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This is a start. Perhaps someone else has a better source of information concerning prophets.AGStacker wrote:How do you guys know that Monson is a prophet? The "good feeling" thingy wont work here. I've felt "good things" hearing Monson speak and I've also felt "good things" hearing Denver speak.
How do you with a surety that Monson is a prophet that has seen Christ?
freedomfighter wrote:If there were truly the existence of reincarnation, chapters 40-42 in the BoM would probably not exist, among many, many other scriptures telling us that this life is the time to prepare to meet God. Not another.kathyn wrote:So Frank, do you believe in reincarnation? How else do we have more than one mortal probation? (It's starting to sound pretty New Agey to me.)
This is what Franktalk was referring to as proof of more than one probation. When read in proper context, it doesn't suggest more than one body or multiple lives.
Let's look at it closely:
...You all the time hear me talking about truth. Truth is light, and light is life. If these principles are cultivated by us, with our families, what is there to hinder us from walking into the presence of God, or into the presence of those who stand between us and him? I do not believe that we can emerge right into the presence of God, although we may see him, not in the flesh, but we can in the Spirit, if he touches the eyes of our understanding; but we cannot see him with these bodies of flesh. Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations.
If we are, as some are, guilty of doing wrong, and treasuring up and practicing principles that lead to death, we cannot attain to principles
of exaltation...
At first glance this sentence could suggest more than one life span: Then ,(which I take as to mean afterward), of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations
But then he qualifies this with further explanation: or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations.
Which to me, anyway, suggest that we go on after death into other learning phases he refers to as dispensations until we are ready to go into God's presence, and I add...with our resurrected body.
SEE: http://jod.mrm.org/6/63" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So it is universal.D&C 88:25-32
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened [which means made alive, or resurrected, in this context].
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
And it is permanent.Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.
However, this doesn't get around Amulek's teaching, that the resurrected lack the power to die, which is, to separate spirit from body.D&C 76:58-60
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
clarkkent14 wrote:It's quite simple. We are cast out. Away from God's presence is Hell, physically and spiritually. A lone and dreary wilderness. We live in a Telestial sphere. Three degrees away. Adam, Adam, Adam. Knock Knock Knock. We live amongst " liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie." The Holy Spirit will visit us here. If we obey, we will receive more. "These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial." We can obey His Voice which will come from The Way. Have you received the Holy Ghost? Are you receiving and entertaining Angels? Should you be seeking further light and knowledge? (these are rhetorical questions)
If you or I cannot bear His presence now, what makes you think we can bear it after we die? Do we have to change while in this mortal probation? Become new creations? New creatures? Why would that change necessarily have to take place while here in probation?
Are not the inhabitants of this world numerous as the "stars in the firmament, or as the sand upon the seashore?" Will we not receive what deserve? Can we go where God and Christ dwell [right now]? So if we don't prove ourselves while in probation do we receive "worlds without end?" Are we not "cast out" from their presence? See here we go again… We are cast out. Away from God's presence is Hell, physically and spiritually. A lone and dreary wilderness. We live in a Telestial sphere. Three degrees away. Adam, Adam, Adam. Knock Knock Knock. We live amongst " liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie." The Holy Spirit will visit us here. If we obey, we will receive more. "These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial." We can obey His Voice which will come from The Way.109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
Glory to God!
EDIT: to add [right now] to avoid confusion with eventually yes.
Please rephrase your question so I can understand exactly what you desire. I understand the scriptures you posted but I would like a more definitive question. Does this make sense? If someone answers it to your satisfaction, great.log wrote:Unfortunately, I have to agree that those who speak of multiple probations seem also to me to be making very determined misreadings of their sources. There's a book - The Teachings of Eternal Lives, I think the title was - which quoted several authors, still living, whom I believe with firmness would reject the interpretation placed upon their words to suggest the teaching.
I have not gotten a straight answer to this question.
If the resurrection is universal, and if the resurrection is permanent, how you gonna git multiple probations? You cannot. The body and spirit are inseparable after the resurrection according to scripture. From the following we read: The reuniting of the spirit body with the physical body of flesh and bones after death. After resurrection, the spirit and body will never again be separated, and the person will become immortal. Every person born on earth will be resurrected because Jesus Christ overcame death (1 Cor. 15:20–22).
So it is universal.D&C 88:25-32
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened [which means made alive, or resurrected, in this context].
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
And it is permanent.Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.
Some have responded with this:However, this doesn't get around Amulek's teaching, that the resurrected lack the power to die, which is, to separate spirit from body.D&C 76:58-60
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
Not saying it cannot be true, but nobody has yet explained it to my satisfaction.
The key is that "we cannot see Him with these bodies of flesh". I agree with this statement. We must change in order to see God while we are in the flesh. If we do see God then God has given us a body to be able to see Him. We cannot see a difference but one exist none the less. Joseph Smith had such a body and so did Moses. If they did not their body would have disintegrated in the presence of God. Now some can be taken in the spirit to see God without receiving a new body. In order to stand in the presence of God in the flesh the body must not be in corruptible flesh but incorruptible flesh. The person must shed off that natural man to the point that what is left is acceptable to God. This is to overcome the world and not have the world as a cloak but walk in the spirit so we can also walk with God. This is our goal. Sadly the document which described this process was removed by the church. It is the Lecture on Faith removed from the D and C. The church removed the D section of the book.freedomfighter wrote: Let's look at it closely:
...You all the time hear me talking about truth. Truth is light, and light is life. If these principles are cultivated by us, with our families, what is there to hinder us from walking into the presence of God, or into the presence of those who stand between us and him? I do not believe that we can emerge right into the presence of God, although we may see him, not in the flesh, but we can in the Spirit, if he touches the eyes of our understanding; but we cannot see him with these bodies of flesh. Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations.
freedomfighter wrote:Beware of False Prophets and False Teachers
Just don't spread it as truth. If you believe this, more power to you, you have my blessings. It is not, however, scriptural as I have stated so many times before. We are warned against paying heed to anyone teaching false and vain notions not coming from scripture. If you are stating that this belief is your own opinion then we have no problem. God bless.Franktalk wrote:The key is that "we cannot see Him with these bodies of flesh". I agree with this statement. We must change in order to see God while we are in the flesh. If we do see God then God has given us a body to be able to see Him. We cannot see a difference but one exist none the less. Joseph Smith had such a body and so did Moses. If they did not their body would have disintegrated in the presence of God. Now some can be taken in the spirit to see God without receiving a new body. In order to stand in the presence of God in the flesh the body must not be in corruptible flesh but incorruptible flesh. The person must shed off that natural man to the point that what is left is acceptable to God. This is to overcome the world and not have the world as a cloak but walk in the spirit so we can also walk with God. This is our goal. Sadly the document which described this process was removed by the church. It is the Lecture on Faith removed from the D and C. The church removed the D section of the book.freedomfighter wrote: Let's look at it closely:
...You all the time hear me talking about truth. Truth is light, and light is life. If these principles are cultivated by us, with our families, what is there to hinder us from walking into the presence of God, or into the presence of those who stand between us and him? I do not believe that we can emerge right into the presence of God, although we may see him, not in the flesh, but we can in the Spirit, if he touches the eyes of our understanding; but we cannot see him with these bodies of flesh. Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations.
If one fails to overcome the world and break the bonds of death then we are still bound to death and are placed back into the world to try again. We remain bound to death until we do the things which breaks the bonds. This is explained in Romans by Paul and explained by Joseph Smith in the Lecture on Faith.
Yes FF we do disagree on probations. But the good news it does not matter. We can break the bonds of death by doing the spiritual walk and overcoming the world. I agree that to overcome must be done in this lifetime. I just see another if we don't make it.
Since you are not my spiritual guide I hope you don't mind if I do not take your advice. Please feel free to follow who ever you wish. In the eternities we will end at the same place. Of course since you are still under the law you may feel we will not end up in the same place. Those under the law do tend to judge unrighteously.freedomfighter wrote: Just don't spread it as truth. If you believe this, more power to you, you have my blessings. It is not, however, scriptural as I have stated so many times before. We are warned against paying heed to anyone teaching false and vain notions not coming from scripture. If you are stating that this belief is your own opinion then we have no problem. God bless.
This is the whole problem. You are endeavoring to teach something that isn't taught over the pulpit for the whole of the church to gain from which is not acceptable. And I'm not alone in this opposing stance. You don't have to take my advice, but you better pay heed to this warning. He is your spiritual guide:Franktalk wrote:The scriptures are interpreted many ways
In fairness, Frank's not exactly teaching for the whole church. Most of us stopped following this thread weeks ago.freedomfighter wrote:
This is the whole problem. You are endeavoring to teach something that isn't taught over the pulpit for the whole of the church to gain from which is not acceptable.
What about lurkers coming to gain light and knowledge. What message should they be receiving that they can rely on? Or don't they count? They can go away and tell all their friends not to worry about their sins because they'll get to come back for another run at life.lemuel wrote:In fairness, Frank's not exactly teaching for the whole church. Most of us stopped following this thread weeks ago.freedomfighter wrote:
This is the whole problem. You are endeavoring to teach something that isn't taught over the pulpit for the whole of the church to gain from which is not acceptable.
I have always stated that people should seek God. My words mean nothing. Seek for yourself and listen to the Holy Spirit. I am sure you have no problem with this. Or do you?freedomfighter wrote: What about lurkers coming to gain light and knowledge. What message should they be receiving that they can rely on? Or don't they count? They can go away and tell all their friends not to worry about their sins because they'll get to come back for another run at life.
Besides, you must have peeked, or you wouldn't have said something.
The warning is not to follow men. Somehow we are to believe that the prophets of the church are not men. I find it amazing that the video never once says to check with God about false prophets, but instead check with men from the church. I say to check with God and follow who He says to follow. But I know He will say to follow Him. Listen carefully to the statements made. But the most important message is the one missing. Check with the Spirit of God and trust no man.freedomfighter wrote:
I sure don't know for sure. There is at the end of a dispensation a resurrection for the just and the unjust. So at that time all are judged one way or another. There is judgement and there is punishment. I sure do not know the details but the scriptures are clear there is a judgement at the end of the dispensation. I do know that to be judged while in the flesh is better than being judged at the end of the dispensation. I suspect that there is some form of choice in the system. Like if you have achieved some level of heaven you may elect to stay but I sure do not know for sure. There are many scriptures which hint at some of the details but for me the Spirit is silent on those subjects.notjamesbond003.5 wrote:So quick question:
If we do have multiple probations, were we sent back without being resurrected?
This isn't a bait question or gotcha question, but a sincere one.
I was told I'm on my 5th probation here.
njb
Because those who obtain that "pillarship" are already occasional visitors to the temple of God in this life.jo1952 wrote:Scriptures speak the message of MMP in many places; but can only be discerned spiritually. One of the more clear verses is here:
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
This is a partial representation of what I believe concerning this issue (and is a very shortened and limited explanation): We are judged at the death of each body our spirit dwells in. The determination of whether or not we go out anymore is made at that time. As to a physical resurrection of a body, this happens only once....at the end of the probation during which we achieved overcoming. That will become the glorified body our spirit gets to indwell; and we will go no more out (i.e., thrown 'back' into the lake of fire and brimstone where satan and death are).notjamesbond003.5 wrote:So quick question:
If we do have multiple probations, were we sent back without being resurrected?
This isn't a bait question or gotcha question, but a sincere one.
I was told I'm on my 5th probation here.
njb
See my response to njb.log wrote:Because those who obtain that "pillarship" are already occasional visitors to the temple of God in this life.jo1952 wrote:Scriptures speak the message of MMP in many places; but can only be discerned spiritually. One of the more clear verses is here:
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
So, since the scriptures teach that the resurrection is universal, and that the resurrection is permanent, how do you propose to get MMP?
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
The above verses were written concerning those who died before Christ came in the flesh, and before His Resurrection. The first resurrection has been on-going since Christ's Resurrection. If they died in a state of righteousness, they got to wait in spirit form (without a physical body) in Paradise. As for the wicked, they would remain in bondage to the conditions of the physical world...in bondage to death and being where Satan is (and Satan is here on the earth---this is his dominion of darkness). There are many flesh body deaths; but the individual spirit will only have one glorified body to dwell in. It will be the body dwelled in during the probation the spirit was able to be born of the Spirit...aka overcome...aka fully awaken...aka be sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, aka were able to see God and His kingdom, etc.log wrote:That doesn't seem to mesh well with Alma 40. It's too long to cite in full, but I trust you can see the reason for my reticence?
A relevant bit, I guess:12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
I'm sorry; I don't quite get that.The above verses were written concerning those who died before Christ came in the flesh, and before His Resurrection.
It appears to be quite a bit broader than just those who died before the resurrection of Christ.Alma 40:11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.