LDS Freedom Forum

Aussie,

I relate very strongly to where you're at. On some level, I consider myself an intellectual atheist (agnostic if you prefer). I think the preponderance of evidence fails to support a loving Creator of the universe. When I'm wearing my intellectual or analytical hat, arguments for Mormonism, Christianity, and all the rest seem completely ridiculous. They look like the desperate flailings of a religion on its last leg.

On the other side, I want to believe there is a loving God who has a plan for us. The very best I can do on that front is to choose to believe, nothing compels me to it, it is just a choice I've decided to make. The key thing to remember here is that faith is fundamentally tautological. Someone that chooses to exercise faith on a particular topic will always find a way to reconcile what they're seeing with how they believe the world works. I don't intend that as a slight to you, or as a dig against those defending their faith. It is just a fundamental truth of someone exercising faith.

This is going to occur in every faith. Biblical apologists go through the same mental gymnastics to reconcile all the problems they have that Mormon apologists do. From the outside, it looks ridiculous, from the inside most adherents are either unaware or accept one or more of the reconciliations provided by apologists.

This Last War stuff will follow this pattern exactly. Each person that comes across this information is going to make the choice whether they believe that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be or not. Once that choice is made they'll back into what they need to believe about the relationship it has with The Last War et al. They aren't following the Scientific Method to try and discover the truth. Henry Eyring got it basically right in Faith of a Scientist. At some point you choose to place your Faith before your ability to reason and count on the Lord to make everything add up. If you do it the other way around you'll end up with no Faith and a constantly shifting body of knowledge that amounts to precisely nothing if there is an afterlife.

I don't intend any of this as criticism to you or those that choose to believe. If you want to retain your faith in SOMETHING, you'll have to give it priority over everything else. It is maddening on some level, you've clearly been struggling with this previously as it relates to Mormonism. The same line of inquiry you're on now will ultimately eradicate your faith in the Bible as well. You may be content with that, I wasn't.

Whatever you choose, I hope you find the peace you're seeking.

Someone that chooses to exercise faith on a particular topic will always find a way to reconcile what they're seeing with how they believe the world works. I don't intend that as a slight to you, or as a dig against those defending their faith. It is just a fundamental truth of someone exercising faith.

This is going to occur in every faith.

Faith is good.

But then, how much 'real' time should be spent attempting to bolster one's faith with 'proofs'?

The kicker is what one does with his/her faith in 'real' time.

buffalo_girl wrote:

Someone that chooses to exercise faith on a particular topic will always find a way to reconcile what they're seeing with how they believe the world works. I don't intend that as a slight to you, or as a dig against those defending their faith. It is just a fundamental truth of someone exercising faith.

This is going to occur in every faith.

Faith is good.

But then, how much 'real' time should be spent attempting to bolster one's faith with 'proofs'?

The kicker is what one does with his/her faith in 'real' time.

It's my opinion that the best "proofs" for faith come from organic study that isn't out looking for proofs. The closest I have every come personally to feeling a spiritual confirmation of anything weren't when I was reading some brilliantly argued apologetic piece, but when I was doing a topical study in the scriptures looking to better understand a particular issue.

kathyn wrote:Natasha and Keep the Faith, count me in your corner. I have been dismayed by all the negative criticism of the Church and the Brethren, since I hold them in high regard. Freedom of speech is one thing, but much has been blatantly anti-LDS and I don't know why it's tolerated; yet if we try to respond, we are called on the carpet for it...because it's "unkind'. Really??? How is it kind to keep mocking those of us who are faithful followers of Christ and the Church?

It's time more of us stood up for the Church and the Brethren, and quit being uber-critical of them. it's just causing a great divide among us. It's great to ask honest questions, but lately there are more and more accusations and they are not honest ones. They are an attempt to bring down the Church and I vehemently resist that.

We can only get as close to Christ as the person(s) whose teachings we follow. The Church is leading us no closer to Christ than she was when Joseph was alive. In fact, because she was already under condemnation, and the members weren't able or ready, Joseph didn't teach everything he knew. Since that time, things which were being taught when Joseph was alive, are no longer being taught. As such, we are teaching less than was being taught; where we are led is more limited than where Joseph was leading. Along with correlation has come the rule that individuals can't share what the Holy Spirit is revealing to them if what is being revealed doesn't agree with previously approved teaching materials. We have created a fixed amount of truth which is allowed to be shared.

The Church is admittedly teaching only milk. As such, when we follow only milk teaching, we can only achieve milk understanding. This doesn't get us any closer to Christ. It gets us only to the limited amount of what the Church is teaching. On one hand, the Church teaches us to follow the Holy Spirit. But when we DO follow the Holy Spirit, we are only allowed to listen to the Holy Spirit in accordance with milk. If an individual receives any meat, we can't share it. In reality, the Church is NOT allowing us to be led by everything the Holy Spirit is able to teach us. She only allows us to be led by the Holy Spirit up to the point of where the Church is teaching us. So, even though the Holy Spirit will lead us to ALL TRUTH, the Church only leads us to the amount of Truth which the Church teaches. We need to decide for ourselves if we want to be limited to the amount of truth which the Church leads us to; or do we want to allow the Holy Spirit to lead us individually to more Truth? Do we want to be led to the milk limit of Truth? Or do we want to be led to the unlimited Truth? It used to be that individuals were allowed to share meat; but no longer. It is not the members of the Church who changed the "rules" of what could be shared and taught; it is the Church who keeps putting more and more limitations on what can be taught.

The divide among us is the desire by some to be led to more Truth by the Holy Spirit, and not be limited to only what the Church allows to be seen and heard; vs those who are content with what the Church leaders are allowing to be taught. For those who choose to learn only what the correlation department is willing to teach; then that is as far as those members will be able to go. If we haven't been able to see Christ yet through what the Church is teaching, you aren't going to get any closer to Christ; because you have already limited how close you are in accordance with what she is teaching. For those who choose to allow the Holy Spirit be their guide, they are only limited by the amount of truth which they are able to bear and receive; but at least they do not remain static in a pre-determined "allowed", correlated box of Truth. If they haven't yet seen Christ, at least they are still moving closer; because they have determined that it is the Holy Spirit who leads to all truth, as no man has ever led us as far as the Holy Spirit can lead us.

keep the faith wrote:

keep the faith wrote:

Gone Fishing wrote:Dang.
I was good even in 2007.
Proud of that post.
That's you, isnt it Mark.
I thought you got banned

I did. Defenders of the faith have a limited lifespan here. Anti's last forever. When are we going to disneyland together? I'll grab Shadow and you bring the Col along and we will rock the place. You buy lunch and the entrance tickets. Just use all that tithing money you now keep as excess stash. I'm too poor after paying The Lord my 10% along with all those other offerings.

That's not why you were banned Mark, and what you said there is untrue. Please don't be bitter and slander Brian and the mods. ;)

Keep the Faith:
So enlighten everyone here Jules on why I did get banned. After responding to a very negative and attacking blog about the church and those called to preside over it by someone named Rock Waterman I was ushered to the door here by mods here who don't think its being nice to reply honestly to these incessant attacks aimed at the TCOJCOLDS that continue to this day. Yet someone like Aussie can come on this forum for 6 years and level one attack after another at the church and the Brethren and any posters who dare cross him and he is free to do so to his hearts content. Sure seems to be a double standard here in my book but obviously you see it differently. You always have. Just look at this thread. I never attacked Watermans diatribes against the church like Aussie is attacking posters here for believing in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I'm not bitter at all. Brians forum has in large part turned into a sounding board for all the disavowed and disillusioned out there who love to hate on the church and the Prophets. I told him that would happen if all the evil speaking of the Prophets and defaming accusations made against them and the church continued to be tolerated on the forum. I have tried over the years to give some balance and point out some of the errors in those harsh judgments made against the church by many here and those outside the forum. You can call that slander. I call it fairness.[/quote]


I didn't realize keep the faith was mark but I guess the Hula pie comments should have given it away. The forum hasn't been the same since mark shadow and heck I would even include col. in that group were banned. I have followed this forum for 5 years and there has been a significant change and not all of it has been by new members. I have seen many fall further from the standard doctrine and belief of the truth. Many have become enlightened. I have never been banned or warned but I must say things have become really lax in tolerance for some and I was blown away when mark and shadow were banned yet Aussie goes on and on. It's almost like many here are addicted to helping those who say they are asking questions or searching for truth as you get a pass for almost anything you write if you state that is your case. NEWS FLASH - this is an anti mormon thread - Aussie has been able to bring his Anti Mormon Website Searches home to LDSFF page after page. Really we are here defending the Book of Mormon page after page here? I hope nobody on this thread is warned for what they type because if Aussie is still here for bashing the Book of Mormon what could top that?

but when I was doing a topical study in the scriptures looking to better understand a particular issue.

Yes, in depth study of the scriptures is good, too.

I'm talking about applying the principles we profess to believe in the physical, mortal existence we are experiencing.

If we believe the LDS concept of a Council in Heaven prior to our test run in mortality, we should have received tons of 'theory' in those councils about how important personal performance in our temporary physical form will be to an individual's eternal outcome. We may have even had some 'coaching' prior to becoming mortal. What I'm saying here is purely theory, right? We may choose to believe because It 'rings true' and there are scriptures - even in the Bible - to support this 'theory'.

Believing in a concept of what is right to do according to a chosen belief system is NOT applying the theory to ACTION or CREATION. Believing remains static until applied and 'proven' in the physical plane.

When the concept is brought into ACTION upon the physical plane we can better ascertain its value according to the outcome achieved.

It's the old adage, "Talk's cheap!"

buffalo_girl wrote:

but when I was doing a topical study in the scriptures looking to better understand a particular issue.

Yes, in depth study of the scriptures is good, too.

I'm talking about applying the principles we profess to believe in the physical, mortal existence we are experiencing.

If we believe the LDS concept of a Council in Heaven prior to our test run in mortality, we should have received tons of 'theory' in those councils about how important personal performance in our temporary physical form will be to an individual's eternal outcome. We may have even had some 'coaching' prior to becoming mortal. What I'm saying here is purely theory, right? We may choose to believe because It 'rings true' and there are scriptures - even in the Bible - to support this 'theory'.

Believing in a concept of what is right to do according to a chosen belief system is NOT applying the theory to ACTION or CREATION. Believing remains static until applied and 'proven' in the physical plane.

When the concept is brought into ACTION upon the physical plane we can better ascertain its value according to the outcome achieved.

It's the old adage, "Talk's cheap!"

That's a good distinction. I misunderstood what you were asking. I buy into the idea that having Faith implies action, likewise for believing. Saying it doesn't mean anything, if you aren't doing it, it indicates what you really believe.

Really though, for someone in my position, just choosing to think in a faith based way is really challenging and has to be the first step.

It's almost like many here are addicted to helping those who say they are asking questions or searching for truth as you get a pass for almost anything you write if you state that is your case.

Good point!

That's one of the reasons I posted that quote from Mark Hoffman's parole interview about 'toying' with the religious beliefs of others.

Then-Chairwoman Victoria Palacios probed his motivations for creating documents that seemed to question the origin of the LDS Church:

“You seem to toy with the religious beliefs of others.”

Hofmann replied:

“Toying with them was an experimentation on my part, to see why they believe what they do.”

This thread increasingly resembles a bored housebound cat playing with a catnip mouse.

e-eye wrote:
I didn't realize keep the faith was mark but I guess the Hula pie comments should have given it away. The forum hasn't been the same since mark shadow and heck I would even include col. in that group were banned. I have followed this forum for 5 years and there has been a significant change and not all of it has been by new members. I have seen many fall further from the standard doctrine and belief of the truth. Many have become enlightened. I have never been banned or warned but I must say things have become really lax in tolerance for some and I was blown away when mark and shadow were banned yet Aussie goes on and on. It's almost like many here are addicted to helping those who say they are asking questions or searching for truth as you get a pass for almost anything you write if you state that is your case. NEWS FLASH - this is an anti mormon thread - Aussie has been able to bring his Anti Mormon Website Searches home to LDSFF page after page. Really we are here defending the Book of Mormon page after page here? I hope nobody on this thread is warned for what they type because if Aussie is still here for bashing the Book of Mormon what could top that?

Amazing isn't it? Slander Joseph. Slander the Book of Mormon. Slander the entire restoration labeling it wrought with fraud and full of lies. The guys over at the exmo site are probably wetting themselves with glee. The tolerance level here for anti-mormon crap has reached absurdity levels. But don't hurt anyones feelings if they choose to openly trash everything Latter Day Saints hold sacred and true. Whats next? Public desecration of the endowment ceremony? This reminds me in a way of political correctness gone mad. I think Pres. Packer alluded to this recently in a conference address when he said:

"Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it."

One anti attack after another on an LDS oriented web site? Not cool.

keep the faith wrote:

e-eye wrote:
I didn't realize keep the faith was mark but I guess the Hula pie comments should have given it away. The forum hasn't been the same since mark shadow and heck I would even include col. in that group were banned. I have followed this forum for 5 years and there has been a significant change and not all of it has been by new members. I have seen many fall further from the standard doctrine and belief of the truth. Many have become enlightened. I have never been banned or warned but I must say things have become really lax in tolerance for some and I was blown away when mark and shadow were banned yet Aussie goes on and on. It's almost like many here are addicted to helping those who say they are asking questions or searching for truth as you get a pass for almost anything you write if you state that is your case. NEWS FLASH - this is an anti mormon thread - Aussie has been able to bring his Anti Mormon Website Searches home to LDSFF page after page. Really we are here defending the Book of Mormon page after page here? I hope nobody on this thread is warned for what they type because if Aussie is still here for bashing the Book of Mormon what could top that?

Amazing isn't it? Slander Joseph. Slander the Book of Mormon. Slander the entire restoration labeling it wrought with fraud and full of lies. The guys over at the exmo site are probably wetting themselves with glee. The tolerance level here for anti-mormon crap has reached absurdity levels. But don't hurt anyones feelings if they choose to openly trash everything Latter Day Saints hold sacred and true. Whats next? Public desecration of the endowment ceremony? This reminds me in a way of political correctness gone mad. I think Pres. Packer alluded to this recently in a conference address when he said:

"Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it."

One anti attack after another on an LDS oriented web site? Not cool.

Late to the game.... MARK!? Haha... good to see we have a commonality finally. I've taken a break from politics when I saw the in-your-face evil speaking of the Lord's anointed. I think it's ironic to see a website titled "LDS" when the owner of the site believes that the current prophets and apostles are fallen and will be cleansed with the Lord's righteous fire. (I would insert a picture from the Indiana Jones movie which depicts a Nazi's face melting when trying to tempt God by opening the Ark if I didn't already know by experience that it would get immediately deleted).

InfoWarrior82 wrote:I think it's ironic to see a website titled "LDS" when the owner of the site believes that the current prophets and apostles are fallen and will be cleansed with the Lord's righteous fire.

Would you clarify by sharing any posts making those claims and by whom. I'm very curious who made these statements. Thanks.

coachmarc wrote:

InfoWarrior82 wrote:I think it's ironic to see a website titled "LDS" when the owner of the site believes that the current prophets and apostles are fallen and will be cleansed with the Lord's righteous fire.

Would you clarify by sharing any posts making those claims and by whom. I'm very curious who made these statements. Thanks.

Oh, just my conclusion based on deductive reasoning. Hey, I could be wrong! Maybe Brian could chime in here and put on the record exactly what his stance is on current prophets and apostles. It's high time he did. Probably won't though. Too controversial.

I see that a member of the family has chimed in, and is leaving. Sigh.

AussiOi is a member of my broader family, and these questions and points come to mind --

Mosiah 5

1 And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them.

2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.

3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.

4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy.

5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God.

6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant.

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.

10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.

11 And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts.

12 I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you.

13 For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?

I testify that this from Mosiah 5 in the Book of Mormon is TRUE, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
The passage is both a comfort (to some) and a warning (to others).

Take heed, my friends!

InfoWarrior82 wrote:

keep the faith wrote:

e-eye wrote:
I didn't realize keep the faith was mark but I guess the Hula pie comments should have given it away. The forum hasn't been the same since mark shadow and heck I would even include col. in that group were banned. I have followed this forum for 5 years and there has been a significant change and not all of it has been by new members. I have seen many fall further from the standard doctrine and belief of the truth. Many have become enlightened. I have never been banned or warned but I must say things have become really lax in tolerance for some and I was blown away when mark and shadow were banned yet Aussie goes on and on. It's almost like many here are addicted to helping those who say they are asking questions or searching for truth as you get a pass for almost anything you write if you state that is your case. NEWS FLASH - this is an anti mormon thread - Aussie has been able to bring his Anti Mormon Website Searches home to LDSFF page after page. Really we are here defending the Book of Mormon page after page here? I hope nobody on this thread is warned for what they type because if Aussie is still here for bashing the Book of Mormon what could top that?

Amazing isn't it? Slander Joseph. Slander the Book of Mormon. Slander the entire restoration labeling it wrought with fraud and full of lies. The guys over at the exmo site are probably wetting themselves with glee. The tolerance level here for anti-mormon crap has reached absurdity levels. But don't hurt anyones feelings if they choose to openly trash everything Latter Day Saints hold sacred and true. Whats next? Public desecration of the endowment ceremony? This reminds me in a way of political correctness gone mad. I think Pres. Packer alluded to this recently in a conference address when he said:

"Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it."

One anti attack after another on an LDS oriented web site? Not cool.

Late to the game.... MARK!? Haha... good to see we have a commonality finally. I've taken a break from politics when I saw the in-your-face evil speaking of the Lord's anointed. I think it's ironic to see a website titled "LDS" when the owner of the site believes that the current prophets and apostles are fallen and will be cleansed with the Lord's righteous fire. (I would insert a picture from the Indiana Jones movie which depicts a Nazi's face melting when trying to tempt God by opening the Ark if I didn't already know by experience that it would get immediately deleted).

In the flesh Brother man. We have always been united in a love for the gospel and the church of Jesus Christ restored in these latter days through a Prophet of the Lord. Thats all that matters in my book. Zion or bust infowarrior-san! :ymhug:

keep the faith wrote: In the flesh Brother man. We have always been united in a love for the gospel and the church of Jesus Christ restored in these latter days through a Prophet of the Lord. Thats all that matters in my book. Zion or bust infowarrior-san! :ymhug:

Amen to that.

keep the faith wrote:

e-eye wrote:
I didn't realize keep the faith was mark but I guess the Hula pie comments should have given it away. The forum hasn't been the same since mark shadow and heck I would even include col. in that group were banned. I have followed this forum for 5 years and there has been a significant change and not all of it has been by new members. I have seen many fall further from the standard doctrine and belief of the truth. Many have become enlightened. I have never been banned or warned but I must say things have become really lax in tolerance for some and I was blown away when mark and shadow were banned yet Aussie goes on and on. It's almost like many here are addicted to helping those who say they are asking questions or searching for truth as you get a pass for almost anything you write if you state that is your case. NEWS FLASH - this is an anti mormon thread - Aussie has been able to bring his Anti Mormon Website Searches home to LDSFF page after page. Really we are here defending the Book of Mormon page after page here? I hope nobody on this thread is warned for what they type because if Aussie is still here for bashing the Book of Mormon what could top that?

Amazing isn't it? Slander Joseph. Slander the Book of Mormon. Slander the entire restoration labeling it wrought with fraud and full of lies. The guys over at the exmo site are probably wetting themselves with glee. The tolerance level here for anti-mormon crap has reached absurdity levels. But don't hurt anyones feelings if they choose to openly trash everything Latter Day Saints hold sacred and true. Whats next? Public desecration of the endowment ceremony? This reminds me in a way of political correctness gone mad. I think Pres. Packer alluded to this recently in a conference address when he said:

"Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it."

One anti attack after another on an LDS oriented web site? Not cool.

There is a difference between seeking for truth and asking questions vs pointing out that there are those among us who are hampering our ability to find and see what it is we are seeking. It still all comes down to only being able to see what we want to see; which turns out to limit what we are able to receive. For instance, the Church encourages our support of the Constitution, which includes freedom of speech. Yet the Church does not allow the free speech of her own members; free speech is punished when your speech includes daring to ask her questions about her own actions. She holds herself to a different set of standards than she holds the members. Christ's own actions were greater than the Church's actions. He forgave; even forgiving those who crucified Him. That is the example He set. We are supposed to be His church; why aren't we following His example?

Here on LDSFF, we are allowed to vent and ask questions not only about our leaders and the Church in general; we are also allowed to discuss uncorrelated guidance which the Holy Spirit is teaching us. THIS is the example Christ set. He questioned and even rebuked His religious leaders; while also exercising free speech...speaking about things Father was telling Him He could share, which were beyond what the leaders wanted Him to say. So, are the leaders following Christ's example in this? Or is this forum more in line with how Christ functioned in His method of teaching? Christ taught an extremely important lesson when He asked His apostles what THEY believed BEFORE He told them what He believed. When was the last time our leaders asked US what we believe? Instead, THEY are TELLING us what to believe; and it must be accordance with what they have correlated. We aren't allowed to believe anything other than what has become creedal. This is the very thing Joseph was told NOT to participate in.

InfoWarrior82 wrote:

coachmarc wrote:

InfoWarrior82 wrote:I think it's ironic to see a website titled "LDS" when the owner of the site believes that the current prophets and apostles are fallen and will be cleansed with the Lord's righteous fire.

Would you clarify by sharing any posts making those claims and by whom. I'm very curious who made these statements. Thanks.

Oh, just my conclusion based on deductive reasoning. Hey, I could be wrong! Maybe Brian could chime in here and put on the record exactly what his stance is on current prophets and apostles. It's high time he did. Probably won't though. Too controversial.

I don't know if I would go that far as to why Brian allows what he does but I would not be honest in my words if I didn't say the exact thoughts had not crossed my mind as to what is allowed to go on. It's Brian's website so he can do as he will and I have no beef with that but I am disappointed that it seems we are all playing the same game here but not all the rules are being followed by everyone or maybe the rules have changed and just have not been updated.

jo1952 wrote:

keep the faith wrote:

e-eye wrote:
I didn't realize keep the faith was mark but I guess the Hula pie comments should have given it away. The forum hasn't been the same since mark shadow and heck I would even include col. in that group were banned. I have followed this forum for 5 years and there has been a significant change and not all of it has been by new members. I have seen many fall further from the standard doctrine and belief of the truth. Many have become enlightened. I have never been banned or warned but I must say things have become really lax in tolerance for some and I was blown away when mark and shadow were banned yet Aussie goes on and on. It's almost like many here are addicted to helping those who say they are asking questions or searching for truth as you get a pass for almost anything you write if you state that is your case. NEWS FLASH - this is an anti mormon thread - Aussie has been able to bring his Anti Mormon Website Searches home to LDSFF page after page. Really we are here defending the Book of Mormon page after page here? I hope nobody on this thread is warned for what they type because if Aussie is still here for bashing the Book of Mormon what could top that?

Amazing isn't it? Slander Joseph. Slander the Book of Mormon. Slander the entire restoration labeling it wrought with fraud and full of lies. The guys over at the exmo site are probably wetting themselves with glee. The tolerance level here for anti-mormon crap has reached absurdity levels. But don't hurt anyones feelings if they choose to openly trash everything Latter Day Saints hold sacred and true. Whats next? Public desecration of the endowment ceremony? This reminds me in a way of political correctness gone mad. I think Pres. Packer alluded to this recently in a conference address when he said:

"Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it."

One anti attack after another on an LDS oriented web site? Not cool.

There is a difference between seeking for truth and asking questions vs pointing out that there are those among us who are hampering our ability to find and see what it is we are seeking. It still all comes down to only being able to see what we want to see; which turns out to limit what we are able to receive. For instance, the Church encourages our support of the Constitution, which includes freedom of speech. Yet the Church does not allow the free speech of her own members; free speech is punished when your speech includes daring to ask her questions about her own actions. She holds herself to a different set of standards than she holds the members. Christ's own actions were greater than the Church's actions. He forgave; even forgiving those who crucified Him. That is the example He set. We are supposed to be His church; why aren't we following His example?

Here on LDSFF, we are allowed to vent and ask questions not only about our leaders and the Church in general; we are also allowed to discuss uncorrelated guidance which the Holy Spirit is teaching us. THIS is the example Christ set. He questioned and even rebuked His religious leaders; while also exercising free speech...speaking about things Father was telling Him He could share, which were beyond what the leaders wanted Him to say. So, are the leaders following Christ's example in this? Or is this forum more in line with how Christ functioned in His method of teaching? Christ taught an extremely important lesson when He asked His apostles what THEY believed BEFORE He told them what He believed. When was the last time our leaders asked US what we believe? Instead, THEY are TELLING us what to believe; and it must be accordance with what they have correlated. We aren't allowed to believe anything other than what has become creedal. This is the very thing Joseph was told NOT to participate in.

Church leaders don't rebuke and excommunicate because they fear they might be "found out" and exposed as frauds and liars. It is done because the Lord's house is a house of order. You have it backwards, Jo. We do not dictate the will of the Lord. To use a military phrase: $(#&@ rolls downhill. If you really feel that the church needs to go in a new direction, by all means, do what you gotta do. Organize protests, write letters, start a speaking tour, etc. IF you are doing what the Lords wants, there is no doubt you will be fruitful and bring us all into a higher sphere! Maybe you can start a new re-reorganized LDS church and actually be the stone cut out of the mountain without hands! You go girl! :ymparty:

DrJones wrote:I see that a member of the family has chimed in, and is leaving. Sigh.

AussiOi is a member of my broader family, and these questions and points come to mind --

Mosiah 5

1 And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them.

2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.

3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.

4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy.

5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God.

6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant.

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.

10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.

11 And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts.

12 I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you.

13 For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?

I testify that this from Mosiah 5 in the Book of Mormon is TRUE, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
The passage is both a comfort (to some) and a warning (to others).

Take heed, my friends!

I am trying to understand where you are going with this Doc. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your intent. Are you saying that comments made back to Aussie here are inappropriate? Aussie has chosen of his own free will to mock and slander the church, the Book of Mormon, the Prophet Joseph, and all the Latter day Prophets who preside over it. He has chosen to also mock any who remain faithful to its core beliefs referring to those folks in various and sundry insulting and uncomplimentary ways. On an LDS oriented form should he not be called to account for those attacks? Are attacks against the LDS church without any rebuttal now fair game on this forum? If so I am not interested in participating any longer just like I am not interested in going to the other dozens of anti-mormon forums set up to mock the church. Sincere questions and mockery are 2 different animals altogether. Aussie has turned to the latter in his comments here.

For all those so dissatisfied... you're welcome to make your own forum.

Domains are cheap from $10-15.
Server costs around $10-20 a month to start.
phpBB forums are free and easy to install.

I would bet Brian wouldn't even care if you advertise your forum on his forum.

BONUS: http://www.alliswellinzion.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is available! Hurry and snatch it up

I see that a member of the family has chimed in, and is leaving. Sigh.

AussiOi is a member of my broader family, and these questions and points come to mind --

It grieves me, too, Brother Jones.

I received a verbal battering about the Church after my husband & I returned from our Sunday, 7 1/2 hour trek encompassing drive-time & meetings. It was good of our older son to visit during the one weekend his father has every five weeks to be home from the oil field. I know how unhappy our son is in his life right now, but it is a bit of a challenge to have an expression of encouragement thrown back at you as though it were poison. Truth-be-told, it kind of dampened the time we had together while also having to put on a 'game face' in order to share in another son's happy phone call from Washington about their 2-day-old son born at home.

I can't imagine being a god; even a little god eternally hoping the best for children flailing around in a state of unbelief!

clarkkent14 wrote:For all those so dissatisfied... you're welcome to make your own forum.

Domains are cheap from $10-15.
Server costs around $10-20 a month to start.
phpBB forums are free and easy to install.

I would bet Brian wouldn't even care if you advertise your forum on his forum.

BONUS: http://www.alliswellinzion.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is available! Hurry and snatch it up

Simply asking that a fundamental rule of forum participation be observed here clark:

- Discussion of almost all topics is welcome, but promoting ideas and doctrine that are apostate and contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ will not be allowed.

keep the faith wrote:

e-eye wrote:
I didn't realize keep the faith was mark but I guess the Hula pie comments should have given it away. The forum hasn't been the same since mark shadow and heck I would even include col. in that group were banned. I have followed this forum for 5 years and there has been a significant change and not all of it has been by new members. I have seen many fall further from the standard doctrine and belief of the truth. Many have become enlightened. I have never been banned or warned but I must say things have become really lax in tolerance for some and I was blown away when mark and shadow were banned yet Aussie goes on and on. It's almost like many here are addicted to helping those who say they are asking questions or searching for truth as you get a pass for almost anything you write if you state that is your case. NEWS FLASH - this is an anti mormon thread - Aussie has been able to bring his Anti Mormon Website Searches home to LDSFF page after page. Really we are here defending the Book of Mormon page after page here? I hope nobody on this thread is warned for what they type because if Aussie is still here for bashing the Book of Mormon what could top that?

Amazing isn't it? Slander Joseph. Slander the Book of Mormon. Slander the entire restoration labeling it wrought with fraud and full of lies. The guys over at the exmo site are probably wetting themselves with glee. The tolerance level here for anti-mormon crap has reached absurdity levels. But don't hurt anyones feelings if they choose to openly trash everything Latter Day Saints hold sacred and true. Whats next? Public desecration of the endowment ceremony? This reminds me in a way of political correctness gone mad. I think Pres. Packer alluded to this recently in a conference address when he said:

"Tolerance is a virtue, but like all virtues, when exaggerated, it transforms itself into a vice. We need to be careful of the “tolerance trap” so that we are not swallowed up in it."

One anti attack after another on an LDS oriented web site? Not cool.

I agree with this.

Myself, I do not have a problem with all those who believe in the Book of Mormon discussing many venues, even fundamentalists because all Mormons have the commonality in the testimony of Joseph Smith. I think it is even ok to discuss anti-doctrines to those who are in question. However, when it turns from questions to bashing, i believe a line must be drawn.

Aussie, and a couple others with you on this, I hope you read this:

I do not believe you care about weighing all evidence. I believe you have made up your mind that Joseph was a fraud, and now you seek to get others to doubt. SO LET US WEIGH SOME EVIDENCE

Does the Book of Mormon have some parallels to a handful of books known in Joseph's day? Yes, but they are MINOR
Does the Book of Mormon have a few spots which seem like possible plagiarism? Yes, but they are MINOR
Does the Book of Mormon have MANY spots that were unknown in his day, but vindicated today? Yes, and that is MAJOR

Basically if you had lived in Joseph day, and you were able to notice a few parallels and potential plagiarisms you may think it was made up right? The problem is you along with other Anti's of the day realize the BULK the Book of Mormon cannot be found by any books in that time frame. SO, you figure in time maybe more possible source material will come up that Joseph could have had access to, or at minimum all the names, places, money, rituals, etc in the Book of Mormon must have made up by his imagination therefore they will never be vindicated.

As the years passed, no new source material started coming up. Ok, so you figure atleast nothing is being dug up somewhere vindicating Joseph's vivid imagination right?

UT OH, as the years pass more information starts to be found vindicating one thing after another in the Book of Mormon. These 'finds' were recent discoveries not known by anyone, let alone Joseph Smith.

So today, what does the 'proof' tell us.

1. Most of the Book of Mormon did not come from material Joseph had access to, yet a large portion of it NOT KNOWN IN THE 1820's-1830's etc has been vindicated today.

2. a minor portion of the Book of Mormon may have been borrowed from material Joseph had access to. This is the best the anti's can do. Considering the vast material vindicating the book as not being borrowed or made up, simple logic attests to bringing in the question why Joseph would need to 'borrow' anything from his time period when the other stuff must have been divinely given. Logic suggests there must be other alternative questions brought forward about how the minor part of the book seems 'borrowed' when most of it clearly wasn't.

The fact that most of the Book could not have been borrowed or made up, then the only logical explanation is that Joseph received the information from God as he said he did.

These are the facts in this case. You anti's have no teeth in your arguments.

p.s. as a final note, I bet you did not know that the characters Joseph copied for Martin harris to take to the professor actually themself were vindicated when much later almost identical 'word for word' characters were found guess where? SOUTH OF THE BORDER MY FRIENDS just where they should have been. One of hundreds of vindications....on and on

- Discussion of almost all topics is welcome, but promoting ideas and doctrine that are apostate and contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ will not be allowed.

Hmmm.... What could be considered apostate. Lets look at the pure doctrine of Christ.

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. (2 Nephi, Chapter 32)

This scriptures says that this is the pure doctrine of Christ. It teaches us that He should manifest himself unto us "in the flesh." Have we transfigured this doctrine, or gone apostate from it?

viewtopic.php?f=14&p=420727#p420727" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

superdan wrote:The fact that this doctrine is not plainly taught to everyone including small children is evidence that we have transfigured the holy word of God. (Mormon 8:33) We teach that we must follow the steps of baptism and confirmation at age 8, followed by priesthood for men, and temple ordinances and enduring to the end of our lives in order to be judged and finally ascend to the celestial kingdom AFTER WE DIE. This is similar to other traditional Christian denominations. We simply have a longer checklist and then either we get to the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom (heaven) or it will be essentially 2nd best (hell) for us.

I think far too often we ascribe a single meaning to the word apostasy, but unless we each have a direct connection with heaven, we all are in a state of apostasy.

jo1954, I very much disagree that we can only receive milk in the Church. You constantly maintain that you are above the Church leaders in knowledge and enlightenment, that you are closer to Christ than they are. You seem to imply that you have ascended higher in the celestial realms than us ordinary Church members. In fact, your message seems to be that you don't even need the Church at all; that it's a useful tool for us lesser faithful souls. I don't worship the Church. I worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. I see membership in the Lord's true Church as necessary, not just a useful tool that can be discarded once it's usefulness is of no further value to you. The temple blessings are necessary, not just as nice symbols but as actual ordinances that will be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise when we are worthy. I do not believe that they can be skipped once you have gained further light and knowledge. They are eternal principles and promises. The Lord has always made covenants with his people. We are no different. They are acknowledged promises between God and us. If we keep our covenants, He will keep His promises to us.