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Henry B. Eyring wrote:The Prophet Joseph Smith knew that his death was imminent. He knew that the precious priesthood keys and the apostleship must not be and would not be lost again.
One of the Apostles, Wilford Woodruff, left us this account of what happened in Nauvoo as the Prophet spoke to the Twelve:
“On that occasion the Prophet Joseph rose up and said to us: ‘Brethren, I have desired to live to see this temple built. I shall never live to see it, but you will. I have sealed upon your heads all the keys of the kingdom of God. I have sealed upon you every key, power, principle that the God of heaven has revealed to me. Now, no matter where I may go or what I may do, the kingdom rests upon you.’” 2
Every prophet that followed Joseph, from Brigham Young to President Hinckley, has held and exercised those keys and has held the sacred apostleship.
But just as in the time of Paul, the power of those priesthood keys for us requires our faith. We have to know by inspiration that the priesthood keys are held by those who lead and serve us. That requires the witness of the Spirit.
And that depends upon our testimony that Jesus is the Christ and that He lives and leads His Church. We must also know for ourselves that the Lord restored His Church and the priesthood keys through the Prophet Joseph Smith. And we must have an assurance through the Holy Ghost, refreshed often, that those keys have been passed without interruption to the living prophet and that the Lord blesses and directs His people through the line of priesthood keys which reaches down through presidents of stakes and of districts and through bishops and branch presidents to us, wherever we are and no matter how far from the prophet and the apostles.
That is not easy today. It was not easy in the days of Paul. It has always been hard to recognize in fallible human beings the authorized servants of God. Paul must have seemed an ordinary man to many. Joseph Smith’s cheerful disposition was seen by some as not fitting their expectations for a prophet of God.
Satan will always work on the Saints of God to undermine their faith in priesthood keys. One way he does it is to point out the humanity of those who hold them. He can in that way weaken our testimony and so cut us loose from the line of keys by which the Lord ties us to Him and can take us and our families home to Him and to our Heavenly Father.
Satan succeeded in undermining the testimony of men who had, with Joseph Smith, seen the heavens opened and heard the voices of angels. The evidence of their physical eyes and ears was not enough when they no longer could feel the testimony that the priesthood keys were still in place with Joseph.
The warning for us is plain. If we look for human frailty in humans, we will always find it. When we focus on finding the frailties of those who hold priesthood keys, we run risks for ourselves. When we speak or write to others of such frailties, we put them at risk.
We live in a world where finding fault in others seems to be the favorite blood sport. It has long been the basis of political campaign strategy. It is the theme of much television programming across the world. It sells newspapers. Whenever we meet anyone, our first, almost unconscious reaction may be to look for imperfections.
To keep ourselves grounded in the Lord’s Church, we can and must train our eyes to recognize the power of the Lord in the service of those He has called. We must be worthy of the companionship of the Holy Ghost. And we need to pray for the Holy Ghost to help us know that men who lead us hold this power. For me, such prayers are most often answered when I am fully engaged in the Lord’s service myself.
Yes, I suppose that it is quite unbelievable in a forum such as this to find two people who agree on something that supports the current Church and brethren in such a positive way. Thankfully though, there are those of us who do have testimony that the fullness of the keys of the Priesthood have been passed on in an unbroken chain in the church to the present day, and that the Lord continues to guide His Church through those keys, and therefore find it inappropriate to publicly and continuously point out or emphasize the fallibility and/or mortal flaws of those who bear these keys - undermining, knowingly or unknowingly, the faith others may have in these true principles. I don't know 'epistimology' at all, but I do appreciate his/her post that alludes to his/her support of these concepts, and the necessity we have as members to obtain a personal knowledge of these things.Videre faciem Dei wrote:I love sock puppet conversations.
Or maybe it is rather to share the words of our leaders in an effort to share in and strengthen one another's testimonies, and to possibly help or touch someone who may not have understood the necessity of these things that they might obtain a witness for themselves to the benefit and blessing of their life. I can't speak for Epistemology, but I don't see any reason to assume the negative, we are sharing the words of our sustained prophets and our personal testimonies.log wrote:Ohhhh, I get it. The OP, and your follow up posts, were actually meant as criticism aimed at those who don't believe what you believe.
Carry on.
It is difficult, I think, to interpret that as anything other than a criticism. But others may not agree.[T]here are those of us who... find it inappropriate to publicly and continuously point out or emphasize the fallibility and/or mortal flaws of those who bear these keys - undermining, knowingly or unknowingly, the faith others may have in these true principles.
We see things not as they are, but as we are. You will only see it as a criticism if you don't agree with them, and Pres. Eyring.log wrote:I, too, see no reason to assume the negative.
It is difficult, I think, to interpret that as anything other than a criticism. But others may not agree.[T]here are those of us who... find it inappropriate to publicly and continuously point out or emphasize the fallibility and/or mortal flaws of those who bear these keys - undermining, knowingly or unknowingly, the faith others may have in these true principles.
There's no such thing as faith in priesthood keys. It's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and if you're not seeing the angels and the miracles then you're dwindling in unbelief and everything you are doing is ineffective (vain). Moroni 7:35-38HBE wrote:Satan will always work on the Saints of God to undermine their faith in priesthood keys.
For any onlookers, the real discussion on priesthood keys is here in the private forum. Maybe Frederick should make that public and move it to gospel discussion. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Mormon who spoke with Jesus face to face wrote:it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain. For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.
Edit: Mormon wrote Moroni 7, not Moroni. He also spoke with Jesus face to face.Luke in chapter 17:20-21 wrote:He [JESUS] answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Even I know "inappropriate" is a negative word.Rand wrote:We see things not as they are, but as we are. You will only see it as a criticism if you don't agree with them, and Pres. Eyring.log wrote:I, too, see no reason to assume the negative.
It is difficult, I think, to interpret that as anything other than a criticism. But others may not agree.[T]here are those of us who... find it inappropriate to publicly and continuously point out or emphasize the fallibility and/or mortal flaws of those who bear these keys - undermining, knowingly or unknowingly, the faith others may have in these true principles.
Of course, the "not" in the definition, corresponding to the prefix "in", makes it a negative word - so I believe I have seen it for what it is. It is not necessary to agree or disagree with the sentence the word appears in to know it is negative, and is thus a criticism.in·ap·pro·pri·ate
ˌinəˈprōprē-it/Submit
adjective
adjective: inappropriate
1.
not suitable or proper in the circumstances.
"there are penalties for inappropriate behavior"
synonyms: unsuitable, unfitting, unseemly, unbecoming, unbefitting, improper, impolite;
antonyms: suitable
Yes, because posting a link to a conference talk, or quoting a portion of that talk and expressing that you like it, certainly must be a contrary act to the priesthood. We shouldn't try to share or testify of the words of the living prophets, right Log? If you and others disagree with the message of this conference talk given by a sustained prophet over our church, why burden the rest of us with your contention and revilings? My words are to those who wish to hear and listen to the words of our sustained prophets, if you want to reject that message I'm fine with that, my words and conversation are not with you, so I will not be engaging you further on this.log wrote:I view attempts at enforcing doctrinal orthodoxy as being contrary to the priesthood (D&C 121:34-44), and, indeed, contrary to the word of God (Alma 32:28).
And - get this - I believe the Church does have the keys of the kingdom.
Do the keys unlock both sides of the door or does someone on the other side have to turn a key as well? What exactly do these keys do for you? Exactly, how do they work?log wrote:I view attempts at enforcing doctrinal orthodoxy as being contrary to the priesthood (D&C 121:34-44), and, indeed, contrary to the word of God (Alma 32:28, AoF 11).
And - get this - I believe the Church does have the keys of the kingdom.
There may be people who may not believe the leadership holds all keys or whatever - I haven't seen anyone on this forum yet making this claim, but let's pretend they exist; I may just not have seen them. If they exist, and are still in the church, then that is because they desire to believe, and have let that desire work in them until they have given place in their hearts for a portion of the word of God, that it may grow. Why, one wonders, would someone arrogate to themselves the task of "correcting" the word as it has place in the hearts of others?26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
I leave you with words of counsel.SteveF wrote:Yes, because posting a link to a conference talk, or quoting a portion of that talk and expressing that you like it, certainly must be a contrary act to the priesthood. We shouldn't try to share or testify of the words of the living prophets, right Log? If you and others disagree with the message of this conference talk given by a sustained prophet over our church, why burden the rest of us with your contention and revilings? My words are to those who wish to hear and listen to the words of our sustained prophets, if you want to reject that message I'm fine with that, my words and conversation are not with you, so I will not be engaging you further on this.log wrote:I view attempts at enforcing doctrinal orthodoxy as being contrary to the priesthood (D&C 121:34-44), and, indeed, contrary to the word of God (Alma 32:28).
And - get this - I believe the Church does have the keys of the kingdom.
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye [say, disbelieving the leadership has all the keys], but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Why, yes; yes, I do. The keys are they which unlock the gate to the way which leads to eternal life. The gate is, of course, repentance and baptism - for which the keys are required - after which cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, without which our baptism is useless (said Joseph), keys or no.Thomas wrote:I believe the leadership has keys but do you know what it means? What do the keys do for you? What good are keys if you don't know what they unlock?
Do you know log?
That is great that you know this log but you should also know the gate is locked on both sides of the veil. It takes more keys then the leaders have.log wrote:Why, yes; yes, I do. The keys are they which unlock the gate to the way which leads to eternal life. The gate is, of course, repentance and baptism - for which the keys are required - after which cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, without which our baptism is useless (said Joseph), keys or no.Thomas wrote:I believe the leadership has keys but do you know what it means? What do the keys do for you? What good are keys if you don't know what they unlock?
Do you know log?
The brethren may hold the keys to baptism but Christ holds the only key that unlocks the gate to eternal life. Here is where fawning over the brethren does no good.2 Nephi 9:41
41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.
Perfect advice for a person actively criticizing a brother for (ironically) purported criticism of others. I hope you will take your own advice.log wrote:I leave you with words of counsel.
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye [say, disbelieving the leadership has all the keys], but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
I do, bro. I do.SteveF wrote:Perfect advice for a person actively criticizing a brother for (ironically) purported criticism of others. I hope you will take your own advice.log wrote:I leave you with words of counsel.
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye [say, disbelieving the leadership has all the keys], but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
God Bless