LDS Freedom Forum

He reported the events because... (it's in pg 214-215).

And, at this point, we leave you to yourself until you start contributing. Thus far, your fruit has tasted kinda bitter, bro.

Sort of a subjective thing wouldn't you say.

So the answer to the question is that JS reported the events because he was listing examples of false doctrine, false spirits, and people operating outside the order of the Church and Priesthood.

Indeed, I would have to agree he was reporting things; as to your characterization of his motivations, well, I doubt you have a post-mortem mind-reading device, and, in any event, the things Joseph's reporting on do not have anything to do with Joseph exing someone, to say nothing of Joseph exing someone for error as opposed to iniquity, the claim you pretended to address.

And, I repeat, "Joseph wasn't a self-righteous, arrogant know-it-all seeking to enforce creeds of orthodoxy upon the children of men."

Your fruit's kind of bitter, bro.

What are keys?

Ok guys here's the deal. Salvation IS regaining the presence of God. (overcoming spiritual death) The Book of Mormon is a manual for how to do it while in the flesh so that you can endure celestial glory in the world to come. (see D&C 76) The Book of Mormon is full of examples of men who did this. Any priesthood key is meant for that purpose; to save. (see D&C 84)

There are two views being put forth. One view will produce results and one is vain or in other words inneffective. The vain perspective will keep you from seeing the Lord face to face in reality in this life, hence it will damn you if you believe it. The issue at hand is this: WHAT are keys?

The most common LDS view has most [sort of] neatly been set down on this thread by Hippophibia when he says this:

Hippophibia wrote:If a person is worthy any keys are bestowed or callings given they are sustained by the Holy Spirit that is what the ["key" is] the right to guidance of the Holy Ghost ie revelation pertaining to that calling/key-of-authority that has been bestowed and that is the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Due to the brackets and syntax I'll summarize this view. We view "keys" as the right to receive revelation and help in our callings or stewardship and the authority to do ordinances. We view these as delegated from the top (President Monson) down. The comment about the Holy Spirit of Promise is not actually part of the mainstream doctrine. On page one of this thread Alighieri disputes my view but didn't say what a key was. He just listed some keys. He quotes Parrish in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism which everyone ought to check out. See his link and post on page one. Parrish says this about keys:

Parrish wrote:The keys of the priesthood refer to the right to exercise power in the name of Jesus Christ or to preside over a priesthood function, quorum, or organizational division of the Church. Keys are necessary to maintain order and to see that the functions of the Church are performed in the proper time, place, and manner.

This is a very narrow and even misleading understanding of keys and misses what most of the scriptures on keys are talking about. Read Alighieri and Hippophibia for the contrast. I am grateful that they are posting it so that others can see the contrast.

As an organization men have laid out as neatly as possible a checklist of "saving ordinances" that must be received in order to be saved in the kingdom of heaven. Rarely but sometimes we add the caveat that we must have our ordinances ratified or sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise but we don't say what that is. We also indicate we must endure to the end but we generally assume that's the end of our life and we must endure faithfully in the church.

This is either a correct view that will get you into the presence of God or it will damn you.

Without disputing that the prophet holds ALL the authority to run the church and the temples by delegation or however he wants (the Parrish definition) I will put forth a different viewpoint. Keys are knowledge or secrets; a cipher to a puzzle or a legend on a map. The journey is individual and each must work out their salvation before God. Each indiviual must gain the keys to the kingdom which are the keys to their own salvation. This necessarily involves one connecting directly to heaven. You will understand this better by believing that Jesus does want to meet you in person and have you know Him while in the flesh, and by asking God The Father if this is true.

There are men on this forum who have communed with God and who testify that you must connect to heaven now. If you want to learn the keys to this process, consider the alternative viewpoint and begin asking heaven about it. Ponder the scriptures on keys with this perspective. You do not have to dispute the authority of the church to perform its functions.

May I suggest that those seeking more information about keys visit this thread for more info on the subject and let log and STT battle it out for supremacy here.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ok ... give you the last word... Go!

log wrote:Indeed, I would have to agree he was reporting things; as to your characterization of his motivations, well, I doubt you have a post-mortem mind-reading device,

It's right in the text. Just read it.

and, in any event, the things Joseph's reporting on do not have anything to do with Joseph exing someone, to say nothing of Joseph exing someone for error as opposed to iniquity, the claim you pretended to address.

It's pretty straightforward. I guess if you could say that false doctrine or practice or really however you want to characterize it all fall under "iniquity" I guess we could agree there, I would just make distinctions between say adultery and someone trying pass off revelations given outside the order of Priesthood.

And, I repeat, "Joseph wasn't a self-righteous, arrogant know-it-all seeking to enforce creeds of orthodoxy upon the children of men."

Have you ever read TPJS. And his comments on sectarian beliefs. And that everyone not Mormon will go to hell, and even some Mormons too. Etc.

]Your fruit's kind of bitter, bro.

Sort of a subjective thing wouldn't you say.

Seek the Truth wrote: It's pretty straightforward. I guess if you could say that false doctrine or practice or really however you want to characterize it all fall under "iniquity" I guess we could agree there, I would just make distinctions between say adultery and someone trying pass off revelations given outside the order of Priesthood.

You are again pretending to respond.

Your fruit's kind of bitter, bro.

log wrote: You are again pretending to respond.

It seems like there is something uncomfortable for you about this Bishop episode. I have some guesses on what that could be.

Your fruit's kind of bitter, bro.

Sort of a subjective thing wouldn't you say.

Looks like Seek the Truth has finally found his eternal companion. God bless the both of you.

=))

He's not going to like that.

Hippophibia wrote:Section 132: only relates to the New and Everlasting contract of marriage, and the keys relating to it.
"And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these..." Eternal marriage is a final ordinance of salvation and can only be fully fulfilled when both parties become eternal resurrected being. The same is not applicable to other ordinances and keys.

There are many other keys, of baptism, PB, priesthood, gathering, judgement (Bishops are local judges in Israel), baptism for the dead, missionary work (areas dedicated for the work) etc. ordinances that are required to be done in the flesh, and of course every blessing is predicated on faithfulness just like baptism is a gate of entry that requires enduring in faith to the end.

A few examples!!
Like when a person is given the gift of the holy ghost after baptism the ordinance, is in force and the HG abides with the person as long as they remain faithful, and when they move onto the spirit world the ordinance and blessing continues with them.

Dedicating an area for missionary work is a priesthood ordinance that requires keys: and the sealing is on earth and heaven and blessing immediately available.

A person assigned as a Sunday School teacher - the calling is sealed on earth and heaven, the person has the keys to teach as long as the calling is in force and they are worthy.

Dedicating a grave of a deceased person!!

If a person is worthy any keys are bestowed or callings given they are sustained by the Holy Spirit that is what the ["key" is] the right to guidance of the Holy Ghost ie revelation pertaining to that calling/key-of-authority that has been bestowed and that is the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise.

What is sealed on earth is sealed in heaven and is sustained by the Light and power of Christ and the Holy Ghost.

You might want to read 132 again.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Section 132:7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise....

Does not relate to ordinances of the gospel the word “ordinance” is never used - the covenant of marriage is different as it involves 2 mortals and God.
The verse is refering to earthly covernats between perons or groups of persons that have not been seald by the Priest Hood, once the contract is sealed by the Prist Hood one can say the Holy Spirit of Promis is there and the contract is binding both sides of the vale.
The fixation with sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise is misleading - It is the covernat/contract been sealed by the PH.

As to keys we need to learn our keys and responsibilities in this life - we learn by principle on principal, line upon line, etc. If a young women president is called, one would expect that she learn the responsibilities and keys of that calling - God holds a person responsible for it. If you wait till you get to heaven before you learn your keys and responsibilities your progression will be delayed.

Being a patriarch ie having a spouse and children come with keys and responsibility irrespective of worthiness or membership in the church, and the person is held accountable accordingly.
One cannot act outside of the bounds of your key and responsibility without occurring the wrath of God.

Hippophibia wrote:Section 132:7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise....

Does not relate to ordinances of the gospel the word “ordinance” is never used - the covenant of marriage is different as it involves 2 mortals and God.
The verse is refering to earthly covernats between perons or groups of persons that have not been seald by the Priest Hood, once the contract is sealed by the Prist Hood one can say the Holy Spirit of Promis is there and the contract is binding both sides of the vale.
The fixation with sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise is misleading - It is the covernat/contract been sealed by the PH.

As to keys we need to learn our keys and responsibilities in this life - we learn by principle on principal, line upon line, etc. If a young women president is called, one would expect that she learn the responsibilities and keys of that calling - God holds a person responsible for it. If you wait till you get to heaven before you learn your keys and responsibilities your progression will be delayed.

Being a patriarch ie having a spouse and children come with keys and responsibility irrespective of worthiness or membership in the church, and the person is held accountable accordingly.
One cannot act outside of the bounds of your key and responsibility without occurring the wrath of God.

You mean you didn't make a covenant in the temple? I really don't think that covenants, oaths, contracts etc., between men are valid after this, life anyway. This is referring to all contracts and covenants with God. The ordinances are covenants.