LDS Freedom Forum

freedomfighter wrote:

log wrote:Are you asking me, personally? Then no.

The Church, however, still is.

Then you have nothing to worry about, do you? Just do your part and don't worry about everybody else. What's the big issue?

That is correct, I have nothing to worry about.

My part is to persuade all men unto repentance (2 Nephi 26:27), and to wield the sword of justice in defense of truth and virtue.

Sometimes, that means speaking up when error is spoken.

log wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:

log wrote:Are you asking me, personally? Then no.

The Church, however, still is.

Then you have nothing to worry about, do you? Just do your part and don't worry about everybody else. What's the big issue?

That is correct, I have nothing to worry about.

My part is to persuade all men unto repentance (2 Nephi 26:27), and to wield the sword of justice in defense of truth and virtue.

Sometimes, that means speaking up when error is spoken.

And just who are you trying to get to repent?
My call is to:

Luke 22:32
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

But when calling people to repentance, be sure you know what they need to repent of. I mean. you have referenced the whole church as being under condemnation. That carries a lot of weight on your shoulders does it not?

log wrote:

Epistemology wrote:In the Lord’s Church there is no such thing as a “loyal opposition.” One is either for the kingdom of God and stands in defense of God’s prophets and apostles, or one stands opposed.

One should never defend error, because that would be the opposite of wielding the sword of justice in defense of truth and virtue, and, besides, I seem to recall that we are to defend the kingdom of God, not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, neither the leadership thereof.

They are not equivalent.

You are correct they are not equivalent, any more than the oak tree and the acorn are not equivalent. Our job is to support the church in tits divinely appointed process of building the Kingdom, and establishing Zion. Our commitment is to work in the "Church" and only by doing that can we build the kingdom. If you think you can build the kingdom of God in some other way, you are in error. If we seek to tear down the church, we are working against the kingdom, Zion and our Lord and Savior. That would make us a tare. Please, don't be that guy.

freedomfighter wrote: And just who are you trying to get to repent?
My call is to:

Luke 22:32
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

But when calling people to repentance, be sure you know what they need to repent of. I mean. you have referenced the whole church as being under condemnation. That carries a lot of weight on your shoulders does it not?

It is no burden at all. I find that when I hold up a general garment (or, in other words, the scriptures), and someone claims it fits them (or, in other words, their conscience pricks them), then, in the words of the prophet, "Thou art the man." (2 Samuel 12:7)

log wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: And just who are you trying to get to repent?
My call is to:

Luke 22:32
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

But when calling people to repentance, be sure you know what they need to repent of. I mean. you have referenced the whole church as being under condemnation. That carries a lot of weight on your shoulders does it not?

It is no burden at all. I find that when I hold up a general garment (or, in other words, the scriptures), and someone claims it fits them (or, in other words, their conscience pricks them), then, in the words of the prophet, "Thou art the man." (2 Samuel 12:7)

Then I suggest you start with the man in the mirror and go from there.

freedomfighter wrote:

log wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: And just who are you trying to get to repent?
My call is to:

Luke 22:32
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

But when calling people to repentance, be sure you know what they need to repent of. I mean. you have referenced the whole church as being under condemnation. That carries a lot of weight on your shoulders does it not?

It is no burden at all. I find that when I hold up a general garment (or, in other words, the scriptures), and someone claims it fits them (or, in other words, their conscience pricks them), then, in the words of the prophet, "Thou art the man." (2 Samuel 12:7)

Then I suggest you start with the man in the mirror and go from there.

Because I have, I seek to strengthen my brethren, that they, too, may be converted.

log wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:

log wrote: And just who are you trying to get to repent?
My call is to:

It is no burden at all. I find that when I hold up a general garment (or, in other words, the scriptures), and someone claims it fits them (or, in other words, their conscience pricks them), then, in the words of the prophet, "Thou art the man." (2 Samuel 12:7)

Then I suggest you start with the man in the mirror and go from there.

Because I have, I seek to strengthen my brethren, that they, too, may be converted.

But just how far will you get when you spout off that the whole church is under condemnation. I mean, why not just pour salt on the wound, that'll convert them.
Each person when taught the gospel of Jesus Christ has their own agency to handle what they do with it. Some will hide it under a bushel, some will become idle, and some will run with all their might to do what pleases God. But it is their agency, the beginnings of faith and hope and a thirst for righteousness that guides them at the beginning. Then Christ takes up the slack as that person grows and learns and applies. But don't ruin everything by saying, "by the way, the church is under condemnation." They may turn the other way and run. That's a big help!

freedomfighter wrote:

log wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: Then I suggest you start with the man in the mirror and go from there.

Because I have, I seek to strengthen my brethren, that they, too, may be converted.

But just how far will you get when you spout off that the whole church is under condemnation.

Take that up with the Lord.

Or President Benson, who repeated it.

Or the Church, since it publishes the scriptures.

But don't ruin everything by saying, "by the way, the church is under condemnation." They may turn the other way and run. That's a big help!

That's why I give instructions as to what to do that the condemnation may be removed. I never point out a problem without giving the solution: repentance.

log wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:

log wrote:t=30970]to strengthen my brethren[/url], that they, too, may be converted.

But just how far will you get when you spout off that the whole church is under condemnation.

Take that up with the Lord.

Or President Benson, who repeated it.

Or the Church, since it publishes the scriptures.

But don't ruin everything by saying, "by the way, the church is under condemnation." They may turn the other way and run. That's a big help!

That's why I give instructions as to what to do that the condemnation may be removed. I never point out a problem without giving the solution: repentance.

Maybe that's your calling. At this point, who am I to say any different? The Spirit should be your guide.

freedomfighter wrote:The Spirit should be your guide.

Exactly!

Love this quote of Joseph Smith
- The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...”

Brigham Young
Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 150

“What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blink self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 3, p. 45

“How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves.”

We are to follow truth, and follow it deeply, from wherever it may come

Simon wrote:Love this quote of Joseph Smith
- The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238

“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...”

Brigham Young
Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 150

“What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blink self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 3, p. 45

“How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves.”

We are to follow truth, and follow it deeply, from wherever it may come

unfortunately there are those that think they know the truth but are in error because they interpret scripture incorrectly or interpret scripture different than what the prophets have taught

Epistemology wrote:
unfortunately there are those that think they know the truth but are in error because they interpret scripture incorrectly or interpret scripture different than what the prophets have taught

Sometimes, those that are in error are the prophets themselves. That's one of the problems with depending on prophets.

Epistemology,
I have a sincere question for you. If you are praying and pondering over scripture, and the Spirit gives you an interpretation, what do you do if that interpretation varies from our current prophets' interpretation? I guess, first of all, do you believe this can occur?

log wrote:

Epistemology wrote:
unfortunately there are those that think they know the truth but are in error because they interpret scripture incorrectly or interpret scripture different than what the prophets have taught

Sometimes, those that are in error are the prophets themselves. That's one of the problems with depending on prophets.

certainly true.

but like you and I have both stated, don't worry about the errors prophets make.

moving on, the point I keep trying to make is when fault finding occurs towards the prophets (or anyone) what happens often is the prophets get accused of being in error when they are NOT. This is one of the reasons why we shouldn't do it.

Lizzy60 wrote:Epistemology,
I have a sincere question for you. If you are praying and pondering over scripture, and the Spirit gives you an interpretation, what do you do if that interpretation varies from our current prophets' interpretation? I guess, first of all, do you believe this can occur?

Let me say this (I think this will answer your question)

Do I believe the prophets can make a mistake in what they say or teach? yes

If a prophet teaches something that the HG tells me is wrong than I will follow the HG

But there are mistakes that prophets may make that aren't any of my concern, that's between them and Christ

I think we need to make a difference between "mistakes" of charakter, and "mistakes" of doctrine. I think that sometimes we are either too eager to rely upon another man, usually our leaders, or we are too critical of them. I think if the leaders are in error, God in fact may call simple and weak people to bring them back on course. The Lord often uses the unexpected to teach and to call unto repentance. Christ himselfe did not come at all the way the Jews expected him.. he was a stranger, a simple man if you will. Lehi also was an outsider to the religous system. Samuel the Lamanite was an absolute outsider.. This has happened repeatetly in scripture.

But, I think it is also important to differ between those people who are truely called to do so, and between those that just feel they are called to do so. It is true that Christ governs, he controles how things have to be accomplisehd, and it most certainly will not be the way we think it may be.

As the Lord said, my servants will recognize my voice, may that voice come through angels, prophets or a stranger. We are always to follow truth, wherever it may come from.

I find this, and a majority of the other threads on this forum to be so unenlightening. They always disintegrate into a discussion of the opinion that our prophets are fallen and those that support the divinity of their calling are confused and misled, and those of you who are smarter than these men who are God's chosen servants, and the rest of the members of the church are right and everyone else is wrong. You twist the 10% if the scriptures to support your stance, and ignore the whole of them as well as the proper interpretation of the 10%.
Jacob proclaimed "That he(God) has spoken unto the Jews, by the mouth of his holy prophets, even from the beginning down, from generation to generation, until the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God;" 2 Ne 9:2. Let me testify that President Monson, the first presidency, the quorum of the twelve are the prophets it is referring to. The spirit of God that is in me abhors the nature of these posts. I feel that these efforts are helping to weed out the tares from the Wheat. Please, be Wheat. Christ is governing, as he always has, under the direction of the Father and through his chosen servants on the earth. I will follow the servants of my Master, as long as they bring the spirit of the Holy Ghost with their teachings. And they do that wonderfully. Do I trust them? As long as they teach with that spirit, absolutely.

Rand wrote:I find this, and a majority of the other threads on this forum to be so unenlightening. They always disintegrate into a discussion of the opinion that our prophets are fallen and those that support the divinity of their calling are confused and misled, and those of you who are smarter than these men who are God's chosen servants, and the rest of the members of the church are right and everyone else is wrong. You twist the 10% if the scriptures to support your stance, and ignore the whole of them as well as the proper interpretation of the 10%.
Jacob proclaimed "That he(God) has spoken unto the Jews, by the mouth of his holy prophets, even from the beginning down, from generation to generation, until the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God;" 2 Ne 9:2. Let me testify that President Monson, the first presidency, the quorum of the twelve are the prophets it is referring to. The spirit of God that is in me abhors the nature of these posts. I feel that these efforts are helping to weed out the tares from the Wheat. Please, be Wheat. Christ is governing, as he always has, under the direction of the Father and through his chosen servants on the earth. I will follow the servants of my Master, as long as they bring the spirit of the Holy Ghost with their teachings. And they do that wonderfully. Do I trust them? As long as they teach with that spirit, absolutely.

:-BD

Here is something M Russell Ballard had to say:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... e-teachers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Apostle Paul warned of these days: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth” (2 Tim. 4:3–4).

Paul also taught that the Lord “gave some, apostles; and some, prophets …

“For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, …

“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive” (Eph. 4:11–14).

...Jesus cautioned several times that prior to His Second Coming, “many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many” (Matt. 24:11). As Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is our duty to be watchmen on the tower, warning Church members to beware of false prophets and false teachers who lie in wait to ensnare and destroy faith and testimony. Today we warn you that there are false prophets and false teachers arising; and if we are not careful, even those who are among the faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will fall victim to their deception.

freedomfighter said

Paul also taught that the Lord “gave some, apostles; and some, prophets …

“For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, …

And this is what makes a good leader also a true leader called by Christ, he will not simply teach us about Christ, but will teach us how to KNOW Christ .. We, as a church are commanded to be one as Christ and the Father are one.. Only by striving to be one with Christ can we reach that goal.

If leaders help us do that, then they are the right ones for us to listen to and to learn from ;)

Something I shared on another thread too, but I think it fits here aswell

We can learn a great lesson from Nephi. Lehi, his father, was called to be the leader and prophet of the family. Nevertheless, Nephi desired to receive his own understanding about Lehis visions and revelations. The Lord did not just answer, but even revealed Nephi great insights.

When the arrow broke, even Lehi the prophet began to murmur. Even though Nephi was at that time closer to the Lord, he still went to Lehi and told him that he is to ask the Lord for further directions.

We can learn many things from that. Nephi had the right to know the excact same things as his father, and even in times where Lehi was weak Nephi respected Lehi as the prophet and leader of the family. But Nephi was only able to stand because he had his own visions and revelations. Laman and Lemuel fell because they just followed along.

We have to be as Nephi. The scriptures tell us excactly how to move along.

Rand wrote:I find this, and a majority of the other threads on this forum to be so unenlightening. They always disintegrate into a discussion of the opinion that our prophets are fallen and those that support the divinity of their calling are confused and misled, and those of you who are smarter than these men who are God's chosen servants, and the rest of the members of the church are right and everyone else is wrong. You twist the 10% if the scriptures to support your stance, and ignore the whole of them as well as the proper interpretation of the 10%.
Jacob proclaimed "That he(God) has spoken unto the Jews, by the mouth of his holy prophets, even from the beginning down, from generation to generation, until the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God;" 2 Ne 9:2. Let me testify that President Monson, the first presidency, the quorum of the twelve are the prophets it is referring to. The spirit of God that is in me abhors the nature of these posts. I feel that these efforts are helping to weed out the tares from the Wheat. Please, be Wheat. Christ is governing, as he always has, under the direction of the Father and through his chosen servants on the earth. I will follow the servants of my Master, as long as they bring the spirit of the Holy Ghost with their teachings. And they do that wonderfully. Do I trust them? As long as they teach with that spirit, absolutely.

Ditto Rand. I'm calling it a day here with these types of discussions. The enlightening and uplifting spirit I have felt emanating from the living Prophets of TCOJCOLDS is so completely different than that spirit many here seem to feel when discussing their missions and teachings and that same unsettling spirit felt by many here seems to re-surface again and again here when these discussions come up. I guess that I live in a different world than do those here who seem so dissatisfied and unenlightened by the Lords living oracles and His latter day church and kingdom. Its just a fruitless exercise in futility to continue these back and forths. Cheers mate.

Simon wrote:Something I shared on another thread too, but I think it fits here aswell

We can learn a great lesson from Nephi. Lehi, his father, was called to be the leader and prophet of the family. Nevertheless, Nephi desired to receive his own understanding about Lehis visions and revelations. The Lord did not just answer, but even revealed Nephi way more than Lehi.

When the arrow broke, even Lehi the prophet began to murmur. Even though Nephi was at that time closer to the Lord, he still went to Lehi and told him that he is to ask the Lord for further directions.

We can learn many things from that. Nephi had the right to know the excact same things as his father, and even in times where Lehi was weak Nephi respected Lehi as the prophet and leader of the family. But Nephi was only able to stand because he had his own visions and revelations. Laman and Lemuel fell because they just followed along.

We have to be as Nephi. The scriptures tell us excactly how to move along.

I actually agree with this. My issue is with those who feel Nephi, because of his own experiences, had moved beyond the necessity of listening to Lehi anymore. Just not so. Though I would comment that we only know what Lehi chose to reveal, not necessarily all that God had revealed to him.

True, I am sure Nephi and Lehi had similar insights. At least Nephi shared more with us about the vision of the tree of life.

I think we have to be shipbuilders as Nephi. Even though Lehi was the head, Nephi still received his own call to build the ship. That was his mission. He did not just follow along. It is interesting that those that were just following were the ones who murmured the most. Nephi understood the Lords order, but still connected himselfe with the Lord himselfe, received the same insights and his own callings, he became independend.

On the other hand, even though Nephi respected and loved his father, when Lehi murmured against the Lord, Nephi reminded Lehi of his duty. The Lord has his order of things. And as I said before, I think we learn a great lesson from the scriptures about that order of things