LDS Freedom Forum

The first principle of the gospel is not “faith.” The first principle of the gospel is “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”. . . . Faith does not exist by itself. Faith requires an object. It must be faith in something or someone.

In that respect, faith is like love. Love cannot exist without an object.

All of us exercise faith. If we expect the sun to rise in the morning, we have faith in it. If we expect our spouses to come home every night, we have faith in them. Faith is the first principle of the doctrine of Jesus Christ and the foundation of all righteousness.

Faith is the guiding force of all action. If you believe your spouse is going to come home everyday, you will prepare for that. You will do what you feel you need to prepare for you spouse's homecoming.

When we exercise faith in our spouses, we can expect the range of possibilities that our spouses are capable of providing. They might have an accident and not come home at night. Our spouse's limitations might limit the things that we can expect from them.

When we exercise faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, we can expect the range of possibilities that the Lord is capable of providing. We can expect that ourselves, our spouses, and all our loved ones will rise from the dead. We can expect that all heartbreaks, all tribulations, all trials will be overcome.

Agreed. Furthermore, we can expect the ministering of angels and we can expect to part the veil and receive our Savior as our Second Comforter as we have received angels, His servants, who bring us to Him.

very good comments.

The first principle of the gospel is that we may converse with the lord.

King follet discourse, he explains what this faith is to be or the effects of such faith,

It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

This is the faith we must have in JC.

That is the best explanation about why faith requires action that I've ever heard. Thank you so much for sharing that!

TZONE wrote:very good comments.

The first principle of the gospel is that we may converse with the lord.

King follet discourse, he explains what this faith is to be or the effects of such faith,

It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

This is the faith we must have in JC.

Interesting. So is faith and knowing for a certainty the character of God the same thing?

TBMormon wrote:

TZONE wrote:very good comments.

The first principle of the gospel is that we may converse with the lord.

King follet discourse, he explains what this faith is to be or the effects of such faith,

It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

This is the faith we must have in JC.

Interesting. So is faith and knowing for a certainty the character of God the same thing?

Here are some thoughts from our scriptures regarding faith.

Seventh Lecture on Faith

for there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him—knowledge implies more than faith.

For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto — revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every necessary thing, in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected, and obtain salvation;

We often confuse belief with faith. We can believe that God exists, but when we have true faith, it is accompanied by the knowledge of God, as in revelations, dreams, visions, and according to Mormon, angels that appear and minister to you. Think of it this way, faith has fruits. The fruit of faith is seen by a literal opening of the heavens. (D&C 107:19)

In order to have the faith spoken of here, we must have a correct idea of the character, perfections, and attributes of God. That is why the doctrine found in the Lectures on Faith is so important. We are taught most plainly about the Godhead, in fact I'd say the teachings are more plain and clear on the Godhead in the Lectures than in any other scripture.

Elder Oaks wrote: The first principle of the gospel is not “faith.” The first principle of the gospel is “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”. . . . Faith does not exist by itself. Faith requires an object. It must be faith in something or someone.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. Let me know what you think of these statements from the Lectures on Faith, Lecture one.

LoF 1:9-13 wrote:
9...[faith is] the principle of action in all intelligent beings.

10. If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them; that without it both mind and body would be in a state of inactivity, and all their exertions would cease, both physical and mental.

11. ...Would you have ever planted, if you had not believed that you would gather?...

13. As we receive by faith all temporal blessings that we do receive, so we in like manner receive by faith all spiritual blessings that we do receive. ...

Q. Is not faith the principle of action in spiritual things as well as in temporal?
A. It is.

It seems by this definition that even those who don't even know Christ exists still exercise faith, or else they would not even move. I agree however, that faith is in Jesus Christ as far as the Gospel goes. But I do wonder, who does God have faith in, as it was by faith that the world was created?

LoF 1:15 wrote:15. By this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, exist by reason of faith as it existed in HIM.

Sariel wrote:

Elder Oaks wrote: The first principle of the gospel is not “faith.” The first principle of the gospel is “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”. . . . Faith does not exist by itself. Faith requires an object. It must be faith in something or someone.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. Let me know what you think of these statements from the Lectures on Faith, Lecture one.

LoF 1:9-13 wrote:
9...[faith is] the principle of action in all intelligent beings.

10. If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them; that without it both mind and body would be in a state of inactivity, and all their exertions would cease, both physical and mental.

11. ...Would you have ever planted, if you had not believed that you would gather?...

13. As we receive by faith all temporal blessings that we do receive, so we in like manner receive by faith all spiritual blessings that we do receive. ...

Q. Is not faith the principle of action in spiritual things as well as in temporal?
A. It is.

It seems by this definition that even those who don't even know Christ exists still exercise faith, or else they would not even move. I agree however, that faith is in Jesus Christ as far as the Gospel goes. But I do wonder, who does God have faith in, as it was by faith that the world was created?

LoF 1:15 wrote:15. By this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, exist by reason of faith as it existed in HIM.

Add to it Lecture 2.2:

2 We here observe that God is the only supreme governor, and independent being, in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicient; without beginning of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift, and every good principle dwells; and that he is the Father of lights: In him the principle of faith dwells independently; and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers, for life and salvation.

Independent vs dependent?

We discussed it a bit on this thread:
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stillwater gave some insight:

stillwater wrote:

ajax wrote:Just started Lecture 2.

Pondering this (don't quite understand):

2. In him(God) the principle of faith dwells independently...

57. Question. Is there a being who has faith in himself independently?
Answer. There is.

58. Q. Who is it?
A. It is God.

59. Q. How do you prove that God has faith in himself independently?
A. Because he is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicient; without beginning of days or end of life, and in him all fulness dwells. Eph. 1:23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Col. 1:19. For it pleased the Father, that in him should all fulness dwell. (2:2.)

I think it is related to this:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

God is the source of light and life,

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

We are dependent on him moment by moment, and He must be the object of our faith. He, on the other hand, doesn't need to have faith in any power but His own.

Sariel wrote:

Elder Oaks wrote: The first principle of the gospel is not “faith.” The first principle of the gospel is “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”. . . . Faith does not exist by itself. Faith requires an object. It must be faith in something or someone.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. Let me know what you think of these statements from the Lectures on Faith, Lecture one.

LoF 1:9-13 wrote:
9...[faith is] the principle of action in all intelligent beings.

10. If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them; that without it both mind and body would be in a state of inactivity, and all their exertions would cease, both physical and mental.

11. ...Would you have ever planted, if you had not believed that you would gather?...

13. As we receive by faith all temporal blessings that we do receive, so we in like manner receive by faith all spiritual blessings that we do receive. ...

Q. Is not faith the principle of action in spiritual things as well as in temporal?
A. It is.

It seems by this definition that even those who don't even know Christ exists still exercise faith, or else they would not even move. I agree however, that faith is in Jesus Christ as far as the Gospel goes. But I do wonder, who does God have faith in, as it was by faith that the world was created?

LoF 1:15 wrote:15. By this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, exist by reason of faith as it existed in HIM.

I think Oaks' point was that faith is the first principles of the gospel and you need to have faith in Christ to progress spiritually. But that doesn't mean that no one who isn't exercising faith has no power whatsoever. They exercise faith in other things, like in the process of planting seeds and growing them. I would say that if people are living and breathing without having faith in Christ it would be because they have faith in themselves. They believe they can move so they can. But I don't know that they can return to live with Heavenly Father unless they have faith in Jesus Christ.

Faith is the first principle OF THE GOSPEL, specifically. Faith can be exercised in all other applications, but in the context of the gospel, faith is the first principle. In the gospel, faith must be centered first in Christ because the gospel is defined as his death burial and resurrection. In other words,the first principle of the gospel is faith in the resurrection and atonement of Christ.