D&C 124:47-48 by your own works, bring cursings, wrath,...

[Frederick]

A friend of mine posted this and I thought it might be nice to post under general Gospel discussions. When I read this, I thought of the scripture from D&C 124. Honestly, I think it is important to understand see things as they were and as they are. It does not help us to promote faith building stories, if these stories are not completely accurate or true. The whole truth should be fully embraced, so that we may truly understand the messages contained in the scriptures. To understand where we are, we must know where we were.

I came across this the other day. “ONE LONG FUNERAL MARCH”: A REVISIONIST’S VIEW OF THE MORMON HANDCART DISASTERS" http://user.xmission.com/~research/central/handcart.pdf It was written by Will Bagley. I recommend you read the whole thing.

The article is quite extensive. I just wanted to throw in a few snippets which stood out to me.

"From a less millennial perspective, Mormon leaders felt a deep sympathy with their poor European converts and sought to deliver
them from the desperate conditions that Charles Dickens described so powerfully and which most of them had experienced firsthand as
missionaries. Certainly the Church’s own resources were stretched thin. The concept of the handcarts was, itself, an attempt to stretch
them further. However, one of the unforeseen negative consequences of poverty on both sides of the ocean was that Brigham Young and his agents failed to allocate enough resources to ensure that Church-supported-and-sponsored emigration was safe and successful. This article thoroughly examines the combination of ambition, mismanagement, hope, misguided faith, tightfistedness, and bad luck that took
such a toll on all ten handcart companies." p. 54

Elizabeth Camm, who watched her husband die and who amputated her own children’s feet during the Martin Company trek, felt that the missionaries tried to cheat her unbaptized husband while he was buying railroad tickets. “Oh Eliza, you have got among a bad lot,” he reproached her. “All they want is my money. God’s Servants look after the Souls of the Saints, not their purses. Haven’t you done wrong in leaving our home?” he asked. At Iowa City she watched as her treasured possessions and clothing were sold at auction for a pittance. “I noticed it was all bought mostly by Elders from the Valley, they knew the value of it in Utah—so did I when I got there with nothing to wear.” The emigration agents failed to provide the wagons they had promised to transport baggage, personal property, children, and the sick. These wagons “were all loaded with merchandise, they told us, for President Young’s store in Salt Lake,” she recalled, “but that is to his account.” p. 111

Essentially, to save money, Brigham Young resorted to turning men, women, and children into beasts of burden and created a system that exploited poor converts to Mormonism. Ultimately, it replaced draft animals with human beings and placed more value dollars on dollars than life itself. “Oh it was so hard,” said Sarah Beesley. p. 112

Taylor forthrightly identified the fundamental problem with the handcart system: it placed more value on money than on human life. By compelling inexperienced and impoverished converts to do the work of animals on starvation rations, it made overland emigration unnecessarily difficult, if not downright cruel, and led to a loss of life that is ultimately unjustifiable. p. 113

Who was to blame?

“Whether Brigham was influenced in his desire to get the poor of Europe more rapidly to Utah [or] by his sympathy with their condition, by his well-known love of power, his glory in numbers, or his love of wealth, which an increased
amount of subservient labour would enable him to acquire, is best known to himself,” wrote handcart-veteran John Chislett. “But the sad results of his Hand-Cart scheme will call for a day of reckoning in the future which he cannot evade.” p. 114

When others were starving and in dire poverty:

"Brigham Young had accumulated a personal fortune. In April 1855, “Young consecrated to himself as trustee-in-trust [of the LDSChurch] a long list of real and personal property valued at $199,625”—more than $4 million dollars in 2005—including an African servant girl worth $1,000." p. 56

During Brigham Young’s lifetime, no faithful Latter-day Saints ever wrote about the handcart disasters, leaving the story to be told by dissenters and apostates. p. 114

No one should ever discount the heroism of those who suffered or died during the handcart ordeal, or ignore the self less acts of courage by the men and boys who risked their lives to save the victims of this ill-conceived experiment. Nothing could honor that memory better than to deal with this story as honestly as the survivors did in their diaries and memoirs, which Juanita Brooks said “picture the labors and suffering of the handcart pioneers as one long torture.” It is time to honor this story and these heroic people with the truth. p. 115

[BrentL]

_____'s response: frankly this is just another not so veiled attack on the brethren, cant you see this is the result of snuffer. I have seen this happen before and its not pretty. this should be the NOMFF not LDSFF. I continue to change the subject throughout the entire thread and will never address the history presented. I for one am glad I am on the lords side. bla bla bla.

[Rose Garden]

A friend of mine posted this and I thought it might be nice to post under general Gospel discussions. When I read this, I thought of the scripture from D&C 124. Honestly, I think it is important to understand see things as they were and as they are. It does not help us to promote faith building stories, if these stories are not completely accurate or true. The whole truth should be fully embraced, so that we may truly understand the messages contained in the scriptures. To understand where we are, we must know where we were.

I came across this the other day. “ONE LONG FUNERAL MARCH”: A REVISIONIST’S VIEW OF THE MORMON HANDCART DISASTERS" http://user.xmission.com/~research/central/handcart.pdf It was written by Will Bagley. I recommend you read the whole thing.

The article is quite extensive. I just wanted to throw in a few snippets which stood out to me.

"From a less millennial perspective, Mormon leaders felt a deep sympathy with their poor European converts and sought to deliver
them from the desperate conditions that Charles Dickens described so powerfully and which most of them had experienced firsthand as
missionaries. Certainly the Church’s own resources were stretched thin. The concept of the handcarts was, itself, an attempt to stretch
them further. However, one of the unforeseen negative consequences of poverty on both sides of the ocean was that Brigham Young and his agents failed to allocate enough resources to ensure that Church-supported-and-sponsored emigration was safe and successful. This article thoroughly examines the combination of ambition, mismanagement, hope, misguided faith, tightfistedness, and bad luck that took
such a toll on all ten handcart companies." p. 54

Elizabeth Camm, who watched her husband die and who amputated her own children’s feet during the Martin Company trek, felt that the missionaries tried to cheat her unbaptized husband while he was buying railroad tickets. “Oh Eliza, you have got among a bad lot,” he reproached her. “All they want is my money. God’s Servants look after the Souls of the Saints, not their purses. Haven’t you done wrong in leaving our home?” he asked. At Iowa City she watched as her treasured possessions and clothing were sold at auction for a pittance. “I noticed it was all bought mostly by Elders from the Valley, they knew the value of it in Utah—so did I when I got there with nothing to wear.” The emigration agents failed to provide the wagons they had promised to transport baggage, personal property, children, and the sick. These wagons “were all loaded with merchandise, they told us, for President Young’s store in Salt Lake,” she recalled, “but that is to his account.” p. 111

Essentially, to save money, Brigham Young resorted to turning men, women, and children into beasts of burden and created a system that exploited poor converts to Mormonism. Ultimately, it replaced draft animals with human beings and placed more value dollars on dollars than life itself. “Oh it was so hard,” said Sarah Beesley. p. 112

Taylor forthrightly identified the fundamental problem with the handcart system: it placed more value on money than on human life. By compelling inexperienced and impoverished converts to do the work of animals on starvation rations, it made overland emigration unnecessarily difficult, if not downright cruel, and led to a loss of life that is ultimately unjustifiable. p. 113

Who was to blame?

“Whether Brigham was influenced in his desire to get the poor of Europe more rapidly to Utah [or] by his sympathy with their condition, by his well-known love of power, his glory in numbers, or his love of wealth, which an increased
amount of subservient labour would enable him to acquire, is best known to himself,” wrote handcart-veteran John Chislett. “But the sad results of his Hand-Cart scheme will call for a day of reckoning in the future which he cannot evade.” p. 114

When others were starving and in dire poverty:

"Brigham Young had accumulated a personal fortune. In April 1855, “Young consecrated to himself as trustee-in-trust [of the LDSChurch] a long list of real and personal property valued at $199,625”—more than $4 million dollars in 2005—including an African servant girl worth $1,000." p. 56

During Brigham Young’s lifetime, no faithful Latter-day Saints ever wrote about the handcart disasters, leaving the story to be told by dissenters and apostates. p. 114

No one should ever discount the heroism of those who suffered or died during the handcart ordeal, or ignore the self less acts of courage by the men and boys who risked their lives to save the victims of this ill-conceived experiment. Nothing could honor that memory better than to deal with this story as honestly as the survivors did in their diaries and memoirs, which Juanita Brooks said “picture the labors and suffering of the handcart pioneers as one long torture.” It is time to honor this story and these heroic people with the truth. p. 115

These are some serious charges. I have to say that I am concerned about the quote I placed in red above. Don't we in the church resist the idea that you can trust information from "dissenters and apostates"? Perhaps we also should be concerned about trusting the information and conclusions in this information which has also apparently been provided by those who would wish to harm the church.

[TZONE]

TBM you spoke my mind. I do believe there is probably truth in these accounts but those who fall away usually do have a hardened mind against all things (not always though). Only look at the negative aspects of things.

Interesting point is this as you highlighted in red,

During Brigham Young’s lifetime, no faithful Latter-day Saints ever wrote about the handcart disasters, leaving the story to be told by dissenters and apostates. p. 114

The question here is why? Especially if its true. I have read a little history of my ancestors but not enought o know the picture and if any was written during that period or just years later.

However if these were "cursings" upon the people, the Lord did use them so many could KNOW the Lord.

[Volante]

My grandfather's grandmother was named Louisa. Her story is one of those in 17 Miracles. The story of Louisa and the Meat Pie was passed down orally for several generations, and it's interesting to compare what my mom told me, what was written in Louisa's journal, and the various retellings of the story I've found in church literature.

Anyway, point is, we have a journal entry from her. She definitely wrote about hardships. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 0904258286" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Gad]

My grandfather's grandmother was named Louisa. Her story is one of those in 17 Miracles. The story of Louisa and the Meat Pie was passed down orally for several generations, and it's interesting to compare what my mom told me, what was written in Louisa's journal, and the various retellings of the story I've found in church literature.

Anyway, point is, we have a journal entry from her. She definitely wrote about hardships. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 0904258286" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For those unfamiliar with the story, could you explain what differences you have found? Thanks.

[hyloglyph]

My grandfather's grandmother was named Louisa. Her story is one of those in 17 Miracles. The story of Louisa and the Meat Pie was passed down orally for several generations, and it's interesting to compare what my mom told me, what was written in Louisa's journal, and the various retellings of the story I've found in church literature.

Anyway, point is, we have a journal entry from her. She definitely wrote about hardships. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 0904258286" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cool story.

Crazy at the end she ended up marrying a man who already had a wife. Didn't see that coming though I should have lol. Polygamy was never mentioned till the end. I wonder if in England they knew that Mormons did polygamy?

I can't even imagine what that trek must have been like. Sell or burn everything you own, then walk across the country. People dying starving freezing all around.

She lived till 1911. I wonder when she wrote that entry.

Thanks for sharing.

[Volante]

The story of Louisa and the Meat Pie was passed down orally for several generations, and it's interesting to compare what my mom told me, what was written in Louisa's journal, and the various retellings of the story I've found in church literature.

For those unfamiliar with the story, could you explain what differences you have found? Thanks.

Little things, mostly. I was told her name was Loo-EYE-sah, whereas whenever I hear someone else tell the account they say Loo-EE-sah. Also, I was told it was a meat pie that she found in the road, and in the movie and the Friend illustration, it's some sort of fruit pie. Nothing that really changes the story.

The big thing, though, is Grandpa said that Louisa said that when she picked up the pie, it was still warm, as if it had just been taken out of the oven. But it is an oral story, and I'm familiar enough with oral tradition to know that things can change and be embellished. Since it's not in her original account, I wouldn't repeat it when telling the story, just because I have no way of knowing for sure if that's true. It's miracle enough without the pie being hot, though it's a fun thought and I'm eager to ask her someday!

Crazy at the end she ended up marrying a man who already had a wife. Didn't see that coming though I should have lol. Polygamy was never mentioned till the end.

Caught me off guard, too, haha!

One thing (sorry, I'm really getting off topic here....) that I found interesting was the fact that she got her own house. My dad would always say that polygamy did NOT sound appealing to him AT ALL, because the idea of living with multiple females horrified him. One woman could make enough drama on her own, haha! He also said that if God appeared to him in a vision and told him to take another wife (and that's what it would take for him, he said) he would give her her own house and keep the women separated.

Interesting that Louisa's husband had the same idea! LOL

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread...didn't mean to. I was just answering the claim that only apostates and dissenters wrote about the hardships. Louisa never left the church and definitely wrote about the hardships. And, clearly, about the kindness of the saints in Salt Lake Valley.