LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **October 23rd, 2013, 2:17 pm**

Here is something to think about. This is for those who believe that looking to our leaders is not idolatry, or not even a form of idolatry. We are all gods. This means that our leaders are also gods. By looking to them for leadership, we are placing other gods before us; even though we also keep God before us. However, God is a jealous God. He has commanded us as such: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". But we are doing it anyway. And we wonder why God is not revealing any more truth to us. We keep repenting of many sins; still ignoring how we are breaking the first of the Ten Commandments. Maybe if we repent of breaking this commandment, He will start revealing more truth collectively to the Church.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 8:25 am**

jo1952 wrote:Here is something to think about. This is for those who believe that looking to our leaders is not idolatry, or not even a form of idolatry. We are all gods. This means that our leaders are also gods. By looking to them for leadership, we are placing other gods before us; even though we also keep God before us. However, God is a jealous God. He has commanded us as such: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". But we are doing it anyway. And we wonder why God is not revealing any more truth to us. We keep repenting of many sins; still ignoring how we are breaking the first of the Ten Commandments. Maybe if we repent of breaking this commandment, He will start revealing more truth collectively to the Church.

Didn't god give us the prophets? Why would he give us prophets if we are not supposed to follow them, or as you put it, look to them for leadership?

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 9:05 am**

TBMormon wrote:
jo1952 wrote:Here is something to think about. This is for those who believe that looking to our leaders is not idolatry, or not even a form of idolatry. We are all gods. This means that our leaders are also gods. By looking to them for leadership, we are placing other gods before us; even though we also keep God before us. However, God is a jealous God. He has commanded us as such: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". But we are doing it anyway. And we wonder why God is not revealing any more truth to us. We keep repenting of many sins; still ignoring how we are breaking the first of the Ten Commandments. Maybe if we repent of breaking this commandment, He will start revealing more truth collectively to the Church.
Didn't god give us the prophets? Why would he give us prophets if we are not supposed to follow them, or as you put it, look to them for leadership?

God sends men and women who have beheld his Glory to be witnesses. They tell us that they have communed with God and give us instructions in how we can do the same. True prophets and prophetesses always point away from themselves to their Redeemer. (Alma 13:6, Moroni 7:31-32). Nowhere are we commanded to "follow" any church leader. Hear, hearken to, receive, yes, but not follow.

People aren't ordained Apostles because they have already had this revelatory experience. Their ordination is essentially a calling to become witnesses. Not all apostles in our Church's history have fulfilled this calling. Remember, many are called, but few are chosen. That scripture was written about apostles (most of whom had defected at the time of it's writing).

We are here to choose to hear His voice. We have to discern when people (Apostles,Presidents, and ordinary members included) are actually speaking those words, and when they are not.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 9:25 am**

TBMormon wrote:
jo1952 wrote:Here is something to think about. This is for those who believe that looking to our leaders is not idolatry, or not even a form of idolatry. We are all gods. This means that our leaders are also gods. By looking to them for leadership, we are placing other gods before us; even though we also keep God before us. However, God is a jealous God. He has commanded us as such: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". But we are doing it anyway. And we wonder why God is not revealing any more truth to us. We keep repenting of many sins; still ignoring how we are breaking the first of the Ten Commandments. Maybe if we repent of breaking this commandment, He will start revealing more truth collectively to the Church.
Didn't god give us the prophets? Why would he give us prophets if we are not supposed to follow them, or as you put it, look to them for leadership?

He doesn't give them to us in order to follow them. He sends prophets to give us messages. The messages are meant to teach us; not cause us to place someone else between Him and us. WE are the ones who place them into positions of leadership. That is how natural/worldly man does things. Once our spirit awakens, we will begin to recognize the truth once more (we used to have all truth...we were One!), and we will stop placing others of us before us. And we will stop placing others before God. When we do that, we will be able to see God (see God again....that's where we came from!!!).

He DID give us Christ to follow. Folllowing Christ, though, only gets us to where Christ lives. In order to get back to Father's kingdom, we need to look to Father....and not to Christ; as Christ is also a God...and Father, being a jealous God, cannot be reached while we allow another God to be before Him. This is part of the lesson being taught about the three Nephites. Nine of the Nephites were following and looking to Christ. That is what they wanted; and Christ told them they were blessed for wanting to follow Him. But the three Nephites who wanted to go to Father were told by Christ that they would be more blessed in Father's kingdom. Wherein we can't get to Father without going through Christ; we can't get to Father unless we look beyond Christ and don't keep Christ between us and the Father.

When the children of Israel followed Moses (a type for Christ...Moses led them out of physical bondage; but Christ leads us out of spiritual bondage), it was a physical following; it was not supposed to be for the purpose of following Moses spiritually. Moses got them out of physical bondage; but he wasn't supposed to be their spiritual leader. It was the people who wanted Moses to be their spiritual leader. Even when Moses told them that the Lord wanted to meet with them, they refused the invitation and asked Moses to meet with the Lord on their behalf. This is what caused the Lord to become angry. It was in wrath that the Lord gave the Ten Commandments; it was in His wrath that the Lord gave them the law of Moses and instructions to build a temple. The people wanted to follow the prophet Moses--they wanted him to lead them; so that is what they got. We get what we ask for. We have free agency; God gives us what we want. He gives us what we want, even when what we want is to place other gods before Him. But we aren't going to be able to return to Him unless it is only Him that we look toward; and only when we don't place any other gods before Him. We can only advance as far as to the one we are allowing to lead us.

We did the same thing with the prophet Joseph Smith. He was sent to us to give us a message; to Restore the true version of the Gospel message. He gave us the message of how to build a Zion so that the Lord could dwell with us. But we weren't able to build Zion. We looked to Joseph to lead us; that was NOT the purpose of his calling...to lead us. His calling was to restore NOT lead. WE are the ones who asked Joseph to continue meeting/communing with the Lord on our behalf. And that is what we got.

Today we want to be led by leaders. That is what we are getting.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 9:55 am**

see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=21347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for discussion on both sides

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 10:05 am**

braingrunt wrote:see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=21347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for discussion on both sides

Thank you for the link. There are so many threads on this forum.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 11:55 am**

TBMormon wrote:
jo1952 wrote:Here is something to think about. This is for those who believe that looking to our leaders is not idolatry, or not even a form of idolatry. We are all gods. This means that our leaders are also gods. By looking to them for leadership, we are placing other gods before us; even though we also keep God before us. However, God is a jealous God. He has commanded us as such: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". But we are doing it anyway. And we wonder why God is not revealing any more truth to us. We keep repenting of many sins; still ignoring how we are breaking the first of the Ten Commandments. Maybe if we repent of breaking this commandment, He will start revealing more truth collectively to the Church.
Didn't god give us the prophets? Why would he give us prophets if we are not supposed to follow them, or as you put it, look to them for leadership?

Are we following the prophets? Are we doing what the prophets do? Prophets are a go between for a fallen people who what to be told what to do and how far to jump... True prophets speak to God face to face... that's what we should be doing ourselves!

Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 84:23 - 24)

If we have not had this experience then we should repent and seek it more earnestly than food and raiment and possessions and what church we belong to. Maybe then we would understand what "Holiness to the Lord" (see LDS Bible Dictionary, Holiness) means on the East side of every LDS temple.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 2:48 pm**

When the Savior returns to reign, will we still have a prophet? Does anyone have any references? As far as I know he will rule and reign personally but will we still have a prophet?

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 2:52 pm**

And it came to pass that I saw a man, and he was dressed in a white robe; and he came and stood before me. And it came to pass that he spake unto me, and bade me follow him. And it came to pass that as I followed him I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 3:09 pm**

katmr wrote:When the Savior returns to reign, will we still have a prophet? Does anyone have any references? As far as I know he will rule and reign personally but will we still have a prophet?

When He returns in the flesh for our current world's system experiencing of His Second Coming He alone treads the grapes in the winepress. Even though He has an army which gathers for this purpose (and WOW is there great meaning in this!!), it is Christ who does the treading:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

When we, as individuals, experience His Second Coming, we can continue to prophesy. He speaks to us; and when moved upon to do so, we can speak of what has been spoken between us.

At the "perfect day", when all things spiritual are understood perfectly, all things other than charity (love) will have an end; even prophecy. As such, I do not think that His earthly Second Coming can be equated to the "perfect day". I believe the "perfect day" is experienced individually. At that point, we just continue our "being"...no longer bound to this physical realm, unless we want to participate in it further. The things created to be used in physical realms are useful here in temporal (temporary) places; but they have no hold outside of it.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 5:31 pm**

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; don't go astray.

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; he knows the way.

"The Book of Mormon is a religious record of three groups of people who migrated from the Old World to the American continents. These groups were LED (emphasis added) by prophets who recorded their religious and secular histories on metal plates"
http://www.lds.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In order for a prophet to lead, someone must follow.

Do you think Jesus cringes when we sing that hymn?

I don't think He does...

Of course a common objection from someone who believes different from me may claim that the hymn is written by "man" in "error" and that's the point they are trying to make. I got that. I just disagree with this objection.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 5:45 pm**

jo1952 wrote:He doesn't give them to us in order to follow them. He sends prophets to give us messages. The messages are meant to teach us; not cause us to place someone else between Him and us. WE are the ones who place them into positions of leadership. That is how natural/worldly man does things. Once our spirit awakens, we will begin to recognize the truth once more (we used to have all truth...we were One!), and we will stop placing others of us before us. And we will stop placing others before God. When we do that, we will be able to see God (see God again....that's where we came from!!!).

I would imagine that most LDS would say the same thing, that following the prophet means listening to the messages God gives us through him.

jo1952 wrote:He DID give us Christ to follow. Folllowing Christ, though, only gets us to where Christ lives. In order to get back to Father's kingdom, we need to look to Father....and not to Christ; as Christ is also a God...and Father, being a jealous God, cannot be reached while we allow another God to be before Him. This is part of the lesson being taught about the three Nephites. Nine of the Nephites were following and looking to Christ. That is what they wanted; and Christ told them they were blessed for wanting to follow Him. But the three Nephites who wanted to go to Father were told by Christ that they would be more blessed in Father's kingdom. Wherein we can't get to Father without going through Christ; we can't get to Father unless we look beyond Christ and don't keep Christ between us and the Father.

When the children of Israel followed Moses (a type for Christ...Moses led them out of physical bondage; but Christ leads us out of spiritual bondage), it was a physical following; it was not supposed to be for the purpose of following Moses spiritually. Moses got them out of physical bondage; but he wasn't supposed to be their spiritual leader. It was the people who wanted Moses to be their spiritual leader. Even when Moses told them that the Lord wanted to meet with them, they refused the invitation and asked Moses to meet with the Lord on their behalf. This is what caused the Lord to become angry. It was in wrath that the Lord gave the Ten Commandments; it was in His wrath that the Lord gave them the law of Moses and instructions to build a temple. The people wanted to follow the prophet Moses--they wanted him to lead them; so that is what they got. We get what we ask for. We have free agency; God gives us what we want. He gives us what we want, even when what we want is to place other gods before Him. But we aren't going to be able to return to Him unless it is only Him that we look toward; and only when we don't place any other gods before Him. We can only advance as far as to the one we are allowing to lead us.

So from what you are saying, we are supposed to follow Christ for a time, but we need to eventually move past him to begin following the Father instead. I would say that it is the same with the prophets. I think the people in Moses' time were supposed to follow him. I can't really see the Lord not understanding that they weren't ready yet to take the next step. If it was okay for the 9 of the 12 disciples to still be following Christ, then it seems like it should be okay for the Israelites to continue following the prophet until they were ready for more.

jo1952 wrote:We did the same thing with the prophet Joseph Smith. He was sent to us to give us a message; to Restore the true version of the Gospel message. He gave us the message of how to build a Zion so that the Lord could dwell with us. But we weren't able to build Zion. We looked to Joseph to lead us; that was NOT the purpose of his calling...to lead us. His calling was to restore NOT lead. WE are the ones who asked Joseph to continue meeting/communing with the Lord on our behalf. And that is what we got.

Today we want to be led by leaders. That is what we are getting.

Again I have to say I am not certain it was wrong of the people back then to not be ready yet to follow Christ directly. That is a pretty tall order. Who are we with our cushy lives to say that the pioneers weren't quite faithful enough?

Perhaps we should do what we say we believe and actually follow the prophets and see what happens. Don't our prophets today testify of Christ? Don't they tell us to read the scriptures and say our prayers? If we follow them, won't we come closer to God? I know that as I tried to follow the prophets more closely, I gained more spiritual insight. I don't think it is wrong to follow a man if our intent is to come to Christ.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 5:49 pm**

SkyBird wrote:
TBMormon wrote:
jo1952 wrote:Here is something to think about. This is for those who believe that looking to our leaders is not idolatry, or not even a form of idolatry. We are all gods. This means that our leaders are also gods. By looking to them for leadership, we are placing other gods before us; even though we also keep God before us. However, God is a jealous God. He has commanded us as such: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me". But we are doing it anyway. And we wonder why God is not revealing any more truth to us. We keep repenting of many sins; still ignoring how we are breaking the first of the Ten Commandments. Maybe if we repent of breaking this commandment, He will start revealing more truth collectively to the Church.
Didn't god give us the prophets? Why would he give us prophets if we are not supposed to follow them, or as you put it, look to them for leadership?
Are we following the prophets? Are we doing what the prophets do? Prophets are a go between for a fallen people who what to be told what to do and how far to jump... True prophets speak to God face to face... that's what we should be doing ourselves!

Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 84:23 - 24)

If we have not had this experience then we should repent and seek it more earnestly than food and raiment and possessions and what church we belong to. Maybe then we would understand what "Holiness to the Lord" (see LDS Bible Dictionary, Holiness) means on the East side of every LDS temple.

That is pretty presumptuous. I doubt that anyone really wants to be told what to do or how far to jump. Do you know of anyone who does? I would imagine that those who are trying their best to follow the prophet are doing it because that is how they worship God.

Posted: **October 24th, 2013, 7:04 pm**

TBMormon wrote:
jo1952 wrote:He doesn't give them to us in order to follow them. He sends prophets to give us messages. The messages are meant to teach us; not cause us to place someone else between Him and us. WE are the ones who place them into positions of leadership. That is how natural/worldly man does things. Once our spirit awakens, we will begin to recognize the truth once more (we used to have all truth...we were One!), and we will stop placing others of us before us. And we will stop placing others before God. When we do that, we will be able to see God (see God again....that's where we came from!!!).
I would imagine that most LDS would say the same thing, that following the prophet means listening to the messages God gives us through him.
jo1952 wrote:He DID give us Christ to follow. Folllowing Christ, though, only gets us to where Christ lives. In order to get back to Father's kingdom, we need to look to Father....and not to Christ; as Christ is also a God...and Father, being a jealous God, cannot be reached while we allow another God to be before Him. This is part of the lesson being taught about the three Nephites. Nine of the Nephites were following and looking to Christ. That is what they wanted; and Christ told them they were blessed for wanting to follow Him. But the three Nephites who wanted to go to Father were told by Christ that they would be more blessed in Father's kingdom. Wherein we can't get to Father without going through Christ; we can't get to Father unless we look beyond Christ and don't keep Christ between us and the Father.

When the children of Israel followed Moses (a type for Christ...Moses led them out of physical bondage; but Christ leads us out of spiritual bondage), it was a physical following; it was not supposed to be for the purpose of following Moses spiritually. Moses got them out of physical bondage; but he wasn't supposed to be their spiritual leader. It was the people who wanted Moses to be their spiritual leader. Even when Moses told them that the Lord wanted to meet with them, they refused the invitation and asked Moses to meet with the Lord on their behalf. This is what caused the Lord to become angry. It was in wrath that the Lord gave the Ten Commandments; it was in His wrath that the Lord gave them the law of Moses and instructions to build a temple. The people wanted to follow the prophet Moses--they wanted him to lead them; so that is what they got. We get what we ask for. We have free agency; God gives us what we want. He gives us what we want, even when what we want is to place other gods before Him. But we aren't going to be able to return to Him unless it is only Him that we look toward; and only when we don't place any other gods before Him. We can only advance as far as to the one we are allowing to lead us.
So from what you are saying, we are supposed to follow Christ for a time, but we need to eventually move past him to begin following the Father instead. I would say that it is the same with the prophets. I think the people in Moses' time were supposed to follow him. I can't really see the Lord not understanding that they weren't ready yet to take the next step. If it was okay for the 9 of the 12 disciples to still be following Christ, then it seems like it should be okay for the Israelites to continue following the prophet until they were ready for more.
jo1952 wrote:We did the same thing with the prophet Joseph Smith. He was sent to us to give us a message; to Restore the true version of the Gospel message. He gave us the message of how to build a Zion so that the Lord could dwell with us. But we weren't able to build Zion. We looked to Joseph to lead us; that was NOT the purpose of his calling...to lead us. His calling was to restore NOT lead. WE are the ones who asked Joseph to continue meeting/communing with the Lord on our behalf. And that is what we got.

Today we want to be led by leaders. That is what we are getting.
Again I have to say I am not certain it was wrong of the people back then to not be ready yet to follow Christ directly. That is a pretty tall order. Who are we with our cushy lives to say that the pioneers weren't quite faithful enough?

Perhaps we should do what we say we believe and actually follow the prophets and see what happens. Don't our prophets today testify of Christ? Don't they tell us to read the scriptures and say our prayers? If we follow them, won't we come closer to God? I know that as I tried to follow the prophets more closely, I gained more spiritual insight. I don't think it is wrong to follow a man if our intent is to come to Christ.

I am not saying they weren't faithful enough; they weren't "wrong". I am making the observation that they weren't ready. God gives us tools to help us to be ready. It is a fine line between listening to a message and then mistakenly begin to follow the messenger. The double-edged sword in this instance is, that if we don't like the message, we kill the messenger; which is why messengers are so often killed. So, on one hand, if we recognize that the message being spoken as truth, we are in danger of allowing that messenger to lead us instead of just being a messenger; asking the messenger to meet with God on our behalf. Right now we are content with waiting for our leaders to receive messages for the entire Church. On the other hand, if we don't like the message, or perceive it as being false, we are likely to confuse the messenger with the message, and destroy the messenger. Fortunately, whenever an individual IS ready, they will experience the second coming of Christ. It isn't through anyone else's experiencing the second coming of Christ which saves us. It is our own personal experiencing of the second coming of Christ which saves us.

No one can come to the Father unless they go through Christ. Once we get to where Christ is, if we want to go to the Father, we need to go beyond Christ. The story of the three Nephites teaches this important lesson.

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 3:06 am**

katmr wrote:When the Savior returns to reign, will we still have a prophet? Does anyone have any references? As far as I know he will rule and reign personally but will we still have a prophet?

Did Christ have Disciples while on earth? This discussion is truly a ploy to get people to ignore the purpose of having men called as mouth pieces for Christ. I can't believe that the obvious is being quashed by intellectuals that seem to wrest the scriptures.

Doctrine and Covenants 66:2
2 Verily I say unto you, blessed are you for receiving mine everlasting covenant, even the fulness of my gospel, sent forth unto the children of men, that they might have life and be made partakers of the glories which are to be revealed in the last days, as it was written by the prophets and apostles in days of old.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:14
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

Daniel 9:10
10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. IDOLS, HUH?

Jeremiah 26:5
5 To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened;

Revelation 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 22:6
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

2 Kings 24:2
2 And the Lord sent against him bands of the Chaldees, and bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake by his servants the prophets.

Prophets, Rejection of

I only, am left; and they seek my life: 1 Kgs. 19:10 . ( Rom. 11:3 . )
Notwithstanding they would not hear: 2 Kgs. 17:14 .
they conspired against him, and stoned him: 2 Chr. 24:21 .
they mocked the messengers of God: 2 Chr. 36:16 .
Prophesy not unto us right things: Isa. 30:10 .
they shall fight against thee: Jer. 1:19 .
they had devised devices against me: Jer. 11:19 . ( Jer. 18:18 . )
men … that seek thy life: Jer. 11:21 .
thy brethren … have dealt treacherously with thee: Jer. 12:6 .
people took him, saying, Thou shalt surely die: Jer. 26:8 .
wroth with Jeremiah … and put him in prison: Jer. 37:15 .
they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear: Jer. 44:5 .
they say of me, Doth he not speak parables: Ezek. 20:49 .
so persecuted they the prophets: Matt. 5:12 . ( Luke 6:23 ; 3 Ne. 12:12 . )
receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet: Matt. 10:41 .
prophet is not without honour, save in his own country: Matt. 13:57 . ( Mark 6:4 ; Luke 4:24 ; John 4:44 . )
beat one, and killed another, and stoned another: Matt. 21:35 .
children of them which killed the prophets: Matt. 23:31 .
Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets: Matt. 23:37 . ( Luke 13:34 . )
blood of all the prophets, which was shed: Luke 11:50 .
it cannot be that a prophet perish: Luke 13:33 .
If they hear not Moses and the prophets: Luke 16:31 .
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted: Acts 7:52 .
killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets: 1 Thes. 2:15 .
They were stoned, they were sawn asunder: Heb. 11:37 .
have shed the blood of saints and prophets: Rev. 16:6 .
Jews … sought his life: 1 Ne. 1:20 .
they have rejected the words of the prophets: 1 Ne. 3:18 . ( 1 Ne. 7:14 ; Ether 11:2, 22 . )
hearken not to the voice of his counsels: 1 Ne. 19:7 .
they perish because they cast out the prophets: 2 Ne. 26:3 .
prophet of the Lord have they slain: Mosiah 7:26 .
Amulek … being rejected: Alma 15:16 .
they murdered all the prophets: Alma 37:30 .
we would not have slain the prophets: Hel. 13:25 .
wo be unto him that will not hearken unto … them whom he hath chosen and sent: 3 Ne. 28:34 .
people did revile against the prophets: Ether 7:24 .
they have murdered the prophets: Ether 8:25 .
they who will not hear … the voice of his servants: D&C 1:14 .
received not the gospel … neither the prophets: D&C 76:101 .
if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men: D&C 124:46 .
ye believed not my servants: D&C 133:71 .
For they killed the prophets: D&C 136:36 .
rebellious who rejected … the ancient prophets: D&C 138:21 .

See also 1 Kgs. 17:3 ; 1 Kgs. 18:17 ; D&C 90:5

Isn't the OP misleading?

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 7:24 am**

Epistemology wrote: Do you think Jesus cringes when we sing that hymn?

Yes I do. He would prefer that we follow the message.

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 7:29 am**

TBMormon wrote: I would imagine that most LDS would say the same thing, that following the prophet means listening to the messages God gives us through him.

So no one stands when the message walks into the conference center? The message has its own door to come and go in the building. The new message can overturn the old message?

Prophet worship is alive and well in the church. Only when that is broken will the church repent.

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 7:35 am**

katmr wrote:When the Savior returns to reign, will we still have a prophet? Does anyone have any references? As far as I know he will rule and reign personally but will we still have a prophet?

I am surprised that more people don't know this answer?

Dan_9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

For the Jews and the city Jerusalem there will be a time in which prophecy is sealed. It is my understanding that this occurs around the time of the new earth.

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 7:43 am**

freedomfighter wrote: Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I do like that verse. But it begs the question, just who can be a prophet?

Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

So men and women, young and old shall prophesy. I embrace truth no matter where it comes from. So anyone I meet on the street can be a prophet. Praise the Lord.

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 8:10 am**

jo1952

"We are Gods"? Wasn't it Satan that claims to be God? A caterpillar is not a butterfly. This heresy is not only against LDS doctrine, never taught by Christ, or any of the prophets, certainly not the current LDS prophets that you so disdain. It is only taught by Satan.

Therefor following the guidance of the Lords appointed, such as Moses, Joseph Smith, or Thomas S. Monson is not to chasing after another God, because they neither are Gods, nor claim to be.

Regards,

George Clay

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 8:27 am**

Franktalk wrote:
freedomfighter wrote: Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
I do like that verse. But it begs the question, just who can be a prophet?

Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

So men and women, young and old shall prophesy. I embrace truth no matter where it comes from. So anyone I meet on the street can be a prophet. Praise the Lord.

I went through a bunch of scriptures related to this one and I have to agree. There will be many prophecy. The thing is when will this take place. All it says is the last days, so it may be a while yet. I'm sure the Lord will still have a spokesman for the whole church as he has always done all along.

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 9:20 am**

gclayjr wrote:jo1952

"We are Gods"? Wasn't it Satan that claims to be God? A caterpillar is not a butterfly. This heresy is not only against LDS doctrine, never taught by Christ, or any of the prophets, certainly not the current LDS prophets that you so disdain. It is only taught by Satan.

Therefor following the guidance of the Lords appointed, such as Moses, Joseph Smith, or Thomas S. Monson is not to chasing after another God, because they neither are Gods, nor claim to be.

Regards,

George Clay

Wow. @-)

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34-36

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

I don't think I need to keep giving any more examples. Enough said.

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 9:50 am**

There is a vast difference between showing respect and "worshipping" someone. It's false to say that because we respect the Prophet and value his teachings that we worship him. So many of these discussion start out with a false premise, then use scriptures, etc., to "prove" the point.

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 10:03 am**

kathyn wrote:There is a vast difference between showing respect and "worshipping" someone. It's false to say that because we respect the Prophet and value his teachings that we worship him. So many of these discussion start out with a false premise, then use scriptures, etc., to "prove" the point.

Strange you should say what you did. Please show me where prophets of old were respected? I think they were mostly sent to jail or killed.

Posted: **October 25th, 2013, 10:05 am**

I don't have a dog in this fight, but here's my two cents:

Worship. v. show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.
"the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods"
synonyms: revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, glorify, exalt, extol

Speaking only for myself, I don't seek to praise or honor anyone. I love our leaders with a Christlike love. But I don't revere or extol them. Someone posted recently on another thread that at their Sacrament Meeting, the theme/topic was "loving the brethren" and the speakers talked about how much they loved our General Authorities. The only thing left, then, is to discuss the context of all those feelings for them. In any case, I don't personally believe that our Savior cringes when He hears us singing "Praise to the man." Jesus Christ has a perfect love for us and I truly believe he sees us in our innocent, perhaps even ignorant (I say that in a good way) way, meaning, we don't know better, but we try.

When I see small children interacting, they sometimes they may act selfish or territorial, but to me, it looks innocent and without malicious intent. They are simply being little children. I don't cringe. I lovingly intercede and teach them to share. I truly believe this is how our Savior is. He is pure love. And to have only Him as my God, is to try to be one with Him; to have the same mind as Him. I cannot have the same mind as Him if I try to have the same mind with any other man no matter how well and wonderful and perfect his intentions are. Perhaps it is more important to understand what it means to worship or to praise or to extol. These are the opposite of humble and meek and lowly. Only Christ is perfectly all of these.

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