LDS Freedom Forum

kathyn wrote:There is a vast difference between showing respect and "worshipping" someone. It's false to say that because we respect the Prophet and value his teachings that we worship him. So many of these discussion start out with a false premise, then use scriptures, etc., to "prove" the point.


Strange you should say what you did. Please show me where prophets of old were respected? I think they were mostly sent to jail or killed.

Frank, you missed the whole point. We, as LDS respect our leaders; we don't worship them. Whether the prophets of old were respected or not has nothing to do with my showing respect for today's prophet. Lehi, Nephi, Captain Moroni, Moses, etc. were respected by some and reviled by some. It's not that different today. (I think you just like to argue.) #-o

kathyn wrote:There is a vast difference between showing respect and "worshipping" someone. It's false to say that because we respect the Prophet and value his teachings that we worship him. So many of these discussion start out with a false premise, then use scriptures, etc., to "prove" the point.

To find what I worship, I ask myself where I look for wisdom, guidance, security, and power. When I see myself or others looking to any man for these things, I see idolatry. I don't think it's a false premise at all to say that MANY look to their church leaders for these things. Nor is it a stretch to say that many look to Denver Snuffer for these things. It is so common because it is natural (telestial) to look to our immediate surroundings for them. The mainstream will always be telestial and idolatrous in this way.

kathyn wrote: Frank, you missed the whole point. We, as LDS respect our leaders; we don't worship them. Whether the prophets of old were respected or not has nothing to do with my showing respect for today's prophet. Lehi, Nephi, Captain Moroni, Moses, etc. were respected by some and reviled by some. It's not that different today. (I think you just like to argue.) #-o

No, you have missed the point. The prophets have been hated by the world. Jesus was hated by the world. Joseph Smith was hated by the world. But all of the prophets since Joseph have not been hated by the world. And as time goes on the prophets are becoming loved by the world. Don't you see the problem here? Yes, people should listen to a prophet. Then double check what is said against the scriptures and the Holy Spirit. I will be the first to admit when a prophecy is made by the leader of the church. Let me know when the prophet says "Thus saith the Lord". I will be all ears. You may say I am being disrespectful. That is your opinion. I see myself as being respectful of God and not taking His messages lightly.

TBMormon wrote:

jo1952 wrote: He DID give us Christ to follow. Folllowing Christ, though, only gets us to where Christ lives. In order to get back to Father's kingdom, we need to look to Father....and not to Christ; as Christ is also a God...and Father, being a jealous God, cannot be reached while we allow another God to be before Him. This is part of the lesson being taught about the three Nephites. Nine of the Nephites were following and looking to Christ. That is what they wanted; and Christ told them they were blessed for wanting to follow Him. But the three Nephites who wanted to go to Father were told by Christ that they would be more blessed in Father's kingdom. Wherein we can't get to Father without going through Christ; we can't get to Father unless we look beyond Christ and don't keep Christ between us and the Father.

So from what you are saying, we are supposed to follow Christ for a time, but we need to eventually move past him to begin following the Father instead. I would say that it is the same with the prophets. I think the people in Moses' time were supposed to follow him. I can't really see the Lord not understanding that they weren't ready yet to take the next step. If it was okay for the 9 of the 12 disciples to still be following Christ, then it seems like it should be okay for the Israelites to continue following the prophet until they were ready for more.

Joseph Smith received more revelation than what he shared with us. We weren't able to bear or receive more than what he taught. As such, he did not teach us everything that he knew. Thus, we have only been able to follow in accordance to what he taught; but not as far as everything he knew. We are limited to how much he taught.

Paul spoke of the same thing to the church at Corinth; he even rebuked them. He could only feed them milk; even though they should have been ready for meat. He knew more than he was able to teach them. They could only follow Paul in accordance with what he taught them; but not as far as everything he knew. They were limited to how much he taught them.

Christ did the same thing. He only taught what the Father told Him to teach; but He did not teach everything that He knew. As such, we can only follow Christ in accordance with what He taught us; but not as far as everything He knew. We are limited to how much He taught us.

If we choose our prophets to be the ones we follow/allow to lead us, we will only be led to as far as they are teaching. We limit ourselves in accordance with what they teach. So, even if you believe that they cannot lead us astray, they will only lead us as far as what they are teaching.

The Holy Ghost, OTOH, teaches us more than any of these other sources. The Holy Ghost shall teach us ALL things (see John 14:26)! As such, the Holy Ghost is unlimited as to how far we can be led. The only limitation we have is the one we place upon ourselves wherein we can only receive what we are able to bear.

An heirarchy has been established in the created physical realms. Now that we are inside of this physical realm, we need to ascend through the heiarchy in order to get back into Father's presence. Nine of the twelve Nephite apostles were content to be with Jesus Christ inside of His kingdom; so that is where they were going to go. The other three Nephite apostles wanted to go beyond Christ's kingdom in order to be with Father in Father's kingdom; so that is where they are going to go.

We can't allow any other god to get between us and the God of the kingdom to which we desire to enter. To get to Christ, at some point we need to stop following our leaders in order to get past them. Father has given us Christ to follow in order to get into Christ's kingdom. We can't get to Father without going past Christ. WE get to choose where it is we want to go. If what we want to do is limit ourselves to being in Christ's kingdom, we can choose that. If we want to get to Father's kingdom, we can choose that; but we first need to get past Christ. Either way, we need to get to Christ before we can get out of where we currently are.

Haven't read the whole thing. I was watching footbal, don't care fore sports much, but its my college team. It was an 8pm game, around half time 10ish pm I was thinking if I keep watching this I am going to be way too tired to read my scriptures or pray for the day/night. It occured to me at that moment how one can have other Gods before Him. Just by doing them first or not doing things you are supposed to you are having other Gods before Him. Great learning experience to me. so anything can fall into this group, if we put anything or anyone before Christ first, we are putting them up as another God.

jo1952

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34-36

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

I don't think I need to keep giving any more examples. Enough said.

Sorry, not “enough Said”.

1) Even with your scriptural snarkery, you actually do not identify anybody other than God, Jesus Christ and Satan who claim to be a God. Maybe I can help you There are many Caesars, Kings, and dictators who also claim to be God.
2) I keep forgetting the fact that while claiming to be LDS, you discount all that is LDS. Therefore the clear reference in both Psalms 82:6 and John 10:34 to the “TG Man, Potential to become like Heavenly Father” would have no meaning. There isn’t even any serious Christian sect that claims that man is God, so your inspiration is unique and must be more correct than all else.
3) Again despite your smug references, neither Moses Joseph Smith, nor Thomas S. Monson make any claim to be a God.

So I guess it is you, Satan, a bunch of despots, and maybe a few other members of this board, are all who clam to be a God.
I would certainly like to hear from others on this board, who will join Jo1952, in claiming to be a God!

Regards,

George Clay

Frank, THE WORLD DOES HATE the prophets. Because we LDS do not, does not mean they are not prophets. Jesus had His followers, many of the prophets did, but the rest of the world hated them. So if you think that every person in the world must hate a prophet as proof that he is a prophet, then I disagree with that.

TZONE wrote:Haven't read the whole thing. I was watching footbal, don't care fore sports much, but its my college team. It was an 8pm game, around half time 10ish pm I was thinking if I keep watching this I am going to be way too tired to read my scriptures or pray for the day/night. It occured to me at that moment how one can have other Gods before Him. Just by doing them first or not doing things you are supposed to you are having other Gods before Him. Great learning experience to me. so anything can fall into this group, if we put anything or anyone before Christ first, we are putting them up as another God.

Yes, TZONE!

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Anything less; and we are committing idolatry. And, oh the secrets and understandings being revealed here!!!

gclayjr wrote:jo1952

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34-36

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

I don't think I need to keep giving any more examples. Enough said.

Sorry, not “enough Said”.

1) Even with your scriptural snarkery, you actually do not identify anybody other than God, Jesus Christ and Satan who claim to be a God. Maybe I can help you There are many Caesars, Kings, and dictators who also claim to be God.
2) I keep forgetting the fact that while claiming to be LDS, you discount all that is LDS. Therefore the clear reference in both Psalms 82:6 and John 10:34 to the “TG Man, Potential to become like Heavenly Father” would have no meaning. There isn’t even any serious Christian sect that claims that man is God, so your inspiration is unique and must be more correct than all else.
3) Again despite your smug references, neither Moses Joseph Smith, nor Thomas S. Monson make any claim to be a God.

So I guess it is you, Satan, a bunch of despots, and maybe a few other members of this board, are all who clam to be a God.
I would certainly like to hear from others on this board, who will join Jo1952, in claiming to be a God!

Regards,

George Clay

Yes, I am blasphemous for believing what our Lord taught us.

kathyn wrote:Frank, THE WORLD DOES HATE the prophets. Because we LDS do not, does not mean they are not prophets. Jesus had His followers, many of the prophets did, but the rest of the world hated them. So if you think that every person in the world must hate a prophet as proof that he is a prophet, then I disagree with that.

Your made up strawman is very weak as a response. Let me know when Monson spends a year in jail on trumped up charges. Let me know when he is shunned instead of accepted by world leaders.













Versus these more normal images of the prophets









I guess it is just me the images of Monson just don't seem to match the other prophets.

jo1952 wrote:

TBMormon wrote:

jo1952 wrote: He DID give us Christ to follow. Folllowing Christ, though, only gets us to where Christ lives. In order to get back to Father's kingdom, we need to look to Father....and not to Christ; as Christ is also a God...and Father, being a jealous God, cannot be reached while we allow another God to be before Him. This is part of the lesson being taught about the three Nephites. Nine of the Nephites were following and looking to Christ. That is what they wanted; and Christ told them they were blessed for wanting to follow Him. But the three Nephites who wanted to go to Father were told by Christ that they would be more blessed in Father's kingdom. Wherein we can't get to Father without going through Christ; we can't get to Father unless we look beyond Christ and don't keep Christ between us and the Father.

So from what you are saying, we are supposed to follow Christ for a time, but we need to eventually move past him to begin following the Father instead. I would say that it is the same with the prophets. I think the people in Moses' time were supposed to follow him. I can't really see the Lord not understanding that they weren't ready yet to take the next step. If it was okay for the 9 of the 12 disciples to still be following Christ, then it seems like it should be okay for the Israelites to continue following the prophet until they were ready for more.

Joseph Smith received more revelation than what he shared with us. We weren't able to bear or receive more than what he taught. As such, he did not teach us everything that he knew. Thus, we have only been able to follow in accordance to what he taught; but not as far as everything he knew. We are limited to how much he taught.

Paul spoke of the same thing to the church at Corinth; he even rebuked them. He could only feed them milk; even though they should have been ready for meat. He knew more than he was able to teach them. They could only follow Paul in accordance with what he taught them; but not as far as everything he knew. They were limited to how much he taught them.

Christ did the same thing. He only taught what the Father told Him to teach; but He did not teach everything that He knew. As such, we can only follow Christ in accordance with what He taught us; but not as far as everything He knew. We are limited to how much He taught us.

If we choose our prophets to be the ones we follow/allow to lead us, we will only be led to as far as they are teaching. We limit ourselves in accordance with what they teach. So, even if you believe that they cannot lead us astray, they will only lead us as far as what they are teaching.

The Holy Ghost, OTOH, teaches us more than any of these other sources. The Holy Ghost shall teach us ALL things (see John 14:26)! As such, the Holy Ghost is unlimited as to how far we can be led. The only limitation we have is the one we place upon ourselves wherein we can only receive what we are able to bear.

An heirarchy has been established in the created physical realms. Now that we are inside of this physical realm, we need to ascend through the heiarchy in order to get back into Father's presence. Nine of the twelve Nephite apostles were content to be with Jesus Christ inside of His kingdom; so that is where they were going to go. The other three Nephite apostles wanted to go beyond Christ's kingdom in order to be with Father in Father's kingdom; so that is where they are going to go.

We can't allow any other god to get between us and the God of the kingdom to which we desire to enter. To get to Christ, at some point we need to stop following our leaders in order to get past them. Father has given us Christ to follow in order to get into Christ's kingdom. We can't get to Father without going past Christ. WE get to choose where it is we want to go. If what we want to do is limit ourselves to being in Christ's kingdom, we can choose that. If we want to get to Father's kingdom, we can choose that; but we first need to get past Christ. Either way, we need to get to Christ before we can get out of where we currently are.

Thank you for expounding. You have some very interesting ideas.

Franktalk wrote:

TBMormon wrote: I would imagine that most LDS would say the same thing, that following the prophet means listening to the messages God gives us through him.

So no one stands when the message walks into the conference center? The message has its own door to come and go in the building. The new message can overturn the old message?

Prophet worship is alive and well in the church. Only when that is broken will the church repent.

If everyone in the church except you went to hell to appease your notion that the church is some how mislead, would that change your own salvation? How can you claim to be so spiritual and yet cut the church down so much, even to calling the leadership to repentance. Who appointed your views as judge and jury?

Franktalk wrote: ... I will be the first to admit when a prophecy is made by the leader of the church. Let me know when the prophet says "Thus saith the Lord". I will be all ears. ...

The D&C teaches that the revelations IN IT it are to be the LAW the church lives by. Since the D&C is full of instructions (most are not against any law) that the church does not live by or seem concerned about, it seems clear to me that the members really want leaders to be the law they live by-- not the D&C.

It could change if enough members had the gumption to not sustain the leaders, and seek to settle the controversies before changing their position. Members have a right to do that. And if they were fully converted to living by the D&C law they could change things simply by exercising the right of common consent in that direction.

Frank, another thing. Go to http://www.ldsmovement.pbworks.com and find "scriptures" in the navigator box and press it. It will listen dozens of "word of the Lord" revelations.

At most, only one of them can be correct, of course. All prophets were foreordained before this life. How do you know for sure that the one foreordained for our time was not simply just cast out of the Lord's Gentile church?

Franktalk wrote:

kathyn wrote: Frank, you missed the whole point. We, as LDS respect our leaders; we don't worship them. Whether the prophets of old were respected or not has nothing to do with my showing respect for today's prophet. Lehi, Nephi, Captain Moroni, Moses, etc. were respected by some and reviled by some. It's not that different today. (I think you just like to argue.) #-o

No, you have missed the point. The prophets have been hated by the world. Jesus was hated by the world. Joseph Smith was hated by the world. But all of the prophets since Joseph have not been hated by the world. And as time goes on the prophets are becoming loved by the world. Don't you see the problem here? Yes, people should listen to a prophet. Then double check what is said against the scriptures and the Holy Spirit. I will be the first to admit when a prophecy is made by the leader of the church. Let me know when the prophet says "Thus saith the Lord". I will be all ears. You may say I am being disrespectful. That is your opinion. I see myself as being respectful of God and not taking His messages lightly.

•

Prophet: A man who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives priesthood authority, commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God’s will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of His dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, a prophet may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ

http://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gos ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Under Key Definitions near the bottom.

freedomfighter wrote: If everyone in the church except you went to hell to appease your notion that the church is some how mislead, would that change your own salvation? How can you claim to be so spiritual and yet cut the church down so much, even to calling the leadership to repentance. Who appointed your views as judge and jury?

In the fulness of time all will come to God. I have faith that the will of God is such that the hearts of man will turn towards Him. This I believe with all of my heart. So in the fulness of time none will be in hell. The love of God could have no other outcome. Yet some would tell us that there is a small group who see heaven and the rest burn in hell for eternity. That seems like a teaching of man and a distortion of the scriptures. But if one takes a very narrow view of the scriptures they can see the world in the words. They can make the scriptures say a different gospel. It is my goal to explain my views and share how I came to them. It is you who is placing judgement on me. You seem to think because I hold to a different view than some leaders have stated that I am against them. That is not true. All things must happen as they were seen from the foundations of the world. I accept that. But I also accept that all things as dictated by the will of God will take place. In this I have hope.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: If everyone in the church except you went to hell to appease your notion that the church is some how mislead, would that change your own salvation? How can you claim to be so spiritual and yet cut the church down so much, even to calling the leadership to repentance. Who appointed your views as judge and jury?

In the fulness of time all will come to God. I have faith that the will of God is such that the hearts of man will turn towards Him. This I believe with all of my heart. So in the fulness of time none will be in hell. The love of God could have no other outcome. Yet some would tell us that there is a small group who see heaven and the rest burn in hell for eternity. That seems like a teaching of man and a distortion of the scriptures. But if one takes a very narrow view of the scriptures they can see the world in the words. They can make the scriptures say a different gospel. It is my goal to explain my views and share how I came to them. It is you who is placing judgement on me. You seem to think because I hold to a different view than some leaders have stated that I am against them. That is not true. All things must happen as they were seen from the foundations of the world. I accept that. But I also accept that all things as dictated by the will of God will take place. In this I have hope.

Either you believe D&C 76, or you don't. If you are true LDS you will. If it is something you think is distorted then you are not.
76 tells exactly who goes to the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial Glories. People in the lowest will have only the Holy Ghost as we do here. Terrestrial people will have the presence of the Son. Celestial people will have the presence of the Father and the Son. It's laid out right before one's eyes. There will be an innumerable amount of people in the Telestial. The majority will have gone to hell to suffer for their sins before going there.
This is God speaking:

Doctrine and Covenants 19:15-18
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Do you believe God when He says this? Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, do you believe D&C 19:15-18?

freedomfighter wrote: Do you believe God when He says this? Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, do you believe D&C 19:15-18?

I believe all of the scriptures, what I don't believe is what you try and make them say.

freedomfighter wrote: wrote:Do you believe God when He says this? Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, do you believe D&C 19:15-18?

The following questions are not for you to give answers to me; they are between you and God: Have you repented? (I believe that you repent; probably frequently and even earnestly.) Have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise? (If not, why not? Perhaps you haven't repented enough---or repented of what you need to repent of. Even though you were baptized by water; and even though you have asked for forgiveness of sins you have committed since that time...even though you renew your baptismal covenant every time you take the Sacrament.) Have you been to the Temple and performed all of the ordinances you have been taught about yourself? (My guess is yes.)

We can quote scripture 24/7. We can repent 24/7. We can go to the Temple. We can enter covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations 24/7. If these things have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, those things of are no efficacy when we are dead.

So...to use your own vernacular: Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, [now, my words:] have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise?

If not, perhaps you haven't repented of all of the things which you need to repent of. It behooves every single one of us to figure out what all we need to repent of. With this in mind, here are the verses you pointed to:

D&C 19:15-18:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

FF, I recognize that you are anxiously engaged in the Lord's work to the extent that you are currently able to understand it; in accordance with the amount of truth you are currently able to bear and are ready to receive. All of the quoting and repenting and the going to the Temple which we do is not a guaranty. The guaranty comes with the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise. Having been taught about ordinances and participating in them, having been taught scripture--even being a scholar of scripture--it is not enough. These things must be experienced with spiritual "knowing"...not just being able to rattle off a list of the things we have been taught, and not just by physically completing the tasks on that list.

jo1952 wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: wrote:Do you believe God when He says this? Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, do you believe D&C 19:15-18?

The following questions are not for you to give answers to me; they are between you and God: Have you repented? (I believe that you repent; probably frequently and even earnestly.) Have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise? (If not, why not? Perhaps you haven't repented enough---or repented of what you need to repent of. Even though you were baptized by water; and even though you have asked for forgiveness of sins you have committed since that time...even though you renew your baptismal covenant every time you take the Sacrament.) Have you been to the Temple and performed all of the ordinances you have been taught about yourself? (My guess is yes.)

We can quote scripture 24/7. We can repent 24/7. We can go to the Temple. We can enter covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations 24/7. If these things have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, those things of are no efficacy when we are dead.

So...to use your own vernacular: Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, [now, my words:] have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise?

If not, perhaps you haven't repented of all of the things which you need to repent of. It behooves every single one of us to figure out what all we need to repent of. With this in mind, here are the verses you pointed to:

D&C 19:15-18:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

FF, I recognize that you are anxiously engaged in the Lord's work to the extent that you are currently able to understand it; in accordance with the amount of truth you are currently able to bear and are ready to receive. All of the quoting and repenting and the going to the Temple which we do is not a guaranty. The guaranty comes with the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise. Having been taught about ordinances and participating in them, having been taught scripture--even being a scholar of scripture--it is not enough. These things must be experienced with spiritual "knowing"...not just being able to rattle off a list of the things we have been taught, and not just by physically completing the tasks on that list.

What about those that died that never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel?

Epistemology wrote:

jo1952 wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: wrote:Do you believe God when He says this? Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, do you believe D&C 19:15-18?

The following questions are not for you to give answers to me; they are between you and God: Have you repented? (I believe that you repent; probably frequently and even earnestly.) Have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise? (If not, why not? Perhaps you haven't repented enough---or repented of what you need to repent of. Even though you were baptized by water; and even though you have asked for forgiveness of sins you have committed since that time...even though you renew your baptismal covenant every time you take the Sacrament.) Have you been to the Temple and performed all of the ordinances you have been taught about yourself? (My guess is yes.)

We can quote scripture 24/7. We can repent 24/7. We can go to the Temple. We can enter covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations 24/7. If these things have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, those things of are no efficacy when we are dead.

So...to use your own vernacular: Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, [now, my words:] have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise?

If not, perhaps you haven't repented of all of the things which you need to repent of. It behooves every single one of us to figure out what all we need to repent of. With this in mind, here are the verses you pointed to:

D&C 19:15-18:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

FF, I recognize that you are anxiously engaged in the Lord's work to the extent that you are currently able to understand it; in accordance with the amount of truth you are currently able to bear and are ready to receive. All of the quoting and repenting and the going to the Temple which we do is not a guaranty. The guaranty comes with the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise. Having been taught about ordinances and participating in them, having been taught scripture--even being a scholar of scripture--it is not enough. These things must be experienced with spiritual "knowing"...not just being able to rattle off a list of the things we have been taught, and not just by physically completing the tasks on that list.

What about those that died that never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel?

This is where we need to deal with D&C 138 and what appears to conflict with what is taught in D&C 132. In order for both sections to be teaching truth, they must be reconciled; something I have not yet come to terms with. I have some thoughts about it; including that D&C 138 may have been revealed to Joseph F. Smith as a personal revelation for him only; not meant for the entire Church. It leaves many loose ends. We may be performing ordinances which are not sealing us to what we think we are being sealed to. For instance, the end times bring to pass a "new heaven" and a "new earth". Is the work for the dead keeping them attached to the old earth and old heaven in which we now exist? Is this purposed to keep the same family of spirits together with which we are now connected; as opposed to being separated from them in some new world?...until such time we have all been exalted? Lots of questions; most unanswered.

We still don't know everything that Joseph knew. We still don't know everything Jesus knew.

I was going to do a commentary on section 76 but I felt I was not to share. Maybe in the future I will do so but not now. I will say that after reading the section many things came to mind that are just under the surface. For those who can discern I recommend reading the section until it opens.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: Do you believe God when He says this? Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, do you believe D&C 19:15-18?

I believe all of the scriptures, what I don't believe is what you try and make them say.

You surprise me, Franktalk. What you are really saying is that God didn't really mean what he said about men suffering for their own sins in hell. These verses are so plain, only a small few could attempt to refute it. Do you refuse to believe Christ? Is His gospel all peaches and cream? Do you refuse to believe men will suffer for their own sins if not repented of? What gospel are you teaching? Is it Christ's? He states very plainly that if we repent and take up our cross and follow him, he will remit our sins and remember them no more. But for those who refuse to do so, they will suffer even as he did. He will not save anyone IN their sins. The scriptures declare this in several places, even in the bible. As a bible enthusiast, you should know this already.

Is this your mindset?:

2 Nephi 28:8
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.


Would you care to reread this and grasp what is being said here? These are not my words nor did I offer an interpretation. These are straight from God's mouth.

jo1952 wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: wrote:Do you believe God when He says this? Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, do you believe D&C 19:15-18?

The following questions are not for you to give answers to me; they are between you and God: Have you repented? (I believe that you repent; probably frequently and even earnestly.) Have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise? (If not, why not? Perhaps you haven't repented enough---or repented of what you need to repent of. Even though you were baptized by water; and even though you have asked for forgiveness of sins you have committed since that time...even though you renew your baptismal covenant every time you take the Sacrament.) Have you been to the Temple and performed all of the ordinances you have been taught about yourself? (My guess is yes.)

We can quote scripture 24/7. We can repent 24/7. We can go to the Temple. We can enter covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations 24/7. If these things have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, those things of are no efficacy when we are dead.

So...to use your own vernacular: Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, [now, my words:] have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise?

If not, perhaps you haven't repented of all of the things which you need to repent of. It behooves every single one of us to figure out what all we need to repent of. With this in mind, here are the verses you pointed to:

D&C 19:15-18:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

FF, I recognize that you are anxiously engaged in the Lord's work to the extent that you are currently able to understand it; in accordance with the amount of truth you are currently able to bear and are ready to receive. All of the quoting and repenting and the going to the Temple which we do is not a guaranty. The guaranty comes with the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise. Having been taught about ordinances and participating in them, having been taught scripture--even being a scholar of scripture--it is not enough. These things must be experienced with spiritual "knowing"...not just being able to rattle off a list of the things we have been taught, and not just by physically completing the tasks on that list.

OKAY! You forgot to mention that the Holy Spirit of Promise...is the Holy Ghost. You also forgot to mention that once we repent of all our sins, exercise faith and have hope for a better world, through faith, the assurance of things, the evidence of things not seen, that said hope can become an anchor to our souls in helping us to remain steadfast and immovable to the end...thus, if we have stayed faithful, we are then brought before God to be received into his glory. It is through the merits of Christ, not our own. If we remain faithful, the Holy Ghost will sanction our righteous efforts, otherwise, none of us would get there. Read in the BoM Alma chapters 40-42
I suggest you worry about your own sins and not mine. I am in a relationship with Christ that no one else can enter into. Each of us must do the same. We are not saved collectively, but individually, each having the Savior as our superior partner in order to get where we want to go...God's presence.

Otherwise:

Alma 42:28
28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.

Chapter 40
Christ brings to pass the resurrection of all men—The righteous dead go to paradise and the wicked to outer darkness to await the day of their resurrection—All things will be restored to their proper and perfect frame in the Resurrection. About 74 B.C.

Chapter 41
In the Resurrection men come forth to a state of endless happiness or endless misery—Wickedness never was happiness—Carnal men are without God in the world—Every person receives again in the Restoration the characteristics and attributes acquired in mortality. About 74 B.C.

Chapter 42
Mortality is a probationary time to enable man to repent and serve God—The Fall brought temporal and spiritual death upon all mankind—Redemption comes through repentance—God Himself atones for the sins of the world—Mercy is for those who repent—All others are subject to God’s justice—Mercy comes because of the Atonement—Only the truly penitent are saved. About 74 B.C.

Epistemology wrote:

jo1952 wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: wrote:Do you believe God when He says this? Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, do you believe D&C 19:15-18?

The following questions are not for you to give answers to me; they are between you and God: Have you repented? (I believe that you repent; probably frequently and even earnestly.) Have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise? (If not, why not? Perhaps you haven't repented enough---or repented of what you need to repent of. Even though you were baptized by water; and even though you have asked for forgiveness of sins you have committed since that time...even though you renew your baptismal covenant every time you take the Sacrament.) Have you been to the Temple and performed all of the ordinances you have been taught about yourself? (My guess is yes.)

We can quote scripture 24/7. We can repent 24/7. We can go to the Temple. We can enter covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations 24/7. If these things have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, those things of are no efficacy when we are dead.

So...to use your own vernacular: Don't skirt around it, tell it straight. Again, [now, my words:] have you been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise?

If not, perhaps you haven't repented of all of the things which you need to repent of. It behooves every single one of us to figure out what all we need to repent of. With this in mind, here are the verses you pointed to:

D&C 19:15-18:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

FF, I recognize that you are anxiously engaged in the Lord's work to the extent that you are currently able to understand it; in accordance with the amount of truth you are currently able to bear and are ready to receive. All of the quoting and repenting and the going to the Temple which we do is not a guaranty. The guaranty comes with the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise. Having been taught about ordinances and participating in them, having been taught scripture--even being a scholar of scripture--it is not enough. These things must be experienced with spiritual "knowing"...not just being able to rattle off a list of the things we have been taught, and not just by physically completing the tasks on that list.

What about those that died that never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel?

D&C 137:7 (7–10)

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

freedomfighter wrote: You surprise me, Franktalk. What you are really saying is ..........

What I am saying is what I said. All of that other stuff you wrote is not of me. This is normal for you so no surprise.