LDS Freedom Forum

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: You surprise me, Franktalk. What you are really saying is ..........

What I am saying is what I said. All of that other stuff you wrote is not of me. This is normal for you so no surprise.

If the shoe fits! You say people won't go to hell. I prove they do by showing you scripture proving it. What can I say? Then you claim that the scripture doesn't really mean that but is by me hearing it and memorizing what I hear that drives me. I see the problem coming from your end, not mine. But, hey, whatever makes your clock tick, okay.
But when I see doctrine being cited that doesn't fit with Christ's teachings, I do question it. As should all saints. Christ's word is our strength, our salvation. We must believe HIM, not merely believe IN Him.

freedomfighter wrote:
If the shoe fits! You say people won't go to hell. I prove they do by showing you scripture proving it. What can I say? Then you claim that the scripture doesn't really mean that but is by me hearing it and memorizing what I hear that drives me. I see the problem coming from your end, not mine. But, hey, whatever makes your clock tick, okay.
But when I see doctrine being cited that doesn't fit with Christ's teachings, I do question it. As should all saints. Christ's word is our strength, our salvation. We must believe HIM, not merely believe IN Him.

I have laid out why I believe what I believe. You reject what I believe. I accept that. Me saying it tens times or a hundred times will not change either of us. So be it.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:
If the shoe fits! You say people won't go to hell. I prove they do by showing you scripture proving it. What can I say? Then you claim that the scripture doesn't really mean that but is by me hearing it and memorizing what I hear that drives me. I see the problem coming from your end, not mine. But, hey, whatever makes your clock tick, okay.
But when I see doctrine being cited that doesn't fit with Christ's teachings, I do question it. As should all saints. Christ's word is our strength, our salvation. We must believe HIM, not merely believe IN Him.

I have laid out why I believe what I believe. You reject what I believe. I accept that. Me saying it tens times or a hundred times will not change either of us. So be it.

**==

kathyn wrote:There is a vast difference between showing respect and "worshipping" someone. It's false to say that because we respect the Prophet and value his teachings that we worship him.

Yes, I think it's important to consider what "worshipping" entails.

"Worship: 3.love somebody deeply: to love, admire, or respect somebody or something greatly and perhaps excessively or unquestioningly."

The problem with "following the prophet" unquestioningly, as we are taught from the get-go, is that when these imperfect humans lead us astray (& they have, do & will). Of course, we don't pray to anybody except God, but ACTION SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Do we obey God, or men professing to be God's spokesmen?

I personally don't trust anybody who unquestioningly follows ANYBODY.
Consider how YOU might have felt if you were a Ute Native American when members were following Brigham Young's extermination order, killing men, women and children of the Ute tribes in Utah.
I see many members today, indirectly supporting the deaths of tens of thousands, who are being robbed of tithes.
Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to those in need, and Jesus taught and lived by giving much more.
Yet, members insist on following the financial scam of LDS leaders charging for worthiness, while not sharing with those who God commanded tithes to be shared with. Such who follow, will be likened to the goats in the parable of the sheep and goats.

This is just another attempt to discredit the brethren so as to remove any responsibility to listen to what they say. It is a complete strawman argument to claim that the membership of the Church in looks to prophets instead of Christ. It is an argument built on an entirely false premise. In fact, it is those who rejected the prophets of old who were condemned and destroyed, not those who followed them. Compare the city of Ammonihah and the city of Enoch. The people of Ammonihah rejected the prophet Alma and were destroyed. The people of Enoch followed his example and teachings until they were brought back into the presence of God.

Let's go to the scriptures. D&C 1:38
What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
What's so difficult to understand about that? It it is the same, then God expects the same response from us in both instances.

How about D&C 68:4
And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

How about an example of following the example of the righteous. Alma 48:11-13, 17
11 And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery;

12 Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.

13 Yea, and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood.

17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.
Sounds like the scriptures are telling us to be like Moroni.

And perhaps a final warning from God. D&C 1:14
And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
Of course the argument will be: We aren't saying the prophets don't have a roll, we just don't think people should worship them.

Well, who is worshipping them? You keep insinuating that the general membership of the Church is guilty of this, but where is your proof? Because the brethren have a special door they walk in and out of the conference center through? Is that your evidence? A poor excuse indeed that will be at the judgement bar. Even the Pharisees would have laughed at that.

double post

Thinker wrote:

kathyn wrote:There is a vast difference between showing respect and "worshipping" someone. It's false to say that because we respect the Prophet and value his teachings that we worship him.

Yes, I think it's important to consider what "worshipping" entails.

"Worship: 3.love somebody deeply: to love, admire, or respect somebody or something greatly and perhaps excessively or unquestioningly."

The problem with "following the prophet" unquestioningly, as we are taught from the get-go, is that when these imperfect humans lead us astray (& they have, do & will). Of course, we don't pray to anybody except God, but ACTION SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Do we obey God, or men professing to be God's spokesmen?

I personally don't trust anybody who unquestioningly follows ANYBODY.
Consider how YOU might have felt if you were a Ute Native American when members were following Brigham Young's extermination order, killing men, women and children of the Ute tribes in Utah.
I see many members today, indirectly supporting the deaths of tens of thousands, who are being robbed of tithes.
Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to those in need, and Jesus taught and lived by giving much more.
Yet, members insist on following the financial scam of LDS leaders charging for worthiness, while not sharing with those who God commanded tithes to be shared with. Such who follow, will be likened to the goats in the parable of the sheep and goats.

So I guess no one should have followed Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. Joseph saw the Father and Son. He even organized a church by the new information he received from God. He could have been laughed out of New York with that story. Oh, and Brigham Young, if no one had followed him, maybe the great Salt Lake Valley would still be a desert wasteland. I can't believe what I'm reading on this forum, lately. Logic and good reasoning have gone to the wayside. Bitterness and harsh judgement has taken its place. Sad.
It isn't the church in and of itself that requires tithing, it is God.
What do we have on here now, a --cut down the Lord and His church--clique? But, hey, poor it on thick and get it off your chest.

Here is a warning from the Lord:

Doctrine and Covenants 64:22-25
22 And after that day, I, the Lord, will not hold any guilty that shall go with an open heart up to the land of Zion; for I, the Lord, require the hearts of the children of men.
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.
24 For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.
25 Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today.

Who questions His course of action for those who will not desist their undesirable actions that will ultimately bring about a horrible demise?

Romans 3:5,6
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance?...
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

Laronius,
Action speak louder than words.
You may SAY you don't worship leaders, but in action, you prioritize their commandments over God's and Christ's.
Peer pressure and prioritizing the praise of men (ie church leaders/people in your ward) is common, and is why so many warned against it.

FreedomFighter,
Have you heard of the Flynn Effect - it goes along with the LDS (latter day warrior) idea.
Each generation gets a little smarter... intellectually, and I also believe this is true pschologically, and spiritually.
Prophets are needed for those who have yet to put off childish things and still need "authority" to tell them how to worship.
Handing over the reins of your spirituality to another, cheats you - because you miss out on essential spiritual lessons, that can only be learned within you, and you WILL FAIL by following someone else who will fail. (All will fail except God/Charity.)

Christ taught that the "kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you." (Luke 17:21) and indeed it is!
You can never put your spirituality in the hands of anybody but you - because only YOU can feel the spirit for YOURSELF.
Of course, any organization needs leadership, for unity and organization, but NEVER put ANY fallible human being above God!

1/3 of TITHES ARE INTENDED FOR POOR
Deuteronomy 14:28-29:
"At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

Luke 18:22, 25: "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me...
For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Elder Oaks explained that not a cent of tithes go to those in need, that members need to pay extra for that.
This is contrary to the law of tithing given in the Old Testament, as well as in Jesus' many examples and teachings...

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matthew 22: 36-40

The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization estimates that nearly 870 million people of the 7.1 billion people in the world, or one in eight, were suffering from chronic undernourishment in 2010-2012
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526BTs_DRoE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Imagine what those billions spent on another shopping mall using sacred funds, could do to help those in need!

Matthew 25 includes the parable of the sheep and goats:
He says to the sheep,
"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungred, & ye have me meat: I was thirsty, & ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, & ye took me in: Naked, & ye clothed me: I was sick, & ye visited me: I was in prison, & ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, & fed thee? or thirsty, & gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, & took thee in? or naked, & clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, & came unto thee?
And the King shall answer & say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil & his angels: For I was an hungred, & ye gave me no meat: I was thristy, & ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, & ye took me not in: naked & ye clothed me not: sick, & in prison, & ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, & did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you,Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the rightous into life eternal."

"Elder Oaks explained that not a cent of tithes go to those in need, that members need to pay extra for that."

The really sobering fact about this is, now that there is a new disclaimer on the bottom of the tithing slip, even though you designate funds to go to humanitarian aid or missionary fund, or whatever, "The Corporation" can use your money however they choose, in order to build the kingdom (or a mall).

I don't give them the option. My charitable funds go directly to those whom the Lord asks me to help.

Lizzy60 wrote:"Elder Oaks explained that not a cent of tithes go to those in need, that members need to pay extra for that."

The really sobering fact about this is, now that there is a new disclaimer on the bottom of the tithing slip, even though you designate funds to go to humanitarian aid or missionary fund, or whatever, "The Corporation" can use your money however they choose, in order to build the kingdom (or a mall).

I don't give them the option. My charitable funds go directly to those whom the Lord asks me to help :ymapplause: .

I think some of us or all of us at some point or from time to time aught to pay tithes of our "surplus" to the church, most of us already have given more than needed to satisfy this. Which lately I have no surplus, in any event that we may lay claim upon them for our inheritance and that our testimonies and grievances against them shall ascend up onto heaven as a witness against them. How much is enough? or how often? I would surmise whenever the spirit bares witness with our spirit to do so...

Thinker wrote:Laronius,
Action speak louder than words.
You may SAY you don't worship leaders, but in action, you prioritize their commandments over God's and Christ's.
Peer pressure and prioritizing the praise of men (ie church leaders/people in your ward) is common, and is why so many warned against it.

FreedomFighter,
Have you heard of the Flynn Effect - it goes along with the LDS (latter day warrior) idea.
Each generation gets a little smarter... intellectually, and I also believe this is true pschologically, and spiritually.
Prophets are needed for those who have yet to put off childish things and still need "authority" to tell them how to worship.
Handing over the reins of your spirituality to another, cheats you - because you miss out on essential spiritual lessons, that can only be learned within you, and you WILL FAIL by following someone else who will fail. (All will fail except God/Charity.)

Christ taught that the "kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you." (Luke 17:21) and indeed it is!
You can never put your spirituality in the hands of anybody but you - because only YOU can feel the spirit for YOURSELF.
Of course, any organization needs leadership, for unity and organization, but NEVER put ANY fallible human being above God!

I do not argue the latter point you make. Somehow I haven't been able to put across that we do have to stand on our own, and I have said so a few times now. The point is that just because we get to a point we think we have outgrown the church, doesn't mean we should show disrespect and a lack of reverence to it. The church is His and we must show humble respect for it. The way I see it is if we don't show humility and respect and reverence, we place ourselves in a precarious position, and does not show true spirituality. I don't think Christ would appreciate this neglect. Where do we get our knowledge in the first place, yes, the spirit. God calls this sort of thing as being puffed up. Is this a good thing before God? I say no. In fact, if we are NOT humble, sincere, respectful or reverent...we are not of God. The scriptures teach us this. Who can say otherwise?

2 Nephi 28:9, 14,15
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.
15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell! Sounds rather straight forward to me!

We must not fall into this trap:

Hel. 13:29
29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light.

How about this?:

Col. 2:22 (18–22)
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

It does not pay to have a lack of humility and charity, nor meekness, nor being puffed up with pride, or teach false and foolish doctrines.

freedomfighter wrote:

Thinker wrote:Laronius,
Action speak louder than words.
You may SAY you don't worship leaders, but in action, you prioritize their commandments over God's and Christ's.
Peer pressure and prioritizing the praise of men (ie church leaders/people in your ward) is common, and is why so many warned against it.

FreedomFighter,
Have you heard of the Flynn Effect - it goes along with the LDS (latter day warrior) idea.
Each generation gets a little smarter... intellectually, and I also believe this is true pschologically, and spiritually.
Prophets are needed for those who have yet to put off childish things and still need "authority" to tell them how to worship.
Handing over the reins of your spirituality to another, cheats you - because you miss out on essential spiritual lessons, that can only be learned within you, and you WILL FAIL by following someone else who will fail. (All will fail except God/Charity.)

Christ taught that the "kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you." (Luke 17:21) and indeed it is!
You can never put your spirituality in the hands of anybody but you - because only YOU can feel the spirit for YOURSELF.
Of course, any organization needs leadership, for unity and organization, but NEVER put ANY fallible human being above God!

I do not argue the latter point you make. Somehow I haven't been able to put across that we do have to stand on our own, and I have said so a few times now. The point is that just because we get to a point we think we have outgrown the church, doesn't mean we should show disrespect and a lack of reverence to it. The church is His and we must show humble respect for it. The way I see it is if we don't show humility and respect and reverence, we place ourselves in a precarious position, and does not show true spirituality. I don't think Christ would appreciate this neglect. Where do we get our knowledge in the first place, yes, the spirit. God calls this sort of thing as being puffed up. Is this a good thing before God? I say no. In fact, if we are NOT humble, sincere, respectful or reverent...we are not of God. The scriptures teach us this. Who can say otherwise?

2 Nephi 28:9, 14,15
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.
15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell! Sounds rather straight forward to me!

We must not fall into this trap:

Hel. 13:29
29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light.

How about this?:

Col. 2:22 (18–22)
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

It does not pay to have a lack of humility and charity, nor meekness, nor being puffed up with pride, or teach false and foolish doctrines.

I agree we should always have respect for the Church, the brethren (in fact all Church's). All of them have a place in society and more so when we consider the kingdoms of Glory. I believe our temple ceremony depicts our own personal progression as we move from the creation room to the veil. It's as though each of us are passing through the mind set of the telestial, then terrestrial and on to the celestial way of thinking. How many of us have "thoughts" and "beliefs" that are still very telestial? And so on... How do we know if our beliefs are celestial or terrestrial? Perhaps some "celestial" beliefs if shared today in a sacrament meeting or a book could get you ex'ed... its a good thing to have this "neutral ground" where we can share thoughts without being ex'ed or demoted in our religion.

Lizzy60 wrote:"Elder Oaks explained that not a cent of tithes go to those in need, that members need to pay extra for that."

The really sobering fact about this is, now that there is a new disclaimer on the bottom of the tithing slip, even though you designate funds to go to humanitarian aid or missionary fund, or whatever, "The Corporation" can use your money however they choose, in order to build the kingdom (or a mall).

I don't give them the option. My charitable funds go directly to those whom the Lord asks me to help.

Same here!
And I feel good about it, and have been as blessed, if not more blessed than before when we paid $$$$$$ to LDS Inc.

BMC wrote:Which lately I have no surplus, in any event that we may lay claim upon them for our inheritance and that our testimonies and grievances against them shall ascend up onto heaven as a witness against them. How much is enough? or how often? I would surmise whenever the spirit bares witness with our spirit to do so...

Yes, since we are all sinners, the greatest evil, IMO, is to shift blame to others and deny any evil-doing.
Those who collect SACRED funds in the name of Jesus Christ, should not shift the responsbility to members to pay "extra" for those in need, meanwhile pretending that they are doing God's work in building up LDS Inc and more shopping malls with sacred funds and robbing those in need of tithes commanded to be given to those in need.

As Jesus warned, those who ignore the poor, (and there are many - about 1 in 8 of our brothers and sisters on this earth are chronically hungry!) - will be likened to the goats in the parable of the sheep and goats. It doesn't matter who they put before God and who told them to do what... each is accountable for how they exercise their free agency.

Thomas wrote: And I feel good about it, and have been as blessed, if not more blessed than before when we paid $$$$$$ to LDS Inc.

Amen to that. The same thing is occurring with us. We are bringing in less income, giving more $$$$ away, specifically on His instructions, and our blessings are incredible, although they are not financial.