Snuffer & PTHG

[keep the faith]

"When the Brother of Jared saw the Lord, he had faith no longer, he had knowledge. It is this knowledge that will save you."

Frederick can I share a thought or two here? I think you are misunderstanding here what faith really is by making this statement. Go to Lecture 1 where Joseph said that Faith was the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things. He went on to say without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence. He then said that faith was the basis of ALL action and power in the universe.

One stumbling block many people apparently need to overcome in understanding the principle of faith is the mistaken idea that once a person obtains perfect knowledge of a doctrine of God, then their faith disappears. When the Brother of Jared saw the Lord he did not have his faith disappear. Far from it. His faith actually increased exponentially. Once we obtain a sure knowledge of truth that does not remove our need for faith.

Consider this. God knows all things or all the laws of the universe. How did God create the worlds? By the power of His faith! Sure knowledge does not take the place of faith. If so God would have no need for faith. The process of faith is a circle: we obtain knowledge of God in order to develop faith. Then our spiritual knowledge grows and our faith develops the power to make our righteous hopes and desires real. We can produce miracles, use gifts of the spirit, and see Gods face and live. Joseph said that miracles were the fruits of the power of faith.

You claim in your post here that you know God. What are the fruits of that knowledge that you claim to possess? Do you have Christs image engraven in your countenance? Have you developed a perfect love for all men through that knowledge? You speak somewhat condescendingly and with an aire of superiority in your responses to Infowarrior and brlenox. You challenge their understanding of the Lord and his mercies extended to all his children if they are not are your level of understanding as you perceive. So I ask you: What are your fruits here Brother?

[Chicagoelder]

Following the discussions on this board on Snuffer reminds me of gnosticism.

I've not read any of his books nor do I intend to. Like most critics, his is a twisted interpretation of scripture and history. I have read a number of things on his website and would not waste my time on his books. Indeed, Joseph was and is the Prophet of the restoration; however, President Monson is his legal successor and does indeed hold all keys necessary to administer the ordinances of salvation and build the kingdom of God on earth.

For those wanting a review of PTHG by someone who has read the book:

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... ne-of-two/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The above review does a thorough job of going through the book and demonstrating the fallacies inherent in Snuffer's theories.

I've not posted before on Snuffer but have been disappointed in this board, the attention he has garnered, and the constant carping on the Church and the Lord's anointed.

Excellent review! It does amaze me though that there are some who think this Church will fail. In the immortal words of President Heber J. Grant:

"Any Latter-day Saint that thinks for one minute that this Church is going to fail is not a really converted Latter-day Saint. There will be no failure in this Church. It has been established for the last time, never to be given to another people and never to be thrown down."

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-he ... 3?lang=eng

[Franktalk]

Excellent review! It does amaze me though that there are some who think this Church will fail. In the immortal words of President Heber J. Grant:

"Any Latter-day Saint that thinks for one minute that this Church is going to fail is not a really converted Latter-day Saint. There will be no failure in this Church. It has been established for the last time, never to be given to another people and never to be thrown down."

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-he ... 3?lang=eng

I absolutely agree. The church had already fallen before he became president. In fact the fall started before Joseph died just like the church established by the Jesus in 32 AD. The church can not fall from failure, it can only rise from failure.

[keep the faith]

Following the discussions on this board on Snuffer reminds me of gnosticism.

I've not read any of his books nor do I intend to. Like most critics, his is a twisted interpretation of scripture and history. I have read a number of things on his website and would not waste my time on his books. Indeed, Joseph was and is the Prophet of the restoration; however, President Monson is his legal successor and does indeed hold all keys necessary to administer the ordinances of salvation and build the kingdom of God on earth.

For those wanting a review of PTHG by someone who has read the book:

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... ne-of-two/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The above review does a thorough job of going through the book and demonstrating the fallacies inherent in Snuffer's theories.

I've not posted before on Snuffer but have been disappointed in this board, the attention he has garnered, and the constant carping on the Church and the Lord's anointed.

Excellent review! It does amaze me though that there are some who think this Church will fail. In the immortal words of President Heber J. Grant:

"Any Latter-day Saint that thinks for one minute that this Church is going to fail is not a really converted Latter-day Saint. There will be no failure in this Church. It has been established for the last time, never to be given to another people and never to be thrown down."

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-he ... 3?lang=eng

Thanks Brother. I will add the pure testimony of Pres. Ezra Taft Benson to this sure witness of Pres. Grant. This talk was a lifeline to me and helped keep me from falling for deceptive forces at the time trying to lead me away from the safety of the church. I love Pres. Benson for his valiant spirit and testimony. He gave this talk in conference just prior to his death. Here is the final several paragraphs of it. Simply titled I Testify.


" I testify that there has been, and there is now, and there will be legal successors to the Prophet Joseph Smith who hold the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, even the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (See D&C 21:1–7; D&C 107:91–92; D&C 112:15.) He receives revelation from God to direct His kingdom. Associated with him are others who are prophets, seers, and revelators, even those who make up the presiding quorums of the Church, namely the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. (See D&C 112:30.)[/u]

I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. (See D&C 1:14–16; D&C 84:49–53.) It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (See Ether 8:18–25.)

I testify that the church and kingdom of God is increasing in strength. Its numbers are growing, as is the faithfulness of its faithful members. It has never been better organized or equipped to perform its divine mission.

I testify that as the forces of evil increase under Lucifer’s leadership and as the forces of good increase under the leadership of Jesus Christ, there will be growing battles between the two until the final confrontation. As the issues become clearer and more obvious, all mankind will eventually be required to align themselves either for the kingdom of God or for the kingdom of the devil. As these conflicts rage, either secretly or openly, the righteous will be tested. God’s wrath will soon shake the nations of the earth and will be poured out on the wicked without measure. (See JS—H 1:45; D&C 1:9.) But God will provide strength for the righteous and the means of escape; and eventually and finally truth will triumph. (See 1 Ne. 22:15–23.)

I testify that it is time for every man to set in order his own house both temporally and spiritually. It is time for the unbeliever to learn for himself that this work is true, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom which Daniel prophesied God would set up in the latter days, never to be destroyed, a stone that would eventually fill the whole earth and stand forever. (See Dan. 2:34–45; D&C 65:2.) It is time for us, as members of the Church, to walk in all the ways of the Lord, to use our influence to make popular that which is sound and to make unpopular that which is unsound. We have the scriptures, the prophets, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now we need eyes that will see, ears that will hear, and hearts that will hearken to God’s direction.

I testify that not many years hence the earth will be cleansed. (See D&C 76:41.) Jesus the Christ will come again, this time in power and great glory to vanquish His foes and to rule and reign on the earth. (See D&C 43:26–33.) In due time all men will gain a resurrection and then will face the Master in a final judgment. (See 2 Ne. 9:15, 41.) God will give rewards to each according to the deeds done in the flesh. (See Alma 5:15.)

I testify to you that a fulness of joy can only come through the atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel, which are found only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (See A of F 1:3.)

To all these things I humbly testify and bear my solemn witness that they are true, and I do so in the name of Him who is the head of this church, even Jesus Christ, amen."

[Franktalk]

I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. (See D&C 1:14–16; D&C 84:49–53.) It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world. (See Ether 8:18–25.)

And of course you will love each and every one of them. That was a commandment from the mouth of Jesus. Now measure your feelings against the commandment from Jesus. I am sure the love overflows. There will always be enemies, love them anyway. The more enemies the greater the trial. Praise God. Bring glory to God by loving your enemies. Show God that your heart is pure and no temporal thing will interfere with the greatest commandment.

[Franktalk]

I testify that not many years hence the earth will be cleansed. (See D&C 76:41.) Jesus the Christ will come again, this time in power and great glory to vanquish His foes and to rule and reign on the earth. (See D&C 43:26–33.) In due time all men will gain a resurrection and then will face the Master in a final judgment. (See 2 Ne. 9:15, 41.) God will give rewards to each according to the deeds done in the flesh. (See Alma 5:15.)

And all of those who have not met Him face to face will melt away.

[brlenox]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

Frederick not that it will matter - I thanked because it is obvious that infowarrior is asking a question that is beyond the words you are reading. He is taking advantage of the limited myopic perspective that actually blinds many to even making the effort of sensing his question. He is hearing you fine and yet it is clear that you are not hearing him.

I'm not saying that it means the same to me as it does for infowarrior however, I find this thank worthy as it is perceptive and cleverly illustrated that manifests the fundamental issue that enables many on this forum to not see the nature of Denver's writings and which blocks others from even being able to comprehend the duplicity of his carefully contrived message. Because Denver never comes right out and says the Brethren are leading us astray some never match his message of they are not authorized as was Joseph to the message of they are not authorized representatives of God which would mean they are leading us astray.

Even more fascinating is that you so readily make the same judgments and leaps in assumptions that others in the opposite camp are criticized for myself included. We are all so very similar it is rather humorous.

Frederick, you and others here are an enigma to me. I genuinely am convinced that you have had experiences. I know you believe what you state. I'm sure that you have been moved in powerful ways, however, there seems a taint in the message. I only find commonality when I compare the elite on this site to individuals in the history of the church such as William Godbe, Lorrin Wooley, Harmston, Musser and others of like persuasion. It troubles me that I have to discount the great experiences that some of you claim as from a different source, or at least having strayed from the source of the experiences I have had.

This is important to me. I must eventually be confident in making the determination of what is of God and what is not. For all of those on the path into his presence will come up against deceptions of such complexity that only the pure in heart and those who have fully given their will to the Lord and are filled with his love will pass the sentinels that guard the way into his presence. I believe my time here has been part of that education. It is why I remain and continue to analyze each of those who make the claims to sense the spirit of the matter. ( and of course when you work for the strengthening members committee one has to give a fair day's labor for a fair days wage... :ymsmug: )

The same for Denver. I'm sure that some of his material and thoughts are in the semblance of wonderful truths but I cannot deny that he has fulfilled the role of an apostate. My timing for signing up on this forum seems have been precisely to observe the process of the significance of going astray and the subtleties involved. I sensed it coming and when it took place it was only a confirmation of the nature of the spirit that some of us were willing to see in the man. I'm trying to cut you folks a break and am sympathetic but there is something wrong here and infowarriors efforts only highlight what I think the issue is...someone is not listening and may be beyond hearing at all.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

Sooo.. you won't answer the question?

What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

It's actually not that difficult of a question. Pretty straightforward even.

You and so many others here don't believe those who DO testify of what they KNOW of God when they speak out. There are many here who speak with experience. Would you believe ME if I told you I am taught by ministering angels and have met a member of the Godhead? Of course you wouldn't - as I said, you don't believe others who tell you that. So why would I waste my time? Why would Frederick? (Maybe HE will... but I will save my personal experiences for now.)

[Franktalk]

Frederick not that it will matter -

Are you sure you are not a seer?

[AussieOi]

Weird. My experience has been different. I've been told that I must build my own testimony of God.

What more about the nature of God do we need to know than has already been said?

It is like I said it is not about God it is to know God. We must move past what we can learn to what we can experience. It seems that you may not know there is a difference.

You are splitting hairs. The church isn't holding anyone back. I'm sorry if you feel like you're being held back. As for me, I'm progressing just nicely.

I'll ask again, what more do we need to know about the nature of God that we don't already know?

I'm sorry, that ranks as one of the dumbest, stupidist comments I have heard in my entire life

Beyond comprehensive. Breathtaking ignorance and arrogance.

May I sit at your feet and bask in your omnipresent wisdom, swami master?

[Chicagoelder]

Ah the great Aussie graces us with his Christlike attitude once again....... ^:)^

[A Random Phrase]

How did God react every time he saw Eve in the garden stark naked? Oh, that's right, He created her in the nude. And she probably left here in the nude. I think there is a difference in nudity and pornography. The latter is designed to cause sexual arousal. Somehow I don't think Eve was a cause of this for Deity. I cannot answer for the TSA, however.

:))

Good points, ff.

[keep the faith]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

Frederick not that it will matter - I thanked because it is obvious that infowarrior is asking a question that is beyond the words you are reading. He is taking advantage of the limited myopic perspective that actually blinds many to even making the effort of sensing his question. He is hearing you fine and yet it is clear that you are not hearing him.

I'm not saying that it means the same to me as it does for infowarrior however, I find this thank worthy as it is perceptive and cleverly illustrated that manifests the fundamental issue that enables many on this forum to not see the nature of Denver's writings and which blocks others from even being able to comprehend the duplicity of his carefully contrived message. Because Denver never comes right out and says the Brethren are leading us astray some never match his message of they are not authorized as was Joseph to the message of they are not authorized representatives of God which would mean they are leading us astray.

Even more fascinating is that you so readily make the same judgments and leaps in assumptions that others in the opposite camp are criticized for myself included. We are all so very similar it is rather humorous.

Frederick, you and others here are an enigma to me. I genuinely am convinced that you have had experiences. I know you believe what you state. I'm sure that you have been moved in powerful ways, however, there seems a taint in the message. I only find commonality when I compare the elite on this site to individuals in the history of the church such as William Godbe, Lorrin Wooley, Harmston, Musser and others of like persuasion. It troubles me that I have to discount the great experiences that some of you claim as from a different source, or at least having strayed from the source of the experiences I have had.

This is important to me. I must eventually be confident in making the determination of what is of God and what is not. For all of those on the path into his presence will come up against deceptions of such complexity that only the pure in heart and those who have fully given their will to the Lord and are filled with his love will pass the sentinels that guard the way into his presence. I believe my time here has been part of that education. It is why I remain and continue to analyze each of those who make the claims to sense the spirit of the matter. ( and of course when you work for the strengthening members committee one has to give a fair day's labor for a fair days wage... :ymsmug: )

The same for Denver. I'm sure that some of his material and thoughts are in the semblance of wonderful truths but I cannot deny that he has fulfilled the role of an apostate. My timing for signing up on this forum seems have been precisely to observe the process of the significance of going astray and the subtleties involved. I sensed it coming and when it took place it was only a confirmation of the nature of the spirit that some of us were willing to see in the man. I'm trying to cut you folks a break and am sympathetic but there is something wrong here and infowarriors efforts only highlight what I think the issue is...someone is not listening and may be beyond hearing at all.

One of the things The Lord mercifully blessed me with when I was confronted in the past by individuals who tried to convince me that the church had gone astray was a spirit of discernment. It was a tender mercy given me to help my family. I was able to discern a taint in Harmstons message and it helped me to not fall for his con. I can tell instantly when someone is following the right spirit in their pursuit of and the obtaining of greater light and knowledge and spiritual power from on high. Their hearts are filled with charity and they desire to emulate their Savior in all their dealing with their fellow men. They would not offend the spirit by speaking critically or accusatorially of the restored church or its Prophet leaders. They serve and love and sustain and support and build. No faultfinding. No evil speaking of he Lords anointed. Their hearts are purged of a negative or condescending spirit. They desire only charity. I didn't see that happening in Harmstons case and sadly I don't see that in Snuffer either the more I read his words. He and many who stand with him have become accusers of the Brethren. This was so plainly shown in his latest blog he put out and that does not come from the Spirit of Charity. Sorry. Just aint buying it.

[Thomas]

KTF, have you ever heard the story of the emperor's new clothes? That is what happens when no one can speak critically of a leader. Truth is never evil.

[AussieOi]

Ok. I apologize and tone down my public opinion of infowarriro83 for being a known unknowns kind of guy


Of course, let me put it on the record.

It still remains one of the most intellectually embarrassing things that I have read.

As in, _I_ am embarrassed someone might look over my shoulder and think my own search for heavenly wisdom occurs on a forum where its members openly admit something like that.

I'm talking My shame,

[AussieOi]

Ah the great Aussie graces us with his Christlike attitude once again....... ^:)^

Yeah, well you get that from me.

I was dropped as a baby so that part of my hypothalamus is missing.

You know, the "says the blindingly obvious" neuter button.

Some here were just dropped, and haven't recovered.

The tragedy is, they've found web forums to share their messed up interpretation of god man and scripture.

These are the parents of this kids whining about their messed up childhood, over on anti LDS forums

[brlenox]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

Sooo.. you won't answer the question?

What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

It's actually not that difficult of a question. Pretty straightforward even.

You and so many others here don't believe those who DO testify of what they KNOW of God when they speak out. There are many here who speak with experience. Would you believe ME if I told you I am taught by ministering angels and have met a member of the Godhead? Of course you wouldn't - as I said, you don't believe others who tell you that. So why would I waste my time? Why would Frederick? (Maybe HE will... but I will save my personal experiences for now.)

Jules, what you describe here is not the case for me. I have read your testimonies and others. They are pretty easy to find. I genuinely am interested and accept that you and others have had great experiences. I believe that I have made that clear over the months. I have searched and sought for insight and instruction concerning the dilemma that some of you provide for certain elements of profound rightness in some of your observations. However, there are certain clear cut behaviors that are well defined, clearly spelled out, and beyond contestation as the words and counsel of the prophets from Joseph Smith to the Latter-day prophets. I have to ignore them to believe those of you, of these experiences, are a suitable pattern of exemplary behavior that should be emulated. There is a taint that I cannot step over.

In its way Joseph describes the principle when he speaks of how to determine a good spirit from an evil one. Reaching out the hand seeking confirmation of the nature of the spirit seems simple enough. However, he is sure that every single time a disembodied spirit will seek to deceive you by reaching out as if to take your hand. In other words, so strong is the compulsion to deceive that they cannot overcome the compulsion of their natures, they will deceive every time.

This principle is used to describe certain other behaviors. One such is that those who have been deceived will speak out against the brethren of the church, the apostles and the prophets and I am convinced that it is so much a part of those who are on, not necessarily committed to or fully ripe, but on the road to apostasy that they cannot help themselves. They are bound to criticize and undermine because they cannot fully conceal this nature in their beings. Those on this path have no choice but to act in this manner. So in spite of the wonderful and sometimes insightful observations that some may make they are revealed by a behavior that will always be so dependable a hallmark that they cannot avoid the behavior.

IT does not undermine that you may have had the great experiences that several of you have, in my mind, been a bit to cavalier in revealing. It is clear that people do not understand the role of the testimony of the dispensational head, Joseph Smith. Still while it does not undermine the reality of the experiences it does undermine the nature of the spirit that has sought and gained a foothold in varying degrees upon the hearts of those who have had these experiences. The only way to discount what Joseph and other GA's have sought to warn concerning is to dismiss them and their words and their testimonies. People may say words to the contrary but the actions speak in sufficient tones that those true to the Lord and his kingdom will perceive them.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Jules, what you describe here is not the case for me. I have read your testimonies and others. They are pretty easy to find. I genuinely am interested and accept that you and others have had great experiences. I believe that I have made that clear over the months. I have searched and sought for insight and instruction concerning the dilemma that some of you provide for certain elements of profound rightness in some of your observations. However, there are certain clear cut behaviors that are well defined, clearly spelled out, and beyond contestation as the words and counsel of the prophets from Joseph Smith to the Latter-day prophets. I have to ignore them to believe those of you, of these experiences, are a suitable pattern of exemplary behavior that should be emulated. There is a taint that I cannot step over.

Do you think that having these experiences means a person must be "perfect"?? Who ever said that it did? Even Cain walked and talked with God....! I have LOTS to overcome. Denver Snuffer claims he does too. I believe him - I've heard him swearing.... =)) . OUR idea of what qualifies us for these experiences is certainly not the same as God's idea. We must quit judging and cast off that disbelief that hinders us.....

[Frederick]

You claim in your post here that you know God. What are the fruits of that knowledge that you claim to possess? Do you have Christs image engraven in your countenance? Have you developed a perfect love for all men through that knowledge? You speak somewhat condescendingly and with an aire of superiority in your responses to Infowarrior and brlenox. You challenge their understanding of the Lord and his mercies extended to all his children if they are not are your level of understanding as you perceive. So I ask you: What are your fruits here Brother?

Sadly, I don't think you've ever read hardly anything that I've written. Time and again I've tried to engage you by asking questions and referring to scriptures. Instead you talk right past me and often attempt to put words into my mouth. It truly seems you are past understanding or feeling. I have never once seen you try to do anything other than defend the brethren by labeling certain people and their views as apostate. In this attempt you repeatedly refer to some guy named Harmston, trying to use guilt by association. I have openly and plainly shared my testimony so that others may know that they too can see God and angels and witness all of the miracles written in our scriptures today. As I have explained so often, it seems that there are extremely few people who have received these things.

When one has received the knowledge of God, it is easy to discern who has received this same knowledge. You speak as the Pharisees. Your words and attitude are reminiscent of how the Pharisees spoke to Christ. Your efforts would be far better spent by sharing the knowledge that you've received, if you have received knowledge. And when I say this, I am speaking of it as it is described in the scriptures. What did Alma mean when he said that others had come to see as he did see, and "know" as he did know?

2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

Yes, I am being bold. If you truly cared about people who you think are going astray, show them love. Share your testimony and the knowledge you've received directly from God.

If you have not yet had angels appear or minister to you, if you have not yet had revelations, visions and dreams, like the prophets in the scriptures, then you do not yet have faith. I testify of this plainly and boldly. Without faith it is impossible to please God. This matter is essential for the salvation of each of us. That is why Mormon testified of this so plainly and boldly. That is why Moroni's voice literally shakes the earth when you hear it, as he is crying repentance to all who have not yet turned unto the Lord. We will be judged by the words we have been given.

[brlenox]

Jules, what you describe here is not the case for me. I have read your testimonies and others. They are pretty easy to find. I genuinely am interested and accept that you and others have had great experiences. I believe that I have made that clear over the months. I have searched and sought for insight and instruction concerning the dilemma that some of you provide for certain elements of profound rightness in some of your observations. However, there are certain clear cut behaviors that are well defined, clearly spelled out, and beyond contestation as the words and counsel of the prophets from Joseph Smith to the Latter-day prophets. I have to ignore them to believe those of you, of these experiences, are a suitable pattern of exemplary behavior that should be emulated. There is a taint that I cannot step over.

Do you think that having these experiences means a person must be "perfect"?? Who ever said that it did? Even Cain walked and talked with God....! I have LOTS to overcome. Denver Snuffer claims he does too. I believe him - I've heard him swearing.... =)) . OUR idea of what qualifies us for these experiences is certainly not the same as God's idea. We must quit judging and cast off that disbelief that hinders us.....

I know you know I realize what you are saying. I am not just willy nilly picking random acts of imperfection to call people out on. Neither you nor I are about to admit of our diverse insights speaking to our complete and perfected standing before God.

I am focusing on a key, a powerful, specific key, that if Joseph Smith is a prophet to you and others, they will not go to such great lengths to say the key does not fit the lock that reveals a specific state of mind. Of all imperfections, to speak against the general authorities is a specific indicator that is a warning and alert for all of those that would receive your testimony that they, in wisdom, must not do so.

Yet there is a mindset that seeks the blessings that you speak of, that if what they are seeking is premature to their maturity, they will be tempted to overlook the key that a prophet of God provided and immediately step off of the straight and narrow path in an unrighteous pursuit for which they are yet prepared to receive. They will seek their will over the warning of God that you might want to be better prepared for the inevitable balance of great experience opens the door to great temptation, which of necessity is also beyond their ability to detect. The Boyd K. Packer Quote I provided earlier in this thread basically states that if you seek earnestly enough the Lord will give and you may find that you have run faster than you are able and may be mislead.

Joseph Smith did not give the warning he gave for us to ignore it so that we will not be the judgmental ones that suffer from our wrongful judgments. That quote is specifically a quote of judgment. It is to be used as a warning sign. It is not a statement of final judgement but simply a judgment that we are told to make in order to not be deceived.

I am confident that if you contemplate your own progress, that you will examine your past and be able to remember the first time you seconded someone's criticism of the brethren that you will recollect the sense of uneasiness that you felt. I am sure that over time with each rehearsal of the negative comments that it become easier and easier to not feel any sense of remorse or wrongness in the criticism. I am sure that as you aligned yourself with others who also voiced such things that they were perfect friends for you. Your experiences and interpretations were similar, you strengthened each other in acceptability of the condemnations of the brethren and you no longer allow any unease to surface to warn you of the ever so slight drift away from the Lord, while an impostor seeks to take his place. Hence why Josephs warning is so forceful and powerful and even as an intellectual evaluation is sufficient to give adequate meaning to the principle he defines.

I am confident as well that should you choose to respond you will have a reasonable explanation why that feeling of unease is not rooted in good. I have already read Denver's explanation of how that feeling of ill ease is predicated upon our resistance to leaving wrongly perceived perceptions and is based on trying to hold on to our comfortable place. Sometimes that may be true...Sometimes it is dead wrong.

[superdan]

Jules point is correct.

brlenox: Awake! Awake!

Frederick: Thanks.

911 was an inside job. WTC 7 was a controlled demolition.

Stating truth in this day and age is a revolutionary act.

[Stephanie B]

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

Frederick,
Would you feel comfortable sharing with us your testimony of your knowledge of God? This is very powerful statement you are making here.
Thank you!

[superdan]

Happy one: Frederick elaborated on some of that here.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28544&p=405311&hil ... el#p405311" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Stephanie B]

Happy one: Frederick elaborated on some of that here.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28544&p=405311&hil ... el#p405311" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks superdan for the link.
Thank you Frederick for sharing with us such a powerful experience and testimony!

[freedomforall]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

If you know God so well, why do you come off so arrogant and critical? And where does hope come into the picture, we are told we cannot be saved without hope. If you recall the Book of Mormon contains plain and precious parts removed from the Bible. If you do not believe it, read the Book of Mormon.

Moro. 7:3
3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.

Moro 7
38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.

40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?


41 And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.

42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

We do not have to Know God in the fullest to be saved. We must be lowly of heart, meek, have faith, hope and charity.

What is faith?
Alma 32:21
21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.