LDS Freedom Forum

log wrote:

The above verses were written concerning those who died before Christ came in the flesh, and before His Resurrection.

I'm sorry; I don't quite get that.

Alma 40:11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

It appears to be quite a bit broader than just those who died before the resurrection of Christ.

Anyways. It's cool.

The principle of MMP is also very broad; much broader than is being discussed here. Anyway, as soon as our spirit is released from a flesh body which has died, it (our spirit) does indeed get taken home to that God who gave them life. That is where the determination is made as to whether they go out anymore or not. Before Christ's Resurrection, spirits who "made it" could not yet receive their glorified body....they had to wait...but got to do so in the state of Paradise (which is what they entered if it was determined that they were righteous). When Christ Resurrected, other spirits were "resurrected" and walked the streets of Jerusalem. I take this to mean that spirits who had been waiting in Paradise received glorified bodies (and they became a part of the first resurrection...which still takes place whenever a spirit overcomes). As I said earlier, this is a shortened and limited presentation. Also, I surely do not have a perfect understanding of how this all works, or what exactly it looks like. My understanding, though, does keep getting expanded upon.

Could the supposed "universal" and "permanance" language of the resurrection be nothing more than language the Lord uses "that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory." ? (D&C 19:7) - Just a thought.

ajax wrote:Could the supposed "universal" and "permanance" language of the resurrection be nothing more than language the Lord uses "that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory." ? (D&C 19:7) - Just a thought.

I think we have a further clue in 2 Peter. When describing the flood the world is described as perished. But we know from other scripture that the world was changed. Many things remained the same before and after the flood.

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Makes me wonder what it means when scripture says a new world or a new earth. I have gone back and looked at Genesis with new eyes and now see a reshaping of the earth. I think we must look at the language used one place and see if it applied in general or applies in other areas. Many times I think we read too much into some passages. In other areas we don't read enough into the words. This is why the Holy Spirit is so important. This is why the temporal man will not receive the message from God.

jo1952 wrote:

notjamesbond003.5 wrote:So quick question:

If we do have multiple probations, were we sent back without being resurrected?
This isn't a bait question or gotcha question, but a sincere one.
I was told I'm on my 5th probation here.

njb

This is a partial representation of what I believe concerning this issue (and is a very shortened and limited explanation): We are judged at the death of each body our spirit dwells in. The determination of whether or not we go out anymore is made at that time. As to a physical resurrection of a body, this happens only once....at the end of the probation during which we achieved overcoming. That will become the glorified body our spirit gets to indwell; and we will go no more out (i.e., thrown 'back' into the lake of fire and brimstone where satan and death are).

Scriptures are very clear that our body and spirit once resurrected will never be separated again...so how do you propose to get another body, or do you just pull it up and over the former body like the skin of a grape?

"The reuniting of the spirit body with the physical body of flesh and bones after death. After resurrection, the spirit and body will never again be separated, and the person will become immortal. Every person born on earth will be resurrected ..."

SEE: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/resurr ... g&letter=r" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

freedomfighter wrote:

jo1952 wrote:

notjamesbond003.5 wrote:So quick question:

If we do have multiple probations, were we sent back without being resurrected?
This isn't a bait question or gotcha question, but a sincere one.
I was told I'm on my 5th probation here.

njb

This is a partial representation of what I believe concerning this issue (and is a very shortened and limited explanation): We are judged at the death of each body our spirit dwells in. The determination of whether or not we go out anymore is made at that time. As to a physical resurrection of a body, this happens only once....at the end of the probation during which we achieved overcoming. That will become the glorified body our spirit gets to indwell; and we will go no more out (i.e., thrown 'back' into the lake of fire and brimstone where satan and death are).

Scriptures are very clear that our body and spirit once resurrected will never be separated again...so how do you propose to get another body, or do you just pull it up and over the former body like the skin of a grape?

"The reuniting of the spirit body with the physical body of flesh and bones after death. After resurrection, the spirit and body will never again be separated, and the person will become immortal. Every person born on earth will be resurrected ..."

SEE: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/resurr ... g&letter=r" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reread what I said.

freedomfighter wrote:Scriptures are very clear that our body and spirit once resurrected will never be separated again.

D&C 138:17
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

What part of "never again to be divided" don't you understand? Our spirit will never possess a different body than the one we have right now.

To go no more out means to never have to leave heaven again:

3 Nephi 28:40
40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

freedomfighter wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:Scriptures are very clear that our body and spirit once resurrected will never be separated again.

D&C 138:17
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

What part of "never again to be divided" don't you understand? Our spirit will never possess a different body than the one we have right now.

To go no more out means to never have to leave heaven again:

3 Nephi 28:40
40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

Re-reread my comments again.

jo1952, if I've read you correctly, you think our spirit keeps coming back during our assigned dispensation until we become celestial people and then we are resurrected when we've improved all that we can? I'm pretty sure this is way outside any gospel principles I'm aware of. This sounds like a mixture of Hinduism and Mormonism. And that confuses me.

kathyn wrote:This sounds like a mixture of Hinduism and Mormonism. And that confuses me.

Kathyn, "Mormonism" is not and should not be boxed in and confined to a narrow set of beliefs and creeds. We should be open to truth from all sources.

"Mormonism is Truth… One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. (Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199)

“Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, [Hindus?] etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.”(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 316)

kathyn wrote:jo1952, if I've read you correctly, you think our spirit keeps coming back during our assigned dispensation until we become celestial people and then we are resurrected when we've improved all that we can? I'm pretty sure this is way outside any gospel principles I'm aware of. This sounds like a mixture of Hinduism and Mormonism. And that confuses me.

Actually, if our spirit does not awaken and become born of the Spirit within an "assigned" (there is additional understanding to this which I have not shared) dispensation , there is provision for those spirits as well. What I have presented is only a very limited amount of what has been revealed to me. I am only sharing what was appropriate for the purposes of addressing what some posters were bringing up on this thread.

There is so very much more which we cannot even imagine while in the flesh. We haven't figured out yet what needs to be understood while in flesh bodies; let alone what is taking place outside of this physical realm. Still, scripture tells us over and over again to "believe all things". If we aren't open to the concept of believing all things, the Holy Spirit will not be able to lead us to all things; and we will remain dwindling in unbelief. Joseph said: I have never heard of a man being damned for believing too much.

Ah, but a good question might be "believe too much of WHAT?"

natasha wrote:Ah, but a good question might be "believe too much of WHAT?"

It takes courage to maintain Faith; and the reward for Faith comes after the trial.

jo1952 wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:Scriptures are very clear that our body and spirit once resurrected will never be separated again.

D&C 138:17
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

What part of "never again to be divided" don't you understand? Our spirit will never possess a different body than the one we have right now.

To go no more out means to never have to leave heaven again:

3 Nephi 28:40
40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

Re-reread my comments again.

Does your Bishop, Stake President and area Seventy share your point of view that which you are professing on this forum?
I suspected you would skirt around my question. Does it upset your paradigm to think that our body and spirit will never be divided again? At this juncture are you saying the scripture I gave you is false?
Further, I suppose you are portraying the notion that we keep getting new bodies until we finally make it into God's presence forever. That our bodies, the one's that didn't make the grade...go back into the earth to rot and are never resurrected. Our spirit cannot inhabit more than one body at a time, correct?
Is this what we are to understand from you? Because if you are correct we can throw out all chapters from the BOM in Alma concerning the restoration. And we can discard any thoughts of having evil restored to us according to our bad deeds, not repented of, because we will keep coming back until we are just right for God's approval of us remaining with Him.
And it's okay to mock the Atonement because our spirits will end up with righteous bodies in the end, so there is no need for Christ to have ever atoned for sin.
I just want everyone to understand what you are saying here. Some will say, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, and if we don't make the grade we come back for another run.

I think the BoM teaches us about this concept, but, hey, maybe we could throw them out as well. These:

2 Nephi 28
7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. We'll just come back in another body and have another go.
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, send us back in a new body, and at last, after several chances, we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

Words in italics above are not found in scripture. They were added to make a point according to what we are hearing here on this forum.

freedomfighter wrote: Does your Bishop, Stake President and area Seventy share your point of view that which you are professing on this forum?

Are you saying that all of those who have a disagreement with some leaders on matter of scripture should leave the church? Is that your stand? Just how many people would be left if all those who followed the Spirit and read for themselves the scriptures left the church?

As the Spirit of God pours out on the earth in these last days more and more will hear the call. The message from God will come directly from Him. The scriptures do not say the Spirit will be poured out upon the seventy or the stake presidents, or the Bishops. Why go to them when the message comes from God?

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: Does your Bishop, Stake President and area Seventy share your point of view that which you are professing on this forum?

Are you saying that all of those who have a disagreement with some leaders on matter of scripture should leave the church? Is that your stand? Just how many people would be left if all those who followed the Spirit and read for themselves the scriptures left the church?

As the Spirit of God pours out on the earth in these last days more and more will hear the call. The message from God will come directly from Him. The scriptures do not say the Spirit will be poured out upon the seventy or the stake presidents, or the Bishops. Why go to them when the message comes from God?

It appears that some members of the Church think that the only time an individual should trust direct personal revelation from God which concerns our personal salvation is when they are investigating the Church. After that, they should only believe that a revelation is from God which concerns their personal salvation only when and if it is a confirmation of what our leaders speak.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: Does your Bishop, Stake President and area Seventy share your point of view that which you are professing on this forum?

Are you saying that all of those who have a disagreement with some leaders on matter of scripture should leave the church? Is that your stand? Just how many people would be left if all those who followed the Spirit and read for themselves the scriptures left the church?

As the Spirit of God pours out on the earth in these last days more and more will hear the call. The message from God will come directly from Him. The scriptures do not say the Spirit will be poured out upon the seventy or the stake presidents, or the Bishops. Why go to them when the message comes from God?

I said nothing about leaving the church. You did. But you want us to believe your words without viable authority to say these things. I mean, these claims should be backed by those in authority, having come from official church doctrine, right? This stuff everyone should know so they will know what they're able to do. Why are you cheating them out of such profound info?
And you, again, skirted around my questions. I feel the need to have everything as clear as can be, so everyone can be on the same page. You opened the door, so explain by answering all my questions. I see that you had to jump in to save Jo's stance. Can't she speak for herself?
Are you speaking for the whole church with these claims? Or have you started your own church?

1 Does it upset your paradigm to think that our body and spirit will never be divided again? Or do we just throw this scripture in the mud?
2 I suppose you are portraying the notion that we keep getting new bodies until we finally make it into God's presence forever.
3 our bodies, the one's that didn't make the grade...go back into the earth to rot and are never resurrected?
4 Our spirit cannot inhabit more than one body at a time, correct?
5 if you are correct we can throw out all chapters from the BOM in Alma concerning the restoration. And we can discard any thoughts of having evil restored to us according to our bad deeds, not repented of, because we will keep coming back until we are just right for God's approval of us remaining with Him?
6 it's okay to mock the Atonement because our spirits will end up with righteous bodies in the end, so there is no need for Christ to have ever atoned for sin?
7 And what about 2 Nephi 28:7-9?

Come on, you opened the door. You can't preach doctrine according to Frank and not be questioned. Scripturally, there's too many holes in it, so it needs more clarification. I've shown you where you have posted scripture and other statements out of context. Yet you continue to hold to this, your doctrine. I think it needs further understanding by your audience. There are plenty of other threads I could go to, but if I , for one, were to actually believe this stuff, I would certainly want more to go on out of scripture. Hey, maybe soon, you'll be asked to speak in GC so everyone can learn how God accomplishes how we get back to him. And we won't even need the Book of Mormon, or the D&C., or the Pearl of Great Price for that matter. You wouldn't hold back with so much profound knowledge would you?

jo1952 wrote:

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: Does your Bishop, Stake President and area Seventy share your point of view that which you are professing on this forum?

Are you saying that all of those who have a disagreement with some leaders on matter of scripture should leave the church? Is that your stand? Just how many people would be left if all those who followed the Spirit and read for themselves the scriptures left the church?

As the Spirit of God pours out on the earth in these last days more and more will hear the call. The message from God will come directly from Him. The scriptures do not say the Spirit will be poured out upon the seventy or the stake presidents, or the Bishops. Why go to them when the message comes from God?

It appears that some members of the Church think that the only time an individual should trust direct personal revelation from God which concerns our personal salvation is when they are investigating the Church. After that, they should only believe that a revelation is from God which concerns their personal salvation only when and if it is a confirmation of what our leaders speak.

All doctrine has to be backed by "official church doctrine" which is the four standard works. And I will claim that anything coming to someone that does not mesh with ocd, does not come from God. Especially when you come on a board and expect people to believe your version of salvation. Do you preach this stuff in church? Do you think for one moment that President Monson couldn't see right through this unfounded proclaim? Or even your own Bishop?
You claim to go by things JS taught, yet when I post something from him it doesn't even get addressed. Isn't this odd?

natasha wrote:Ah, but a good question might be "believe too much of WHAT?"

I just saw the rest of the quote I had pointed to from Joseph. Here is the entire sentence (I just happened to see that another poster uses it as their signature line). It even more poignantly applies:

"I never heard of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." ~~ Joseph Smith Jr.

Franktalk is typical of so many who love to cherry pick one statement made by an early apostle as he has done with Heber C Kimball here and fit that statement into a paradigm that they themselves firmly establish in their own minds. It is akin to gospel hobbyist inclinations spoken of by Elder Oaks in his talk about how strengths can become our downfall if we obsess on any one particular concept and pound that piano key to death. Franktalk INTERPRETED Pres. Kimball as saying we have multiple mortal probations yet myriads of other Prophets both past and present have clarified and reclarified that this life is our time to prepare to meet God and perform our labors. Franktalk is a perfect example of why we need continued revelation and clarification from our modern Prophets. Otherwise members of the church will hook onto some pet concept and take it to the extreme as He has done here which eventually puts one at odds with the church and creates a division between the member and the church. It is a dangerous road to travel.

thank you.

I guess ill never have to write another post, I can just copy and paste this reply...

log wrote:Unfortunately, I have to agree that those who speak of multiple probations seem also to me to be making very determined misreadings of their sources. There's a book - The Teachings of Eternal Lives, I think the title was - which quoted several authors, still living, whom I believe with firmness would reject the interpretation placed upon their words to suggest the teaching.

I have not gotten a straight answer to this question.

If the resurrection is universal, and if the resurrection is permanent, how you gonna git multiple probations?

D&C 88:25-32
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened [which means made alive, or resurrected, in this context].

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

So it is universal.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

And it is permanent.

Some have responded with this:

D&C 76:58-60
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

However, this doesn't get around Amulek's teaching, that the resurrected lack the power to die, which is, to separate spirit from body.

Not saying it cannot be true, but nobody has yet explained it to my satisfaction.

Is this the book?

Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives
Table of Contents:
Introduction ................................................................................1
Foreword ....................................................................................1
Mysteries ....................................................................................5
Revelation ..................................................................................11
Prayer: The Key to Greater Knowledge ..............................................21
The Second Comforter ...................................................................29
Joseph and Brigham Knew More than They Could Teach ..........................31
On the Potter’s Wheel ...................................................................37
Again ........................................................................................39
From Grace to Grace, From Exaltation to Exaltation .............................41
Eternal Progression—Eternal Lives ...................................................47
Culminating Ordinances .................................................................91
Treasures in the Heavens ..............................................................101
Tried in All Things .......................................................................103
Born Again ................................................................................107
To Go No More Out. .....................................................................109
Kingdoms of Glory and the Seven Heavens .........................................111
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young ....................................................121
Joseph, Brigham, and Heber Will Finish Their Work .............................123
Joseph Smith and Some Thought-Provoking Possibilities ........................129
Elijah and John the Baptist ............................................................135
Elias, Elijah, Noah, and John the Baptist ...........................................137
God Himself Shall Come Down .........................................................143
God May Reside in the Bodies of Some Great Men ................................150
Servants Who May Be Instances of God’s Condescension ........................153
The Law of Cause and Effect ..........................................................157
The Pistis Sophia. ........................................................................161
Man: Diversity Among Men and Spirits ...............................................165
Universal Salvation ......................................................................171
The Gods ...................................................................................175
Godliness ..................................................................................178
The Head God and Godhead ............................................................178
The Father .................................................................................180
The Son .....................................................................................186
The Holy Ghost ...........................................................................188
Resurrected Beings ......................................................................189
Man Is One with God ....................................................................190
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are One God .....................................194
Doing the Works of (a) Christ ..........................................................198
Adam and Eve .............................................................................201
King and Priest ............................................................................213
Kings and Priests in the Last Days ....................................................214
Second Death ..............................................................................217
Excerpts from Orson F. Whitney’s Epic Poem “Elias” .............................225
Excerpts from Sermons of Joseph Smith. ............................................239
James Adams Funeral Sermon Delivered on 9 Oct 1843 ...........................247
King Follett Funeral Sermon Delivered on 7 April 1844. ..........................249
Plurality of Gods Sermon Delivered on 16 June 1844. .............................261
Excerpts from Sermons of Brigham Young. ..........................................267
Excerpts from Sermons of Heber C. Kimball .........................................313
The Paracletes .............................................................................321
Excerpts from 2 Esdras (Also known as 4 Ezra) .....................................325
Excerpts from Hugh Nibley ..............................................................339
Teachings of the Pearl of Great Price: Lecture 3-22................................339
The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment .............376
An Approach to the Book of Abraham. ................................................379
One Eternal Round .........................................................................381
Final Thoughts .............................................................................385
Index .........................................................................................395

Can be purchased at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... w&sr=&qid=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

log wrote: I have not gotten a straight answer to this question.

If the resurrection is universal, and if the resurrection is permanent, how you gonna git multiple probations?

Jesus told His followers that they were to forgive seventy times seven times. Jesus is the one most likely to forgive compared to us in this weak flesh. So how it is that we are commanded to forgive yet God can not figure out a way to turn the hearts of man so He too can forgive and bring the spirits of men back to Him? The whole one shot view of the plan of salvation is not in line with the character of God in my opinion. I believe it is a stumbling block in scripture so those who wish to judge can use God as their example and rest on His judgement to justify their own judgement on the earth.

Only when we refuse to see beyond the love of God and see the scriptures through the lens of love (God's love) will we see His love in the pages. The day I refused to see hate in the character of God is the day my eyes were opened.

Franktalk wrote:The whole one shot view of the plan of salvation is not in line with the character of God in my opinion.

See, that doesn't actually answer the question. And the remonstration instead of answering the question doesn't help either.

And it is, unfortunately, the direct teachings of the scriptures.

Epistemology wrote:Franktalk is typical of so many who love to cherry pick one statement made by an early apostle as he has done with Heber C Kimball here and fit that statement into a paradigm that they themselves firmly establish in their own minds. It is akin to gospel hobbyist inclinations spoken of by Elder Oaks in his talk about how strengths can become our downfall if we obsess on any one particular concept and pound that piano key to death. Franktalk INTERPRETED Pres. Kimball as saying we have multiple mortal probations yet myriads of other Prophets both past and present have clarified and reclarified that this life is our time to prepare to meet God and perform our labors. Franktalk is a perfect example of why we need continued revelation and clarification from our modern Prophets. Otherwise members of the church will hook onto some pet concept and take it to the extreme as He has done here which eventually puts one at odds with the church and creates a division between the member and the church. It is a dangerous road to travel.

thank you.

I guess ill never have to write another post, I can just copy and paste this reply...

You leave no room for individuals to receive personal revelation from the Holy Ghost where it concerns their own personal salvation. Yet Christ taught that the Holy Ghost shall teach ALL things; even more than Christ taught. I extend this to also be more than Joseph taught (and, indeed, Joseph didn't teach us everything he knew). I extend this to also be more than our leaders teach us (and, indeed, they are teaching us less today than was being taught to the members of the Church when Joseph was alive). I extend this to be more than you are willing to allow yourself to believe and teach; even though scriptures teach us to believe ALL things...and believing ALL things is a part of our own Articles of Faith. So, I will repeat once more that if we are not willing to believe all things, the Holy Ghost will not be able to teach us all things. And we cannot be saved in ignorance. Once more, this is something Joseph said:

"I never heard of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." ~~ Joseph Smith Jr.

When we close our minds to believing all things, we damn ourselves; i.e., we stop our own progression.

jo1952 wrote:

Epistemology wrote:Franktalk is typical of so many who love to cherry pick one statement made by an early apostle as he has done with Heber C Kimball here and fit that statement into a paradigm that they themselves firmly establish in their own minds. It is akin to gospel hobbyist inclinations spoken of by Elder Oaks in his talk about how strengths can become our downfall if we obsess on any one particular concept and pound that piano key to death. Franktalk INTERPRETED Pres. Kimball as saying we have multiple mortal probations yet myriads of other Prophets both past and present have clarified and reclarified that this life is our time to prepare to meet God and perform our labors. Franktalk is a perfect example of why we need continued revelation and clarification from our modern Prophets. Otherwise members of the church will hook onto some pet concept and take it to the extreme as He has done here which eventually puts one at odds with the church and creates a division between the member and the church. It is a dangerous road to travel.

thank you.

I guess ill never have to write another post, I can just copy and paste this reply...

You leave no room for individuals to receive personal revelation from the Holy Ghost where it concerns their own personal salvation. Yet Christ taught that the Holy Ghost shall teach ALL things; even more than Christ taught. I extend this to also be more than Joseph taught (and, indeed, Joseph didn't teach us everything he knew). I extend this to also be more than our leaders teach us (and, indeed, they are teaching us less today than was being taught to the members of the Church when Joseph was alive). I extend this to be more than you are willing to allow yourself to believe and teach; even though scriptures teach us to believe ALL things...and believing ALL things is a part of our own Articles of Faith. So, I will repeat once more that if we are not willing to believe all things, the Holy Ghost will not be able to teach us all things. And we cannot be saved in ignorance. Once more, this is something Joseph said:

"I never heard of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." ~~ Joseph Smith Jr.

When we close our minds to believing all things, we damn ourselves; i.e., we stop our own progression.

I believe in truth.

I believe that,

"Franktalk is a perfect example of why we need continued revelation and clarification from our modern Prophets. Otherwise members of the church will hook onto some pet concept and take it to the extreme as He has done here which eventually puts one at odds with the church and creates a division between the member and the church. It is a dangerous road to travel."

I find it difficult believe anyone when they protest their concern for the wellbeing of their ideological opponents.

Years of observation have borne out that, without known exception thus far, they have been manipulating their opponents or their audience.