LDS Freedom Forum

Chicagoelder wrote:The Church removed the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants in the 1921 edition with an explanation that the Lectures "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons". This is in contrast to the remaining pages of the original Doctrine and Covenants which are officially recognized as divine revelation given specifically to the church.

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following concerning their removal:

a) They were not received as revelations by the prophet Joseph Smith.

b) They are instructions relative to the general subject of faith. They are explanations of this principle but not doctrine.

c) They are not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. More complete instructions on the point of doctrine are given in section 130 of the 1876 and all subsequent editions of the Doctrine and Covenants.

d) It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up the Doctrine and Covenants. [6]

Even hostile readers in 1838 understood that there was a distinct difference between the Lectures and the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants:

The first part [of the D&C] contains seven lectures on Faith, but the second is of most importance, containing what are termed, “Covenants and Commandments of the Lord, to his servants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints.” This part includes one hundred and two sections, ninety-seven of which are occupied by as many professed revelations.

Current Use of the Lectures

Bruce R. McConkie wrote regarding the lectures, "They were not themselves classed as revelations, but in them is to be found some of the best lesson material ever prepared on the Godhead; on the character, perfections, and attributes of God; on faith, miracles, and sacrifice. They can be studied with great profit by all gospel scholars." The 1990 republication of the lectures signals the desire of some LDS scholars to stimulate interest in their historical and doctrinal significance for the Church.

The Lectures on Faith are available through Church-owned Deseret Book in hardcover, softcover, illustrated and audio formats. They are also available in English and Spanish. (See: Deseret Book: Lectures on Faith). If there is an effort by the Church to hide or suppress them in any way, then they are not hiding them very well!

clarkkent14 wrote:If you cannot see the conundrums I have presented then you are so hard hearted and blinded that you will not look and live.

Chicagoelder wrote:The Church removed the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants in the 1921 edition with an explanation that the Lectures "were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons". This is in contrast to the remaining pages of the original Doctrine and Covenants which are officially recognized as divine revelation given specifically to the church.

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following concerning their removal:

a) They were not received as revelations by the prophet Joseph Smith.

b) They are instructions relative to the general subject of faith. They are explanations of this principle but not doctrine.

c) They are not complete as to their teachings regarding the Godhead. More complete instructions on the point of doctrine are given in section 130 of the 1876 and all subsequent editions of the Doctrine and Covenants.

d) It was thought by Elder James E. Talmage, chairman, and other members of the committee who were responsible for their omission that to avoid confusion and contention on this vital point of belief, it would be better not to have them bound in the same volume as the commandments or revelations which make up the Doctrine and Covenants. [6]

Even hostile readers in 1838 understood that there was a distinct difference between the Lectures and the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants:

The first part [of the D&C] contains seven lectures on Faith, but the second is of most importance, containing what are termed, “Covenants and Commandments of the Lord, to his servants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints.” This part includes one hundred and two sections, ninety-seven of which are occupied by as many professed revelations.

Current Use of the Lectures

Bruce R. McConkie wrote regarding the lectures, "They were not themselves classed as revelations, but in them is to be found some of the best lesson material ever prepared on the Godhead; on the character, perfections, and attributes of God; on faith, miracles, and sacrifice. They can be studied with great profit by all gospel scholars." The 1990 republication of the lectures signals the desire of some LDS scholars to stimulate interest in their historical and doctrinal significance for the Church.

The Lectures on Faith are available through Church-owned Deseret Book in hardcover, softcover, illustrated and audio formats. They are also available in English and Spanish. (See: Deseret Book: Lectures on Faith). If there is an effort by the Church to hide or suppress them in any way, then they are not hiding them very well!

Here is why your reasoning is bunk: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30744" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you have two options. Joseph was right or the committee of 1921 was right. Take your pick.

Chicagoelder wrote:There are truths in the Lectures on Faith. In 1921 when the decision was made to remove them I'm sure it was done as guided by the Spirit. I'm not going to stress over these things. I have the Lectures on Faith here at home. You can call me hard hearted and blind all you want because I don't agree with your view...but in the real scheme of things I'm looking and living quite well!

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Frederick wrote:

Chicagoelder wrote:There are truths in the Lectures on Faith. In 1921 when the decision was made to remove them I'm sure it was done as guided by the Spirit. I'm not going to stress over these things. I have the Lectures on Faith here at home. You can call me hard hearted and blind all you want because I don't agree with your view...but in the real scheme of things I'm looking and living quite well!

Actually, I think clark brings up a great point. Either you agree with Joseph, or the committee in 1921. Have you read this thread too?
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seriously, if you find points there you disagree with, please offer a well thought out comment.

It's more than just owning a copy. Do you read the Lectures as scripture? Do you read it as doctrine? Or, do you think Joseph must not have known what he was talking about.

Have you read all of D&C 130? Do you understand what is actually taught in that section? Take a look at these verses.

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Do you understand how serious and profound the mysteries that are being taught here? Is he talking about kingdoms higher than the celestial kingdom? Do you think you can understand these verses without receiving personal revelation or by being taught from true messengers sent from the Father?

Original_Intent wrote:

Frederick wrote:

Chicagoelder wrote:There are truths in the Lectures on Faith. In 1921 when the decision was made to remove them I'm sure it was done as guided by the Spirit. I'm not going to stress over these things. I have the Lectures on Faith here at home. You can call me hard hearted and blind all you want because I don't agree with your view...but in the real scheme of things I'm looking and living quite well!

Actually, I think clark brings up a great point. Either you agree with Joseph, or the committee in 1921. Have you read this thread too?
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seriously, if you find points there you disagree with, please offer a well thought out comment.

It's more than just owning a copy. Do you read the Lectures as scripture? Do you read it as doctrine? Or, do you think Joseph must not have known what he was talking about.

Have you read all of D&C 130? Do you understand what is actually taught in that section? Take a look at these verses.

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Do you understand how serious and profound the mysteries that are being taught here? Is he talking about kingdoms higher than the celestial kingdom? Do you think you can understand these verses without receiving personal revelation or by being taught from true messengers sent from the Father?

Indeed, some great things included in this post, however, I agree with others who feel that the OP does not shed light. Some good discussion came from it, such as your post, but I did not feel uplifted by it or by others like it that go out of their way to be snide, demeaning, or ridiculing of the church or the leadership.

clarkkent14 wrote: Why are our minds darkened? Why a veil of darkness?

Frederick wrote:

Chicagoelder wrote:There are truths in the Lectures on Faith. In 1921 when the decision was made to remove them I'm sure it was done as guided by the Spirit. I'm not going to stress over these things. I have the Lectures on Faith here at home. You can call me hard hearted and blind all you want because I don't agree with your view...but in the real scheme of things I'm looking and living quite well!

Actually, I think clark brings up a great point. Either you agree with Joseph, or the committee in 1921. Have you read this thread too?
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seriously, if you find points there you disagree with, please offer a well thought out comment.

It's more than just owning a copy. Do you read the Lectures as scripture? Do you read it as doctrine? Or, do you think Joseph must not have known what he was talking about.

Have you read all of D&C 130? Do you understand what is actually taught in that section? Take a look at these verses.

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Do you understand how serious and profound the mysteries that are being taught here? Is he talking about kingdoms higher than the celestial kingdom? Do you think you can understand these verses without receiving personal revelation or by being taught from true messengers sent from the Father?

Chicagoelder wrote:The Father and the Son may appear personally to men; Angels reside in a celestial sphere; The celestial earth will be a great Urim and Thummim; A white stone is given to all who enter the celestial world; The time of the Second Coming is withheld from the Prophet; Intelligence gained in this life rises with us in the Resurrection; All blessings come by obedience to law; The Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones.

What else have I missed?

InfoWarrior82 wrote:

Songbird wrote: Okay, I have been to the website. I have searched for it. Just where is this story?????? Post a link please.

It's a joke. And a bad one at that.

Songbird wrote:Really, clarkkent what is your motivation here?

Faith is preceeded first by desire (Alma 32:27) (1 Nephi 11:11) (Abraham 1:2) (JSH 1:15), followed by belief, followed then by faith. How can we obtain faith if we are dwindling in unbelief? Why are our minds darkened? Why a veil of darkness?

We must follow the path as those who have gone before, desire, believe, obtain faith, rend the veil of darkness, obtain konwledge (Ether 4:13-16) (Ether 12:18-21) Is there any doubt that we are having the rest of the Book of Mormon withheld because we don’t believe the things we already have and we are condemned? (3 Nephi 26:10) (D&C 84:57)

Chicagoelder wrote:The Father and the Son may appear personally to men; Angels reside in a celestial sphere; The celestial earth will be a great Urim and Thummim; A white stone is given to all who enter the celestial world; The time of the Second Coming is withheld from the Prophet; Intelligence gained in this life rises with us in the Resurrection; All blessings come by obedience to law; The Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones.

What else have I missed?

embryopocket wrote:

clarkkent14 wrote:

embryopocket wrote:I hate these threads.

Why?

I don't believe that they uplift and inspire. I don't like how they make me feel. The sentiments expressed by those that hold critical views of the LDS Church and question its leadership go against everything that the record of Heaven within me has brought to my remembrance. Yes, I believe that men make mistakes, Christ is the only perfect Man to have lived here. No, I am not closed-minded. I receive the truth from wherever it comes from...I have wrestled with the Lord in mighty prayer these past couple of months and He has revealed the truth of these things to me. These posts that are critical against the Church have one purpose: to divide, and not in a good way. I am not accusing you or anyone else of intentionally doing this, but this is what is ocurring.

jo1952 wrote:

Frederick wrote:

Chicagoelder wrote:There are truths in the Lectures on Faith. In 1921 when the decision was made to remove them I'm sure it was done as guided by the Spirit. I'm not going to stress over these things. I have the Lectures on Faith here at home. You can call me hard hearted and blind all you want because I don't agree with your view...but in the real scheme of things I'm looking and living quite well!

Actually, I think clark brings up a great point. Either you agree with Joseph, or the committee in 1921. Have you read this thread too?
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seriously, if you find points there you disagree with, please offer a well thought out comment.

It's more than just owning a copy. Do you read the Lectures as scripture? Do you read it as doctrine? Or, do you think Joseph must not have known what he was talking about.

Have you read all of D&C 130? Do you understand what is actually taught in that section? Take a look at these verses.

9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Do you understand how serious and profound the mysteries that are being taught here? Is he talking about kingdoms higher than the celestial kingdom? Do you think you can understand these verses without receiving personal revelation or by being taught from true messengers sent from the Father?

It boggles my mind. We have had removed from canonized scriptures what was previously taught as doctrine, which Joseph himself was instrumental in preparing and/or approving. It has been removed from canon and is no longer being taught. So what if some claim you can still access it (and many won't because they don't even know about it)? The point is that it is the Church who is telling us that through her we can be saved. Even if there is only "some" truth in the lectures (but I am finding more than just some), it is a source which the Church has removed from her teaching curriculum. This takes away things for us to believe in; it is a manner whereby unbelief is being supported and added to by our own leaders. Meanwhile Joseph taught us that we can't be saved in ignorance. With the LoF, in addition to whatever truths Joseph had revealed to him which he could not share because the collective Church wasn't ready...who knows how much more truth we are ignorant to?!!! Incredibly, when the Holy Spirit DOES reveal additional truth to an individual we are called to task if we share it; by virtue that anything NEW being revealed to the individual will automatically be beyond what has been correlated!!! How much longer will it be before the damn breaks? Awake, awake!!!

Chicagoelder wrote:Yes I have faith, Yes I see miracles, Yes I am receiving more, Yes Angels do minister to me and other family members! \M/

natasha wrote: I have NEVER been taught that it is "through the Church we can be saved"...and I doubt anyone else has been either. To the contrary...the Church's stewardship is to teach and spread the Gospel it has been entrusted with. It also edeavors to be an additional tool by which we can serve each other and mankind.

ajax wrote:

natasha wrote: I have NEVER been taught that it is "through the Church we can be saved"...and I doubt anyone else has been either. To the contrary...the Church's stewardship is to teach and spread the Gospel it has been entrusted with. It also edeavors to be an additional tool by which we can serve each other and mankind.

Then why do we spend so much time on "rescuing" the "inactives". A person in need of "rescue" is in a bad situation. Certainly by not being at church, the rescue call goes out, they are in deep, they must be less saved.

Maybe when we do our visits among the "inactive" (inactive in what may I ask) I suggest we cut to the chase and just say, "Hi, I'm so and so, I am here to rescue you. Once you start showing up to church regularly, you will be taken of the "resuce" list."

clarkkent14 wrote:From Church News

After serious consideration, and several polls conducted by the church's correlation committee, it is hereby announced that two sections of the Book of Mormon are to be removed. They will be 2 Nephi chapters 31 and 32. 3 Nephi 11 was heavily considered, but the polls barely swayed the vote at 53% deciding to keep the chapter in tact. The reasons given for the removal are as follows:

1. It is clear that Nephi states that he has stopped prophesying in (2 Nephi 31:1). Prophecy and revelation is more important than anything in the church, and hearkening to anything less might lead one astray. It's important that we follow the current brethren.

2. Nephi plainly states that he is about to teach Doctrine in (2 Nephi 31:2). Nephi is a dead prophet, and we have prophets now that have a fresh view about changing trends and new doctrine. Doctrine from 2,500 years ago does not adequately suffice in our day and age. Doctrine is not as important as the revelations or prophecies.

3. Nephi speaks of a baptism of fire. This is asking a bit much, and as you know water is sufficient to enter the kingdom of heaven.

4. Nephi clearly doesn't understand the order of God. He alludes to the fact that enduring to the end might have to do with a personal visit from Christ. It is clear from church manuals that enduring to the end is until death.

5. Perhaps Laman and Lemuel were right about Nephi because he seems to think that any lay member can converse with Angels. We know that such visitations are reserved for those in authority. We'll let you know when that happens, until then don't be led astray.

Should we transfigure the Doctrine of Christ? Have we done so? Are we not saying we have the revelations, we need no more doctrine? Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!" Oh wait maybe we have: The Transfigured Doctrine of Christ - 2 Nephi 31-32 Mormon 8 I lamented last year how we have reduced this great Doctrine to a few things. 2 Nephi 31-32 Thread.

“Some have claimed that the removal of the Lectures from the Doctrine and Covenants constitutes decanonization of material once affirmed by the Church as scripture. Those who take this view see the 1834 vote of the priesthood quorums and the general assembly to accept as true and to publish both the Lectures on Faith and the revelations of Joseph Smith in the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, as putting the Lectures on a par with the revelations, considering both to be canonized scripture (Van Wagoner, et al 72-77). Leaders of the Church, however, have consistently maintained that from the beginning a distinction was made between the Lectures on Faith and the revelations.”

”It can be reasoned then that a distinction was made early between the seven lectures and the revelations, and that the vote to accept the lectures as "judiciously arranged . . . and profitable for doctrine" was not to equate them with the divine revelations. Such is the message in the "Explanatory Introduction" of the 1921 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants:”

I find it interesting that these Lectures on Faith were prepared just two years after the church had been condemned for unbelief. “And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received— Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.”

Faith is preceeded first by desire (Alma 32:27) (1 Nephi 11:11) (Abraham 1:2) (JSH 1:15), followed by belief, followed then by faith. How can we obtain faith if we are dwindling in unbelief? Why are our minds darkened? Why a veil of darkness?

We must follow the path as those who have gone before, desire, believe, obtain faith, rend the veil of darkness, obtain konwledge (Ether 4:13-16) (Ether 12:18-21) Is there any doubt that we are having the rest of the Book of Mormon withheld because we don’t believe the things we already have and we are condemned? (3 Nephi 26:10) (D&C 84:57)