LDS Freedom Forum

1. throughout the scriptures when the church goes astray the "people" rebel against the prophets and or apostles. The "church" is usually a term describing the people, not the teachings. The teachings are the Gospel. No where in the scriptures do the people (church people) band together to rescue the prophets from destruction or apostasy. On the other hand, many times the prophets rescue the people (church). Obviously I am aware that individuals like Judas, and in JS times some of the apostles left the Church , etc. But when apostasy has occurred or the Church has disassembled it is because of the rejection of the prophets, hence, rejection of Christ's Gospel, not the prophets rejecting Christ or the people.

2. There exists Latter-Day Saints that follow the Prophets but believe that ultimately we need to have a personal relationship with God and Christ. The prophets and apostles make mistakes like me. If they make a mistake I don't care, that's between them and God. This includes any mistakes they may make leading the Church and not just in their personal lives. I trust Christ who leads this Church that if the prophets are not doing what He wants He will take care of it. I don't think Christ wants me to worry about the mistakes the Church leaders make, but wants me to gain a witness from the HG of the wonderful things He has inspired and revealed to the prophets. It is important to have a personal relationship with Christ. It is important to learn to rely on guidance from the HG. But there are some things that Christ may want me to do that He will reveal to the Prophets first. After all, that's one of the whole points of a prophet. Prophets receive revelations for the church (people), it's abundant in the scriptures.

3. Always in the scriptures when the people (church) talk about the prophets and point out their faults it is called murmurings, stiffnecked and rebellion.

4. If the church is under condemnation it is not the prophets, it is the rest of the people.

"I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God." (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff [Bookcraft, 1969], pp. 212–13.)

This makes sense. Why would it not be this way?

“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing;"
It will go forth boldly, nobly and independent. That's the good news!!!

Be of good cheer! Malls and removing The Lectures on Faith, who cares. Christ is in charge. Let Him govern.

Have Faith in Christ He has said this is the Fullness of Times.

Waking up to our awful situation is not understanding or realizing the prophets are astray. WE, the church people may be astray as a church body. We talk too much about each other and leaders. We watch too much TV and have idle behaviors. We rationalize our actions and numb ourselves to immorality and violence. We don't give enough to the poor or take care of each other. We are puffed up in our pride.

We are of the world...

"The pattern divine allows for no errors, no conflicts, no ambitions, no ulterior motives. The Lord has reserved for himself the calling of his leaders over his church. It is a study of great interest and importance.
One of the early apostles spoke of Joseph Smith:
“That authority was not conferred upon him when he first saw angels and had some of the gifts … it required the laying on of the hands of someone who had the authority of the Holy Priesthood.”
Significant to us is the fact that there has never been one minute since April 6, 1830, 142 years ago, that the Church has been without divine leadership. No deceased President has ever taken the keys and authorities into the spirit world away from the Church on the earth.
The second that the spirit left the body of President Joseph Fielding Smith on July 2, President Harold B. Lee in that same second as president of the twelve apostles rightfully assumed command and was the true and recognized leader, having been foreordained as said by Joseph Smith.
President George Q. Cannon speaks of the foreordination:
“It is a remarkable fact that Joseph Smith had gifts before he was ordained. He was a Seer, for he translated before he was ordained; he was a Prophet, for he predicted a great many things before he was ordained … ; he was a Revelator, for God gave unto him revelations before the Church was organized. He, therefore, was a Prophet, Seer and Revelator before he was ordained in the flesh.” (Gospel Truth, p. 253.)
The Quorum of the Twelve on July 7, 1972, held all these gifts. And President Harold B. Lee has held them and the keys and the fullness of the priesthood since April 10, 1941, reaffirmed by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles on July 7 of this year.
Full provision has been made by our Lord for changes. Today there are fourteen apostles holding the keys in suspension, the twelve and the two counselors to the President, to be brought into use if and when circumstances allow, all ordained to leadership in their turn as they move forward in seniority.
There have been some eighty apostles so endowed since Joseph Smith, though only eleven have occupied the place of the President of the Church, death having intervened; and since the death of his servants is in the power and control of the Lord, he permits to come to the first place only the one who is destined to take that leadership. Death and life become the controlling factors. Each new apostle in turn is chosen by the Lord and revealed to the then living prophet who ordains him.
The matter of seniority is basic in the first quorums of the Church. All the apostles understand this perfectly, and all well-trained members of the Church are conversant with this perfect succession program.
Joseph Smith bestowed upon the twelve apostles all the keys and authority and power that he himself possessed and that he had received from the Lord. He gave unto them every endowment, every washing and anointing, and administered unto them the sealing ordinances.
An important rule was given to us by the Prophet Joseph with which you are probably familiar: “I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity. That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is on the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 156–57.)
President Cannon warned again: “If any of you have indulged in the spirit of murmuring and fault-finding and have allowed your tongues to give utterance to thoughts and words that were wrong and not in accordance with the spirit of the Gospel, … you ought to repent of it with all your hearts and get down into the depths of humility and implore Him for the forgiveness of that sin—for it is a most deadly sin.
“The men who hold the Priesthood are but mortal men: they are fallible men. … [No one knows that better than they themselves.] No human being that ever trod this earth was free from sin, excepting the Son of God. …”
This is true concerning all of the brethren, I am sure.
“Nevertheless, God has chosen these men. He has singled them out, … but He has selected them, and He has placed upon them the authority of the Holy Priesthood, and they have become His representatives in the earth. He places them as shepherds over the flock of Christ, and as watchmen upon the walls of Zion. And He holds them to a strict accountability … for the authority which He has given to them, and in the day of the Lord Jesus they will have to stand and be judged for the manner in which they have exercised this authority. If they have exercised it wrongfully and against the interests of His work and the salvation of His people, woe unto them in the day of the Lord Jesus! He will judge them. …” (Gospel Truth, p. 276.)
This same early apostle tells us that the Lord gives the authority to judge and condemn only to the regularly constituted councils of the Church and not to man generally; “and those who lift their voices … against the authority of the Holy Priesthood … will go down to hell, unless they repent.” (Ibid.)
It was President Wilford Woodruff who, in his closing years, made this statement: “I ask my Heavenly Father to pour out his spirit upon me, as his servant, that in my advanced age, and during the few days I have to spend here in the flesh, I may be led by his inspiration. I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from his oracles of God and from their duty. …” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff [Bookcraft, 1969], pp. 212–13.)
This should give us deep assurance.
One other leader wrote: “Men do not obtain place in this Church because they seek for it. If it were known that a man was ambitious to hold a certain office in the Church, that fact itself would lead to his defeat because his desire would not be granted unto him. This is the case with the officers of this Church. … [They] are responsible to God. God chose and nominated [them], and it is for him to straighten [them] out if [they] do wrong.” (George Q. Cannon, in Deseret Weekly, May 21, 1898, p. 708.)
May the Lord bless our new President and his counselors and fully sustain them. May we the people uphold his hands and totally sustain President Harold B. Lee, whom I know to be the Lord’s prophet on this earth. I bear testimony that God, whose voice was heard on the Jordan River, among the Nephites, in the grove in New York, is our Heavenly Father; and the one to whom he alluded when he said, “This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” is our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, the head of the Church. I bear testimony too that President Lee is a prophet of God, and if we will follow him, we will make great headway in the kingdom. I bear this testimony to you in all fervor and sincerity and in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
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Epistemology wrote:1. throughout the scriptures when the church goes astray the "people" rebel against the prophets and or apostles.

1 Nephi 21:1
1 And again: Hearken, O ye house of Israel, all ye that are broken off and are driven out because of the wickedness of the pastors of my people; yea, all ye that are broken off, that are scattered abroad, who are of my people, O house of Israel. Listen, O isles, unto me, and hearken ye people from far; the Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

But when apostasy has occurred or the Church has disassembled it is because of the rejection of the prophets, hence, rejection of Christ's Gospel, not the prophets rejecting Christ or the people.

How often have the prophets which were rejected come from within the hierarchy of the Church? How often have they come from without?

4. If the church is under condemnation it is not the prophets, it is the rest of the people.

It appears that one might get another idea from the scriptures.

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.

JST Matthew 21
53 And the kingdom of God shall be taken from [the Jews], and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof; (meaning the Gentiles.)

54 Wherefore, on whomsoever this stone shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.

55 And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

56 And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof.

We are identified with the Gentiles. (D&C 109:60) The miserable, wicked men, are those to whom the Lord let his vineyard from among the Gentiles, or, in other words, the leadership.

"I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God." (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff [Bookcraft, 1969], pp. 212–13.)

This makes sense. Why would it not be this way?

Because it never has been this way, ever.

JST, Mark 9:40–48.
Compare Mark 9:43–48
40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.

41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.

43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

Be of good cheer! Malls and removing The Lectures on Faith, who cares. Christ is in charge. Let Him govern.

I have to agree here. Who cares how the Church is governed? The only thing that matters is our own souls and our stewardships.

Waking up to our awful situation is not understanding or realizing the prophets are astray.

I agree with this too.

“Nevertheless, God has chosen these men. He has singled them out, … but He has selected them, and He has placed upon them the authority of the Holy Priesthood, and they have become His representatives in the earth. He places them as shepherds over the flock of Christ, and as watchmen upon the walls of Zion. And He holds them to a strict accountability … for the authority which He has given to them, and in the day of the Lord Jesus they will have to stand and be judged for the manner in which they have exercised this authority. If they have exercised it wrongfully and against the interests of His work and the salvation of His people, woe unto them in the day of the Lord Jesus! He will judge them. …” (Gospel Truth, p. 276.)

Remember, however, lest one venerate men whom one supposes to be more advanced than one, that Christ called Judas; never assume to know why Christ calls whom he calls. If one depends upon prophets, one's mind is darkened. (TPJS 237)

It was President Wilford Woodruff who, in his closing years, made this statement: “I ask my Heavenly Father to pour out his spirit upon me, as his servant, that in my advanced age, and during the few days I have to spend here in the flesh, I may be led by his inspiration. I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from his oracles of God and from their duty. …” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff [Bookcraft, 1969], pp. 212–13.)
This should give us deep assurance.

Except for the scriptures which say the opposite, it would.

D&C 43
1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

So, it was possible, and scriptural provision was made, in case Joseph should apostatize. (Joseph appointed Hyrum as his successor; both Joseph and Hyrum were killed together. The reader can do the math.)

One other leader wrote: “Men do not obtain place in this Church because they seek for it. If it were known that a man was ambitious to hold a certain office in the Church, that fact itself would lead to his defeat because his desire would not be granted unto him. This is the case with the officers of this Church. … [They] are responsible to God. God chose and nominated [them], and it is for him to straighten [them] out if [they] do wrong.” (George Q. Cannon, in Deseret Weekly, May 21, 1898, p. 708.)

And, we have this prophecy of Joseph Smith to Mosiah Hancock, which gives a different picture altogether.

"You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty."
(Mosiah Hancock Journal, pg. 28) A warning to members of the Church.

I guess the ambitious in the Church don't publicize their aims.

log wrote:1 Nephi 21:1
1 And again: Hearken, O ye house of Israel, all ye that are broken off and are driven out because of the wickedness of the pastors of my people; yea, all ye that are broken off, that are scattered abroad, who are of my people, O house of Israel. Listen, O isles, unto me, and hearken ye people from far; the Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

Do you know anything about Israel, do you know that they split after Solomon and went into apostasy, ie they were apostate and separate at this time and their "prophets" were false prophets. The OT uses prophet to mean both prophet and false prophet. You have to read for context. Most of the post solomon prophets use the word prophet to refere to the false prophets of fallen Israel.

This was a warning to apostate and separated Israel, not an authorized Judah.

It appears that one might get another idea from the scriptures.

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.

So just one man possibly, if we were to take your interpretation. Not like say 12 men could try to steady the ark. Just have to watch out for one guy. The rest should be ok.

JST Matthew 21
53 And the kingdom of God shall be taken from [the Jews], and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof; (meaning the Gentiles.)

54 Wherefore, on whomsoever this stone shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.

55 And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

56 And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof.

We are identified with the Gentiles. (D&C 109:60)

But are not gentiles. For example where I live I am surrounded by gentiles so of course would be numbered among them

The miserable, wicked men, are those to whom the Lord let his vineyard to, from among the Gentiles, or, in other words, the leadership.

Ha ha. No. The leaders are not gentiles. Read the bold.

Because it never has been this way, ever.

JST, Mark 9:40–48.
Compare Mark 9:43–48
40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.

41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.

43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

Which prophet led the people astray, to the point where the people were to reject him. "Pluck him out".

Remember, however, lest one venerate men whom one supposes to be more advanced than one, that Christ called Judas; never assume to know why Christ calls whom he calls. If one depends upon prophets, one's mind is darkened. (TPJS 237)

Good point. If one gains your own testimony of the prophet's calling and follows their teachings you are led directly to the Father D&C 84: 35-37.

Except for the scriptures which say the opposite, it would.

D&C 43
1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

So, it was possible, and scriptural provision was made, in case Joseph should apostatize. (Joseph appointed Hyrum as his successor; both Joseph and Hyrum were killed together. The reader can do the math.)

Yes. The math says this is but one possible way for a successor to be chosen. The PSRs remaining were prophets, seers, and revelators, meaning that their calling and keys made them the Kingdom of God on Earth TPJS pg 271 and if a quorom of prophets seers and revelators could not obtain the mind of god on this kind of matter why bother calling them in the first place.

And, we have this prophecy of Joseph Smith to Mosiah Hancock, which gives a different picture altogether.

"You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty."
(Mosiah Hancock Journal, pg. 28) A warning to members of the Church.

I guess the ambitious in the Church don't publicize their aims.

I think the accepted practice on this forum is to reject second hand statements from JS. I stopped doing it because of the complaints.

BTW I think we did see men rise to power to do those things in the time of JS.

God Bless.

That was powerful, brrgilbert. Thanks for sharing.

I also believe that if we would forget about whether the church leaders are perfect or not and just listen to them and read their words as led by the Spirit, that the Lord would touch our hearts through them. We could be edified by them if we exercised faith in them and their words, according to our faith in Christ. As long as we stop focusing on who they are and start focusing on the message, praying for understanding through the Spirit, we will be able to learn what the Lord wants us to learn.

A point that log likes to bring up is the idea of prophets being called from outside the Church. He references the scriptures to make his point. But to make a true comparison, you need to compare apples to apples.

The Church as it exists today had no ancient scripture counterpart until the time of the Christ. Under the law of Moses, there was no official hierarchy to look to as we have today. Their religion was often dictated by the king who may or may not have been righteous. As a result, the Lord often called men to be prophets who were often not known among the people before hand. But when Christ introduced His Gospel, he changed that pattern when he called his twelve apostles and gave them keys to adminster the affairs of the Church. When one was killed it was these same men who chose through inspiration their successor. This same pattern was introduced among the Lehites upon Christ's appearance to them.

It is this same pattern that continues today. We even see in D&C 20:64, 84 the Lord requiring those is the Church to take certificates or letters of recommendations with them when they go to new areas to prove who they are. Gone are the days when an "unknown" can show up on the scene and be expected to be acknowledged as a prophet.

By the by, lest my position be misunderstood, it is simply this.

Leave the leadership alone.

Leave the Church alone.

Mind your own business.

That's why I don't care about City Creek Mall, or the removal of the Lectures on Faith, or blah blah blah etc etc etc etc.

But because trusting in men gets men cursed -

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

JST Mark 9: 44
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

And consequentially men lose the Spirit for doing so, even when the men are true prophets -

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

I say something about it when the topic comes up.

laronius wrote:A point that log likes to bring up is the idea of prophets being called from outside the Church. He references the scriptures to make his point. But to make a true comparison, you need to compare apples to apples.

The Church as it exists today had no ancient scripture counterpart until the time of the Christ.

That is only superficially true, if you go by the precise hierarchical structure of the Church (ie, must have 15 apostles, some evangelists, pastors, whatever). In point of fact, it appears in both its virtues and its vices to be the exact image of the ancient Jews.

As for the rest, well, if you have faith in the righteousness of men, despite the historical and scriptural examples otherwise among even them called directly by Christ, see if it saves you in the end. I have my doubts, personally, that it will.

log wrote: And, we have this prophecy of Joseph Smith to Mosiah Hancock, which gives a different picture altogether.

"You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty."
(Mosiah Hancock Journal, pg. 28) A warning to members of the Church.

I guess the ambitious in the Church don't publicize their aims.

FWIW, Mosiah Hancock was born in 1834. On the other hand, if the LDS church doesn't have ambitious people aspiring to and abusing power, it would be the first organization in the history of the world not to.

log wrote: But because trusting in men gets men cursed -

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

JST Mark 9: 44
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

And consequentially men lose the Spirit for doing so, even when the men are true prophets -

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

See Topical Guide "Prophets, Rejecting of".

I think most important is HOW we follow the prophet. Even if a prophet could not lead us astray, just to think that he can't is dangerous. It makes us lay back, relax and rely upon another man. It keeps us from becoming prophets ourselve.

In Nephi 28:14,31 we learn..

... they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ, nevertheless, they ARE LED, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of me, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost

The Lord clearely says, yes, there may be precepts given THROUGH man, and then it is okay to follow them.. But he also clearly curses it to trust ANY other man ( including prophets ), or make flesh his arm. I think this is were many fail, they make themselves dependent upon the prophet. If he would loose his testimony, they would loose it too.. But if they do not trust on man, but in the Lord alone they will stand upon the Rock, Jesus Christ, and would not stumble even if the prophet went astray.

The Lord has warned us not to believe that "all all is well in Zion".... becaus it is not. It is true that we need to look at ourselves and work on our relationship with Chrsit.

Neither a true, nor a false prophet should keep us from that progression. If it does, it's our failure and we can't blame anothe man for it.

Something that also should make us think is that God clearely prophesied that he would use the "weak and the strange" to confound the wise.. He often may call people as prophets which we would not recognize at first..

log wrote:By the by, lest my position be misunderstood, it is simply this.

Leave the leadership alone.

Leave the Church alone.

Mind your own business.

That's why I don't care about City Creek Mall, or the removal of the Lectures on Faith, or blah blah blah etc etc etc etc.

But because trusting in men gets men cursed -

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

JST Mark 9: 44
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

And consequentially men lose the Spirit for doing so, even when the men are true prophets -

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

I say something about it when the topic comes up.

Im not sure if we agree on all points necessarily, but this post echoes my stance. I will add, it seems when someone expresses the desire to follow the prophet (like me) you assume I mean blind obedience to their every whim. Of course not. But yes, the prophet is there for a reason, a spiritual leader and the one Christ REVEALS things to, for us to know.

Are there Church members that don't think for themselves, yes.

The modern day prophets including JS have given us a great reason to trust the system. The talk I posted here by SWK has great insight and statements about the fact that Christ is leading, be assured, the system Christ set up works.

There may come a day when society breaks down and communication with the prophets is severed and the members may have to rely totally on the Spirit to guide them to Zion, or wherever God wants them to go. So yes, we must have this intonation with the HG.

log wrote:

Epistemology wrote:1. throughout the scriptures when the church goes astray the "people" rebel against the prophets and or apostles.

1 Nephi 21:1
1 And again: Hearken, O ye house of Israel, all ye that are broken off and are driven out because of the wickedness of the pastors of my people; yea, all ye that are broken off, that are scattered abroad, who are of my people, O house of Israel. Listen, O isles, unto me, and hearken ye people from far; the Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

But when apostasy has occurred or the Church has disassembled it is because of the rejection of the prophets, hence, rejection of Christ's Gospel, not the prophets rejecting Christ or the people.

How often have the prophets which were rejected come from within the hierarchy of the Church? How often have they come from without?

4. If the church is under condemnation it is not the prophets, it is the rest of the people.

It appears that one might get another idea from the scriptures.

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.

JST Matthew 21
53 And the kingdom of God shall be taken from [the Jews], and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof; (meaning the Gentiles.)

54 Wherefore, on whomsoever this stone shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.

55 And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

56 And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof.

We are identified with the Gentiles. (D&C 109:60) The miserable, wicked men, are those to whom the Lord let his vineyard from among the Gentiles, or, in other words, the leadership.

"I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God." (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff [Bookcraft, 1969], pp. 212–13.)

This makes sense. Why would it not be this way?

Because it never has been this way, ever.

JST, Mark 9:40–48.
Compare Mark 9:43–48
40 Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell.

41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.

43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

48 For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not, and where the fire is not quenched.

Be of good cheer! Malls and removing The Lectures on Faith, who cares. Christ is in charge. Let Him govern.

I have to agree here. Who cares how the Church is governed? The only thing that matters is our own souls and our stewardships.

Waking up to our awful situation is not understanding or realizing the prophets are astray.

I agree with this too.

“Nevertheless, God has chosen these men. He has singled them out, … but He has selected them, and He has placed upon them the authority of the Holy Priesthood, and they have become His representatives in the earth. He places them as shepherds over the flock of Christ, and as watchmen upon the walls of Zion. And He holds them to a strict accountability … for the authority which He has given to them, and in the day of the Lord Jesus they will have to stand and be judged for the manner in which they have exercised this authority. If they have exercised it wrongfully and against the interests of His work and the salvation of His people, woe unto them in the day of the Lord Jesus! He will judge them. …” (Gospel Truth, p. 276.)

Remember, however, lest one venerate men whom one supposes to be more advanced than one, that Christ called Judas; never assume to know why Christ calls whom he calls. If one depends upon prophets, one's mind is darkened. (TPJS 237)

It was President Wilford Woodruff who, in his closing years, made this statement: “I ask my Heavenly Father to pour out his spirit upon me, as his servant, that in my advanced age, and during the few days I have to spend here in the flesh, I may be led by his inspiration. I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from his oracles of God and from their duty. …” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff [Bookcraft, 1969], pp. 212–13.)
This should give us deep assurance.

Except for the scriptures which say the opposite, it would.

D&C 43
1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

So, it was possible, and scriptural provision was made, in case Joseph should apostatize. (Joseph appointed Hyrum as his successor; both Joseph and Hyrum were killed together. The reader can do the math.)

One other leader wrote: “Men do not obtain place in this Church because they seek for it. If it were known that a man was ambitious to hold a certain office in the Church, that fact itself would lead to his defeat because his desire would not be granted unto him. This is the case with the officers of this Church. … [They] are responsible to God. God chose and nominated [them], and it is for him to straighten [them] out if [they] do wrong.” (George Q. Cannon, in Deseret Weekly, May 21, 1898, p. 708.)

And, we have this prophecy of Joseph Smith to Mosiah Hancock, which gives a different picture altogether.

"You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty."
(Mosiah Hancock Journal, pg. 28) A warning to members of the Church.

I guess the ambitious in the Church don't publicize their aims.

Mostly my response to this post is, see: Seek the Truth's post, at the top

It seems to me that the more you argue and try to convince people that a person is not a prophet, the more you pique their interest in that person. Everyone loves a good controversy, it seems. There are those making a spectacle out of the servants of the Lord by arguing their case back and forth. The servants themselves are not even present. But all this fuss being made about them is going to get people wondering. And they might just go looking for those guys to see what all that fuss is about.

Seems to me that if you didn't think a person or a groups of leaders were prophets of God, you would want to keep quiet about it. Otherwise, you are just going to get more people listening to them.

log wrote:

laronius wrote:A point that log likes to bring up is the idea of prophets being called from outside the Church. He references the scriptures to make his point. But to make a true comparison, you need to compare apples to apples.

The Church as it exists today had no ancient scripture counterpart until the time of the Christ.

That is only superficially true, if you go by the precise hierarchical structure of the Church (ie, must have 15 apostles, some evangelists, pastors, whatever). In point of fact, it appears in both its virtues and its vices to be the exact image of the ancient Jews.

As for the rest, well, if you have faith in the righteousness of men, despite the historical and scriptural examples otherwise among even them called directly by Christ, see if it saves you in the end. I have my doubts, personally, that it will.

I like to look to men and women as good examples when I can find them. It helps put into perspective what is achievable in this life by mere mortals. But I wouldn't say that that is where I place my faith. Even men and women I look up to are supported in their goodness by God.

But I do have faith in the Lord's program and our ability to have everything verified through the Spirit. It is this ability that allows me to stop worrying about the imperfections of Church leaders. So long as the Holy Ghost bears witness of who they are and what they teach the rest doesn't matter. When I do good in my calling I hope others will acknowledge the good I do and not reject it because of my imperfections. I try to do the same with others regardless of their position in the Church.

As a ward clerk, even though I hold none of the decision making authority, I see the inside workings of my bishopric up close. I see their imperfections and mortal flaws. They often have to work with incomplete knowledge of situations when making decisions. They each, as we all do, have only limited experiences to draw upon. They just plain make mistakes at times. But I see how notwithstanding all this the Lord is able to still work through them to accomplish his purposes in blessing the lives of many. And I don't think this "arrangement" changes no matter how far up the Church "totem pole" you go. We are all imperfect men and women becoming more perfect as we seek to help others become perfected. That is the Lord's program and it is in that that I do have faith.

brrgilbert wrote:Doctrine and Covenants Section 1:

11 Wherefore the voice of the Lord is unto the ends of the earth, that all that will hear may hear:

12 Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh;

13 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth.

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
. . .
24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.
. . .
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

By the Lord's own voice, He has given that which is to help guide us. Pay particular attention to verses 24-28. The commandments of God are given to HIS servants in their weakness and inasmuch as they erred it would be made known and inasmuch as they sinned they would be chastened in order to repent. Nevertheless, in referring to verse 14, direction (commandments) shall come through the prophets and the apostles duly chosen, "in spite of" and most likely "because of" their weaknesses.

I mentioned this on facebook and I shall proceed to do it here. If God can speak to man, as He did Balaam, through the mouth of a @#!!$#!%, He can certainly speak through me and you. God is able to do His own work and utilize whom He chooses to bring it to pass. The Church of Jesus Christ . . . yes, His Church is the duly appointed mechanism through which His direction is to come through His servants. That being said, please understand that a monopoly on truth is not had by this organization. Heavenly Father is orchestrating a masterpiece of a Millennium and we know that it will include those of other faiths. It is imperative that the "flag-bearing" and "banner waving" organization be recognized as such. That is why we cannot judge to condemn or cast aside other religions. Judgement is meant for identification and not condemnation. It needs to be a time of gathering and not scattering. We don't have much time left to accomplish this task. The difference between wheat and tares is not easily observed by appearance, it comes by way of substance. They are substantially different, if not discernable through appearance. (The threshing floor will certainly reveal it.)

+1
Christ did say there are but two churches, one is the whore of all the earth, and the other is the Church of the Lamb of God. The latter will be with Him during the Millennium. Yet temple work will be going on and many more will convert to the gospel of living waters.

TBMormon wrote:That was powerful, brrgilbert. Thanks for sharing.

I also believe that if we would forget about whether the church leaders are perfect or not and just listen to them and read their words as led by the Spirit, that the Lord would touch our hearts through them. We could be edified by them if we exercised faith in them and their words, according to our faith in Christ. As long as we stop focusing on who they are and start focusing on the message, praying for understanding through the Spirit, we will be able to learn what the Lord wants us to learn.

If Christ had not called upon twelve sinners to be His Disciples, He would have been all by Himself. Why are members of this church so eager to point out faults and sins? Even Nephi, son of Lehi, was a sinner. He lamented over the sins that easily beset him. Yet he was one of the greatest prophets ever.

2 Nephi 4
16 Behold, my soul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my heart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.
17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.
18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.
19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
20 My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.
21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.
22 He hath confounded mine enemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.
23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the night-time.
24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.
25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.
26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath visited men in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?
27 And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I dangry because of mine enemy?
28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.
29 Do not anger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.
30 Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

Doesn't anyone besides me believe that our current prophets feel the same way as Nephi? Maybe it's time to look within ourselves and seek to become pure and spotless, and not worry so much about Pres. "X" or sister "Y"or brother "Z". It is member "U" that has to find Christ and allow the Atonement to work in cleansing and purifying each of us.

In the Lord’s Church there is no such thing as a “loyal opposition.” One is either for the kingdom of God and stands in defense of God’s prophets and apostles, or one stands opposed.
“False prophets,” according to the Prophet Joseph Smith, “always arise to oppose the true prophets” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 365).

When we think of false prophets and false teachers, we tend to think of those who espouse an obviously false doctrine or presume to have authority to teach the true gospel of Christ according to their own interpretation. We often assume that such individuals are associated with small radical groups on the fringes of society. However, I reiterate: there are false prophets and false teachers who have or at least claim to have membership in the Church. There are those who, without authority, claim Church endorsement to their products and practices. Beware of such. http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... +interpret" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Epistemology wrote:In the Lord’s Church there is no such thing as a “loyal opposition.” One is either for the kingdom of God and stands in defense of God’s prophets and apostles, or one stands opposed.
“False prophets,” according to the Prophet Joseph Smith, “always arise to oppose the true prophets” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 365).

When we think of false prophets and false teachers, we tend to think of those who espouse an obviously false doctrine or presume to have authority to teach the true gospel of Christ according to their own interpretation. We often assume that such individuals are associated with small radical groups on the fringes of society. However, I reiterate: there are false prophets and false teachers who have or at least claim to have membership in the Church. There are those who, without authority, claim Church endorsement to their products and practices. Beware of such. http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... +interpret" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for posting this. I thought a video would help. Wow, this is a great talk!

Epistemology wrote:In the Lord’s Church there is no such thing as a “loyal opposition.” One is either for the kingdom of God and stands in defense of God’s prophets and apostles, or one stands opposed.

One should never defend error, because that would be the opposite of wielding the sword of justice in defense of truth and virtue, and, besides, I seem to recall that we are to defend the kingdom of God, not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, neither the leadership thereof.

They are not equivalent.

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

3 Nephi 9:20
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

log wrote:

Epistemology wrote:In the Lord’s Church there is no such thing as a “loyal opposition.” One is either for the kingdom of God and stands in defense of God’s prophets and apostles, or one stands opposed.

One should never defend error, because that would be the opposite of wielding the sword of justice in defense of truth and virtue, and, besides, I seem to recall that we are to defend the kingdom of God, not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, neither the leadership thereof.

They are not equivalent.

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

3 Nephi 9:20
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

But just where does one obtain the ordinances required to be baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost?
And laying aside the BoM where would one learn how to have a broken heart and contrite spirit?
If we believe the BoM to be the word of God; if we believe it came to us through divine means, if we believe that Christ organized a church, having Disciples...then we must defend our church as being Christ's church, with a Prophet and Apostles guiding it.
Christ says that if we are not for him, then we are against him. Our church provides all the saving ordinances necessary for exaltation...and none other.
Isn't this the way you see it?

freedomfighter wrote: And laying aside the BoM where would one learn how to have a broken heart and contrite spirit?

Laying aside the BoM is precisely why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is condemned.

D&C 84:54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

Our church provides all the saving ordinances necessary for exaltation...and none other.
Isn't this the way you see it?

Yes, and that's precisely what I tell people.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:31
31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.

log wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: And laying aside the BoM where would one learn how to have a broken heart and contrite spirit?

Laying aside the BoM is precisely why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is condemned.

D&C 84:54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

Our church provides all the saving ordinances necessary for exaltation...and none other.
Isn't this the way you see it?

Yes, and that's precisely what I tell people.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:31
31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.

So if you believe the BoM to be true
If you believe the precepts taught therein
If you strive to live according to those precepts
if you have a broken heart and a contrite spirit
then are you under this condemnation?
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is for each member in it, not as a whole, but individually. Each person must be in a personal; relationship/partnership with Christ in order to be saved let alone exalted. No where in scripture do we read that any one person can go to heaven on the shirttail of another. Our own testimony and obedience is what's required. Read Moroni 10:32,33

freedomfighter wrote:

log wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: And laying aside the BoM where would one learn how to have a broken heart and contrite spirit?

Laying aside the BoM is precisely why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is condemned.

D&C 84:54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

Our church provides all the saving ordinances necessary for exaltation...and none other.
Isn't this the way you see it?

Yes, and that's precisely what I tell people.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:31
31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.

So if you believe the BoM to be true
If you believe the precepts taught therein
If you strive to live according to those precepts
if you have a broken heart and a contrite spirit
then are you under this condemnation?

Are you asking me, personally? Then no.

The Church, however, still is.

log wrote:Are you asking me, personally? Then no.

The Church, however, still is.

Then you have nothing to worry about, do you? Just do your part and don't worry about everybody else. What's the big issue?