a requirement for such miracles. As odd as it sounds, there were some believers in Christ that did not follow after Jesus and his apostles... And these believers who were not members of the church were also performing miracles.

38 ¶And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." - Mark 9:38-41

Christ not only says that we should not forbid those who "followeth not us" Mormons from performing miracles by faith, but he says that the do indeed do miracles in his name and "are on our part".

And you don't even have to be Celestial material to do this stuff...

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, Christ says that MANY will come to him and say, but we have cast out devils in your name and prophesied in your name and done many miracles, etc. And Christ doesn't argue that, in fact he expects it because he knows they are doing miracles in his name. But they are not doing good because they are not good people. Bad people pray too. Bad people go to church too. Bad people give gifts just as good people do. And Bad people even do miracles in the name of Christ just like good people do. But you can tell a bad person from a good person by their fruits. (Hint, fruits are not actions like many think. See Moro. 7)

How do those miracles wrought by faith occur? We must have faith in Him therefore faith in His righteousness and His power. The word faith according to the scriptures means faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true. So what is it that faith is connected to? What are we hoping for that we can't see? Faith is connected to something, it is not just a word that stands alone. I feel true faith is connected to Gods power and His Holy Priesthood.

I wish Elliaison would make their book available again, "The Unspeakable Gift of the Holy Ghost - The Voice and Power of God". It explains how to do miracles. How to speak as if YOU were God and cause the mountains to move, the rain to stop or start, and to use the sealing power like Elijah. I know from firsthand experience that we can do all these miracles and more.

It is important to hang out with people who believe in doing miracles and encourage it. That is what the church is for, a support group of people who believe and are doing miracles and encouraging and teaching others how to do them. (Not shutting them down or telling you that only certain people can do them or giving you excuses why you can't/shouldn't, etc.) This is a church of Miracles!

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made." - Moro. 7:29

These are pretty powerful and tough words!!! Essentially, if you are not being ministered to by angels, if you do not have the POWER of the Holy Ghost, (not just the presence or the gift, but the POWER), if you do not have faith to wrought miracles, it is because of unbelief. AND salvation comes by belief/faith which means that if you do not have faith enough to experience these things, then you do not have faith enough to be saved and your state is awful!!! It is awful because you are living as if the was no redemption made, as if the atonement of Christ hadn't happened. You remain in your fallen state. :-SS

[Amonhi]

The reason I point out the scriptural refernces is to highlight the discrepancy between what the scriptures teach about priesthood and what the church teaches about priesthood. Isn't it curious at all to other people why the church places so much emphasis on priesthood authority, and yet the Book of Mormon is almost completely silent about it?

Yeah, I was shocked when I realized that the BoM people had the law of Moses and the Aaronic Priesthood. Do did the people in the Old testiment from the time of Moses to Christ. (Except those who received the Higher Priesthood directly from God and not through the lines of Authority like Elijah, Elisha, 3rd Nephi and of course, my favorite Esaias. God still gives his priesthood directly to men by the way, He hasn't changed.)

You could also argue that if you do not get the priesthood from God, then you don't really have it at all. The church gives authority and power to act for it, within the organization of the church. And many people have this authority to act in positions and they have power over those positions, but they may not have power from God to do anything sanctioned by God. Like the people who lie to get into the temple do not get endowed with power from on high. or the bishop who is having an affair have power to act in the church and in his calling but does not have power in heaven. Or the Priesthood holder who does not have the spirit... What blessing can he give?

Priesthood is a measure of our connectedness to God, not a measure of power or authority.

Because the term priesthood is used to mean the church authority, it can be hard to see and understand the difference between the Church authority priesthood and God's authority/Priesthood power to to perform miracles.

That's why women wear the robes of the priesthood in the temple. They have as much ability to connect to God as men do. The duty to officiate in ordinances is left to men, but priesthood, the ability to connect with heaven, is for everyone, for God is no respecter of persons.

The following is an excerpt from somethign one of my friends, Seeker from Elliaison.org/forum wrote:

Women receive the Priesthood when they are made "Officiators of the Priesthood" in the endowment. Men receive a greater endowment of the Priesthood in the same way. Through the Endowment we are prepared in every way “to officiate in the ordinances” of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods.

For women, that is their ordination and they are then qualified to be called as Temple Ordinance workers who perform priesthood ordinances saying, "Having authority, I..."

“Officiate” is a very important word as it denotes the authorized leader. The following definitions are taken from dictionary.com:

verb (used without object)

1. to perform the office of a member of the clergy, as at a divine service.
2. to perform the duties or function of some office or position.
   verb (used with object)
3. to serve as the priest or minister of (a divine service, religious ceremony, etc.).
4. to perform, carry out, or fulfill (an official duty or function).

But more importantly is how the Lord uses the term officiate. Consider the following scriptures:

“8 The Melchizedek Priesthood holds the right of presidency, and has power and authority over all the offices in the church in all ages of the world, to administer in spiritual things.
9 The Presidency of the High Priesthood, after the order of Melchizedek, have a right to officiate in all the offices in the church.
10 High priests after the order of the Melchizedek Priesthood have a right to officiate in their own standing, under the direction of the presidency, in administering spiritual things, and also in the office of an elder, priest (of the Levitical order), teacher, deacon, and member.
11 An elder has a right to officiate in his stead when the high priest is not present.
12 The high priest and elder are to administer in spiritual things, agreeable to the covenants and commandments of the church; and they have a right to officiate in all these offices of the church when there are no higher authorities present.” – D&C 107:8-12

According to the Lord’s use of the word Officiate, we see that it means to actually take action in a calling such as bishop or to actually perform an ordinance backed by the authority the priesthood.

Through the endowment, we are prepared to officiate in the ordinances of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods.

An Officiator in the Melchizedek Priesthood is greater than an Elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood. Men must be Elders in the Melchizedek Priesthood before receiving their endowment. Men do not go to the temple to be endowed with less power than they already have.

It is common knowledge in the church that a Priesthood holder can perform all the functions, duties and ordinances of their own rank or level in the Priesthood as well as all the functions, duties and ordinances of lesser ranks or levels of the Priesthood. For example, an Elder of the Melchizedek priesthood can perform all the functions and duties of any rank in the Aaronic Priesthood.

What amazed me about his talk is that Elder Ballard publicly pointed out that Women ARE given the Priesthood in the Endowment, that they ARE OFFICIATORS and HAVE all the power that comes with it.

He adds that they do not hold the authority which is tied to the keys which are only held by some few men that currently lead the church in their respective capacities. But I would add that neither do I. Most men don’t hold the keys or serve in positions that hold keys. A Bishop holds keys for the ward while the all of the Elders and high priests in the ward do not. Keys are given when we are called to a position that requires them and taken when we are released. But the power of the priesthood and the fact that you hold the priesthood remains regardless of keys. I myself do not hold any keys of authority in the church at present, but I do have the priesthood and all the power that comes with it.

Elder Ballard does not mention that women perform ordinances in the temple with this priesthood power that they hold, but that is clear if you know who performs the Melchizedek priesthood ordinances of the temple for women, (hint: It isn't men).

Listen to one of the points Elder Ballard made in his talk... the talk is called "Let Us Think Straight" (He has given other talks with the same name and similar introduction, so if you looked it up be aware that you have to find the one on that date given for BYU Education Week.) The entire talk is addressing the concerns of the growing movement toward feminine equality in the church lead by groups like ordainwomen.org...

With that background, here is a quote from his talk:

"When men and women go to the temple, they are both endowed with the same power, which by definition is priesthood power. While the authority of the priesthood is directed through priesthood keys, and priesthood keys are held only by worthy men, access to the power and the blessings of the priesthood is available to all of God’s children.

As President Joseph Fielding Smith explained:
“The blessings of the priesthood are not confined to men alone. These blessings are also poured out upon . . . all the faithful women of the Church. . . . The Lord offers to his daughters every spiritual gift and blessing that can be obtained by his sons.” - [“Magnifying Our Callings in the Priesthood,” Improvement Era, June 1970, 66]

Those who have entered the waters of baptism and subsequently received their endowment in the house of the Lord are eligible for rich and wonderful blessings. The endowment is literally a gift of power. All who enter the house of the Lord officiate in the ordinances of the priesthood. This applies to men and women alike. " - Elder Ballard, BYU Education Week, "Let Us Think Straight" - 8/20/2013

This should not be a big surprise because we know that women can become Priestesses throughout the eternities. It just brings that concept to the here and now.

This is why it is important to make a distinction between priesthood and faith. Priesthood OFFICE has nothing to do with the power to raise the dead. A person who has never heard of the Mormon church can have priesthood and raise the dead. Office means nothing. Faith in God means everything.

Yeah, we are really saying the same things... and the endowment as detailed above wherein women receive the priesthood Office of Officiator equally with men simply means that the church lets them perform ordinances in the Temple on other women. they don't get to be bishops or Priestesses who bless or pass the sacrament or even Prophetesses like were had anciently. But that is JUST church structure and protocol which may change with a new revelation, (Like Blacks and the Priesthood). IN reality, like you said, you don't even have to be a member of the church to have God's priesthood power through faith.

I love how open this forum is to considering the truths not yet accepted by the mainstream church and the Current Church Doctrines which have not yet caught up with the truths which have been revealed in the scriptures.

Peace and Joy,
Amonhi

[log]

Yeah, I was shocked when I realized that the BoM people had the law of Moses and the Aaronic Priesthood.

Then you have realized more than I; I have not realized they had any Levites among them; whence cometh their Aaronic priesthood?

[embryopocket]

I just found this: http://www.believeallthings.com/2777/pr ... -nephites/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It expresses my beliefs on the subject of priesthood among the Nephites.

[Amonhi]

I know this is a off topic, but wanted to add my 2 cents...

The consequences for falling away after one's baptism by fire, is simply that it would have been better not to have known Christ (2 Nephi 31:14). This is a much different, and less severe consequence than those who fall away after partaking of the heavenly gift. It's quite comparatively easy to renew these people to repentance, otherwise Alma wouldn't have bothered (Alma 5:26).

I agree with you. The Telestial is a kingdom who do not KNOW Christ, but they know about him and believe some of what he has to say as well as some of the words of other prophets.

These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. - D&C 76:100-101

They have accepted very little and so are accountable to very little. But they have not received a testimony of Christ which would qualify them for the higher Terrestrial Kingdom. Testimony of Christ comes from the Holy Ghost and is directly related to the Baptism of Fire. It is the gate by which we enter. The fire is the cleansing agent by which we are cleaned of our sins or impurities. The Telestial are judged by Works, but the Terrestrial are not, they are covered by the atonement while they progress toward the Celestial Glory.(See D&C 76) The Terrestrial are on the path but have not completed that path and received a crown, which happens at C&E, and comes by knowing God and Christ who he sent. A person who is baptized with Fire and the Holy Ghost does not necessarily know God and qualify for the CK. They believe or have reason to believe and are working on faith, not knowledge. They do not have the knowledge to become Sons of Perdition because they would have to know Christ and God and qualify for the CK having received their C&E and have the Second Comforter and then say, "Ok, I have experienced both sides now and I kinda like the dark side better...so you have fun with your harps and singing and stuff and I am outta here..."

Those who never knew Christ get the Telestial (D&C 76:101, D&C 39:18, D&C 132:22-23[they're all relevant, trust me]); therefore, those who receive the BFGH and deny Christ are cast out. They are sons of perdition.

Alma 39:6
6 For behold, if ye deny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is unpardonable....

There are partial gifts and fullness of gifts. If a person were to have experienced the Holy Ghost but not received a fullness of it then they cannot "Knowingly deny it". If they are not certain that they have been inspired, then they cannot become a Son of Perdition. You have to KNOW as in have knowledge, not belief or reason to believe. Not faith and even have some limited experience. You have to know what you are rejecting and that you are rejecting it. This type of knowledge is what Cain had when he was speaking to God, and knew he was speaking to God and God was speaking back and there was no miscommunication and yet he chose the dark rather than the light. This is the blessing of the veil. We are not able to sin against that which we do not know. We can transgress against what we believe to be true without being held accountable to knowledge we do not have.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.
19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression? - Alma 32:18-19

Imagine that you had experienced the Terrestrial kingdom and then had turned from it to return to the Telestial kingdom. It would be better for you to not have known the Terrestrial kingdom. Like a person who is fully functional who gets into a car wreck and looses his arms and legs, and had no hope of regaining them, (didn't believe in a resurrection). He would remember all the things he had lost and miss them. This man compared with a man who was born without arms and legs and never knew the joy of running.

Then you have the Sons of Perdition who Knew what the CK has to offer and they realize and understand that being a God is not what they though and were after, (having to deal with agency, persuasion and the other principles of truth that prevent you from getting your way all the time...), then they decide they don't want it, there is no regret or sorrow for having lost something they once had. They flat out turn their nose up at it. No regrets. Like Cain, who chose and his only regret was that he feared people would kill him.

Peace,
Amonhi

[log]

There are partial gifts and fullness of gifts. If a person were to have experienced the Holy Ghost but not received a fullness of it then they cannot "Knowingly deny it". If they are not certain that they have been inspired, then they cannot become a Son of Perdition.

That is correct. To receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is to receive the fullness thereof.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

And how much of the Spirit did Christ have?

JST John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth him not the Spirit by measure, for he dwelleth in him, even the fulness.

Those who have been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost have received of the Spirit of God unto the fullness, like unto Christ, according to the promises of the Father. That is how we take upon us the name of Christ.

Alma 34:38
38 [C]ontend no more against the Holy Ghost, but ... receive it, and take upon you the name of Christ.

Thus we become the Lord's anointed, for the anointing of God is to receive the anointing of the spirit.

Acts 10:38
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

And so on and so forth (no, seriously, it occupies most of the doctrinally significant portions of the scriptures, and I can go on).

There is no middle ground, just as with baptism by water: either one has, or one has not, been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost.

[Dannyk]

It appears as though we are no longer discussing the OP (and I'm not sure that we ever were after the 2nd or 3rd post ;) ).

But, I remember reading some very interesting things about brother Iohanni Wolfgram, who was referred to as a great Tongan High Priest, known for working miracles, dreaming dreams, and seeing visions. He raised from the dead his own daughter, and at least one other man.

His family has documented some of his history, which you can find if you search the internet.

[dannician]

LONG POST AHEAD >>>

First, I am not an expert, just wanted to share.

Lots of tangents from the OP's orignial pondering ... "So how is this possible Raising The Dead?" It was also mentioned that he has been promissed the gift of healing but does not feel that he has developed it fully. I say DEVELOP IT! Keep working at it and draw close to the Lord and it will come. Here is something interesting from Lorenzo Snow...

When our friends are stricken down by sickness and disease, or when our little ones are in the agonies of pain and death, there should be Elders in our midst who have educated themselves so thoroughly in developing the gifts of the Spirit within them, and in whom the Saints have such perfect confidence, that they would always be sought after instead of doctors. There are men among us who possess the gift of healing, and might have great faith; but they do not exercise the gift, they do not live for it, and, therefore, do not have the power to use it so effectually as they might. There are men in this Church who are as good in their hearts and feelings as men ever were, but lack faith and energy, and do not obtain really what it is their privilege to receive. If their faith, their energy and determination were equal to their good feelings and desires, their honesty and goodness, they would indeed be mighty men in Israel; and sickness and disease and the power of the evil one would flee before them as chaff before the wind. Yet, we say we are a good people and that we are not only holding our own but making great advances in righteousness before God; and no doubt, we are. But I wish to impress upon you, my brethren and sisters that there are Elders among us endowed with Spiritual gifts that may be brought into exercise through the aid of the Holy Ghost. The gifts of the Gospel must be cultivated by diligence and perseverance. The ancient Prophets when desiring some peculiar blessing, or important knowledge, revelation or vision, would sometimes fast and pray for days and even weeks for that purpose.

That can be found here ... http://jod.mrm.org/23/189" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is alot to ponder about in that quote.

Also there is the injunction from Moroni 10:8 (The last teaching to be included by Moroni in the BofM)

And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God

One of these gifts is healing...

I wonder? Do we actively seek the gifts of God, even the gift of healing, through righteousness, fasting, prayer and service?

Or are we placing our faith in the "arm of the flesh"

Cursed is he that putteth his atrust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the bprecepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Now I am not condemning anyone who seeks medical help. But I do feel that, as a peoplem, we could stand to step up a level in weather we seek the Gifts of God enough? Do we have enough faith and the power that comes from that kind of faith? Do we put the Lord and his system first?

I know I could stand to improve...

There is another aspect to seeking and receiving the gifts of God. What do you want them for? What is your intent?

Mormon wrote it this way ...

Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God

Mormon 9:28

I personally believe that, as the OP indicated, I am living beneath my privileges and so are most of those I live and associate with.

Now for a tangent of my own ... It is my belief that in the world we live in and will yet live in our ability to secure the Gifts of God and Priesthood Power (not just authority) will be an everyday need. We will truly need the Lord every hour!

I want to be better!

[Amonhi]

Yeah, I was shocked when I realized that the BoM people had the law of Moses and the Aaronic Priesthood.

Then you have realized more than I; I have not realized they had any Levites among them; whence cometh their Aaronic priesthood?

You are right, Lehi was not a Levite. Levites were not the ONLY priesthood holders on the earth. The were the holders of the Priesthood among the children of Israel who under Moses were not capable of getting past their Slave mentality which they learned in Egypt. There are and have been many other lines of priesthood. Moses him self received the Melchizedek priesthood from one of these unconventional lines of authority, Jethro the Priest of Midian who was a descendant of Abraham's firstborn son Ishmael. Jethro is also revered as a prophet in the Islamic History. Jethro's line of priesthood came down a long line of people until that line came to Esaias who "received it under the hand of God." That line of the Melchizedek priesthood continued alone after Moses died and the children of Israel, specifically the descendants of Aaron who were a portion who were a portion of the Levite tribe had the Aaronic Priesthood which was slightly greater than the Levitical Priesthood as held by all the Levites. (Levitical priesthood was much like a Teacher under the Aaronic priesthood, which could perform the functions similar to our Teachers and Deacons today. But they could not perform the functions that our Aaronic priesthood Priests of today can do.) Back to topic...

Lehi was not a Levite, your right. But God has started other lines of priesthood in order to accomplish his purposes. We, through the bible, have one of the lines of authority which specifically is the line coming from Abraham through Moses to Christ.

The line that Came to Jethro is discussed in the D&C and part of it is recorded in the Islamic scriptures.

The Melchizedek priesthood Line of Shem, son of Noah eventually extended down through Asia is was active and prominent in throughout the history of China and Tibet for very many years. Some say that some of the Tibetans still have the ancient knowledge and priesthood far beyond what we Mormons are ready to accept today.

There have been many lines throughout history. This is how God works. There are many lines today and upgrades to lines which are not recognized by the LDS church, but which are important lines recognized, accepted and led by God. These lines of course do not how keys over the LDS church organization and have no business leading or acting in the church except as permitted and recognized by the church protocols and procedures.

The Book of Mormon records a line that starts with Lehi and ends with Moroni. It also records a separate line in the Book of Ether as well as a few upgraded lines like that of 3rd Nephi who received the sealing power directly from God and the Melchizedek priesthood that was given by Christ to the 12 disciples who passed it around to others.

You remember the brass plates? One of the main reasons for getting them was to have the law of Moses so that it could be administered...

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.
15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law.
16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass.
17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.
18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

Well, the Law of Moses included the Ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood which the Nephites did perform and keep as directed by God until Christ came and ended it.

2 Nephi 25:30- 30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses.

Mosiah 13:30 - 30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

4 Nephi 1:12 - 12 And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.

While they had power to perform the ordinances of the Aaronic priesthood including those in the law of Moses such as Baptism, they did not have authority to give the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands until Christ came. From 1st Nephi to 3rd Nephi 18 the Holy Ghost was received directly from God, not by the laying on of hands.

2 Nephi 31:12 - 12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

It seems clear to me that they did have the Aaronic Priesthood and did not have the Melchizedek Priesthood until Christ gave it to them personally. God clearly accepts there Aaronic Priesthood ordinances which in itself validates His acceptance of their authority.

My assumption is that Lehi received the priesthood in one of his many visions, revelations or angel experiences which may or may not be detailed in the Book of Lehi.