LDS Freedom Forum

e-eye wrote: God did not make us come here nor does he make us go back to him,we were and are able to choose. Personally I think we were able to also choose to become his children when we were intelligences. If we chose him we chose his plan and thus agreed to the possibilities of the end result. God doesn't force anyone to follow him, trials come upon the just and unjust "we chose this plan" it's what we do with it.

You are right. We all chose to come here. Just how many of us chose to come here and spend eternity in hell? I would say none. So our desire and our agency was to return to the Father after going through the flesh. But in the plan a veil is placed on us. Does that veil take away our agency? If we had one desire and the veil causes another then it follows that the Fathers plan takes away our agency. In my view the plan must not take away agency. So the Father will keep us in the plan until that day when we are fully aware of our spirit and we can make an informed choice about the flesh and the spirit. Now some are born and live 20 years, others live 40 years, others 100 years, a few 500 years. Why would the Father have a plan that allows some a few years to come to Him and others receive centuries? Can it be that the plan has a mechanism to allow all sufficient time to make a fully informed decision? I think it does.

On the day when we fully realize who we are and fully acquire the desire of our spirit I see everyone of us choosing to return to Father.

Franktalk wrote:FF,

When we are born do we know about God? Or do we learn about God from others around us? If we look at the creation do we have the ability to see the power of God?

God made the universe for us to live in the flesh. For what purpose did He make the universe? We were already with God in heaven, then why cast us here? If the Father knew some would not come back to Him then why send anyone to this place? If God can do anything why did He come up with a plan that allowed the spirits He loved to burn in hell for eternity? If God is so smart and beyond our understanding why did he come up with a plan that does not fit His will for all to return? Is it possible that His plan does His will and accomplishes His goals but it is us that can't see His ways?

I can't believe this! You haven't paid attention to a thing I've said. You keep asking the same questions over and over. Maybe with a twist, but the same. I've answered already. Read Chapter 42 in Alma, oh, that's right, I posted it for you. Perhaps you missed it, or didn't believe it, one of the two. Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42, get it? I see no point in carrying on with this endless back and forth.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. This is the loving God you believe in and his plan. He made it so man can be saved, if they choose to and repent.

The only difference between you and me is that I would change "if" to "when" in your statement.

This is the loving God you believe in and His plan. He made it so man can be saved, when they choose to repent.

You're under the assumption that all will repent, so it is still...IF! You still don't get it.

jo1952 wrote:

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: 22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. This is the loving God you believe in and his plan. He made it so man can be saved, if they choose to and repent.

The only difference between you and me is that I would change "if" to "when" in your statement.

This is the loving God you believe in and His plan. He made it so man can be saved, when they choose to repent.

Why would any of us have ever agreed to come here if we did not desire to be able to return to Father? Our desires transcend our existence in the flesh. This is only a part of our eternal existence. Would we have desired to come here and fail? Do we desire our own cessation? I think not. God is patient and long-suffering; His purposes will not fail. His purpose for us is to return to Him. We would never have decided to come here for the purpose of failing. The veil causes us to forget; but only while we are in the flesh which is where our overcoming needs to take place. Our spirit's desire was not to fail; the flesh can become a stumbling block to our eternal desire and purpose. But it can't cause us to fail because God's purpose is the same as ours....or should I say that our purpose is the same as God's; to be able to get out of here and back to Father. It is not a question of if; it is a question of when.

You haven't read my posts either, evidently. Or you refuse to believe them. I mean it comes right out of the scriptures you claim to believe. Weird!

Freedom fighter, you are relying on the plain written word of God. Good for you. We are commanded by God to rely on what is written in his holy scriptures.

This other stuff is wildly contradictory.

freedomfighter wrote:I can't believe this! You haven't paid attention to a thing I've said. You keep asking the same questions over and over. Maybe with a twist, but the same. I've answered already. Read Chapter 42 in Alma, oh, that's right, I posted it for you. Perhaps you missed it, or didn't believe it, one of the two. Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42 Read Chapter 42, get it? I see no point in carrying on with this endless back and forth.

freedomfighter wrote:You're under the assumption that all will repent, so it is still...IF! You still don't get it.

freedomfighter wrote:You haven't read my posts either, evidently. Or you refuse to believe them. I mean it comes right out of the scriptures you claim to believe. Weird!

FF the irony in your statements is ironic. Rather than trying to prove your point, just be patient. Listen to what is being shared and ponder these things for a long time.


It's quite simple. We are cast out. Away from God's presence is Hell, physically and spiritually. A lone and dreary wilderness. We live in a Telestial sphere. Three degrees away. Adam, Adam, Adam. Knock Knock Knock. We live amongst " liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie." The Holy Spirit will visit us here. If we obey, we will receive more. "These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial." We can obey His Voice which will come from The Way. Have you received the Holy Ghost? Are you receiving and entertaining Angels? Should you be seeking further light and knowledge? (these are rhetorical questions)

If you or I cannot bear His presence now, what makes you think we can bear it after we die? Do we have to change while in this mortal probation? Become new creations? New creatures? Why would that change necessarily have to take place while here in probation?

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Are not the inhabitants of this world numerous as the "stars in the firmament, or as the sand upon the seashore?" Will we not receive what deserve? Can we go where God and Christ dwell [right now]? So if we don't prove ourselves while in probation do we receive "worlds without end?" Are we not "cast out" from their presence? See here we go again… We are cast out. Away from God's presence is Hell, physically and spiritually. A lone and dreary wilderness. We live in a Telestial sphere. Three degrees away. Adam, Adam, Adam. Knock Knock Knock. We live amongst " liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie." The Holy Spirit will visit us here. If we obey, we will receive more. "These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial." We can obey His Voice which will come from The Way.

Glory to God!

EDIT: to add [right now] to avoid confusion with eventually yes.

Franktalk wrote:

e-eye wrote: God did not make us come here nor does he make us go back to him,we were and are able to choose. Personally I think we were able to also choose to become his children when we were intelligences. If we chose him we chose his plan and thus agreed to the possibilities of the end result. God doesn't force anyone to follow him, trials come upon the just and unjust "we chose this plan" it's what we do with it.

You are right. We all chose to come here. Just how many of us chose to come here and spend eternity in hell? I would say none. So our desire and our agency was to return to the Father after going through the flesh. But in the plan a veil is placed on us. Does that veil take away our agency? If we had one desire and the veil causes another then it follows that the Fathers plan takes away our agency. In my view the plan must not take away agency. So the Father will keep us in the plan until that day when we are fully aware of our spirit and we can make an informed choice about the flesh and the spirit. Now some are born and live 20 years, others live 40 years, others 100 years, a few 500 years. Why would the Father have a plan that allows some a few years to come to Him and others receive centuries? Can it be that the plan has a mechanism to allow all sufficient time to make a fully informed decision? I think it does.


On the day when we fully realize who we are and fully acquire the desire of our spirit I see everyone of us choosing to return to Father.

It doesn't take away our free agency if we chose the plan, and part of that plan was to forget everything before we came here. I believe that was the case knowing we would have to learn or "remember" what we once knew and gain more knowledge. We may call things unfair here because we can't remember choosing to come here but I think we had a good idea of what will happen by our choices. Did we not rejoice when the plan was presented? The risk must have been worth the great reward and I think many will be pleased with the final result and those who are cast out won't be surprised.

You raise some good questions I am excited to one day have the veil taken completely from my eyes to learn of all these great mysteries and until then I am trying to learn what I can little by little.

cayenne wrote:Freedom fighter, you are relying on the plain written word of God. Good for you. We are commanded by God to rely on what is written in his holy scriptures.

This other stuff is wildly contradictory.

You are right the vast majority of people will see the obvious message in scripture. But is it the message that leads to salvation or is it the one that delays our return to the Father? I am sure you are surrounded by people who interpret the scriptures the way you do. But are you correct? The real message in scripture can only be found by spiritual discernment. The surface reading has little to do with the spiritual understanding. It was Peter who told us about how difficult it is to get the real message from the scriptures. And since he had the keys we should pay attention to what he says.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If indeed you are right about the plain written word why did Peter say it is hard to be understood? Could it be that the plain simple understanding is not correct and a more deep understanding is required? Since what FF has been writing about is the plain simple surface understanding are you willing to be wrong? Could it be that those who settle on the surface layer are the ones who are unlearned and wrest with the scriptures. My view allows me to love my fellow man and accept the love of God and His tender mercies on all men. It allows me not to judge but accept the will of God and trust that He will find a way to save all. Does that sound like Christ? Loving all and not willing to judge. Or does an understanding that condemns most to eternal burning sound like Jesus? Since I do not judge how is God going to judge me? Whereas those who do judge others to hell will have their own judgement cast upon themselves. That sounds like destruction.

The day will come when it is most important for you not to judge. In that day I hope you find the message that i have found.

e-eye wrote: You raise some good questions I am excited to one day have the veil taken completely from my eyes to learn of all these great mysteries and until then I am trying to learn what I can little by little.

Good for you. You can have the veil taken away for moments while still in the flesh. That goal should be the one we really try to achieve.

Franktalk wrote:

cayenne wrote:Freedom fighter, you are relying on the plain written word of God. Good for you. We are commanded by God to rely on what is written in his holy scriptures.

This other stuff is wildly contradictory.

You are right the vast majority of people will see the obvious message in scripture. But is it the message that leads to salvation or is it the one that delays our return to the Father? I am sure you are surrounded by people who interpret the scriptures the way you do. But are you correct? The real message in scripture can only be found by spiritual discernment. The surface reading has little to do with the spiritual understanding. It was Peter who told us about how difficult it is to get the real message from the scriptures. And since he had the keys we should pay attention to what he says.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If indeed you are right about the plain written word why did Peter say it is hard to be understood? Could it be that the plain simple understanding is not correct and a more deep understanding is required? Since what FF has been writing about is the plain simple surface understanding are you willing to be wrong? Could it be that those who settle on the surface layer are the ones who are unlearned and wrest with the scriptures. My view allows me to love my fellow man and accept the love of God and His tender mercies on all men. It allows me not to judge but accept the will of God and trust that He will find a way to save all. Does that sound like Christ? Loving all and not willing to judge. Or does an understanding that condemns most to eternal burning sound like Jesus? Since I do not judge how is God going to judge me? Whereas those who do judge others to hell will have their own judgement cast upon themselves. That sounds like destruction.

The day will come when it is most important for you not to judge. In that day I hope you find the message that i have found.

I try to never judge unless it is righteous judgement. Righteous judgement is based on truth and is part of knowing God. This is how we have righteous judges on earth. God has appointed priesthood holders for example to watch over the priesthood. This is why.....etc

All I am saying is that everyone has a choice. Not every one loves God the same way. Those who love God all the way will be comfortable being with him, those that do not will not. Some things in scripture as Peter says are hard to understand (he said some, not all) and the reason is because the people have hardened their hearts against plain truth. If a person likes to lie, it will be 'hard' for them to understand not to lie, and yet that to a righteous soul is easily understood.

yes, there are many layers of understanding in scripture, as long as each layer builds on another layer, and does not contradict it, we have truth. I am surprised this is even an issue considering the many places in scripture that make it clear that all mankind will not wind up in the same heaven. This is not surface reading, this is in depth comparison. This is not God's fault man chooses to love him less than fully, it is ours, and he lets us choose.

On the other hand the Devil wants to make that choice for us, and force our hand for his own gain. This is basic knowledge of the plan of salvation. This is spoken of throughout scripture, and among the prophets.

For example, men like Ted Bundy was a mass murderer. This is righteous judgement to call him that for that is the truth of what he was. Men like him are not going to be sitting with Jesus and the great prophets come judgement. Neither is Cain, or Hitler, etc.....by their fruits ye shall know them. Righteous judgement gives the ability to have wisdom not to trust or keep company with evil people. We must judge and discern the right from the wrong and who to make merry with. This has nothing to do with lack of love. It is truth, and truth is love, and we are to love God (truth) more than all.

plus franktalk, the foundation we have is in scripture, in which God himself commanded us to rely on what was written. Whenever someone comes along claiming superior knowledge, all one has to do is compare to the written word. As long as it builds on the scriptures, you have a great thing, but when it contradicts, we have a bad thing. So far on this one subject your words seem very contradictory to writen scripture. I think many of your other posts in other threads have some great stuff, but on this thread they seem very opposite of the scriptures. I don't call that higher knowledge, I call it lesser knowledge. Instead of building on the scripture, it gets taken away.

Just my 2 cents on what I have read from you thus far on this thread.

cayenne wrote: I try to never judge unless it is righteous judgement. Righteous judgement is based on truth and is part of knowing God. This is how we have righteous judges on earth. God has appointed priesthood holders for example to watch over the priesthood. This is why.....etc

There is no such thing as righteous judgement except that which comes from God. This is a stumbling block placed in scripture for those under the Law to think they are justified by God. It is negated by the first two commandments and the warning that we are not to judge.

Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

If you are righteous please explain how this verse does not apply to you?

And what about forgiveness?

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

The term seventy times seven is code for until there is no more sin. It is described in Daniel 9.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seventy weeks is seventy times seven. At the end there is no sin.

And the Lord's prayer tells us to forgive even if people don't ask for forgiveness.

cayenne wrote:Some things in scripture as Peter says are hard to understand (he said some, not all) and the reason is because the people have hardened their hearts against plain truth.

Please provide scriptural references saying that plain truth is in the scriptures. From what I know the scriptures can not be understood unless they are discerned spiritually.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Do you believe that my views of the scriptures are foolishness?

cayenne wrote:plus franktalk, the foundation we have is in scripture, in which God himself commanded us to rely on what was written. Whenever someone comes along claiming superior knowledge, all one has to do is compare to the written word. As long as it builds on the scriptures, you have a great thing, but when it contradicts, we have a bad thing. So far on this one subject your words seem very contradictory to writen scripture. I think many of your other posts in other threads have some great stuff, but on this thread they seem very opposite of the scriptures. I don't call that higher knowledge, I call it lesser knowledge. Instead of building on the scripture, it gets taken away.

Just my 2 cents on what I have read from you thus far on this thread.

The scriptures point to a meat understanding and also a milk understanding. Can you point to a scripture and tell me the milk understanding and also the meat understanding? Just describe to me a passage with both understandings. And I am not talking about prophecy versus historical narrative.

No offense, but I have dealt with a number of persons such as yourself, and it is the same pattern.

From your past posts it is obvious that you believe you have some higher understanding, and you will not budge. Neither will I. You want milk vs meat examples, how can I give them to you when you don't even understand the milk in these things we are discussing? The most basic scriptural structures you contradict, and you think that is higher knowledge? It is almost a morph with Catholic tradition mixed with some MMP JJ dewy stuff.

and yes God expects all of us to judge between right and wrong (you know pre-school stuff) When others do wrong, we must be able to discern the repentant from the unrepentant.

So instead of going on and on for many many pages going back and forth throwing quotes at each other, I prefer to leave this one alone.

cayenne wrote: and yes God expects all of us to judge between right and wrong (you know pre-school stuff) When others do wrong, we must be able to discern the repentant from the unrepentant.

Over the ages many though they were doing the work of God.

Act_7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Even though Saul took innocent blood he was not held accountable in the eyes of God. Makes you wonder, at least it did with me.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:

Franktalk wrote:FF,

Do you believe that Father can do His will? No, because he cannot and will not interfere with our agency he gave us. He wants us all to come back, we choose whether we will or not. His will is for all men to come unto Christ, repent and be born again, or they end up in a state of torment. Christ's own words.

You prove my point once again, Frank. I have said no such thing. I have said that man under his own will and agency and desire, with real intent...can repent and be saved. Why do you offend me by lying. ....

If our agency is to grow crops yet God stops the rain has God interfered with our agency?
If our agency is to be loved by women yet we are born deformed and ugly has God interfered with our agency?
If we work hard and fill our barns to satisfy our agency and God takes our life, has God interfered with our agency?
If we wish to see color yet we are born blind has God interfered with our agency?

Please answer these simple ones before I give you the hard ones.

None of these examples are an example of moral agency.

agency to follow Christ
agency to choose the right
agency to pay our tithing
agency to repent
agency to...

Epistemology wrote: agency to follow Christ
agency to choose the right
agency to pay our tithing
agency to repent
agency to...

Agency to seek who we are or not
Agency to seek God or not
Agency to follow light or darkness
Agency to force our will on others or not
Agency to form our own reality or truth
Agency to prioritize all that is around us.
Agency to give up our will and give to another

Franktalk wrote:

cayenne wrote: I try to never judge unless it is righteous judgement. Righteous judgement is based on truth and is part of knowing God. This is how we have righteous judges on earth. God has appointed priesthood holders for example to watch over the priesthood. This is why.....etc

There is no such thing as righteous judgement except that which comes from God. This is a stumbling block placed in scripture for those under the Law to think they are justified by God. It is negated by the first two commandments and the warning that we are not to judge.

Read this and see for yourself that your words are not totally corroborated by scripture:

Proverbs 31:9
9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Psalms 67:4
4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Deuteronomy 1:16
16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Doctrine and Covenants 11:12
12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

Alma 41:14
14 Therefore,...see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually;...

Alma 50:39
39 Behold, it came to pass that the son of Nephihah was appointed to fill the judgment-seat, in the stead of his father; yea, he was appointed chief judge and governor over the people, with an oath and sacred ordinance to judge righteously, and to keep the peace and the freedom of the people, and to grant unto them their sacred privileges to worship the Lord their God, yea, to support and maintain the cause of God all his days, and to bring the wicked to justice according to their crime. Just how will he accomplish this if not done by righteous judgement?



Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: So if these folks are not righteous, how are they then saved? See the dilemma?

If you are righteous please explain how this verse does not apply to you? This issue has been addressed several times, yet you come back with the same questions.

And what about forgiveness?

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

The term seventy times seven is code for until there is no more sin. It is described in Daniel 9.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, how is this done? and to make reconciliation for iniquity, how is this done? and to bring in everlasting righteousness, how is this accomplished? and to seal up the vision and prophecy, to end (seal) the vision of Daniel and to anoint the most Holy. pretty plaing

Seventy weeks is seventy times seven. At the end there is no sin.

And the Lord's prayer tells us to forgive even if people don't ask for forgiveness. This is true but has little to do with the justice of God, of which, has been explained to you thoroughly.

cayenne wrote:Some things in scripture as Peter says are hard to understand (he said some, not all) and the reason is because the people have hardened their hearts against plain truth.

Please provide scriptural references saying that plain truth is in the scriptures. 2 Nephi 32:3, Ex. 4:15


From what I know the scriptures can not be understood unless they are discerned spiritually. This is correct.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Do you believe that my views of the scriptures are foolishness? Not foolishness, merely different, without total and complete scriptural corroboration.

Sorry, Cayenne. I jumped onto this because of the replies I had already given and seem to have been ignored.

Franktalk, you still haven't told me why you do not use scriptures from the Book of Mormon. Article 8: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Yet you don't use the BoM.
Is there a message in there someplace. You seem to cling to the bible. I'm curious why.
In some instances I have shown you JS's translation of some verses, where the full meaning had been made obscure.
We must ask God what any one scripture means, not tell Him what they should mean.

The Book of Mormon is a great book. It is permeated with so much wonderful...........................stuff. It's like watching a movie, points stand out with clarity and simple understanding, with the Holy Ghost at one's side.

We learn about the Justice of God and how it works.
We learn about the Restoration of body and spirit, including the good and bad of it.
We learn how Christ thinks, His characteristics and how He responds to a variety of circumstance man gets into, whether by His word, or through someone's experience.
We learn about the Lord's vineyard and how He deals with it. How He becomes distraught and makes changes in order to create a vineyard that is fruitful and good.
We learn about a space between death and the resurrection. Where the spirits go until the day of their resurrection.
We learn, of whom, will be raised into a Glorious, Magnificent kingdom, and those that will not because of unbelief.
We learn that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be at the Judgement Bar, along with other great souls.
We read about great destruction, calamities and death wrought by the Hand of God, here on this continent when the Savior died.
And much, much more.

freedomfighter wrote:Franktalk, you still haven't told me why you do not use scriptures from the Book of Mormon. Article 8: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. Yet you don't use the BoM.
Is there a message in there someplace. You seem to cling to the bible. I'm curious why.
In some instances I have shown you JS's translation of some verses, where the full meaning had been made obscure.
We must ask God what any one scripture means, not tell Him what they should mean.

The Book of Mormon is a great book. It is permeated with so much wonderful...........................stuff. It's like watching a movie, points stand out with clarity and simple understanding, with the Holy Ghost at one's side.

2 Nephi 29:
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

freedomfighter wrote:Franktalk, you still haven't told me why you do not use scriptures from the Book of Mormon.

Since the same message is found in both books it does not matter which book I use. The same God inspired both. I have written a few commentaries on various sections of the D and C and posted them on this site. I have quoted Mosiah many times when discussing the ordinances and how they are but a shadow of spiritual events. I am currently rereading the Book of Mormon and will be concentrating on the prophecies. I will also be looking at the structure of the church as set up in scripture.

So like many of your assumptions you are wrong. But maybe you can help. I have been looking for a good electronic copy of the book of Mormon with a good search engine. I use e-sword for the Bible. Is there a similar free download for the Book of Mormon?

Hello franktalk,

>>>So like many of your assumptions you are wrong. But maybe you can help. I have been looking for a good electronic copy of the book of Mormon with a good search engine. I use e-sword for the Bible. Is there a similar free download for the Book of Mormon?<<<

Here is a webpage with the book of Mormon.
http://web.archive.org/web/200805120134 ... oMorm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What I did was I used adobe acrobat (purchased version) to download it and then used the find command in acrobat to search. My pdf version is a little under 3 M if you want me to I can send you a copy.

My response in green.

freedomfighter wrote:

Franktalk wrote:

cayenne wrote: I try to never judge unless it is righteous judgement. Righteous judgement is based on truth and is part of knowing God. This is how we have righteous judges on earth. God has appointed priesthood holders for example to watch over the priesthood. This is why.....etc

There is no such thing as righteous judgement except that which comes from God. This is a stumbling block placed in scripture for those under the Law to think they are justified by God. It is negated by the first two commandments and the warning that we are not to judge.

Read this and see for yourself that your words are not totally corroborated by scripture:

Proverbs 31:9
9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.


In speaking about Kings. This was a warning given by a Mother to her son on how to act as a King. But what is key to this understanding comes from:

Pro 31:5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

This is the temporal law as handed down by Moses. In the temporal law it is required to judge others. We are to learn that the temporal law is not how we should live. The temporal law has never saved anyone and never will. We must move past the temporal law in order to understand the laws as written on our hearts.

Psalms 67:4
4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

This refers to the judgement by God not man.

Deuteronomy 1:16
16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Temporal law

Doctrine and Covenants 11:12
12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

Since the LDS church rejected Zion and to live by spiritual law under the direct direction of Jesus, the temporal law was given to the church. So the best that the members could do was to judge each other as best they could by following the Spirit. The learning is the same learning that the Jews must go through. That temporal laws do not work and there is a much better way to live.

Alma 41:14
14 Therefore,...see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually;...

In verse 3 it tells us that this whole section is dealing with works which is part of the temporal law. In verse 11-13 it tells us that the restoration is not of the temporal law.

11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.
12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

It states that all men are in a state of nature and contrary to the nature of God. This is the carnal state of man, the natural man. We were with God in heaven and therefore without sin. This is the restoration. But while in the carnal state we act contrary to the state we used to be in while in heaven. If we walk in the Spirit then we rule over our natural man but there are few that overcome the world. If we all walked in the Spirit then a judge would have no one to judge. All conflict goes away between each soul without a need for a judge. This is the lesson taught by Christ.

Mat_5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Most people do not know what is being said here. A spiritual man will give all to the world and hold onto nothing. He gives up everything. If we have a conflict over stuff we are to hand over all we have and remove ourself from the conflict. If we appear before a carnal judge then we can expect carnal punishment.

What is being talked about in Alma 41 is the difference between the carnal state and the spiritual state of man. The sad part is that men are in a state of being carnal and will be brought before a judge. But a judge is judged by God. So great care must be exercised by a judge even in this carnal world. The works of the judge will be examined closely. The point is in a restored Zion there is no need for a judge. Those who walk in the Spirit do not need a judge. But most will ignore that message and focus on a need for righteous judgement.

Alma 50:39
39 Behold, it came to pass that the son of Nephihah was appointed to fill the judgment-seat, in the stead of his father; yea, he was appointed chief judge and governor over the people, with an oath and sacred ordinance to judge righteously, and to keep the peace and the freedom of the people, and to grant unto them their sacred privileges to worship the Lord their God, yea, to support and maintain the cause of God all his days, and to bring the wicked to justice according to their crime. Just how will he accomplish this if not done by righteous judgement?


Again temporal law which is a necessary step on the plan of salvation. But we should all be moving forward towards the restoration of all things.

Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: So if these folks are not righteous, how are they then saved? See the dilemma?

No dilemma, the atonement of Christ allows us to be clean of sin so we can have the Holy Spirit come to us. Then over time we change into the spiritual man and start the spiritual walk.

If you are righteous please explain how this verse does not apply to you? This issue has been addressed several times, yet you come back with the same questions.

And what about forgiveness?

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

The term seventy times seven is code for until there is no more sin. It is described in Daniel 9.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, how is this done? and to make reconciliation for iniquity, how is this done? and to bring in everlasting righteousness, how is this accomplished? and to seal up the vision and prophecy, to end (seal) the vision of Daniel and to anoint the most Holy. pretty plaing

Seventy weeks is seventy times seven. At the end there is no sin.

And the Lord's prayer tells us to forgive even if people don't ask for forgiveness. This is true but has little to do with the justice of God, of which, has been explained to you thoroughly.

I think it has everything to do with the justice of God. It is God who will turn the universe upside down so we can be restored to who we are. And then we require no judge and no justice.

cayenne wrote:Some things in scripture as Peter says are hard to understand (he said some, not all) and the reason is because the people have hardened their hearts against plain truth.

Please provide scriptural references saying that plain truth is in the scriptures. 2 Nephi 32:3, Ex. 4:15


You used 2 Nephi 32:3, this was dealing with people already on the spiritual walk and talking with the angels. I agree that these people may read the scriptures with no error but for the rest of us the plain truth is the carnal understanding. Or the understanding under the temporal law. If someone reads the scriptures and sees the temporal law as the way to live then they are not reading the scriptures in spiritual discernment.

From what I know the scriptures can not be understood unless they are discerned spiritually. This is correct.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Do you believe that my views of the scriptures are foolishness? Not foolishness, merely different, without total and complete scriptural corroboration.

We disagree.

Sorry, Cayenne. I jumped onto this because of the replies I had already given and seem to have been ignored.

sleepyhead wrote:Hello franktalk,

>>>So like many of your assumptions you are wrong. But maybe you can help. I have been looking for a good electronic copy of the book of Mormon with a good search engine. I use e-sword for the Bible. Is there a similar free download for the Book of Mormon?<<<

Here is a webpage with the book of Mormon.
http://web.archive.org/web/200805120134 ... oMorm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What I did was I used adobe acrobat (purchased version) to download it and then used the find command in acrobat to search. My pdf version is a little under 3 M if you want me to I can send you a copy.

Thanks for the info. I already have a pdf version of the book. I was hoping to find an easier way rather than use the pdf. Do you have e-sword? If not you can download for free.

Franktalk wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:Franktalk, you still haven't told me why you do not use scriptures from the Book of Mormon.

Since the same message is found in both books it does not matter which book I use. Not true. We are told the BoM contains plain and precious parts taken out of the bible. Sorry. Maybe you've never be told this, but hey, it's in the book. SEE BELOW. The same God inspired both. I have written a few commentaries on various sections of the D and C and posted them on this site. I have quoted Mosiah many times when discussing the ordinances and how they are but a shadow of spiritual events. I am currently rereading the Book of Mormon and will be concentrating on the prophecies. I will also be looking at the structure of the church as set up in scripture.

So like many of your assumptions you are wrong. But maybe you can help. I have been looking for a good electronic copy of the book of Mormon with a good search engine. I use e-sword for the Bible. Is there a similar free download for the Book of Mormon?

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://bookofmormononline.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1 Nephi 13:34
34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb. This is the BoM.

1 Nephi 19:3
3 And after I had made these plates by way of commandment, I, Nephi, received a commandment that the ministry and the prophecies, the more plain and precious parts of them, should be written upon these plates; and that the things which were written should be kept for the instruction of my people, who should possess the land, and also for other wise purposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord. This is the BoM

1 Nephi 13:26
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

1 Nephi 13:32
32 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen. This is why we have the BoM.