LDS Freedom Forum

A friend of mine is Baptist and her belief is that salvation comes by faith alone. In contrast, we believe that along with faith in Christ, repentance is an essential part of salvation. For her good works are only the fruit (or evidence) of having been saved.

With this in mind I came across this statement from the recent general conference by Elder Nelson

We can change our behavior. Our very desires can change. How? There is only one way. True change—permanent change—can come only through the healing, cleansing, and enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He loves you—each of you! He allows you to access His power as you keep His commandments, eagerly, earnestly, and exactly. It is that simple and certain. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of change! (Russell M. Nelson, General Conference Oct. 2013)

Does this seem like a paradox? God helps you keep the commandments so long as you keep the commandments. It seems someone outside the church could get confused by this and wonder where exactly does the atonement become involved. thoughts?

Excellent question firefly. I have often thought about this same seeming conundrum. For example, we learn in the BofM that we are saved by grace after all we can do. But then I would think, in any given situation I have the ability to choose right from wrong, so if I choose wrong then I haven't done all I can do. But if I always chose right than I wouldn't need the grace of God, but of course I don't always choose right so salvation seems impossible.

What I have come to learn though is that "all we can do" does not preceed the granting of grace. The word "after" in "after all we can do" kind of throws us off. But the grace of God is always available for us to use. But it does not save us until "after" we use it. For example, with prayer, the scriptures, and the Holy Ghost I have access to great power and strength to help me make good choices. But if I don't use them I am not doing all I can do and can therefore expect no additional help from the Lord because I am rejecting what he is already offering.

Also, I think one of the disconnects when speaking with evangelicals is the use of jargon. When we speak of salvation we are speaking of two entirely different things. Their view of salvation is actually more like our view of the terrestrial kingdom than the celestial kingdom. To us salvation/exaltation is not just a place but a way of being. That's why works are so important, not that they save us, but because good works and a good heart are the signs of what we are. No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God and until we have become purified of all ungodly desires we cannot dwell with him.

I rather like the way Brad Wilcox explains it, it is one of the better analogies I've discovered and is consistent with my own experience. My guess is laronius would feel it aligns with the thoughts expressed above.

“Christ’s arrangement with us is similar to a mom providing music lessons for her child. Mom pays the piano teacher. Because Mom pays the debt in full, she can turn to her child and ask for something. What is it? Practice! Does the child’s practice pay the piano teacher? No. Does the child’s practice repay Mom for paying the piano teacher? No. Practicing is how the child shows appreciation for Mom’s incredible gift. It is how he takes advantage of the amazing opportunity Mom is giving him to live his life at a higher level. Mom’s joy is found not in getting repaid but in seeing her gift used—seeing her child improve. And so she continues to call for practice, practice, practice. If the child sees Mom’s requirement of practice as being too overbearing (“Gosh, Mom, why do I need to practice? None of the other kids have to practice! I’m just going to be a professional baseball player anyway!”), perhaps it is because he doesn’t yet see with mom’s eyes. He doesn’t see how much better his life could be if he would choose to live on a higher plane.

In the same way, because Jesus has paid justice, He can now turn to us and say, “Follow me” (Matthew 4:19), “Keep my commandments” (John 14:15). If we see His requirements as being way too much to ask (“Gosh! None of the other Christians have to pay tithing! None of the other Christians have to go on missions, serve in callings, and do temple work!”), maybe it is because we do not yet see through Christ’s eyes. We have not yet comprehended what He is trying to make of us.”

“…there should never be just two options: perfection or giving up. When learning the piano, are the only options performing at Carnegie Hall or quitting? No. Growth and development take time. Learning takes time. When we understand grace, we understand that God is long-suffering, that change is a process, and that repentance is a pattern in our lives.”

“But Brother Wilcox, don’t you realize how hard it is to practice? I’m just not very good at the piano. I hit a lot of wrong notes. It takes me forever to get it right.” Now wait. Isn’t that all part of the learning process? When a young pianist hits a wrong note, we don’t say he is not worthy to keep practicing. We don’t expect him to be flawless. We just expect him to keep trying. Perfection may be his ultimate goal, but for now we can be content with progress in the right direction. Why is this perspective so easy to see in the context of learning piano but so hard to see in the context of learning heaven?


Too many are giving up on the Church because they are tired of constantly feeling like they are falling short. They have tried in the past, but they always feel like they are just not good enough. They don’t understand grace.”

“… grace is not a booster engine that kicks in once our fuel supply is exhausted. Rather, it is our constant energy source. It is not the light at the end of the tunnel but the light that moves us through the tunnel. Grace is not achieved somewhere down the road. It is received right here and right now. It is not a finishing touch; it is the Finisher’s touch.”

Yes, Dannyk, that's a good way of putting it. That whole talk in general is very good. Thanks for the reminder.

firefly wrote:A friend of mine is Baptist and her belief is that salvation comes by faith alone. In contrast, we believe that along with faith in Christ, repentance is an essential part of salvation. For her good works are only the fruit (or evidence) of having been saved.

With this in mind I came across this statement from the recent general conference by Elder Nelson

We can change our behavior. Our very desires can change. How? There is only one way. True change—permanent change—can come only through the healing, cleansing, and enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He loves you—each of you! He allows you to access His power as you keep His commandments, eagerly, earnestly, and exactly. It is that simple and certain. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of change! (Russell M. Nelson, General Conference Oct. 2013)

Does this seem like a paradox? God helps you keep the commandments so long as you keep the commandments. It seems someone outside the church could get confused by this and wonder where exactly does the atonement become involved. thoughts?

Salvation does come by faith alone, for faith is a principle of action and power. God's grace is ALWAYS extended, by the mere fact of allowing me another breath.

All I need to do is turn to him, and fill my life and mind with His light. Repentance (or changing) becomes the natural result as His light disperses the darkness.

(At least that's what I think as of 10/29 - 12:42pm)

I have this discussion with a good friend of mine quite often. He attends an Assembly of God church, but has lots of LDS beliefs.

Everytime there is a passage about belief or faith, I ask him to define both. Like it was said, faith is a principle of power. I refer him to Hebrews 11 where it discusses faith, and all of the actions taken that are a demonstration of faith. Never just a belief. Then we discuss belief. If you truly believe, you will listen and obey.

At the end of the day, the Brad Wilcox analogy is superb. He was inspired to make that correlation. It is nice to see in our current iteration of doctrine, the LDS church is starting to teach mercy and grace. A whole lot more than in the 70s and 80s when if you were not living a perfect life, you could hope for telestial or outerdarkness. This has been a nice shift over time in general conference talks.

So to the OP, Christ changes your behavior as you truly desire him to do so. It is funny, it does not make you perfect, but it does make mercy and grace seem more acessible.

ajax wrote:

firefly wrote:A friend of mine is Baptist and her belief is that salvation comes by faith alone. In contrast, we believe that along with faith in Christ, repentance is an essential part of salvation. For her good works are only the fruit (or evidence) of having been saved.

With this in mind I came across this statement from the recent general conference by Elder Nelson

We can change our behavior. Our very desires can change. How? There is only one way. True change—permanent change—can come only through the healing, cleansing, and enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He loves you—each of you! He allows you to access His power as you keep His commandments, eagerly, earnestly, and exactly. It is that simple and certain. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of change! (Russell M. Nelson, General Conference Oct. 2013)

Does this seem like a paradox? God helps you keep the commandments so long as you keep the commandments. It seems someone outside the church could get confused by this and wonder where exactly does the atonement become involved. thoughts?

Salvation does come by faith alone, for faith is a principle of action and power. God's grace is ALWAYS extended, by the mere fact of allowing me another breath.

All I need to do is turn to him, and fill my life and mind with His light. Repentance (or changing) becomes the natural result as His light disperses the darkness.

(At least that's what I think as of 10/29 - 12:42pm)

Good thought ajax. The Baptist is right - salvation DOES come by faith alone. However, it seems that most evangelical Christians think that faith is a mental exercise. In the LDS faith, we tend to focus on the works too much. But our works are dead and we are unprofitable servants (Mosiah 2:21). However, if we have faith unto salvation, we will manifest that faith by doing the works given to us by the Lord.

ajax wrote:

firefly wrote:A friend of mine is Baptist and her belief is that salvation comes by faith alone. In contrast, we believe that along with faith in Christ, repentance is an essential part of salvation. For her good works are only the fruit (or evidence) of having been saved.

With this in mind I came across this statement from the recent general conference by Elder Nelson

We can change our behavior. Our very desires can change. How? There is only one way. True change—permanent change—can come only through the healing, cleansing, and enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He loves you—each of you! He allows you to access His power as you keep His commandments, eagerly, earnestly, and exactly. It is that simple and certain. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of change! (Russell M. Nelson, General Conference Oct. 2013)

Does this seem like a paradox? God helps you keep the commandments so long as you keep the commandments. It seems someone outside the church could get confused by this and wonder where exactly does the atonement become involved. thoughts?

Salvation does come by faith alone, for faith is a principle of action and power. God's grace is ALWAYS extended, by the mere fact of allowing me another breath.

All I need to do is turn to him, and fill my life and mind with His light. Repentance (or changing) becomes the natural result as His light disperses the darkness.

(At least that's what I think as of 10/29 - 12:42pm)

Works is not only the actually performing of various tasks. Works is the manifestation of the changes that have resulted from exercising faith. If there is not evidence of the change of heart, than the necessary works/working of the changes necessary have not taken place. The real works is manifested because of the change that has taken place; works is not what causes the change...it is the end result. Serving others BECAUSE of the change is a manifestation of the change. But what does the change encompass? What are the true Works?

James teaches excellently about this:

James 1:22-2:15

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Chapter 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

So here, James gives us an example of whether or not our faith is dead. It concerns judgment; and while we are in this state of feeling the need to judge, our faith is dead. The real fruit of whether we have works is in how Christ-like our actions are. I would offer that it is not in the quantity of services performed; rather, it is whether we are judging one another. The real works is how Christ-like we are. What was Christ's ultimate service to us? It was forgiveness. He forgave even those who crucified Him. Is this the same ultimate service we are giving? Or are we still in a state of meting out punishment because we are still judging one another?

Who are the poor? Physically, we identify the poor as being in need of sustenance and clothing and shelter. Spiritually, who are the poor? The humble, those seeking forgiveness, those seeking to be able to dine with God. What do we do when the spiritually poor seek forgiveness? We punish them; we mete out probation, disfellowshipment, excommunication. We deny the Sacrament; they are unable to partake of the Lord's supper!! We deny them the spiritual nourishment they need. They aren't able to "sit" at the table where others of costly apparel (who do they spiritually represent? The already forgiven whom we allow to partake of the Sacrament?).

Faith without works....the works not only represented by physical actions, but also spiritual intent (becoming truly Christ-like wherein He forgave ALL---even those who crucified Him)....is dead.

My experience has been that when we have disobeyed long enough, we can see that doing things "our way" doesn't work. but the desire to continue to do things our way remains. Even if we obey, it is reluctantly, grudgingly.

We can pray to have the Lord change our desires to conform with His desires. I think this is part of the broken heart and the contrite spirit. If we are sincere and this desire the Lord does grant us that change of heart. We still can be tempted and in fact still can and will fall short, but the desire is to do the right, we are obeying and happy to obey, and immediately remorseful when we fall short.

Thank you all for your replies.

Well as for my Baptist friend, when you have been changed by God through your faith in Christ then your actions (or works) afterwards will reflect that change. What happens if after you have been "saved by God's grace", you still find your actions aren't perfect? From the best that I can make of it, it means for them either two things: A) it is evidence that you weren't truly forgiven (or saved) in the first place or B) It's okay because you aren't going to be perfect and God's grace will cover you. For those, you still desire to be good, but repentance is merely a good habit, and not essential for salvation.

What I tried to explain to her was that for us to access or claim God's grace for ourselves, we must repent. In that way, repentance is essential for salvation. She could not except that. She said that salvation was free (which includes doing nothing to merit or earn it) and that God called ("saved") the worst of sinners, Paul, before he changed.

So coming back to the quote

We can change our behavior. Our very desires can change. How? There is only one way. True change—permanent change—can come only through the healing, cleansing, and enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He loves you—each of you! He allows you to access His power as you keep His commandments, eagerly, earnestly, and exactly. It is that simple and certain. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of change! (Russell M. Nelson, General Conference Oct. 2013)

I don't know if the analogy of the piano teacher fully covers what the atonement does for us. It seems to say if you keep trying that's okay. When we go before God, is it enough to say, "I tried to change, but I never really fully changed."? Perhaps, I guess God's the judge of how much we tried.

Here Elder Nelson talks about God's grace, not at the end of the road, when we stand before the judgment seat, but during our lives. Within the atonement of Christ there is an enabling power to change our behavior. While I do agree that the light of the gospel, gives us the desire to live the commandments, Elder Nelson says that you have "access to His power as you keep His commandments, eagerly, earnestly, and exactly." Meaning it's not enough to receive the light but we must act upon it. This is where I guess I'm tripping up at. If you want to have the enabling power of God to change, you must first change.

Does everything I've said fit together or is this all incoherent rambling?

Iaronius- That's basically the conundrum I'm trying to describe and understand. There may be a person so caught up in sin, that he needs God's grace or enabling power to save him -to change him. So that he can go from being a sinner to a saint. But if the requirement is to be obedient to the very commandments he's trying to over come in order to receive God's grace how can he ever change?

DannyK- I like the analogy, I mean who can argue when a general authority speaks. It seems to suggest though that it's okay if you never in the end fully change as long as we keep trying, because full change isn't going to happen until we die and we get wrapped up in God's grace. But Elder Nelson is speaking about a true and permanent change in our behavior here on earth. What does Elder Nelson mean when he says we can have "a true -permanent change"?

Ajax- I agree that some elements of God's grace is always with us. The air we breathe as you say is an example of God's Grace to us. Every day God gives us to live is God's grace bestowed on us to give us the opportunity to repent. Elder Nelson says that some aspects of God's grace is conditioned upon obedience to the commandments. The enabling power of the atonement to change permanently, is one of them... That's what I'm trying to understand. How can that be?

SpeedRacer- I like talking to people who are not LDS about their faith because it makes me think about what is it that I believe. I'm hoping that there is some relationship between my conversation with her and the quote by Elder Nelson. At the time, it seemed like there was which is why I included it. It seemed like there was some aspect of the atonement that she was missing. I think my line of thinking was that we find God's grace within repentance. As I looked into it more it seems we also need God's grace TO repent.

Videre- Faith and works are strongly connected. Faith always leads to Good works and Good works sometimes (or always?) leads to faith. would you agree?

Original_Intent wrote:My experience has been that when we have disobeyed long enough, we can see that doing things "our way" doesn't work. but the desire to continue to do things our way remains. Even if we obey, it is reluctantly, grudgingly.

We can pray to have the Lord change our desires to conform with His desires. I think this is part of the broken heart and the contrite spirit. If we are sincere and this desire the Lord does grant us that change of heart. We still can be tempted and in fact still can and will fall short, but the desire is to do the right, we are obeying and happy to obey, and immediately remorseful when we fall short.

OI- This is mostlikely what Elder Nelson meant by it.

The grace of God, that grace which changes our heart, comes after a trial of our faith.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Repentance and baptism are works--they are the fruits of faith. There are many more fruits of faith.

My approach is a little different. I see "atonement" in its literal definition: "to be at one with god/God." If atonement is viewed as a “principle” “innate” to all people, it has potential that we all have access to and is no respecter of persons.

I see the universe organized by beings (gods/Gods) who understood “atonement” in its literal sense/definition: “to be at one with god/God.” They viewed atonement as an “innate principle” that all had access to. Christ accessed this principle fully as a mortal and said: “come follow me.” This process is called the “grace” of god/God and we are each literally saved by this grace. We are each accountable to access this ourselves; and we each do according to our beliefs, called: “telestial,” “terrestrial,” or “celestial” beliefs.

I use the words “god/God” to show this potential in us. The little (“god”) is our potential to “become” godly in our thoughts, words and deeds (which shapes our character). The big (“God”) is a representation of those who have “become” “Gods” in the full sense of the word by manifesting the little “god” in there character!

I see “changing behavior” was the whole reason for the restoration. In other words, in order to “change behavior” we must be “taught” and come to “understand” there are “two behaviors” present in us all...(opposition in all things). One is the “natural man,” the “carnal man,” who is an enemy to god/God. And the other one is the “godly man” who is a partaker of “divine nature,” the “fruits of the Spirit,” “righteousness,” “holiness of character…” this is our “holy place” which is always present in us and it remains “holy” always… it can never be destroyed or abused… it always retains its “holiness” within us. It is up to each of us to find this place and become “one” with it; for this is “atonement” in its purity and simple-ness, that a child could understand. Ultimately our “holy place,” will bring us to a “face to face” with god/God, who will declare to us with His own voice, these words: “Well done, thou good and faithful servant,” enter thou into the rest of my Father.

It should be noted that "atonement" embraces all the divine attributes and character of god/God; including mercy and justice as recorded in Lectures on Faith.

laronius wrote:Excellent question firefly. I have often thought about this same seeming conundrum. For example, we learn in the BofM that we are saved by grace after all we can do. But then I would think, in any given situation I have the ability to choose right from wrong, so if I choose wrong then I haven't done all I can do. But if I always chose right than I wouldn't need the grace of God, but of course I don't always choose right so salvation seems impossible.

What I have come to learn though is that "all we can do" does not preceed the granting of grace. The word "after" in "after all we can do" kind of throws us off. But the grace of God is always available for us to use. But it does not save us until "after" we use it. For example, with prayer, the scriptures, and the Holy Ghost I have access to great power and strength to help me make good choices. But if I don't use them I am not doing all I can do and can therefore expect no additional help from the Lord because I am rejecting what he is already offering.

Also, I think one of the disconnects when speaking with evangelicals is the use of jargon. When we speak of salvation we are speaking of two entirely different things. Their view of salvation is actually more like our view of the terrestrial kingdom than the celestial kingdom. To us salvation/exaltation is not just a place but a way of being. That's why works are so important, not that they save us, but because good works and a good heart are the signs of what we are. No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God and until we have become purified of all ungodly desires we cannot dwell with him.

Stephen E Robinson, in his book, Believing Christ, describes "after all we can do" this way:

He says that we might assume that grace is offered only chronologically after we have completed all we can do. Then he goes on to say that this notion is false, because we have already experienced many manifestations of grace before coming to this point. He says by God's grace we live and breath, and that by grace we are spiritually begotten children of God, plus other examples. Grace was with us, has been there for our spiritual progression, from the beginning and will be in the end. He goes on to say that grace is not to be thought of as a cherry on top added at the last moment as a mere finishing touch to what we have already accomplished. He says our efforts are the cherry on top added to all that God has done for us. He says that "after" is a preposition of separation rather than a preposition of time.
We are saved by grace "apart from all we can do" or "all we can do notwithstanding" or even "regardless of all we can do." He further says, Another way to look at is this: "We are still saved by grace, after all is said and done."
He continues by saying, even the phrase "all we can do" is susceptible to sinister interpretation as meaning every single good deed we could conceivably have ever done. He says this is nonsense. If grace could only operate in such cases, no one could ever be saved, not even the best among us. It is because we sin that we need a Savior in the first place, so obviously we can't make doing everything we could have done a condition for receiving grace and being saved. He says the key word is "we" "all we can do" as opposed to all He can do. We can look at this this sense: "everything we can do" or even "whatever we can do."
He says we are saved apart from whatsoever we manage to do. Grace is not merely a decorative touch or a finishing bit of trim to top off our own efforts---it is God's participation in the process of our salvation from its beginning to end. He further says: though we must be intimately involved in the process of our salvation, in the long run the success of that venture is utterly dependent upon the grace of Christ.

There's much more to this, but get the book "Believing Christ" and find treasures of knowledge. BTW, as I have stated before, his writings are in the Ensign, 1992

freedomfighter wrote:

laronius wrote:Excellent question firefly. I have often thought about this same seeming conundrum. For example, we learn in the BofM that we are saved by grace after all we can do. But then I would think, in any given situation I have the ability to choose right from wrong, so if I choose wrong then I haven't done all I can do. But if I always chose right than I wouldn't need the grace of God, but of course I don't always choose right so salvation seems impossible.

What I have come to learn though is that "all we can do" does not preceed the granting of grace. The word "after" in "after all we can do" kind of throws us off. But the grace of God is always available for us to use. But it does not save us until "after" we use it. For example, with prayer, the scriptures, and the Holy Ghost I have access to great power and strength to help me make good choices. But if I don't use them I am not doing all I can do and can therefore expect no additional help from the Lord because I am rejecting what he is already offering.

Also, I think one of the disconnects when speaking with evangelicals is the use of jargon. When we speak of salvation we are speaking of two entirely different things. Their view of salvation is actually more like our view of the terrestrial kingdom than the celestial kingdom. To us salvation/exaltation is not just a place but a way of being. That's why works are so important, not that they save us, but because good works and a good heart are the signs of what we are. No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God and until we have become purified of all ungodly desires we cannot dwell with him.

Stephen E Robinson, in his book, Believing Christ, describes "after all we can do" this way:

He says that we might assume that grace is offered only chronologically after we have completed all we can do. Then he goes on to say that this notion is false, because we have already experienced many manifestations of grace before coming to this point. He says by God's grace we live and breath, and that by grace we are spiritually begotten children of God, plus other examples. Grace was with us, has been there for our spiritual progression, from the beginning and will be in the end. He goes on to say that grace is not to be thought of as a cherry on top added at the last moment as a mere finishing touch to what we have already accomplished. He says our efforts are the cherry on top added to all that God has done for us. He says that "after" is a preposition of separation rather than a preposition of time.
We are saved by grace "apart from all we can do" or "all we can do notwithstanding" or even "regardless of all we can do." He further says, Another way to look at is this: "We are still saved by grace, after all is said and done."
He continues by saying, even the phrase "all we can do" is susceptible to sinister interpretation as meaning every single good deed we could conceivably have ever done. He says this is nonsense. If grace could only operate in such cases, no one could ever be saved, not even the best among us. It is because we sin that we need a Savior in the first place, so obviously we can't make doing everything we could have done a condition for receiving grace and being saved. He says the key word is "we" "all we can do" as opposed to all He can do. We can look at this this sense: "everything we can do" or even "whatever we can do."
He says we are saved apart from whatsoever we manage to do. Grace is not merely a decorative touch or a finishing bit of trim to top off our own efforts---it is God's participation in the process of our salvation from its beginning to end. He further says: though we must be intimately involved in the process of our salvation, in the long run the success of that venture is utterly dependent upon the grace of Christ.

There's much more to this, but get the book "Believing Christ" and find treasures of knowledge. BTW, as I have stated before, his writings are in the Ensign, 1992

Yes, I agree with Stephen E Robinson, and yes his books are excellent. I guess the point I was trying to emphasize was that there is much we can and are expected to do in terms of works. And while at the end of the day no amount of "doing" on our part can save us, it is in the doing that we become more Christlike. It is only while putting forth our best efforts that God extends his grace and makes us capable of so much more than we ever are by ourselves. We cannot wait until we are perfect to act, rather we must act and in the process be made perfect.

I beg the forum's forgiveness.

The answer to the OP is in these two papers.

The True Points of My Doctrine

Cry Redemption

Both of these papers should be read together, as together they give the doctrine, as well as how the doctrine is applied.

Both of them are distillations of the Book of Mormon.

log wrote:I beg the forum's forgiveness.

The answer to the OP is in these two papers.

The True Points of My Doctrine

Cry Redemption

Both of these papers should be read together, as together they give the doctrine, as well as how the doctrine is applied.

Both of them are distillations of the Book of Mormon.

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