LDS Freedom Forum

I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, "Abba, Father!" Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for.

How is one exalted to the status of a God from before the foundation of this world? What would the status of one of these Gods be if they came to this earth? If they were a God from before the foundation of this world, what is their mission while here?


I was struck when I read this quote from Joseph Smith yesterday. I'd love to hear if anyone has thoughts regarding this quote from Joseph Smith.

To be an Adam & Eve...

To help prove and try us in all things...

Abraham 3 tells us how one becomes known as a God.

I cannot say that I know for sure what that quote means, but two scriptures that seem related come to mind:

Alma 13:3
3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

Abraham 3:23-25
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Doesn't Denver's "First Three Words" address this idea?

ARP,

I think you're right. Do you have any quotes from that talk that come to mind?


Bret,

The scriptures you quoted are right on. I love the scripture you quoted from Abraham. Thou wast chosen before thou was born. We hear the phrase to be chosen often. As in, many are called, but few are chosen. To be chosen of God is extremely significant. We should each ask God to know our standing before Him.

The scripture from Alma 13 is directly related to what Joseph was talking about.

Thank you both for your thoughts! I believe understanding what Joseph was speaking about is extremely important for our salvation.

Jesus and the Holy Ghost both attained godhood bdfore coming to this world.

mes5464 wrote:Jesus and the Holy Ghost both attained godhood bdfore coming to this world.

Correction... According to Lectures on Faith, the Holy Ghost/Spirit is not an individual, but the "mind" of God...or "oneness" that the Gods achieve in attribute and character. "Do the believers in Christ, through the gift of the Spirit, become one with the Father and the Son, as the Father and the Son are one? They do." (Lecture 5 Q&A).

How is one exalted to the status of a God from before the foundation of this world?

How do we exalt ourselves now?

SkyBird wrote:

mes5464 wrote:Jesus and the Holy Ghost both attained godhood bdfore coming to this world.

Correction... According to Lectures on Faith, the Holy Ghost/Spirit is not an individual, but the "mind" of God...or "oneness" that the Gods achieve in attribute and character. "Do the believers in Christ, through the gift of the Spirit, become one with the Father and the Son, as the Father and the Son are one? They do." (Lecture 5 Q&A).

One more correction.The holy spirit is not hte same as the holy ghost. So HS is the mind of God (LOF), Holy ghost is a personage of spirit (D&C 130).

TZONE wrote:

SkyBird wrote:

mes5464 wrote:Jesus and the Holy Ghost both attained godhood bdfore coming to this world.

Correction... According to Lectures on Faith, the Holy Ghost/Spirit is not an individual, but the "mind" of God...or "oneness" that the Gods achieve in attribute and character. "Do the believers in Christ, through the gift of the Spirit, become one with the Father and the Son, as the Father and the Son are one? They do." (Lecture 5 Q&A).

One more correction.The holy spirit is not hte same as the holy ghost. So HS is the mind of God (LOF), Holy ghost is a personage of spirit (D&C 130).

One more, more correction: The are the same!
This has been debated over and over again throughout the history of the Church by scholars. What it come down to is personal revelation. Personal revelation has taught me the HG and HS are the same and interchangeable throughout scripture because the "fruits" of the HS and HG are the "same!" But then again, the "fruits" of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the "same" as well... and so are our "fruits" when we manifest the attributes of "holy" ness and/or godliness in our lives! When it says in D&C 130: 22 that the Holy Ghost "is a personage of Spirit" to me it is referring to the attributes of godliness one can manifest in thought, word and deed. Because the next statement in D&C 130: 23 says: "A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him." This suggests to me that it is speaking of the "fruits" of the Spirit or the "fruits" of the flesh we can choose to manifest. If it is the "fruits" of the flesh we manifest then it is obvious the Holy Ghost/Spirit will "not tarry" with us.

gods is your species. You can't become a god, gods are co-existent. You either are one or you aren't.

What you become is a heavenly parent.

By the same logic that the HG and HS have same fruits therfore they are the same being you could say catholics are correct in saying the godhead is one being. As for D&C 130:23 couldn't that be referring to a spirit (personage with no body). And if the HG is actually the mind of Heavenly Father then would we be correct in saying the Godhead is made up of 3 beings? Should we start saying in actaullity there are only 2 seperate beings in the Godhead?

Jazz_Man wrote:By the same logic that the HG and HS have same fruits therfore they are the same being you could say catholics are correct in saying the godhead is one being. As for D&C 130:23 couldn't that be referring to a spirit (personage with no body). And if the HG is actually the mind of Heavenly Father then would we be correct in saying the Godhead is made up of 3 beings? Should we start saying in actaullity there are only 2 seperate beings in the Godhead?

From the Fifth Lecture on Faith written by Joseph Smith.

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things--by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space--They are the Father and the Son:

See the Lectures on Faith discussion here if you have any further comments on that. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, I'd like to get back to the main question. How did those who were Gods from before the foundation of the world achieve that status? What did they do to progress to that level?

Notice carefully how Joseph phrases this.

Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for.

Not everyone here has achieved that status. Some have, some have not. What did those who are called Gods do to receive that level of glory?

Edited for accuracy. Thanks an eye single.

Abba!!!

It doesn't say THIS world. Just sayin'.

Frederick wrote:ARP,

I think you're right. Do you have any quotes from that talk that come to mind?

In order to expose how these scriptures speak about two different groups identified them using highlighting in two different colors to make recognizing them easier. In yellow highlighting below, the group known as “the noble and great” who are later referred to as“the Gods” are identified. In the green highlighting below is the second group, who are being“proven” by the experience here in mortality. The mission assigned to each of these two groups is distinct. One is “proving” and the other is being “proven.” The import of this is so profound that we should give a great deal of attention to it. It redefines what this estate is all about. It also caused Joseph Smith to make stunning remarks to the Saints in his last public address.

Both those who are identified as “noble and great” who are also called “Gods” are mortals here in this life, as well as those who are the “spirits organized before the world was” to be proven by this life. These two very different groups are both here in this world. For those who are being “proven” this life is a probation. For the others, they are “proving” their fellowmen. The missions are quite different for these two groups. However, since there is a veil between here and there, the only way to know if you belong to one group or the other is if someone who is on the other side of the veil reveals it to you.
[Scriptures from Abraham follow. This excerpt is only a small portion of the talk, which has more words of Joseph Smith than anything else in it.]

...
[Edited to add: These scriptures below are from Alma 13, not Abraham. I wanted to make sure there was no confusion.]
3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained--being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea,with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared--6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest--7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things--

...
Joseph’s comment about those who “exalted themselves to be gods before the world began” came after the full definition of exaltation was known.

...
For those who qualified before this life to be “exalted” to meet the definition of the word, they must have been sealed into a family unit, husband and wife, possessing the capacity for the continuation of lives. This would mean, therefore, that the Elohim (being plural) included those who were parents. Parents whose decision to come here and prove their own children, required them to in turn come and minister here as servants for those children whom they hope to redeem.

...
First, there are those who were identified as “the Gods” before the world was organized.Second, there were those for whom this world was designed to be a time of “proving” and testing who were not identified as “the Gods” before the world was organized.Third, Joseph regarded those who were identified as “the Gods” to be “sons of God who exalted themselves to be gods before the world was made.”Fourth, you cannot know the group to which you belong because there is a veil between all of us and the pre-earth existence. The risks of mortality, however, are the same for all who are here. The way back is the same no matter which group you belong to, and either can fall from their exaltation or can acquire their exaltation, depending entirely upon the kind of life they live here.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/75128804/1st3Words-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Emphasis mine.

Frederick wrote:

I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, "Abba, Father!" Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for.

How is one exalted to the status of a God from before the foundation of this world? What would the status of one of these Gods be if they came to this earth? If they were a God from before the foundation of this world, what is their mission while here?


I was struck when I read this quote from Joseph Smith yesterday. I'd love to hear if anyone has thoughts regarding this quote from Joseph Smith.

This is where my thoughts are leading me. There are worlds without end. Joseph was speaking about our world...and to be even more specific, he was speaking more particularly about our current world system's allotted amount of time for existance. Progression is eternal. At given point in either "created time" (physical creation time), and "god" time (within the eternities), every spirit is at their own individuated point of progression. As such, some spirits had already progressed to the point of recognizing their own being and experiencing (personal knowing)....that they are actually gods themselves.

Let me step back for a minute. I am believing that our world----and all created worlds----exist within a subset. There are specific levels of heaven which are attached to physical worlds. Perhaps the highest heaven attached to a world like ours is the Celestial kingdom. As such, in order to get to the higher order of kingdoms, we must leave this "level" or "class" or "type" of created world.

Perhaps those gods who had progressed before the foundation of our world which Joseph was speaking about either chose to experience our world....or still had some additional learning which needed to be experienced in this type of world before they were prepared enough to actually (perhaps learning about them isn't enough...things need to be experienced in order to "know" them) get into the next higher type of world with its higher order of heavenly kingdoms attached to it. In this, they would enter this world and be able to continue their progression---even to being able to exalt themselves while they are still in this world (and Joseph felt that they were the only Gods he felt reverance for; the rest of us gods just hadn't progressed far enough yet).

Could this be describing the spirits who dwelled in the physical bodies of John the Beloved and the three Nephites? Once this current world system's time is finished, they will not be entering Christ's Celestial kingdom; they are going to enter Father's kingdom. And I have been wondering if those who are not going to be settling into Christ's kingdom ALL get to experience having their bodies change so that they can continue to keep that body in a "living" condition until such time as Christ's second coming to the physical world has been accomplished. They no longer need to experience physical death; and that this was not done for the other nine apostles. But I digress...

When Christ comes again, there is going to be a new earth, and a new heaven. So I am asking myself what does it really mean when we are told that what we bind on earth is bound in heaven....which earch? which heaven? Our current world system's earth and the heavens attached to it? Is the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise made for us to be able to get out of this current world's system? Then what of Christ's new earth and new heaven; is He getting a different earth and heaven other than this one? Will He then become an Adam for the new earth and new heaven?

What about the baptisms and ordinances being done for our dead. We have been taught that they can refuse the work. (we never lose our free agency) The sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise's sealing seems to be linked to the living; not to the dead. So why do the work for the dead. When we say it saves them; what are they being saved to? I am beginning to believe that we are able to bind and seal our ancestors to ourselves so that no matter what world system we are doing our progressing in, that we can still be together so that eventually, once we are exalted, we can continue through the eternities as a family of spirits that chose to be together before the foundation of the world. Yet, at any time, if we choose, we don't have to remain bound to them. That this is just some sort of fail safe we created for ourselves when we were in heavenly councils before the foundation of the world (meaning the foundation of this world...this earth and the heaven/heavens attached to it).

Frederick wrote:ARP,

I think you're right. Do you have any quotes from that talk that come to mind?


Bret,

The scriptures you quoted are right on. I love the scripture you quoted from Abraham. Thou wast chosen before thou was born. We hear the phrase to be chosen often. As in, many are called, but few are chosen. To be chosen of God is extremely significant. We should each ask God to know our standing before Him.

The scripture from Alma 13 is directly related to what Joseph was talking about.

Thank you both for your thoughts! I believe understanding what Joseph was speaking about is extremely important for our salvation.

How do we make sure that at some point WE become chosen!!! If it is known before the foundation of the world who was chosen, it also seems we need to understand WHY in the world (pun intended) would we agree to come here if we weren't one of the chosen?!!!

SkyBird wrote:

TZONE wrote:

SkyBird wrote: One more, more correction: The are the same!
This has been debated over and over again throughout the history of the Church by scholars. What it come down to is personal revelation. Personal revelation has taught me the HG and HS are the same and interchangeable throughout scripture because the "fruits" of the HS and HG are the "same!" But then again, the "fruits" of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are the "same" as well... and so are our "fruits" when we manifest the attributes of "holy" ness and/or godliness in our lives! When it says in D&C 130: 22 that the Holy Ghost "is a personage of Spirit" to me it is referring to the attributes of godliness one can manifest in thought, word and deed. Because the next statement in D&C 130: 23 says: "A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him." This suggests to me that it is speaking of the "fruits" of the Spirit or the "fruits" of the flesh we can choose to manifest. If it is the "fruits" of the flesh we manifest then it is obvious the Holy Ghost/Spirit will "not tarry" with us.

I am believing that the Holy Spirit can also be referring to a singular spirit or a plurality of spirits. When our own spirit is still asleep---with more darkness than light, we are pretty much an unholy spirit even though we are divine. We need a collective of "Holy" Spirit(s) to assist us...all already being One with God, and thus being the mind of God. As we awaken...more light overcoming the darkness, our spirit becomes more "Holy". At some point our spirit become as the Holy Spirit...our own spirit becoming One (actually, just remembering through our experiential knowing). One with the mind and the will of Father; a Holy Spirit who also becomes our own witness while we are still in the flesh....and the water and the blood and the Spirit all agree in One.

jo1952 wrote:

Frederick wrote:ARP,

I think you're right. Do you have any quotes from that talk that come to mind?


Bret,

The scriptures you quoted are right on. I love the scripture you quoted from Abraham. Thou wast chosen before thou was born. We hear the phrase to be chosen often. As in, many are called, but few are chosen. To be chosen of God is extremely significant. We should each ask God to know our standing before Him.

The scripture from Alma 13 is directly related to what Joseph was talking about.

Thank you both for your thoughts! I believe understanding what Joseph was speaking about is extremely important for our salvation.

How do we make sure that at some point WE become chosen!!! If it is known before the foundation of the world who was chosen, it also seems we need to understand WHY in the world (pun intended) would we agree to come here if we weren't one of the chosen?!!!

The Savior or someone else beyond the veil can reveal to you who you are.

I have had the Father declare unto me who I am and how I am related to Him. I have had angels visit me that confirm this knowledge. I have received visions, where I was taken directly into heaven that also help me to understand who I am.

I share this testimony in the hope that each of you can know you can have the same thing. These blessings of knowledge are given to all of God's children. We should all ask the Father to reveal unto each of us, who we are. My knowledge has given me tremendous strength, yet I still suffer the weaknesses of man. I think it is important to understand that each of us are in the same position of being able to stumble and fall.

Knowing who we are expands our knowledge, which is a key. The kingdom of heaven is within you. We each need to hold the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

I agree with you, there are those that are here to be proven. They chose to come here because they want to be proven. It is a chance for them to progress grace by grace, just as the Savior grew from grace to grace. As we learn these great truths, we begin to understand the true mercy in God's wisdom of providing a plan for us to learn and grow to become like Him.

Frederick wrote:

jo1952 wrote:
How do we make sure that at some point WE become chosen!!! If it is known before the foundation of the world who was chosen, it also seems we need to understand WHY in the world (pun intended) would we agree to come here if we weren't one of the chosen?!!!

The Savior or someone else beyond the veil can reveal to you who you are.

I have had the Father declare unto me who I am and how I am related to Him. I have had angels visit me that confirm this knowledge. I have received visions, where I was taken directly into heaven that also help me to understand who I am.

I share this testimony in the hope that each of you can know you can have the same thing. These blessings of knowledge are given to all of God's children. We should all ask the Father to reveal unto each of us, who we are. My knowledge has given me tremendous strength, yet I still suffer the weaknesses of man. I think it is important to understand that each of us are in the same position of being able to stumble and fall.

Knowing who we are expands our knowledge, which is a key. The kingdom of heaven is within you. We each need to hold the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

I agree with you, there are those that are here to be proven. They chose to come here because they want to be proven. It is a chance for them to progress grace by grace, just as the Savior grew from grace to grace. As we learn these great truths, we begin to understand the true mercy in God's wisdom of providing a plan for us to learn and grow to become like Him.

I have had it revealed to me who I am---but not with an experience wherein someone stood in front of me and told me, like in having a face-to-face conversation between one person and another. Mine has been an experiencing of spiritually recognizing...having a spiritual knowing and recognition of higher levels of truth. The best I can express it is receiving higher levels of pure knowledge---but the experiencing of it changes me..it is a knowing (verbal language is lacking). Wherein some say that the second comforter has come to them, and they can see and/or feel the nail marks in Christ's hands or the scar where the sword pierced His side....this is not the experience I had; or which I have confirmed to me from time to time. Yet, as a result, my spiritual knowledge continues to be opened to me in leaps and bounds. The degree of the questions I now have are of a completely different level. The way I "see" the world around me today is even different than just two months ago; and at that time I was "seeing" the world around me completely differently than say two months prior to that. It is like the difference between the light of the moon vs the stars vs the sun. And at each level of knowing and understanding I am astounded; because I thought I already was seeing the world in such a new and amazing way. So as I continue in this "ascension", even the types of questions I ask have changed...according to my continually added upon experiencing. And so even my thoughts and ponderings are now coming from a different place of perspective and spiritual knowledge.

Is this making any sense?

Even so, I am still in a body of flesh which is living in a physical world, where I am bound to the conditions of this world. I am not yet able to come and go as I believe I will be able to do at some point. The veil is a condition of the physical world; and I have not ascended to the point where I can come and go as I please without still being bound to a physical body which is subject to death. I believe that at some point, I will have had enough experiencing of the physical realm (at least this particular level or class of physical creation); and at that time I will have learned/remembered how to get completely out of created worlds. That this is just a part of what collective spirits decided to create (being a collective "One" with and as/God...as well as indivuated "One" beings); possibly for and serving a multiplicity of purposes. Because I am still in the flesh body, I still can be flooded with doubts. Wondering if what I have experienced is what I thought that I experienced. Still faced with flesh weaknesses of a body subject to time, illness, etc. And so, even with more and more truth and light, I still need to endure. But now my enduring includes the burden of wondering if I have really experienced what I thought or think I am still experiencing. My enduring, on some levels is more difficult; while in some aspects it is easier. The opposition in all things in this world never stop.

I resist believing that any One, or any plurality One, decided to create beings, or take pre-existing beings, and send them into a created world where they would be utterly destroyed and not be able to get back to the God who sent them here. I also resist believing that any spirit being would agree to go someplace that could have the chance of eventually causing their cessation of existence....or which would have the ultimate ability to cause them to suffer throughout all of the eternities. As such, I believe that fail safes have been built into the physical world and into the Plan of Salvation.

As such, we must have had full disclaimers and disclosures given to us before we would ever agree to participate in something which could cause us to cease to be; or which could cause us endless suffering just because some other being (such as "God") wanted to test us. Especially inasmuch as we are taught that this "God" has foreknowledge, He would then be privy to knowing in advance whether He was allowing us to choose to participate in our own cessation. It would be like God knowing everything in advance; but we decide to play a game of Russian Roulette just because God wants to find out if we will obey Him. No, No, No. There is more to this than we are able to access while in this created physical realm!!! And it is toward this "higher" level of thoughts that my own mind and thoughts are taking me....in fact, it is with new realization of who I am that I now ascend; but still not only from within me, but also with continuing help from without.

Frederick wrote:

What would the status of one of these Gods be if they came to this earth?

In my opinion most of these Gods would be of such valor that no matter where in the world these would have been born and no matter under what conditions they would have been born unto, these would have sought the gospel here and when hearing it would proven themselves true and faithful in all things...

It is still possible though for a God to fall.. Heavens wept over lucifer when he fell. He was a son of the morning.

jo1952 wrote:

Frederick wrote:

jo1952 wrote:
How do we make sure that at some point WE become chosen!!! If it is known before the foundation of the world who was chosen, it also seems we need to understand WHY in the world (pun intended) would we agree to come here if we weren't one of the chosen?!!!

The Savior or someone else beyond the veil can reveal to you who you are.

I have had the Father declare unto me who I am and how I am related to Him. I have had angels visit me that confirm this knowledge. I have received visions, where I was taken directly into heaven that also help me to understand who I am.

I share this testimony in the hope that each of you can know you can have the same thing. These blessings of knowledge are given to all of God's children. We should all ask the Father to reveal unto each of us, who we are. My knowledge has given me tremendous strength, yet I still suffer the weaknesses of man. I think it is important to understand that each of us are in the same position of being able to stumble and fall.

Knowing who we are expands our knowledge, which is a key. The kingdom of heaven is within you. We each need to hold the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

I agree with you, there are those that are here to be proven. They chose to come here because they want to be proven. It is a chance for them to progress grace by grace, just as the Savior grew from grace to grace. As we learn these great truths, we begin to understand the true mercy in God's wisdom of providing a plan for us to learn and grow to become like Him.

I have had it revealed to me who I am---but not with an experience wherein someone stood in front of me and told me, like in having a face-to-face conversation between one person and another. Mine has been an experiencing of spiritually recognizing...having a spiritual knowing and recognition of higher levels of truth. The best I can express it is receiving higher levels of pure knowledge---but the experiencing of it changes me..it is a knowing (verbal language is lacking). Wherein some say that the second comforter has come to them, and they can see and/or feel the nail marks in Christ's hands or the scar where the sword pierced His side....this is not the experience I had; or which I have confirmed to me from time to time. Yet, as a result, my spiritual knowledge continues to be opened to me in leaps and bounds. The degree of the questions I now have are of a completely different level. The way I "see" the world around me today is even different than just two months ago; and at that time I was "seeing" the world around me completely differently than say two months prior to that. It is like the difference between the light of the moon vs the stars vs the sun. And at each level of knowing and understanding I am astounded; because I thought I already was seeing the world in such a new and amazing way. So as I continue in this "ascension", even the types of questions I ask have changed...according to my continually added upon experiencing. And so even my thoughts and ponderings are now coming from a different place of perspective and spiritual knowledge.

Is this making any sense?

Even so, I am still in a body of flesh which is living in a physical world, where I am bound to the conditions of this world. I am not yet able to come and go as I believe I will be able to do at some point. The veil is a condition of the physical world; and I have not ascended to the point where I can come and go as I please without still being bound to a physical body which is subject to death. I believe that at some point, I will have had enough experiencing of the physical realm (at least this particular level or class of physical creation); and at that time I will have learned/remembered how to get completely out of created worlds. That this is just a part of what collective spirits decided to create (being a collective "One" with and as/God...as well as indivuated "One" beings); possibly for and serving a multiplicity of purposes. Because I am still in the flesh body, I still can be flooded with doubts. Wondering if what I have experienced is what I thought that I experienced. Still faced with flesh weaknesses of a body subject to time, illness, etc. And so, even with more and more truth and light, I still need to endure. But now my enduring includes the burden of wondering if I have really experienced what I thought or think I am still experiencing. My enduring, on some levels is more difficult; while in some aspects it is easier. The opposition in all things in this world never stop.

I resist believing that any One, or any plurality One, decided to create beings, or take pre-existing beings, and send them into a created world where they would be utterly destroyed and not be able to get back to the God who sent them here. I also resist believing that any spirit being would agree to go someplace that could have the chance of eventually causing their cessation of existence....or which would have the ultimate ability to cause them to suffer throughout all of the eternities. As such, I believe that fail safes have been built into the physical world and into the Plan of Salvation.

As such, we must have had full disclaimers and disclosures given to us before we would ever agree to participate in something which could cause us to cease to be; or which could cause us endless suffering just because some other being (such as "God") wanted to test us. Especially inasmuch as we are taught that this "God" has foreknowledge, He would then be privy to knowing in advance whether He was allowing us to choose to participate in our own cessation. It would be like God knowing everything in advance; but we decide to play a game of Russian Roulette just because God wants to find out if we will obey Him. No, No, No. There is more to this than we are able to access while in this created physical realm!!! And it is toward this "higher" level of thoughts that my own mind and thoughts are taking me....in fact, it is with new realization of who I am that I now ascend; but still not only from within me, but also with continuing help from without.

Jo… thanks for sharing, and I agree.

The spiritual reality to me is so much stronger than the physical structures and conditions played out here. We each have a “holy” place within our spirit that will always remain “pure” regardless of the tests or trials we are “forced” or by choice undergo. Regardless of what others may say we live in a “spiritually principled universe.” The God/Gods themselves are beholden to it. They have learned this truth and live within its realm. Our journey is no different than the Gods that have gone before us… it is our mission, our purpose, and our inheritance to find that “holy” place within us until we manifest it in thought, word and deed. But this is only the beginning; coming to the “god” within creates a desire to communicate through the veil, “face to face” with Christ and our Father who are outside our realm right now. Our desire should be no different than Christ’s desire… to do the will of the Father and not our own. As you have mentioned before, Christ is not our end result, but the Father experience is! The dream I shared with you teaches that truth.

The ceremonial observances of ancient Israel and modern Israel today are all pointing to this spiritual reality realm where we all came from. What dimension of “God” we became there will come into view as we approach our Father. The “only” way back to a fullness of this memory is through our “holy” place within, which if we “hunger and thrust” for will bring us to the Father… Christ showed us this path and it is all “spiritually principle based;" innately woven into the fabric of our Spirit being. All the “forms and structures” of organized religion testify of this truth if we learn to hear and see with our spiritual potential.