Snuffer & PTHG

[freedomforall]

I also know Nephi and why the spirit stopped his utterance and how the children of God are to be instructed of the Lord.

Why did the spirit stop Nephi's utterance? From my reading of 2 nephi 31:20-21, the doctrine of Christ is given in 7 steps:
Steps 1-4: the 1st 4 principles & ordinances
Step 5: press forward with steadfastness in Christ, feasting upon the word
Step 6: enduring to the end
Step 7: receiving our C&E from the Lord.

Then, in chapter 32:6-7 Nephi tells us that there are more than 7 steps, and Christ will give them to you personally in the flesh.

Then the spirit stops Nephi's utterance. Nephi wants to tell us steps 8-n, but he is constrained.

Let's go over chapter 32.

Chapter 32 Now remember that this takes place prior to the Lord's birth as noted in the heading.

Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost—Men must pray and gain knowledge for themselves from the Holy Ghost. About 559–545 B.C.

1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts? Pretty clear.

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost? Pretty clear.

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do. Feast.

4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark. Ask and knock.

5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. All things.

6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. It is when Christ comes in the flesh, not when we come in the flesh, at least until we ask and knock.

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be. His utterance was not stopped because there are great mysteries yet to be pronounced, rather, his utterance was stopped because of unbelief and other things told us in this verse. These stumbling blocks still exist today. It's as if he were addressing a stone wall.

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the devil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray. Pretty clear about prayer and learning.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul. For instance, can we vote for the lesser of two evils and then ask God to consecrate that performance unto the welfare of our soul?
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[freedomforall]

I've read his latest blog and I see nothing of the kind. For too long people are fixed on a paradigm that it's difficult to expand it or to see it from a different light. Look at the animation below. Is the figure spinning clockwise or counterclockwise? I see it moving clockwise. And when I study it long enough, I can see it moving counter clockwise. Then I can see it moving clockwise again.



We may have people argue that it can only move clockwise and others that swear counter clockwise. And both remain stubborn and unbending. Then there are the few who choose to study it out further and are able to see a different perspective. I understand why Denver was excommunicated. I also see that he has been obedient in the tasks given him by the Lord. I just don't see the disdain in his words the way others do. I see a man who has expounded on scripture. He has no more disdain than Nephi or Moroni or Joseph Smith who clearly wrote about the condemnation that we would fall under and how we can escape it. Furthermore, I do see that he is temple worthy, sustains his leaders, he still attends church and does what he can under his current restrictions.

And then there are those who would not even be able to get past condemning you for posting a nude silhouette"

Hm. It could simply be wearing a bodysuit.

How did God react every time he saw Eve in the garden stark naked? Oh, that's right, He created her in the nude. And she probably left here in the nude. I think there is a difference in nudity and pornography. The latter is designed to cause sexual arousal. Somehow I don't think Eve was a cause of this for Deity. I cannot answer for the TSA, however.

[durangout]

For those condeming Vaquero's methodology for judging Snuffer's works, I have a question: Should I watch porn so I can judge for myself if it's good or bad?

[lemuel]

For those condeming Vaquero's methodology for judging Snuffer's works, I have a question: Should I watch porn so I can judge for myself if it's good or bad?

Yes, but you should also try LSD simultaneously to find out if LSD s good or bad.

Report back to me on what you see.

/:)

[brlenox]

Brlenox, maybe your boy saw a naked lady, but mine did not. Never mind, point clearly missed - on all counts. I'm bowing out of another pointless Snuffer argument so I can move on to where my time will be better spent...

I think this is the first time we have ever been in disagreement over Denver.

And, I must congratulate you on your apparent improvement in status. To advance from apostate to heretic is an obvious move in the right direction. Pretty soon you'll be singing "We thank Thee Oh God for a Prophet" right along with the rest of the brethrenites....You go girl!! O:-)

[Frederick]

brlenox wrote: When individuals such as Denver and some here seek to supplant the natural educational processes of learning to hear the voice of the Holy Ghost, they risk destroying those unprepared. When it is time to know it will be plain to understand and the spirit is so plain to Nephi that he knows when to stop expounding because he knows if they cannot hear the voice of the spirit they are not ready. Denver does not know this and neither do most of his ill-taught supporters. It is the order of heaven. That is the purpose of this counsel by Boyd K. Packer:

You truly do not know the first thing about Denver.

Ah, but Thomas ... what is genuinely of far greater significance and far greater importance is that I know enough about God and his Son Jesus Christ to recognize their hand in guiding the church according to the principles of the restored gospel. I know Elder Packer, and President Monson, and Elder Bednar and dozens of others who are called by the Lord and sustained by the membership and in fact are sustained by me.

I also know Nephi and why the spirit stopped his utterance and how the children of God are to be instructed of the Lord. Perhaps I do not know the FIRST thing about Denver but I clearly know the LAST thing. He has been judged and found wanting and now speaks with the voice of an apostate. He should not be heeded by anyone who sustains the Lord or his church or his chosen leaders.

Knowing about God is not the same thing as knowing him. It is the knowledge of God that will save you.

for there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him: knowledge implies more than faith.
For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every other necessary thing in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected and obtain salvation;

Perhaps you and keep the faith would do better to share your testimonies, i.e. knowledge of God, in order that you might bring people unto Christ, rather than criticizing people for their beliefs. It doesn't matter if they are correct or not. We claim the privilege to worship and believe how or what we may.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I know that God lives. I know that we have true doctrine in our scriptures. I know that the Lectures on Faith teach true and complete doctrine and if we study it, we can learn what it means to have faith and there by obtain the knowledge of God for ourselves.

[rockwood]

I've read his latest blog and I see nothing of the kind. For too long people are fixed on a paradigm that it's difficult to expand it or to see it from a different light. Look at the animation below. Is the figure spinning clockwise or counterclockwise? I see it moving clockwise. And when I study it long enough, I can see it moving counter clockwise. Then I can see it moving clockwise again.



We may have people argue that it can only move clockwise and others that swear counter clockwise. And both remain stubborn and unbending. Then there are the few who choose to study it out further and are able to see a different perspective. I understand why Denver was excommunicated. I also see that he has been obedient in the tasks given him by the Lord. I just don't see the disdain in his words the way others do. I see a man who has expounded on scripture. He has no more disdain than Nephi or Moroni or Joseph Smith who clearly wrote about the condemnation that we would fall under and how we can escape it. Furthermore, I do see that he is temple worthy, sustains his leaders, he still attends church and does what he can under his current restrictions.

And then there are those who would not even be able to get past condemning you for posting a nude silhouette - so they could get to the stage where they can even see and test the analogy you described. 8-| People see whatever they want and refuse to explore further. People judge unrighteously based on only a fraction of the picture, and fear of having their paradigms shattered. People judge based on their own fears and insecurities and guilt (pride and selfishness also seem to be factors, which I believe are derived from fear). If only we could just embrace all truth - regardless of what the messenger "looks like", regardless of our limited understanding, letting go of our traditions, with humility and the open faith and willingness to learn - like children have. Ask a child to look at the figure above. They will not see a nude body, nor will they be offended when you show them that the figure also turns a different way if you look at it slightly differently! They will become excited and figuratively say "WOW! That's so cool! I didn't know that... show me more!"

I've read his latest blog and I see nothing of the kind. For too long people are fixed on a paradigm that it's difficult to expand it or to see it from a different light. Look at the animation below. Is the figure spinning clockwise or counterclockwise? I see it moving clockwise. And when I study it long enough, I can see it moving counter clockwise. Then I can see it moving clockwise again.



We may have people argue that it can only move clockwise and others that swear counter clockwise. And both remain stubborn and unbending. Then there are the few who choose to study it out further and are able to see a different perspective. I understand why Denver was excommunicated. I also see that he has been obedient in the tasks given him by the Lord. I just don't see the disdain in his words the way others do. I see a man who has expounded on scripture. He has no more disdain than Nephi or Moroni or Joseph Smith who clearly wrote about the condemnation that we would fall under and how we can escape it. Furthermore, I do see that he is temple worthy, sustains his leaders, he still attends church and does what he can under his current restrictions.

And then there are those who would not even be able to get past condemning you for posting a nude silhouette - so they could get to the stage where they can even see and test the analogy you described. 8-| People see whatever they want and refuse to explore further. People judge unrighteously based on only a fraction of the picture, and fear of having their paradigms shattered. People judge based on their own fears and insecurities and guilt (pride and selfishness also seem to be factors, which I believe are derived from fear). If only we could just embrace all truth - regardless of what the messenger "looks like", regardless of our limited understanding, letting go of our traditions, with humility and the open faith and willingness to learn - like children have. Ask a child to look at the figure above. They will not see a nude body, nor will they be offended when you show them that the figure also turns a different way if you look at it slightly differently! They will become excited and figuratively say "WOW! That's so cool! I didn't know that... show me more!"

Well said!

BTW, every time I focus on the shadows cast by her feet, she switches to counterclockwise immediately...Sometimes we may need a little help to be able to see things differently. ;)

[AGStacker]

One need not read books by one who speaks ill of the Lord's anointed in order to be able to discern whether Snuffer speaks the truth or no any more than one need read other Church critics to determine whether Brigham Young and the Twelve are Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. The Church is true and President Monson is Joseph's legal successor. I need not, therefore, read Snuffer.

That there are so many Snuffer disciples who continue to carp against the Church on an "LDS" forum is troubling. I don't spend much time here anymore and will likely spend less in the future for this reason.

According to the Doctrine and Covenants Monson is not Joseph's legal successor but mainly the presiding high priest. The two are very different.

[freedomforall]

brlenox wrote: When individuals such as Denver and some here seek to supplant the natural educational processes of learning to hear the voice of the Holy Ghost, they risk destroying those unprepared. When it is time to know it will be plain to understand and the spirit is so plain to Nephi that he knows when to stop expounding because he knows if they cannot hear the voice of the spirit they are not ready. Denver does not know this and neither do most of his ill-taught supporters. It is the order of heaven. That is the purpose of this counsel by Boyd K. Packer:

Ah, but Thomas ... what is genuinely of far greater significance and far greater importance is that I know enough about God and his Son Jesus Christ to recognize their hand in guiding the church according to the principles of the restored gospel. I know Elder Packer, and President Monson, and Elder Bednar and dozens of others who are called by the Lord and sustained by the membership and in fact are sustained by me.

I also know Nephi and why the spirit stopped his utterance and how the children of God are to be instructed of the Lord. Perhaps I do not know the FIRST thing about Denver but I clearly know the LAST thing. He has been judged and found wanting and now speaks with the voice of an apostate. He should not be heeded by anyone who sustains the Lord or his church or his chosen leaders.

Knowing about God is not the same thing as knowing him. It is the knowledge of God that will save you.

for there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him: knowledge implies more than faith.
For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every other necessary thing in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected and obtain salvation;

Perhaps you and keep the faith would do better to share your testimonies, i.e. knowledge of God, in order that you might bring people unto Christ, rather than criticizing people for their beliefs. It doesn't matter if they are correct or not. We claim the privilege to worship and believe how or what we may.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I know that God lives. I know that we have true doctrine in our scriptures. I know that the Lectures on Faith teach true and complete doctrine and if we study it, we can learn what it means to have faith and there by obtain the knowledge of God for ourselves.

Let's go one step further, shall we? The knowledge of God is good and true, but it is our application of those truths, His gospel, our repentance and believing He can save us...that saves us. We can have knowledge, yet still be in a state of the natural man. We must be cleansed, and apply the Atonement in order for the saving principles to take effect, right?

[Franktalk]

To overcome this temporal plane we must acquire knowledge and we must experience many things. These events change us and as each step is completed we move along in knowledge and understanding. Our guides are helpful as well. One of the key things we are to know is to know God. Much more than knowing about Him. The attraction that Denver has to many is he is freely talking about knowing God. If the church fulfilled this requirement then no one would read Denver's books.

[InfoWarrior82]

To overcome this temporal plane we must acquire knowledge and we must experience many things. These events change us and as each step is completed we move along in knowledge and understanding. Our guides are helpful as well. One of the key things we are to know is to know God. Much more than knowing about Him. The attraction that Denver has to many is he is freely talking about knowing God. If the church fulfilled this requirement then no one would read Denver's books.

Weird. My experience has been different. I've been told that I must build my own testimony of God.

What more about the nature of God do we need to know than has already been said?

[Franktalk]

Weird. My experience has been different. I've been told that I must build my own testimony of God.

What more about the nature of God do we need to know than has already been said?

It is like I said it is not about God it is to know God. We must move past what we can learn to what we can experience. It seems that you may not know there is a difference.

[Franktalk]

As a temporal being we can view knowledge as separate from experience but the spiritual walk changes that. Knowledge directly changes who we are. We experience knowledge by living the symbolic nature of knowledge. It is how we embrace knowledge in spiritual form. Spiritual knowledge always imparts a change to us. Temporal knowledge does not have the force of spiritual knowledge. To know about God may or may not impart a change in us. But to know God will change us and there is nothing we can do to stop it. Once we go to meet God in the spirit we are changed and that change is talked about all over the scriptures.

[InfoWarrior82]

Weird. My experience has been different. I've been told that I must build my own testimony of God.

What more about the nature of God do we need to know than has already been said?

It is like I said it is not about God it is to know God. We must move past what we can learn to what we can experience. It seems that you may not know there is a difference.

You are splitting hairs. The church isn't holding anyone back. I'm sorry if you feel like you're being held back. As for me, I'm progressing just nicely.

I'll ask again, what more do we need to know about the nature of God that we don't already know?

[clarkkent14]

I'll ask again, what more do we need to know about the nature of God that we don't already know?

You can know every detail about Him, but it will be of no value. You must Know Him. Big difference.

[Frederick]

Weird. My experience has been different. I've been told that I must build my own testimony of God.

What more about the nature of God do we need to know than has already been said?

By simply asking this question, you are showing that you do not understand what it means to know God, nor do you understand what is written in our scriptures concerning this. I said this to keep the faith earlier, it is easy to discern who has received the knowledge of God by the words they speak and the spirit they convey.

I have posted this quote several times already in the hopes that people would understand what the message is contained in this scriptural passage.

For there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him: knowledge implies more than faith.
For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every other necessary thing in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected and obtain salvation;

When the Brother of Jared saw the Lord, he had faith no longer, he had knowledge. It is this knowledge that will save you. Notice, that where faith is, it describes visions, dreams, etc..., as well as every "necessary" thing, in order that the possessors of faith may obtain salvation. Mormon said that one of these necessary things was the ministering of angels. We learn that in the temple, we need to receive true messengers sent directly from the Father in order to receive the word of God. These things are "necessary" in order that we may obtain salvation. This is what is written in our scriptures. If you have not received the knowledge of God, you do not have faith. For where faith is, there will be the knowledge of God also. Mormon said the same thing. Angels "appear" and minister unto you, and if they do not, you do not have faith.

Knowing God is far different than knowing about God. Read the scriptures. Look at what they teach us. We can choose to heed the words written before us, or we can reject them. It is our choice, but our salvation hangs in the balance.

[clarkkent14]

it is easy to discern who has received the knowledge of God by the words they speak and the spirit they convey.

You can't overstate this! It is through shared knowledge and Faith that we recognize those who know God. It takes time to discern, but as you grow and move along the path fewer and fewer will share this knowledge. What joy it is when you find a brother or sister in the faith!

[North_Star]

To overcome this temporal plane we must acquire knowledge and we must experience many things. These events change us and as each step is completed we move along in knowledge and understanding. Our guides are helpful as well. One of the key things we are to know is to know God. Much more than knowing about Him. The attraction that Denver has to many is he is freely talking about knowing God. If the church fulfilled this requirement then no one would read Denver's books.

Weird. My experience has been different. I've been told that I must build my own testimony of God.

What more about the nature of God do we need to know than has already been said?

Something to consider:

2 Nephi 29:3?

And because my words shall hiss forth-many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be more Bible.

[marc]

I'll ask again, what more do we need to know about the nature of God that we don't already know?

You can know every detail about Him, but it will be of no value. You must Know Him. Big difference.

Enoch and Moses and others would agree.

[Franktalk]

For there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him: knowledge implies more than faith.
For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every other necessary thing in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected and obtain salvation;

When Paul wrote his letter to the Romans he described their faith as beyond the normal.

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8 First, thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Rom 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Their faith was spoken of throughout the whole world. Later Paul says his faith is shared with their faith. Quite the statement. The gift Paul spoke of is the letter he sent to them. He wanted to be there in person but he sent them the gift of knowledge. His letter details the entire plan of salvation including the overcoming of the world. But few will see what Paul wrote in those words. He expected the Romans to see the message.

The first hundred times I read Romans I did not see the message either. But as faith grows there is a point where spiritual discernment comes into play. When ones faith is weak it is temporal faith and can blow in the wind. When faith is strong it turns into knowledge and with spiritual discernment that knowledge turns into experience. If one is not in strong faith then no book can help you. The Book of Mormon, the Bible, or Denver's books. But in strong faith almost any book can bring more truth.

[InfoWarrior82]

Weird. My experience has been different. I've been told that I must build my own testimony of God.

What more about the nature of God do we need to know than has already been said?

By simply asking this question, you are showing that you do not understand what it means to know God, nor do you understand what is written in our scriptures concerning this. I said this to keep the faith earlier, it is easy to discern who has received the knowledge of God by the words they speak and the spirit they convey.

I have posted this quote several times already in the hopes that people would understand what the message is contained in this scriptural passage.

For there is a great difference between believing in God and knowing him: knowledge implies more than faith.
For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every other necessary thing in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected and obtain salvation;

When the Brother of Jared saw the Lord, he had faith no longer, he had knowledge. It is this knowledge that will save you. Notice, that where faith is, it describes visions, dreams, etc..., as well as every "necessary" thing, in order that the possessors of faith may obtain salvation. Mormon said that one of these necessary things was the ministering of angels. We learn that in the temple, we need to receive true messengers sent directly from the Father in order to receive the word of God. These things are "necessary" in order that we may obtain salvation. This is what is written in our scriptures. If you have not received the knowledge of God, you do not have faith. For where faith is, there will be the knowledge of God also. Mormon said the same thing. Angels "appear" and minister unto you, and if they do not, you do not have faith.

Knowing God is far different than knowing about God. Read the scriptures. Look at what they teach us. We can choose to heed the words written before us, or we can reject them. It is our choice, but our salvation hangs in the balance.

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

[jo1952]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

How well do you know yourself? What have you learned about yourself? What has the Church taught you about yourself?

[Frederick]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

[InfoWarrior82]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

Sooo.. you won't answer the question?

What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

It's actually not that difficult of a question. Pretty straightforward even.

[jo1952]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

Sooo.. you won't answer the question?

What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

It's actually not that difficult of a question. Pretty straightforward even.

Who IS God? Do you know? Joseph Smith told us; and he spoke the truth!