LDS Freedom Forum

Franktalk wrote:

sleepyhead wrote:Hello franktalk,

>>>So like many of your assumptions you are wrong. But maybe you can help. I have been looking for a good electronic copy of the book of Mormon with a good search engine. I use e-sword for the Bible. Is there a similar free download for the Book of Mormon?<<<

Here is a webpage with the book of Mormon.
http://web.archive.org/web/200805120134 ... oMorm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What I did was I used adobe acrobat (purchased version) to download it and then used the find command in acrobat to search. My pdf version is a little under 3 M if you want me to I can send you a copy.

Thanks for the info. I already have a pdf version of the book. I was hoping to find an easier way rather than use the pdf. Do you have e-sword? If not you can download for free.

Here is another source for reading anywhere in the book:

http://bookofmormononline.net/#/home" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FF, thanks for the scriptures.

Franktalk wrote:FF, thanks for the scriptures.

You're welcome, Frankt

FF,

It is true that the book of Mormon is easier to read than the Bible. The scriptures in the Bible had to be hard to understand because if they were plain they would have been burned by the church. However when I read the Bible I understood it differently than most. And when I read the book of Mormon it matched my view of the Bible. But the book of Mormon still has a temporal and spiritual understanding.

I have written a few commentaries and posted them on this site. You and I don't see the scriptures the same. Some parts we do but when it comes to the spiritual side we differ. I am fine with that.

Franktalk wrote:FF,

It is true that the book of Mormon is easier to read than the Bible. The scriptures in the Bible had to be hard to understand because if they were plain they would have been burned by the church. However when I read the Bible I understood it differently than most. And when I read the book of Mormon it matched my view of the Bible. But the book of Mormon still has a temporal and spiritual understanding.

I have written a few commentaries and posted them on this site. You and I don't see the scriptures the same. Some parts we do but when it comes to the spiritual side we differ. I am fine with that.

Everything will come out in the wash someday. I simply do my best to expound the scriptures for others to gain awareness. I'm still learning, as we all should be. I have no desire to wrest the word of God, so I stand firm in my posts. But, like when Coachmarc pointed out something I was in error with, I acknowledged the error and humbly said I was wrong. I mean, I certainly do not have a photographic memory and am subject to forget some key point(s) at times.

That's life!

I hope you enjoy the sites I posted. It's nice to just click on a scripture and have it read to me.

I wonder if anyone recalls an early narrator by the name of Charles Freed. Boy he was good. I still have the records but they're in 33 1/3 speed on 45 sized vinyl. Bummer. I don't know how to get them converted to CD or MP3

I came across some verses in 1 Nephi 15 that I thought were interesting.

1 Nephi 15

31 And they said unto me: Doth this thing mean the torment of the body in the days of probation, or doth it mean the final state of the soul after the death of the temporal body, or doth it speak of the things which are temporal?
32 And it came to pass that I said unto them that it was a representation of things both temporal and spiritual; for the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation.

I found it interesting that Nephi is responding to his brothers question would say both temporal and spiritual. Yet it seems the question from the brother has three parts and none appear to be spiritual. Could this mean the brother missed the spiritual aspect of what Nephi was talking about? I find it also interesting that the days of probation seem to be separated from the final state of the soul after death of the temporal body. I like to ponder these things.

I also found it interesting to follow the story of the olive tree. This in part being described by 1 Nephi 15:12-15. It seems the Jews are treated as a group over the ages and represented by branches for various groups. Yet it does not seem to match the one life and it is over picture of the plan of salvation. It seems that the group is being described over many generations and the focus is on the final judgement at the end. Could this be related to Nephi's brothers question about a final state of the soul? And if so what mechanism of God could allow groups over many generations to share in a final judgement having experienced a complete age? Makes me wonder why it is that God spent so much effort describing this long period spanning many generations. It also makes me wonder why it is that some lucky few would be around when Christ returns and receive an outpouring of the Holy Spirit yet all of those born earlier did not receive that advantage. Almost like God is a respecter of persons if we have but one probation. Just something to ponder.

Franktalk wrote:I came across some verses in 1 Nephi 15 that I thought were interesting.

1 Nephi 15

31 And they said unto me: Doth this thing mean the torment of the body in the days of probation, or doth it mean the final state of the soul after the death of the temporal body, or doth it speak of the things which are temporal?
32 And it came to pass that I said unto them that it was a representation of things both temporal and spiritual; for the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation.

I found it interesting that Nephi is responding to his brothers question would say both temporal and spiritual. Yet it seems the question from the brother has three parts and none appear to be spiritual. Could this mean the brother missed the spiritual aspect of what Nephi was talking about? I find it also interesting that the days of probation seem to be separated from the final state of the soul after death of the temporal body. I like to ponder these things.

By reading verses 27 thru to the end, one can see that because of iniquity one's soul is affected both bodily and spiritually----body, because sin make us carnal, devilish and an enemy to God---spiritually, because what we do in the body affects our spirit. According to the restoration we go back and have everything restored to us even bad desires. A wicked man cannot be raised to righteousness. So, ys, it affects body and spirit.

I also found it interesting to follow the story of the olive tree. This in part being described by 1 Nephi 15:12-15. It seems the Jews are treated as a group over the ages and represented by branches for various groups. Yet it does not seem to match the one life and it is over picture of the plan of salvation. It seems that the group is being described over many generations and the focus is on the final judgement at the end. Could this be related to Nephi's brothers question about a final state of the soul? And if so what mechanism of God could allow groups over many generations to share in a final judgement having experienced a complete age? Makes me wonder why it is that God spent so much effort describing this long period spanning many generations. It also makes me wonder why it is that some lucky few would be around when Christ returns and receive an outpouring of the Holy Spirit yet all of those born earlier did not receive that advantage. Almost like God is a respecter of persons if we have but one probation. Just something to ponder.

I'll get back to this later, have an appointment.

12 Behold, I say unto you, that the house of Israel was compared unto an olive tree, by the Spirit of the Lord which was in our father; and behold are we not broken off from the house of Israel, and are we not a branch of the house of Israel?

13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—

14 And at that day shall the remnant of our seed know that they are of the house of Israel, and that they are the covenant people of the Lord; and then shall they know and come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and also to the knowledge of the gospel of their Redeemer, which was ministered unto their fathers by him; wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved.

15 And then at that day will they not rejoice and give praise unto their everlasting God, their rock and their salvation? Yea, at that day, will they not receive the strength and nourishment from the true vine? Yea, will they not come unto the true fold of God?

A branch of the house of Israel will come to the knowledge of their Savior and His gospel through the restoration of His gospel in the latter days. They will come to know the true fold in which to belong.

FF,

I have no idea how your comments apply to what I wrote. You will have to explain yourself. It seems to me you pick random verses and try and leave it up to me to figure out what you mean. Normally I can come up with some idea but this last post is just too disconnected. Try again.

Franktalk wrote:FF,

I have no idea how your comments apply to what I wrote. You will have to explain yourself. It seems to me you pick random verses and try and leave it up to me to figure out what you mean. Normally I can come up with some idea but this last post is just too disconnected. Try again.

Random verses? Come on, Frankt! You're the one that gave them to me in the first place. Random, ha. And instead of going through all of your obscure reasoning, I simply gave you the meaning of those verses. Cuts out any further need for discussion. It's up to you how you deal with them afterward. Instead of learning actual meaning of scripture, it appears you analyze them to the point the true meaning becomes obscure.
Or it could be that I cannot follow your line of reasoning. This would be my problem.

I hold to this explanation:

By reading verses 27 thru to the end, one can see that because of iniquity one's soul is affected both bodily and spiritually----body, because sin is a result of being carnal, devilish and an enemy to God---spiritually, because what we do in the body affects our spirit. According to the restoration we go back and have everything restored to us even bad desires. A wicked man cannot be raised to righteousness. So, yes, it affects body and spirit.

After all, you did say something about body and spirit being affected, did you not? I simply explained how.

I will say this:
our body is subject to sin because of the fall
the sins we commit affect our spirit, it becoming filthy
at the resurrection we will have restored unto us all things...good or bad
no unclean thing can live with God, nothing. since our body and spirit are filthy because of stain from sin we cannot be with Father
in life if we repent, we then are rendered clean both body and spirit through being born again, having our sins removed
having a clean spirit and body, we will then be fit to enter into God's presence forever.
All those of the House of Israel are included after they learn and accept Christ, repent and live righteous lives. Remember the Jews have yet to know Christ was already with them. They still await Him. When they accept the truth they then can benefit from Christ's Atonement...and which church to belong to. verse 15

I don't think a deeper explanation will do any better this this one. Besides, I'm not writing a manuscript for publication.

FF,

Thank you for the post. It was clearly stated.

Your prior post is like a message from God. I may understand it or I may not. If I fail to understand it I can not act on the message. Or if I do understand it I still may not act on the message. In either case the intent of the message was not accomplished. And the fault is in me in this weak flesh. My post in which I was confused is like a probation. My environment or training may not have been in the right mix in order for me to obtain the message you had for me (in a similar way a message from God). Then in another probation the mix of environment or training may be more conducive to receiving the message. By posting another explanation you showed that you would not give up in trying to get your message across to me. It is my belief that the Book of Mormon is God's way of giving us a second explanation of the gospel for us. It is my belief that God does not give up on us. It is my belief that God will turn the universe upside down to save a soul.

In the parable of the prodigal son the father is representative of the Father in heaven. We are His son who sells off what we have and goes into a fallen world. In the world we experience many things and in time we come to know that what we truly desire is to return to our Father. It is in the complete turnaround (rejecting the world as shallow) that the Father could see His son obtain a true desire to return. The son even had to lose his pride and admit he needed help. This is representative of repentance and mercy. The Father is longsuffering in His wait for us. If it takes thousands of years and many probations He will keep the door open for us to return. And when we do return He will be there with open arms to welcome us back.

Being in hell for the soul is being separated from God. On the earth we are separated from God. Joy is when we find God and realize there is a path back to Him. The longsuffering of God is not a short lifetime.

Where you see my digging into scripture as some kind of mistake I feel completely the opposite. I see it this way:

Pro_25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

God does conceal a thing in scripture. To say He does not is to deny the glory of God. We are kings in training and as such need to search for those things which God has concealed.

Wow The ole Forum has not changed much since I left it years ago.

I do have some personal experience with Mr Snuffer. It happened about 5 years ago, about the same time I stopped reading and commenting on this forum, no connection. I went to his office to get a book signed. We had a lovely conversation except I had to struggle to get a word in edgewise. The conversation turned to emergency preps and he attempted to quote a scripture which I tried to correct him on. He would not let me finish my thought and kept interrupting me. It does not matter what the scripture was the only thing that matters to me was at that instant I felt a very uneasy dark feeling so thanked him for his time and excused myself. A few days later I felt the urge to confront him again about his misquote of the scripture on his blog. I was immediately attacked by him and his followers that frequented his blog so I never went back. It was almost as if he was regarded as a prophet on his blog and that really was kind of creepy to me. Since there are two (new to me)"private" topics on this forum about him or his books I would wonder if Brian is one of his disciples! j/k It is strange to me though.

I do not wish to disparage or ridicule him I just wanted to add a personal experience to this conversation. Just because I did not have a good experience with Mr Snuffer it should in no way shed any negative light on him. I am nobody and I spent maybe an hour of my life interacting with him so I am no judge or expert on his life.

LittleLion wrote:Wow The ole Forum has not changed much since I left it years ago.

I do have some personal experience with Mr Snuffer. It happened about 5 years ago, about the same time I stopped reading and commenting on this forum, no connection. I went to his office to get a book signed. We had a lovely conversation except I had to struggle to get a word in edgewise. The conversation turned to emergency preps and he attempted to quote a scripture which I tried to correct him on. He would not let me finish my thought and kept interrupting me. It does not matter what the scripture was the only thing that matters to me was at that instant I felt a very uneasy dark feeling so thanked him for his time and excused myself. A few days later I felt the urge to confront him again about his misquote of the scripture on his blog. I was immediately attacked by him and his followers that frequented his blog so I never went back. It was almost as if he was regarded as a prophet on his blog and that really was kind of creepy to me. Since there are two (new to me)"private" topics on this forum about him or his books I would wonder if Brian is one of his disciples! j/k It is strange to me though.

I do not wish to disparage or ridicule him I just wanted to add a personal experience to this conversation. Just because I did not have a good experience with Mr Snuffer it should in no way shed any negative light on him. I am nobody and I spent maybe an hour of my life interacting with him so I am no judge or expert on his life.

That feeling is worth noting. Korihor had many followers also. Where did that get him?
Often times, a person will get so wrapped up in themselves that they will not let anything change their mind, to the point of cutting people off in conversation so he doesn't have to hear someone else's beliefs. It's their way or the highway. Good for you is discerning the difference, LittleLion. You didn't experience that bad feeling for nothing.

Franktalk wrote:FF,

Thank you for the post. It was clearly stated.

Your prior post is like a message from God. I may understand it or I may not. If I fail to understand it I can not act on the message. Or if I do understand it I still may not act on the message. In either case the intent of the message was not accomplished. And the fault is in me in this weak flesh. My post in which I was confused is like a probation. My environment or training may not have been in the right mix in order for me to obtain the message you had for me (in a similar way a message from God). Then in another probation the mix of environment or training may be more conducive to receiving the message. By posting another explanation you showed that you would not give up in trying to get your message across to me. It is my belief that the Book of Mormon is God's way of giving us a second explanation of the gospel for us. It is my belief that God does not give up on us. It is my belief that God will turn the universe upside down to save a soul.

In the parable of the prodigal son the father is representative of the Father in heaven. We are His son who sells off what we have and goes into a fallen world. In the world we experience many things and in time we come to know that what we truly desire is to return to our Father. It is in the complete turnaround (rejecting the world as shallow) that the Father could see His son obtain a true desire to return. The son even had to lose his pride and admit he needed help. This is representative of repentance and mercy. The Father is longsuffering in His wait for us. If it takes thousands of years and many probations He will keep the door open for us to return. And when we do return He will be there with open arms to welcome us back.

Being in hell for the soul is being separated from God. On the earth we are separated from God. Joy is when we find God and realize there is a path back to Him. The longsuffering of God is not a short lifetime.

Where you see my digging into scripture as some kind of mistake I feel completely the opposite. I see it this way:

Pro_25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

God does conceal a thing in scripture. To say He does not is to deny the glory of God. We are kings in training and as such need to search for those things which God has concealed.

Well, guess what. People believing there is more than one probation are in for a huge surprise and reality check. We are close to the end of our Telestial state, this is the end of days...the Savior will be here soon...so if people are expecting more than one life, there is no more time for it. This is the life, time, to repent and seek God. I have explained where we go after death, some to Paradise others to Spirit Prison...between death and the resurrection. I have explained how the wicked will have to suffer for their own sins, Christ will have nothing to do with them...because the wicked did not change their ways, He, Himself, declares this, and those who go to the Telestial kingdom will not be able to see him either. Their bodies and spirits are filthy and cannot dwell in Fathers House, Period. The scriptures are before you. If you refuse to believe them it will be to your own peril. Do you not know that whatsoever is good comes from God? The higher light and knowledge you claim to have is not all from Him and should be understood as He wants it understood, and not by dismissing parts of scripture that do not fit your paradigm.
When it is stated by Jesus Christ that anything more, or less than what He teaches cometh of evil.


3 Nephi 11:40
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Rom. 16:17 (17–19)
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

Gal. 1:8 (6–8)
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Jesus will not save us in our sins, in this life or the next. Neither is there any time for other probations. Oh, on another world? How will the body of clay get there? Or perhaps the spirit will get a new body? So when all said and done, which body will the spirit reclaim when God decides they've had plenty of chances? How can one spirit possess more than one body? The plan of the restoration would not allow this. The Prophets have declared, "

Alma 5:31
31 ...and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!

Alma 42:4
4 ...there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

Alma Chapter 42, explains how this probationary time came about very eloquently, of which, I have already broken it down for you.

LittleLion wrote: It was almost as if he was regarded as a prophet on his blog and that really was kind of creepy to me. Since there are two (new to me)"private" topics on this forum about him or his books I would wonder if Brian is one of his disciples!

Let us say for a moment that Denver has received some revelations from God. Then your experience shows that even a man who receives revelation can be wrong at times. Now let us say that Denver has never had a revelation. It seems to me that you describe a false following of a false prophet. And just what did you use to discover a false prophet but scripture. Now let me point out that many on this board refuse to test some who call themself a prophet because they happen to hang out in some special building in Salt lake. If you test one you must test all. Blind acceptance is to accept a potential false prophet

Franktalk wrote:

LittleLion wrote: It was almost as if he was regarded as a prophet on his blog and that really was kind of creepy to me. Since there are two (new to me)"private" topics on this forum about him or his books I would wonder if Brian is one of his disciples!

Let us say for a moment that Denver has received some revelations from God. Then your experience shows that even a man who receives revelation can be wrong at times. Now let us say that Denver has never had a revelation. It seems to me that you describe a false following of a false prophet. And just what did you use to discover a false prophet but scripture. Now let me point out that many on this board refuse to test some who call themself a prophet because they happen to hang out in some special building in Salt lake. If you test one you must test all. Blind acceptance is to accept a potential false prophet

He had a manifestation by the Holy Ghost that that man was or could be a wolf in a sheep's clothing. Many members of the church are blessed with the power of discernment.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/discer ... g&letter=d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To understand or know something through the power of the Spirit. The gift of discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit. It includes perceiving the true character of people and the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations.

Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart:........................1 Sam. 16:7;
Wo unto them that call evil good:........................................................................Isa. 5:20; ( 2 Ne. 15:20; )
The things of God are spiritually discerned:............................................................1 Cor. 2:14;
To some people is given the gift of discerning of spirits:............................................1 Cor. 12:10;
That ye may not be deceived, seek the best gifts:....................................................D&C 46:8, 23;

freedomfighter wrote: Well, guess what. People believing there is more than one probation are in for a huge surprise and reality check. We are close to the end of our Telestial state, this is the end of days...the Savior will be here soon...so if people are expecting more than one life, there is no more time for it. This is the life, time, to repent and seek God. I have explained where we go after death, some to Paradise others to Spirit Prison...between death and the resurrection. I have explained how the wicked will have to suffer for their own sins, Christ will have nothing to do with them...because the wicked did not change their ways, He, Himself, declares this, and those who go to the Telestial kingdom will not be able to see him either. Their bodies and spirits are filthy and cannot dwell in Fathers House, Period. The scriptures are before you. If you refuse to believe them it will be to your own peril. Do you not know that whatsoever is good comes from God? The higher light and knowledge you claim to have is not all from Him and should be understood as He wants it understood, and not by dismissing parts of scripture that do not fit your paradigm.
When it is stated by Jesus Christ that anything more, or less than what He teaches cometh of evil.

I just love it when you form an argument about an issue which I have never stated. My belief in multiple mortal probations in no way takes away justice and punishment. You are right the scriptures are very clear. But the scriptures are also very clear that we can become a new man and leave the old man behind. The old man of sin to remain for eternity being in hell yet our new man can rise with the promise of mercy from the atonement. You see I believe that the atonement of Christ is for all spirit children no matter where they are. All one must do is repent and become new. It is you that assumed that because I believe in multiple mortal probations that that somehow negates punishment or justice. Your false assumption about me is indicative of your leap to conclusions. Just as you leap to accuse me of false beliefs you leap to accept what ever is given by some who will drift from scripture. Maybe you should examine your own system of rejection and acceptance. It seems to me to be full of holes.

There are many worlds and many dispensations in those worlds. President Kimball said that Joseph Smith told him that the spirits of men are conducted from one dispensation to the next.

"Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations."

A Sermon by President Heber C. Kimball, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, Sunday Morning, November 22, 1857.
Reported by G. D. Watt.

http://jod.mrm.org/6/63" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Justice can not be robbed. But when punishment is given and the last amount paid then we are released from prison and we continue to be placed in the plan of salvation. There are points where all are called to account for their lives. And justice will be served. But the will of God is for all to return to Him. Just who over the eternities will not have a change of heart and seek Him? In my mind Father will line up worlds without end and dispensations in many forms to change the hearts of men. I do not see the Father in heaven giving up on His children. To me it is out of character for Him to give up. I know the Father that I pray to is longsuffering and quick to forgive. I trust the Father in all things.

freedomfighter wrote: He had a manifestation by the Holy Ghost that that man was or could be a wolf in a sheep's clothing. Many members of the church are blessed with the power of discernment.

I have had many people tell me that the Holy Spirit has witnessed to them that the Mormon religion is of the devil and Joseph Smith is a false prophet of the devil. I am sure that if we took a poll we would find more people around the world who believe the Mormon religion is false than accept it. I am sure that those people would claim discernment as well. The only reference I use is between me and God. I do not use the "many members" rule of truth.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: Well, guess what. People believing there is more than one probation are in for a huge surprise and reality check. We are close to the end of our Telestial state, this is the end of days...the Savior will be here soon...so if people are expecting more than one life, there is no more time for it. This is the life, time, to repent and seek God. I have explained where we go after death, some to Paradise others to Spirit Prison...between death and the resurrection. I have explained how the wicked will have to suffer for their own sins, Christ will have nothing to do with them...because the wicked did not change their ways, He, Himself, declares this, and those who go to the Telestial kingdom will not be able to see him either. Their bodies and spirits are filthy and cannot dwell in Fathers House, Period. The scriptures are before you. If you refuse to believe them it will be to your own peril. Do you not know that whatsoever is good comes from God? The higher light and knowledge you claim to have is not all from Him and should be understood as He wants it understood, and not by dismissing parts of scripture that do not fit your paradigm.
When it is stated by Jesus Christ that anything more, or less than what He teaches cometh of evil.

I just love it when you form an argument about an issue which I have never stated. My belief in multiple mortal probations in no way takes away justice and punishment. You are right the scriptures are very clear. But the scriptures are also very clear that we can become a new man and leave the old man behind. The old man of sin to remain for eternity being in hell yet our new man can rise with the promise of mercy from the atonement. You see I believe that the atonement of Christ is for all spirit children no matter where they are. All one must do is repent and become new. It is you that assumed that because I believe in multiple mortal probations that that somehow negates punishment or justice. Your false assumption about me is indicative of your leap to conclusions. Just as you leap to accuse me of false beliefs you leap to accept what ever is given by some who will drift from scripture. Maybe you should examine your own system of rejection and acceptance. It seems to me to be full of holes.

There are many worlds and many dispensations in those worlds. President Kimball said that Joseph Smith told him that the spirits of men are conducted from one dispensation to the next.

"Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations."

A Sermon by President Heber C. Kimball, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, Sunday Morning, November 22, 1857.
Reported by G. D. Watt. Have you researched this claim for yourself?

http://jod.mrm.org/6/63" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Justice can not be robbed. But when punishment is given and the last amount paid then we are released from prison and we continue to be placed in the plan of salvation. There are points where all are called to account for their lives. And justice will be served. But the will of God is for all to return to Him. Just who over the eternities will not have a change of heart and seek Him? In my mind Father will line up worlds without end and dispensations in many forms to change the hearts of men. I do not see the Father in heaven giving up on His children. To me it is out of character for Him to give up. I know the Father that I pray to is longsuffering and quick to forgive. I trust the Father in all things.

I'll give you this much. At the end of the day when we're in our graves we'll see who was telling the truth. That is fact. You think my beliefs are full of holes, well, I think the same way about yours...that makes us even. Whoever learns the truth will be free, indeed.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: He had a manifestation by the Holy Ghost that that man was or could be a wolf in a sheep's clothing. Many members of the church are blessed with the power of discernment.

I have had many people tell me that the Holy Spirit has witnessed to them that the Mormon religion is of the devil and Joseph Smith is a false prophet of the devil. I am sure that if we took a poll we would find more people around the world who believe the Mormon religion is false than accept it. I am sure that those people would claim discernment as well. The only reference I use is between me and God. I do not use the "many members" rule of truth.

So are you saying that we shouldn't go by feelings of discomfort when around someone? Or good either? Whatever!
I'm not going to Father having your testimony, now am I?

freedomfighter wrote: So are you saying that we shouldn't go by feelings of discomfort when around someone? Or good either? Whatever!
I'm not going to Father having your testimony, now am I?

You are free to use your agency as you wish. How can God give you new knowledge if feelings of discomfort guide you? Just how many of our prophets have cried unto the Lord in anguish? You really should examine your beliefs and see how they match up with the scriptures.

I have discomfort with liberal Democrats that does not make them of the devil.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: So are you saying that we shouldn't go by feelings of discomfort when around someone? Or good either? Whatever!
I'm not going to Father having your testimony, now am I?

You are free to use your agency as you wish. How can God give you new knowledge if feelings of discomfort guide you? Just how many of our prophets have cried unto the Lord in anguish? You really should examine your beliefs and see how they match up with the scriptures. Like I said, we will know who had truth, and whose beliefs were closely in-lined with scripture. This is fact, FACT!
For what it's worth, having bad feelings about someone is new knowledge! Do you like hanging around people that would do you physical harm at the drop of a hat? Come on now, you can do better than that.

I have discomfort with liberal Democrats that does not make them of the devil.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

freedomfighter wrote: Like I said, we will know who had truth, and whose beliefs were closely in-lined with scripture.

I disagree we can know now. All those who seek Jesus and meet Him face to face.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: Like I said, we will know who had truth, and whose beliefs were closely in-lined with scripture.

I disagree we can know now. All those who seek Jesus and meet Him face to face.

I said nothing of now, I said after we are dead then we will know whose beliefs were in line with scripture. Why do you add words that didn't come from me?

I also asked you if you researched the claim you made concerning more than one probation.

You posted this:

"Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations."

A Sermon by President Heber C. Kimball, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, Sunday Morning, November 22, 1857.
Reported by G. D. Watt.

But I say, what evidence is there to prove that probation in this sense means another body in a different time on earth? Why couldn't it mean that there will be other phases we must go through toward the goal of perfection? There is no indication this means more than one earthly existence.

BTW, you failed again to read things in their proper context. Read what comes right after the mentioning of more than one probation.

If we are, as some are, guilty of doing wrong, and treasuring up and practicing principles that lead to death, we cannot attain to principles of exaltation. It is for me to do right and to do as I am told.

"Death" here means spiritual death or the second death.

By doing wrong, "we cannot attain to principles of exaltation." I've been telling you this all along.

So Frank, do you believe in reincarnation? How else do we have more than one mortal probation? (It's starting to sound pretty New Agey to me.)

kathyn wrote:So Frank, do you believe in reincarnation? How else do we have more than one mortal probation? (It's starting to sound pretty New Agey to me.)

If there were truly the existence of reincarnation, chapters 40-42 in the BoM would probably not exist, among many, many other scriptures telling us that this life is the time to prepare to meet God. Not another.

This is what Franktalk was referring to as proof of more than one probation. When read in proper context, it doesn't suggest more than one body or multiple lives.

Let's look at it closely:

...You all the time hear me talking about truth. Truth is light, and light is life. If these principles are cultivated by us, with our families, what is there to hinder us from walking into the presence of God, or into the presence of those who stand between us and him? I do not believe that we can emerge right into the presence of God, although we may see him, not in the flesh, but we can in the Spirit, if he touches the eyes of our understanding; but we cannot see him with these bodies of flesh. Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations.

If we are, as some are, guilty of doing wrong, and treasuring up and practicing principles that lead to death, we cannot attain to principles
of exaltation...

At first glance this sentence could suggest more than one life span: Then ,(which I take as to mean afterward), of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations

But then he qualifies this with further explanation: or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations.

Which to me, anyway, suggest that we go on after death into other learning phases he refers to as dispensations until we are ready to go into God's presence, and I add...with our resurrected body.

SEE: http://jod.mrm.org/6/63" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;