LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 7:33 am**

Kent wrote:Point one finger and four are pointing back at you, davedan.

Three, actually - unless your are the six fingered man.

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 7:40 am**

Hello! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 9:01 am**

Original_Intent wrote:
Kent wrote:Point one finger and four are pointing back at you, davedan.
Three, actually - unless your are the six fingered man.

Or you have a double jointed thumb..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8igaL0w6cR ... igaL0w6cRM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 1:02 pm**

katmr wrote:
davedan wrote:I can't speak for what you do personally. True

I am not entitled to receive revelation for the Church. I consented that the 12 Apostles make these decisions. They made their decision. Yes, and I've made mine as the spirit has born witness to me that this decision is in error with God's doctrine.I will trust they made an inspired decision.

Even if I decided to personally pull my kids out of BSA, I would not publically criticize the decision for the Church that was not mine to make. I gave my consent. I have no stewardship for the Church. Very true which is why I don't publically criticize the decision of the church. Voicing concern on an internet forum anonymously is a far cry from public criticism.

I might pull my kids out of BSA but I wouldnt undermine the Brethren by publicizing my differing viewpoint.
There is nothing in the gospel that says it is not okay to share different viewpoints. It is possible to share a differing viewpoint without criticism. Agreeing to disagree does not = criticism. That crosses the line, for me.

You can receive inspired direction for you and your stewardship. No one else.
Exactly, which is what I have done for my family. Thank you.

I don't think you can get any more PUBLIC (referring to 2nd paragraph above) than the internet!!!

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 1:24 pm**

natasha wrote:
katmr wrote:
davedan wrote:I can't speak for what you do personally. True

I am not entitled to receive revelation for the Church. I consented that the 12 Apostles make these decisions. They made their decision. Yes, and I've made mine as the spirit has born witness to me that this decision is in error with God's doctrine.I will trust they made an inspired decision.

Even if I decided to personally pull my kids out of BSA, I would not publically criticize the decision for the Church that was not mine to make. I gave my consent. I have no stewardship for the Church. Very true which is why I don't publically criticize the decision of the church. Voicing concern on an internet forum anonymously is a far cry from public criticism.

I might pull my kids out of BSA but I wouldnt undermine the Brethren by publicizing my differing viewpoint.
There is nothing in the gospel that says it is not okay to share different viewpoints. It is possible to share a differing viewpoint without criticism. Agreeing to disagree does not = criticism. That crosses the line, for me.

You can receive inspired direction for you and your stewardship. No one else.
Exactly, which is what I have done for my family. Thank you.
I don't think you can get any more PUBLIC (referring to 2nd paragraph above) than the internet!!!

You're entitled to your opinion and that's all it is really. I have not criticized but shared my point of view. Thank you for sharing yours.

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 1:26 pm**

Katmr, I did not intend to "ruffle your feathers"...I just wanted to make a point that you can't get anymore PUBLIC than the internet.

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 1:33 pm**

natasha wrote:Katmr, I did not intend to "ruffle your feathers"...I just wanted to make a point that you can't get anymore PUBLIC than the internet.

I assure you that my feathers aren't ruffled because first of all I'm a human not a bird, lol. Truly there was no offense taken. I see your point but I view it differently. First of all I don't view anything I've said as criticism. I view what I have said as my personal viewpoint on the matter and I find nothing wrong in sharing that viewpoint, even if it is publically under other people's POV. I have no criticism for the brethren. I have plenty to worry about myself. Disagreement doles not = criticism. I think many confuse that matter. There have been times when even the general authorities have not all been in the same agreement on things but that does not = criticism of each other.

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 1:44 pm**

keep the faith wrote:
Original_Intent wrote:
Kent wrote:Point one finger and four are pointing back at you, davedan.
Three, actually - unless your are the six fingered man.

Or you have a double jointed thumb..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8igaL0w6cR ... igaL0w6cRM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HA!

When I point my finger my other fingers are curled into my palm like I am making a fist, so no fingers point back at me.

I am in the position and I have heard rumor from the higher ups that the Boy Scouts conformed to meet the church standards already in place.

To the original post - I think it's a fine line but there is a key to this. There are some members that constantly watch the ark just knowing it's going to fall or could fall with one misstep. These people watch every movement, dip, bend, turn and wobble. They get so focused on the ark that they don't watch where they are going and often come close to and sometimes do fall off the cliff and go crashing down.

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 1:49 pm**

HA!

When I point my finger my other fingers are curled into my palm like I am making a fist, so no fingers point back at me.

I am in the position and I have heard rumor from the higher ups that the Boy Scouts conformed to meet the church standards already in place.

To the original post - I think it's a fine line but there is a key to this. There are some members that constantly watch the ark just knowing it's going to fall or could fall with one misstep. These people watch every movement, dip, bend, turn and wobble. They get so focused on the ark that they don't watch where they are going and often come close to and sometimes do fall off the cliff and go crashing down.[/quote]
That's an interesting rumor e-eye. Do you know if they BSA is ready to publically declare that stance just like they declared "it's okay to be openly gay?" That would be wonderful if they saw their error, were ready to conform to meet church standards and were willing to announce it so that people can know they are firmly for raising morally straight young men rather than issuing statements that conflict with God's laws on morality. If so, that's great news.

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 1:57 pm**

katmr wrote:HA!

When I point my finger my other fingers are curled into my palm like I am making a fist, so no fingers point back at me.

I am in the position and I have heard rumor from the higher ups that the Boy Scouts conformed to meet the church standards already in place.

To the original post - I think it's a fine line but there is a key to this. There are some members that constantly watch the ark just knowing it's going to fall or could fall with one misstep. These people watch every movement, dip, bend, turn and wobble. They get so focused on the ark that they don't watch where they are going and often come close to and sometimes do fall off the cliff and go crashing down.

That's an interesting rumor e-eye. Do you know if they BSA is ready to publically declare that stance just like they declared "it's okay to be openly gay?" That would be wonderful if they saw their error, were ready to conform to meet church standards and were willing to announce it so that people can know they are firmly for raising morally straight young men rather than issuing statements that conflict with God's laws on morality. If so, that's great news.[/quote]

Rumor only. Satan would love to have us out of Boy Scouts. Don't get me wrong I think the church if needed could do their own program as good and better. However, one of the things scouting does is give missionary opportunities to others. I have seen so many boys join lds troops it's one of the best missionary tools we have as a church and that is why Satan is seeking to destroy it or separate it from the church. I didn't care for scouts as a kid I stopped doing it at about 13 but I can see the benefits of scouting despite the weaknesses

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 2:08 pm**

e-eye wrote:
katmr wrote:HA!

When I point my finger my other fingers are curled into my palm like I am making a fist, so no fingers point back at me.

I am in the position and I have heard rumor from the higher ups that the Boy Scouts conformed to meet the church standards already in place.

To the original post - I think it's a fine line but there is a key to this. There are some members that constantly watch the ark just knowing it's going to fall or could fall with one misstep. These people watch every movement, dip, bend, turn and wobble. They get so focused on the ark that they don't watch where they are going and often come close to and sometimes do fall off the cliff and go crashing down.
That's an interesting rumor e-eye. Do you know if they BSA is ready to publically declare that stance just like they declared "it's okay to be openly gay?" That would be wonderful if they saw their error, were ready to conform to meet church standards and were willing to announce it so that people can know they are firmly for raising morally straight young men rather than issuing statements that conflict with God's laws on morality. If so, that's great news.

Rumor only. Satan would love to have us out of Boy Scouts. Don't get me wrong I think the church if needed could do their own program as good and better. However, one of the things scouting does is give missionary opportunities to others. I have seen so many boys join lds troops it's one of the best missionary tools we have as a church and that is why Satan is seeking to destroy it or separate it from the church. I didn't care for scouts as a kid I stopped doing it at about 13 but I can see the benefits of scouting despite the weaknesses[/quote].

Gotta love those rumors. Scouting never was part of the church/gospel. It is a program separate from the church that the church has decided to participate in. People now for some reason seem to believe that the program is part of the gospel.
I think the best missionary tool we have as a church is 'every member a missionary.' Missionary work is not dependent upon the BSA. I'm not saying the scouting program has never had benefits or helped develop young men or even provided missionary opportunities. I personally believe that it's time to draw lines on different programs when they choose to embrace views on morality contrary to Gods doctrine and morally confusing to young developing boys.

Posted: **October 28th, 2013, 2:32 pm**

keep the faith wrote:
Original_Intent wrote:
Kent wrote:Point one finger and four are pointing back at you, davedan.
Three, actually - unless your are the six fingered man.

Or you have a double jointed thumb..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8igaL0w6cR ... igaL0w6cRM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You mean everyone isn't double jointed?! Thanks Mark!

Posted: **October 31st, 2013, 11:38 am**

katmr wrote:
e-eye wrote:
katmr wrote:HA!

When I point my finger my other fingers are curled into my palm like I am making a fist, so no fingers point back at me.

I am in the position and I have heard rumor from the higher ups that the Boy Scouts conformed to meet the church standards already in place.

To the original post - I think it's a fine line but there is a key to this. There are some members that constantly watch the ark just knowing it's going to fall or could fall with one misstep. These people watch every movement, dip, bend, turn and wobble. They get so focused on the ark that they don't watch where they are going and often come close to and sometimes do fall off the cliff and go crashing down.
That's an interesting rumor e-eye. Do you know if they BSA is ready to publically declare that stance just like they declared "it's okay to be openly gay?" That would be wonderful if they saw their error, were ready to conform to meet church standards and were willing to announce it so that people can know they are firmly for raising morally straight young men rather than issuing statements that conflict with God's laws on morality. If so, that's great news.
Rumor only. Satan would love to have us out of Boy Scouts. Don't get me wrong I think the church if needed could do their own program as good and better. However, one of the things scouting does is give missionary opportunities to others. I have seen so many boys join lds troops it's one of the best missionary tools we have as a church and that is why Satan is seeking to destroy it or separate it from the church. I didn't care for scouts as a kid I stopped doing it at about 13 but I can see the benefits of scouting despite the weaknesses

.

Gotta love those rumors. Scouting never was part of the church/gospel. It is a program separate from the church that the church has decided to participate in. People now for some reason seem to believe that the program is part of the gospel.
I think the best missionary tool we have as a church is 'every member a missionary.' Missionary work is not dependent upon the BSA. I'm not saying the scouting program has never had benefits or helped develop young men or even provided missionary opportunities. I personally believe that it's time to draw lines on different programs when they choose to embrace views on morality contrary to Gods doctrine and morally confusing to young developing boys.[/quote]

Scouting is one of many opportunities for members of the church to be involved in a variety of functions in the community as well as in the nation as a whole. Satan loves it more than anything when the church members don't shine a positive example, don't live as upstanding citizens, or give in to the prideful idea that they know better than God. Again, Scouting is way more positive for the church's image than most people are willing to admit. At this point it gets even better because the church decides to keep it's standards among it's chartered Scout Troops, when there's no real push or support from the National Scouting Association to do so.

Part of obeying, honoring, and sustaining the laws of the land involves being involved in the functions of community, government, and other organizations in the nation. A lot of the lapse in Anti-Mormonism from the 19th century is thanks to the fact that members of the church, in a large part, aren't the kinds of people who isolate themselves, say nothing, and cut themselves off completely from the world. As the old saying goes, "In the World, but not of it."

Personally, Scouting is an opportunity that shows and demonstrates to a lot of young men the reality of the kind of person they are, and how they exemplify the church. Especially in situations that you have here on the East Coast of the United States, where you have troops that, while chartered to Wards, contain both member and nonmember scouts and even leaders. It's reality, and it's something that demonstrates to a lot of these young men that you are a member in a nonmember world, you cast a representation of the church and the restored gospel, and you have the opportunity to work, and get somewhat of a grip on what it means to be a grown man. The fact that the church decides to keep it's own chastity standards in scouting makes it even better.

Posted: **October 31st, 2013, 11:48 am**

davedan wrote:How do we balance, not coming out in open criticism (evil speaking) of current LDS Church leadership and seeking to steady the ark vs. not saying 'all is well in Zion?" I think the issue with not saying "all is well in Zion" is not a free pass to criticize LDS Leadership but to, realize our ship hasn't yet arrived.

Is is alright to Second Guess and Monday Morning Quarterback the Brethern? No! But instead of murmuring, we should realize we still have a lot of sailing to do. Then, instead of being at ease sunbathing on the deck, we are helping to clean the decks and to hoist and trim the mainsail.

Do we think that the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, that that the current apostasy is enveloped the LDS Church and the Gentiles have lost Zion? Do we think and that the "One mighty and strong" will show up, and all those who are true followers of Christ will then abandon the LDS Church and follow after this new messiah (Samuel the Lamanite type)? Isaiah 19 fortells I believe that the Gentiles will repent and America will be healed..

Christ did criticize the Pharisees. However, Christ can judge whomever he wishes and Pharisees were Jewish intellectuals and not ordained to administer the Law of Moses. Pharisees were not the political or religious rulers of the people.

Kaleb and Joshua gave a positive report of the Land of Israel, while the leaders of the other tribes gave negative reports. We know that we should be like Kaleb and Joshua.

Paul called Ananias a "whited wall" not knowing who had struck him. Once Paul knew it was Ananias the High Priest (legitamate or not), Paul immediately apoligized saying "Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people."

Doubting is negative and fear-based, and says that I will not obey unless I understand first. Rightous questioning is submitting to God's priesthood authority and obeying first waiting patiently for the witnness that comes after the trial of our faith.

Judge not that ye be not judged.

Wo, unto those who say 'All is well in Zion, Zion prospereth". (ie don't assume our ship has arrived)

Do not steady the ark (D&C 85:8) or risk having your name removed from the Book of Life.

It usually comes down to a simple question, are we really trying to help the remainder of people in the church in their aim to be closer to God, or are we trying to help our own pride. Uzziah deliberately disobeyed God in having the Ark moved by cart when he should have carried it, as a Levite trained to do it from a young age, by the rods. If this was cart on wheels, he was putting it on a shaky mode of transportation, which became a self-fulfilling prophecy when he touched the main body of the ark to steady it, and he died.

Of course, there is no such thing as not judging at all, it is better explained as judge as we would have God judge us.

IIRC, the Pharisees were likely not Levites neccessarily. But the big thing was the fact that Christ pointed out a great deal of disobedience to the law in how they operated. Their taking of the woman in adultery was a violation of the Law of Moses which dictated that both participants involved in the act were to be taken to share the same punishment. If they took her right out of committing the act, they saw the man involved, and in disobedience to the Law of Moses, they let him go free. Something that I think people forget about the Law of Moses is that under that Law, people actually had rights, and you needed a burden of proof, and proper execution the law for it to be legit. Did a lot of unchaste individuals, murderers, etc. get away with their crimes, can plenty of people today sometimes not get caught for a while, or even while alive, by the church disciplinary system? Yes, especially if they were discrete enough so that they didn't have witnesses to the act. But that is the important part about the Law that God would have carried out among his chosen people, a law which runs on a form of due process, and which is properly carried out.

The interesting thing about the Pharisees is that they essentially steadied the ark, and went rather obssessively out to stop Jesus while disregarding the law in the process.

Posted: **October 31st, 2013, 11:59 am**

davedan wrote:The BSA decision was really a win for the LDS Church. The decision to accept gay boys as members was only a ploy to pacify the liberal media.

What the liberals wanted was to approve gay leaders The LDS Church would not budge on that. LDS would never stand to have gay BSA leaders.

It is already LDS Church policy that gay boys can participate in BSA because in reality, Young boys may go through stages of same-gender attraction but they are not actively gay.

"A Boy Scout keeps himself morally straight " LDS BSA troops do not allow any discussion of a sexual nature at all. With the proper leadership training, BSA Leaders can keep our troops a safe place.

Again, what the Liberal Press wanted was for BSA to accept Gay Leaders. However, what they got was acceptance of possibly gay boys. The media made this out to he a big win for Gay Rights. But it really wasn't. Nothing has changed with LDS Scouting since the decision and was really not much of anything new.

That's not even the whole story, the church's standards and rules in scouting are pretty strict regarding all chastity in general. The church's policy isn't for encouraging opposite-gender unchastity either in the program. As a Teachers' Quorum advisor, I did get called up to address in Teachers Quorum some of the language and crude humor that the boys in our quorum were using, and then to explain that they poorly exemplified the church, as well as the fact that they did a poor job representing the gospel with their actions to the nonmember scouts in our troop. In short, Scouting in a way constitutes a form of missionary prep for a lot of young men in the church, at least in my area, where your troop does have mixed member/nonmember leadership and scouts, as well as the fact that we interact regularly with troops not chartered to the church.

Posted: **October 31st, 2013, 12:11 pm**

Of course, there is no such thing as not judging at all, it is better explained as judge as we would have God judge us.

A child does not judge, but observes and accepts. A child simply experiences. Of course, it is easy to forget this fact, and, as an adult with a lifetime of judging others, and being judged, under our belt, disbelieve in the state of total innocence that a child exists in, but that is what the Atonement, and its associated rebirth, is for. (3 Nephi 11:31-40, Moses 6:64-68)

Posted: **October 31st, 2013, 1:04 pm**

katmr wrote:
davedan wrote:LDS BSA does not say its okay to be openly gay

What LDS BSA does say is if a boy has same gender attraction, he is still welcome and will be taught morality and values out of "For the Strength of Youth".

Being "openly" anything is not permissible in BSA. But we will not cast boys aside as lost or not worth the effort to reclaim.

BSA is not an elite club but part of a program to "rescue" and develop boys.
The LDS church does not own the BSA. BSA says "it's okay to be openly gay." Both the church and BSA will run into problems that I really don't have time to sit and explain but shouldn't be too hard to figure out. The church has embraced an organization that has chosen to embrace a message in opposition to the gospel and then claims that its okay to continue with the program because they love their ties to the BSA more. I really find it laugheable that they say they will teach the boys morality and out of for the strength of the youth while also supporting the message that it's okay to be openly gay. Sorry, can't have it both ways. The BSA ultimately is not what will rescue boys...the gospel of Jesus Christ will.

Yes...and maybe, just maybe...some of those boys with same sex attraction will be exposed to the Gospel. I think this is a lot of hysteria that just isn't necessary.

Posted: **October 31st, 2013, 1:51 pm**

I think a lot of people are talking about something they haven't bothered to do their homework on. The following link will take you to the BSA Membership Standards Resolution that came out of all of this. If everyone would just read it it would clear up a lot of the false accusations being spread here.

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/conten ... ution.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **November 4th, 2013, 2:33 am**

Thomas wrote:
The Pharisees were the religious leaders of the people, They did sit in Moses's seat.
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments
,
The problem I see is that any hint that the LDS people are less than perfect is taken as criticizing the brethren. Repentance cannot be undertaken by a people who think, the prophet will warn them of everything they need do.

The jews at the time of Jesus were as authorized of God as the elks club. JS teaching was very clear on the subject, and in case people can't understand his direct and simple teaching Jesus reformed a church, he did not co-opt theirs (the jews).

Posted: **November 4th, 2013, 2:48 am**

Yeah, on this "all is well in Zion" business, it seems to be yet another wildly misunderstood scripture on this forum. If you have a testimony of the Church or have some happiness in your life bizarrely you are saying that all is well in Zion. Which is facepalm worthy.

All is well in Zion of course simply means that everything will be ok because you are in zion, when that is not the case. We have to continue to progress and overcome temptation and tribulation until the Lord says enough, simply being in Zion doesn't put you on autopilot.

Posted: **November 4th, 2013, 5:55 am**

natasha wrote:
katmr wrote:
davedan wrote:LDS BSA does not say its okay to be openly gay

What LDS BSA does say is if a boy has same gender attraction, he is still welcome and will be taught morality and values out of "For the Strength of Youth".

Being "openly" anything is not permissible in BSA. But we will not cast boys aside as lost or not worth the effort to reclaim.

BSA is not an elite club but part of a program to "rescue" and develop boys.
The LDS church does not own the BSA. BSA says "it's okay to be openly gay." Both the church and BSA will run into problems that I really don't have time to sit and explain but shouldn't be too hard to figure out. The church has embraced an organization that has chosen to embrace a message in opposition to the gospel and then claims that its okay to continue with the program because they love their ties to the BSA more. I really find it laugheable that they say they will teach the boys morality and out of for the strength of the youth while also supporting the message that it's okay to be openly gay. Sorry, can't have it both ways. The BSA ultimately is not what will rescue boys...the gospel of Jesus Christ will.
Yes...and maybe, just maybe...some of those boys with same sex attraction will be exposed to the Gospel. I think this is a lot of hysteria that just isn't necessary.

You bring up a good point, how about the boys who have a single parent household who get involved in Boy Scouts, they are several in my Valley Forge Ward alone. How about the boys who have divorced parents? That's Six in My Valley Forge Ward. How about the Boys who could potentially be going down the path of drugs or gangs? Unknown, but still significant. A lot of that happens to kids when they are about the age that the boys are during their years in Boy Scouts. That's a problem that I seem to see a lot of members of the church not getting. There are a lot of boys for whom being involved with the Boy Scouts at the age that they are offers them support, role models, etc., when they could very well potentially otherwise be heading down a disturbing path

Posted: **November 4th, 2013, 5:57 am**

laronius wrote:I think a lot of people are talking about something they haven't bothered to do their homework on. The following link will take you to the BSA Membership Standards Resolution that came out of all of this. If everyone would just read it it would clear up a lot of the false accusations being spread here.

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/conten ... ution.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Indeed it will, and, as I said with Natasha, people underestimate it heavily as something helpful and positive for the church as well.

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