Snuffer & PTHG

[Franktalk]

FF,

I will leave you with a few thoughts. First of all what is the burning in hell? Can it be viewed as the burning desire to return to Father? If you think it is actually burning flesh then what of the spirit? The spirit can not burn as the flesh. And why is it that hell is always described in terms of the flesh suffering? To me hell seems a lot like the earth.

Let me ask some more questions. We come to this earth as a natural man. Then in baptism the natural man can be separated from the spiritual man. It is the spiritual man that can walk with God and overcome the world. The natural man does not have the ability to leave the earth. Thus he stays for eternity. Have you considered what this all means? Have you taken these truths and applied them to the scriptures?

[freedomforall]

FF,

I will leave you with a few thoughts. First of all what is the burning in hell? Can it be viewed as the burning desire to return to Father? If you think it is actually burning flesh then what of the spirit? The spirit can not burn as the flesh. And why is it that hell is always described in terms of the flesh suffering? To me hell seems a lot like the earth.

Let me ask some more questions. We come to this earth as a natural man. Then in baptism the natural man can be separated from the spiritual man. It is the spiritual man that can walk with God and overcome the world. The natural man does not have the ability to leave the earth. Thus he stays for eternity. Have you considered what this all means? Have you taken these truths and applied them to the scriptures?

what is the burning in hell? Answer--it is the agonizing knowledge that one lived an evil life. They will experience agony, pain, intense guilt, deep shame and torment. This is what Christ means when he says the wicked will suffer even as I.

Can it be viewed as the burning desire to return to Father? Answer--No. One has to be cleansed from all sin, and become a seeker of truth and righteousness. A wicked person could not stand the Glory of God, they would shrink before him and wish to be elsewhere. Through the restoration, man will be placed in a realm where he will be comfortable, because evil will be raised to evil, righteousness to righteousness, Godliness to Godliness. There is no other way.

The natural man does not have the ability to leave the earth. Not so, because the natural man will be raised to a state of not being around God, but will be in a kingdom of much lesser glory.

Have you considered what this all means? Answer--Absolutely. When we learn what the restoration actually entails, it helps us to decide what course of action we want to take, and what glory we would rather be in. A wicked man will never be in God's realm. No unclean thing can enter into God's house. God's house is a house of order and cleanliness.

Have you taken these truths and applied them to the scriptures? Answer--Absolutely. Actually it is the other way around. It is scripture that made me aware of how the restoration works and why. And I deem it just. I also believe that God will give every person the least amount of punishment the law...His Laws, require. But He cannot put someone where they have not lived in life. In other words, a wicked person cannot be placed with the righteous, God will not do that. The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been since the fall of Adam. Only through repentance, being born again, changed from evil to good desires, and the cleansing power of the Atonement can a person be able to dwell with Father.

[hyloglyph]

For those who are chatting about various other things-- proceed.

This is my day off and I was reading through some of SteveF's commentary and I just find it so tedious and lacking in strength. The whole thing is lacking in anything solid.

Here's a sample (there are many like this):
(the word Gentiles was replaced with LDS church to prove that it won't make sense)

steveF wrote:
But since you care about facts, lets go back to verse 6 & 7. Verse 6 in under your interpretation says,
“And blessed are the [LDS members], because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.” And, “Behold, because of [the LDS member's] belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto [LDS members], that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.” (verse 7)

This interpretation is factually not possible given the text. It says LDS members are blessed because of their belief in God, and because of this belief in God, the truth will come unto them. But for the restored church to exist and have members in the first place, the truth needs to be made known unto that group of people first so that they can convert to the truth and establish that Church. Without the truth being made known first, there can be no restoration and establishment of the LDS Church in the first place. Therefore it is impossible for the whole group of LDS members to exist as a restored church, prior to the truth coming unto them, by definition.

How is it not possible?

*The LDS are blessed because they believe in the Son and in the Holy Ghost that witnesses of the Father and the Son.

*Because of this, the fullness of truth will be made known to the LDS in the latter days.

Very powerful. I believe that!

But why even bring it up because even if it did not make any sense at all as SteveF claims it wouldn't prove anything anyways because Denver does not make the absolute claim that every single word gentile=lds (though it is my belief that many BoM references do mean LDS)





SteveF, with all due respect, I am not seeing anything substantial. The whole body of your postings is...well I don't know what to call it, I guess I am not seeing a real powerful rebuttal or a response to anything except for something maybe imagined or projected into PTHG? I could cite more examples like this.

But I don't want to be unkind. I think it's possible that there is something I am missing?

[freedomforall]

A little more on restoration. I purposely shorten verses for bringing out key points, like Alma speaking to his son. Go to ALMA 41 for complete text.

Alma the Son of Alma
Chapter 41

In the Resurrection men come forth to a state of endless happiness or endless misery—Wickedness never was happiness—Carnal men are without God in the world—Every person receives again in the Restoration the characteristics and attributes acquired in mortality. About 74 B.C.

1 ...some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing. Changed the wording or meaning.

2 ...the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself. Not only our bodies, but all emotions and desires, good or bad will be restored.

3 ...it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

4 ...if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other— Isn't this straight forward?

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good...to...good; and the other...evil...to...evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh. We reap that which we sow.

6 ...on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness. What a great blessing.

7 These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil. One's own agency.

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved. Straight forward.

9 ....

10 Do not suppose...that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

11 ...all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness. As a man thinketh, so is he.

12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature? Evil cannot be raised to righteousness.

13 O, ...this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

14 ...Therefore...see that you are merciful...deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again. A wonderful promise.

15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all. A caution.

Romans 12:21
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Straight forward.

Alma 42:27 (27–28)
27 Therefore, ...whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.
28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.

[freedomforall]

More on the unquenchable fire.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:18
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
Compare 18 with 16, 17
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

It is very clear that we will suffer...IF...we do not repent and desire righteousness the rest of our days. Remember the restoration?

Mosiah 27:31
31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

Guilt, anguish, shame and torment due to sin still remaining within will keep them from wanting to look God in the eye. Compare with next two verses.

Mosiah 2:38
38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

Mosiah 3:25
25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

This is why the carnal, devilish and natural man cannot be placed in a state of righteousness. We have to, through the Atonement, have evil rooted out of us and replaced with desire for good the rest of our days. Then are we prepared to dwell with God, according to the plan of the Restoration.

In other words, abhor sin.

Romans 12:
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

2 Ne. 4:31
31 O Lord, wilt thou redeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin? We must work to the end that we feel the same way as did Nephi. Here was a great Prophet lamenting over the sins that easily beset him. And he was feeling hurt by it

Alma 13:12
12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God. Shouldn't these things be our goal, to be sanctified by the Holy Ghost, our garments washed white, becoming pure and spotless and to abhor sin? This is exactly what the meaning of being born again truly means. Our desires for righteousness carry us through and then we can enter into the rest of the Lord. Even in this life.

[Franktalk]

I tend to concentrate on other verses.

Isa_63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I see the love of God and view all of scripture through the lense of God's love for us. I also view the scriptures as fulfilling the will of God. So I view each verse in this context. If it is God's will that all will be saved then all will be saved. We just need to see how He does that. So I see verses that speak of judgement but I see all of that as temporary judgement. The higher will of God must come through and His love must win over the hearts of men. So with the help of the Holy Spirit I have asked many times to show me how the love of God works in the entire plan of salvation. I push everything aside for the moment and just stay fixed on the love of God and His mercy. God has showed me how much of it works. He (our God) will not take away our free agency but He sure does set the stage for us to come to Him. He will turn the universe on its head to save a soul. This I know to be true.

I have shown a few samples of the scriptures showing the love of God and His will concerning us. Others focus on judgement.

[freedomforall]

I tend to concentrate on other verses.

You posted Isa_63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. You forgot to read the very next verse. Here is your verse in context:

8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 ¶But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
This changes the whole meaning, does it not?

You posted Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: What are the key points in this verse? By the way, it is a reference from the word deliverer.

And this one, also a reference from the same word:

Alma 11:40 (37–41)
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
38 ...
39 ...
40 ...he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.
41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

Isa. 59:20
20 ¶And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.

You posted 1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Here is the actual verse Joseph Smith had corrected:

JST 1 Tim. 2:4 (Appendix)
4 Who is willing to have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth which is in Christ Jesus, who is the Only Begotten Son of God, and ordained to be a Mediator between God and man; who is one God, and hath power over all men.

Here is a reference from the word "saved" in that verse in 1 Tim: Note that it is also in he bible.

Ezek. 18:23 (23–24)
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 ¶But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see the love of God and view all of scripture through the lense of God's love for us. I also view the scriptures as fulfilling the will of God. So I view each verse in this context. If it is God's will that all will be saved then all will be saved. We just need to see how He does that. So I see verses that speak of judgement but I see all of that as temporary judgement. The higher will of God must come through and His love must win over the hearts of men. So with the help of the Holy Spirit I have asked many times to show me how the love of God works in the entire plan of salvation. I push everything aside for the moment and just stay fixed on the love of God and His mercy. God has showed me how much of it works. He (our God) will not take away our free agency but He sure does set the stage for us to come to Him. He will turn the universe on its head to save a soul. This I know to be true.

I have shown a few samples of the scriptures showing the love of God and His will concerning us. Others focus on judgement.

Accepting only parts of scripture and not the whole, is like only getting a box of chocolates cut in half in the middle. We must read the pros and the cons in order to gain a full knowledge of God's plan and how it operates.

[Franktalk]

I have shared my view of the mercy of God and how the love of God manifest in the plan of salvation. I see the entire plan as a way for the Father to achieve his will yet not override the free agency of man. I believe the view I have of the entire plan of salvation is the same held by Paul as described in Romans. I believe that Joseph Smith also shared this same knowledge of the plan of salvation. But in both Paul and Joseph Smith you must dig into the scriptures in order to find the message. But many just read the surface of the scriptures and let others tell them the limits of what may be found in them.

I have shared my understanding of the plan of salvation in which all spirits are saved over the ages. Because the mechanisms used in the plan are not widely accepted I have been called many names and told that my view comes from the devil. Some people hold to eternal hell and suffering yet in almost the same breath describe the love of God. Somehow the God that loves them is also willing to burn souls in hell for eternity. The same God that they say can do anything can't figure out a way to save all souls. I reject the limits placed on God.

The scriptures are like the prophets. You can find what is in your own heart.

Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

If someone comes to the scriptures in judgement of others they will see a god that Judges just like they do. In this they have made a god of judgement and they find him. But that god of judgement is an idol created by the mind of the seeker. The God I know uses judgement and punishment as a tool to save souls. The God I know turns the hearts of men back to Him. Just who can withstand the will of the Father? Over the ages I will say no one. Yet some believe souls are tortured for those ages and given no way out. I think God provides a path back to Him no matter where you are.

[freedomforall]

I have shared my view of the mercy of God and how the love of God manifest in the plan of salvation. I see the entire plan as a way for the Father to achieve his will yet not override the free agency of man. I believe the view I have of the entire plan of salvation is the same held by Paul as described in Romans. I believe that Joseph Smith also shared this same knowledge of the plan of salvation. But in both Paul and Joseph Smith you must dig into the scriptures in order to find the message. But many just read the surface of the scriptures and let others tell them the limits of what may be found in them.

I have shared my understanding of the plan of salvation in which all spirits are saved over the ages. Because the mechanisms used in the plan are not widely accepted I have been called many names and told that my view comes from the devil. Some people hold to eternal hell and suffering yet in almost the same breath describe the love of God. Somehow the God that loves them is also willing to burn souls in hell for eternity. The same God that they say can do anything can't figure out a way to save all souls. I reject the limits placed on God.

The scriptures are like the prophets. You can find what is in your own heart.

Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

If someone comes to the scriptures in judgement of others they will see a god that Judges just like they do. In this they have made a god of judgement and they find him. But that god of judgement is an idol created by the mind of the seeker. The God I know uses judgement and punishment as a tool to save souls. The God I know turns the hearts of men back to Him. Just who can withstand the will of the Father? Over the ages I will say no one. Yet some believe souls are tortured for those ages and given no way out. I think God provides a path back to Him no matter where you are.

That's okay..But did you read the corrections for the verses you quoted? Per your reply here I think not. Now you out and out refuse to believe all of God's word and make statements that he will save everyone wherever they are. Scripture does NOT reflect that notion. Yours appears to be the gospel of Frank. It is certainly not scriptural, you skip some verses and only use that which you think justifies your paradigm. I have proved this time and time again. What more can I say? As a matter of fact, I think all verses used by you come from the bible. Why do you ignore the Book of Mormon. It contains plain and precious parts removed from the bible, yet you don't use them. Again, why?
If you'd rather not comment on the corrections made, it's okay. At least I'll know where you stand, again. God does not, will not and cannot save the unrepentant sinner, the ones that sin incessantly without care, without true repentance...Period. Or he would be made to be a liar. I showed you the plan of the restoration explaining in detail how it works, and now you seem to discard it. How plain can this be? I'm happy you try to look at the bright side, nevertheless, if people do not understand the consequence for sin, they will gain a rude awakening, TOO LATE. For anyone that states they do not sin....well....

[Franktalk]

I tend to concentrate on other verses.

You posted Isa_63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. You forgot to read the very next verse. Here is your verse in context:

8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 ¶But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
This changes the whole meaning, does it not?

FT comment - This only means that God would have to spend more time and effort to save those who were not ready.

You posted Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: What are the key points in this verse? By the way, it is a reference from the word deliverer.

And this one, also a reference from the same word:

Alma 11:40 (37–41)
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
38 ...
39 ...
40 ...he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.
41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

Isa. 59:20
20 ¶And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.

You posted 1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Here is the actual verse Joseph Smith had corrected:

JST 1 Tim. 2:4 (Appendix)
4 Who is willing to have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth which is in Christ Jesus, who is the Only Begotten Son of God, and ordained to be a Mediator between God and man; who is one God, and hath power over all men.

Here is a reference from the word "saved" in that verse in 1 Tim: Note that it is also in he bible.

Ezek. 18:23 (23–24)
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 ¶But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

FT comment - In my view dying is no big deal. It is all part of the plan of salvation. There is NO plan of torment. There is NO plan of punishment with no escape. Are you arguing for a god who hates the souls of men?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have shown a few samples of the scriptures showing the love of God and His will concerning us. Others focus on judgement.

Accepting only parts of scripture and not the whole, is like only getting a box of chocolates cut in half in the middle. We must read the pros and the cons in order to gain a full knowledge of God's plan and how it operates.

In my view there is only one chocolate. I see only the love of God and His desire that all be saved. He will do whatever is required to save each one of us. Where you focus on punishment I focus of the ability of God to turn the hearts of man.

[Franktalk]

That's okay..But did you read the corrections for the verses you quoted?

What you call corrections are a very limited view of the scriptures. I reject your understanding of the scriptures as limited in scope and without the character of God as guiding your understanding. Next you will tell me I am of the Devil because I see the love of God. But you will use a focused tunnel vision of the scriptures to do so. You know the scriptures FF but it is a forest and not a bunch of individual trees.

[freedomforall]

That's okay..But did you read the corrections for the verses you quoted?

What you call corrections are a very limited view of the scriptures. I reject your understanding of the scriptures as limited in scope and without the character of God as guiding your understanding. Next you will tell me I am of the Devil because I see the love of God. But you will use a focused tunnel vision of the scriptures to do so. You know the scriptures FF but it is a forest and not a bunch of individual trees.

That which I have taught you is true, I testify of that. I'm sorry you reject that which is taught in scripture. I'm sorry you refuse all of the light offered within, even the good and bad. I'm sorry you reject my words...words I back up with scripture...scripture you don't want to accept as true, this by your own mouth. I'm sorry that you will not be honest and answer my questions. I have answered yours. You reject truth because of an apparent limited scope. Sad indeed. At least you do know what tunnel vision is, and that is a good start.
Trees are like scriptures, whereas, each one has a message written on it. So why don't you start reading them all? Then you will be able to see the big picture...the forest. You will know where you can tread and where you cannot. Neat, huh? Why wear a blindfold?

God bless you Frankt

[Franktalk]

I'm sorry you refuse all of the light offered within, even the good and bad.

You refer to the scriptures and thus your god as having bad light? My God does not have bad light.

[Franktalk]

FF,

Does the Father love all of us?
Do you a feel that Father wishes all of us to be saved?
Do you believe that Father can do His will?
Do your believe that Father can turn the hearts of man?
Is there anything beyond the abilities of the Father?

My answers are obvious. Yes, yes, yes, yes, no.

Using these as absolutes then please justify your stand on the scriptures showing a weak Father not able to turn the hearts of man.

[freedomforall]

I'm sorry you refuse all of the light offered within, even the good and bad.

You refer to the scriptures and thus your god as having bad light? My God does not have bad light.

Just open your eyes my man. There is a whole new world to see.

God is a God of Love, but He will not allow any unclean into His kingdom. How many more ways does it have to be said before you will finally grasp this truth. Are you reading out of other than the KJV, a shortened version with many verses missing. I, for the life of me cant see how you can miss every verse as it relates to the previous and succeeding verses. Verses get quoted out of context. A man such as yourself, of whom, appears to love scripture refuses to see the entire meaning of them, and for which they apply. Although we are liken scripture to our day, sometimes things said only apply to a certain group or an individual that messed up or did something very special. Come on, Frank. Are you one of the intellectuals that Pres. Packer warned us of.

Boyd K. Packer...stated that the three greatest threats to the church were homosexuals, feminists and intellectuals. "The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement (both of which are relatively new), and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals." (Talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council, May 18, 1993).

Oh, maybe he didn't know what he was talking about. This is the premise of some members, is it not?

[freedomforall]

FF,

Does the Father love all of us? Yes
Do you a feel that Father wishes all of us to be saved? Yes
Do you believe that Father can do His will? No, because he cannot and will not interfere with our agency he gave us. He wants us all to come back, we choose whether we will or not. His will is for all men to come unto Christ, repent and be born again, or they end up in a state of torment. Christ's own words.
Do your believe that Father can turn the hearts of man? He can, but it is Christ and his atoning sacrifice that does this, according to mans desire for righteousness. We have to make the first move. Salvation is not automatic.
Is there anything beyond the abilities of the Father? No, but if you're intimating that he will interfere with our agency, He will not. Yes in that he can create, save those who desire it through repentance and doing good, and other worlds.

My answers are obvious. Yes, yes, yes, yes, no.

Using these as absolutes then please justify your stand on the scriptures showing a weak Father not able to turn the hearts of man.

You prove my point once again, Frank. I have said no such thing. I have said that man under his own will and agency and desire, with real intent...can repent and be saved. Why do you offend me by lying. It is not becoming of you. I would like to challenge anyone to show me where I have said differently. I have profoundly explained the restoration, how we can come to Christ, repent, have sins remitted, be born again, the problem of being a natural man, that he is an enemy to God. Are you purposely putting this light under a bushel so you don't have to face it?
I even showed you from the BoM how we can be perfect in Christ in this life, yet you ignore that and say I reveal a weak Father. At this point, I leave you to suffer your own destiny. Truth is hard to find in your words. Just look at what you said above. Clearly wrong. And that's a fact.
You continue to believe because God loves everyone that He'll save them all. He wants to, this is true, but he cannot because of man's own stupidity and desires for evil. This has been explained in so many ways. Sorry your mind is made up to the contrary. So be it. Amen.

[cayenne]

FF,

Does the Father love all of us?
Do you a feel that Father wishes all of us to be saved?
Do you believe that Father can do His will?
Do your believe that Father can turn the hearts of man?
Is there anything beyond the abilities of the Father?

My answers are obvious. Yes, yes, yes, yes, no.

Using these as absolutes then please justify your stand on the scriptures showing a weak Father not able to turn the hearts of man.

You prove my point once again, Frank. I have said no such thing. I have said that man under his own will and agency and desire, with real intent...can repent and be saved. Why do you offend me by lying. It is not becoming of you. I would like to challenge anyone to show me where I have said differently. I have profoundly explained the restoration, how we can come to Christ, repent, have sins remitted, be born again, the problem of being a natural man, that he is an enemy to God. Are you purposely putting this light under a bushel so you don't have to face it?
I even showed you from the BoM how we can be perfect in Christ in this life, yet you ignore that and say I reveal a weak Father. At this point, I leave you to suffer your own destiny. Truth is hard to find in your words. Just look at what you said above. Clearly wrong. And that's a fact.
You continue to believe because God loves everyone that He'll save them all. He wants to, this is true, but he cannot because of man's own stupidity and desires for evil. This has been explained in so many ways. Sorry your mind is made up to the contrary. So be it. Amen.

I just barely came in on this, and freedom fighter is no doubt correct. God loves all mankind, but we are the one's who choose to love God at various levels, hense various kingdoms.

God will always give us everything IF we will have it, and most choose not to have it. This is why there are few vs many.

God cannot strip the agency of a liar, and make him a truth teller. Only each individual can decide whether they want to be a truth teller, nothing can make them different from what they choose.

[Franktalk]

FF,

Do you believe that Father can do His will? No, because he cannot and will not interfere with our agency he gave us. He wants us all to come back, we choose whether we will or not. His will is for all men to come unto Christ, repent and be born again, or they end up in a state of torment. Christ's own words.

You prove my point once again, Frank. I have said no such thing. I have said that man under his own will and agency and desire, with real intent...can repent and be saved. Why do you offend me by lying. ....

If our agency is to grow crops yet God stops the rain has God interfered with our agency?
If our agency is to be loved by women yet we are born deformed and ugly has God interfered with our agency?
If we work hard and fill our barns to satisfy our agency and God takes our life, has God interfered with our agency?
If we wish to see color yet we are born blind has God interfered with our agency?

Please answer these simple ones before I give you the hard ones.

[freedomforall]

Book of Alma the Son of Alma
Chapter 42

Mortality is a probationary time to enable man to repent and serve God—The Fall brought temporal and spiritual death upon all mankind—Redemption comes through repentance—God Himself atones for the sins of the world—Mercy is for those who repent—All others are subject to God’s justice—Mercy comes because of the Atonement—Only the truly penitent are saved. About 74 B.C.

1 ...concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

2 ...I will explain...after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—

3 ...man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

4 ...we see, ...there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 ...if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

8 ...it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

11 ...remember... if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.

12 ...there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

14 ...thus...all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.

17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.

19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?

20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.

21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

26 ...God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.

27 Therefore...whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.

28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.

29 ...

30 ...Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility.

31 ...may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen.

[Franktalk]

FF,

When we are born do we know about God? Or do we learn about God from others around us? If we look at the creation do we have the ability to see the power of God?

God made the universe for us to live in the flesh. For what purpose did He make the universe? We were already with God in heaven, then why cast us here? If the Father knew some would not come back to Him then why send anyone to this place? If God can do anything why did He come up with a plan that allowed the spirits He loved to burn in hell for eternity? If God is so smart and beyond our understanding why did he come up with a plan that does not fit His will for all to return? Is it possible that His plan does His will and accomplishes His goals but it is us that can't see His ways?

[freedomforall]

FF,

Do you believe that Father can do His will? No, because he cannot and will not interfere with our agency he gave us. He wants us all to come back, we choose whether we will or not. His will is for all men to come unto Christ, repent and be born again, or they end up in a state of torment. Christ's own words.

You prove my point once again, Frank. I have said no such thing. I have said that man under his own will and agency and desire, with real intent...can repent and be saved. Why do you offend me by lying. ....

If our agency is to grow crops yet God stops the rain has God interfered with our agency? Say what? You tell me.
If our agency is to be loved by women yet we are born deformed and ugly has God interfered with our agency? Say what? You tell me.
If we work hard and fill our barns to satisfy our agency and God takes our life, has God interfered with our agency? Say what? You tell me.
If we wish to see color yet we are born blind has God interfered with our agency? Say what? You tell me.

Please answer these simple ones before I give you the hard ones. Hard ones, indeed!

Why should I answer your questions any longer? You don't answer mine only with skirting around them and giving me more of your views. Besides some of your questions are ambiguous and, frankly, silly. I detect that you are trying to entrap me, thus, giving you more power to slant my every word. Thus, I stop answering them at this time. Sorry. Besides, I have posted something for your understanding, right from the BoM. Now say it is untrue that God serves out justice to sinners. There are more than you able to read this chapter and know what it says. Can you refute this?

[e-eye]

FF,

When we are born do we know about God? Or do we learn about God from others around us? If we look at the creation do we have the ability to see the power of God?

God made the universe for us to live in the flesh. For what purpose did He make the universe? We were already with God in heaven, then why cast us here? If the Father knew some would not come back to Him then why send anyone to this place? If God can do anything why did He come up with a plan that allowed the spirits He loved to burn in hell for eternity? If God is so smart and beyond our understanding why did he come up with a plan that does not fit His will for all to return? Is it possible that His plan does His will and accomplishes His goals but it is us that can't see His ways?

God did not make us come here nor does he make us go back to him,we were and are able to choose. Personally I think we were able to also choose to become his children when we were intelligences. If we chose him we chose his plan and thus agreed to the possibilities of the end result. God doesn't force anyone to follow him, trials come upon the just and unjust "we chose this plan" it's what we do with it.

[freedomforall]

FF,

When we are born do we know about God? Or do we learn about God from others around us? If we look at the creation do we have the ability to see the power of God?

God made the universe for us to live in the flesh. For what purpose did He make the universe? We were already with God in heaven, then why cast us here? If the Father knew some would not come back to Him then why send anyone to this place? If God can do anything why did He come up with a plan that allowed the spirits He loved to burn in hell for eternity? If God is so smart and beyond our understanding why did he come up with a plan that does not fit His will for all to return? Is it possible that His plan does His will and accomplishes His goals but it is us that can't see His ways?

See what I mean? You refuse to answer my questions. I know your are a smart man, but this takes the cake. You have deliberately avoided answering my questions about the chapter 42 in Alma as cited. Why does this not surprise me? Then you come back with something not even relevant to my questions. You skirt around truth, you don't want to see truth...evidenced by your avoidance. Your changing the conversation to suit you will not give merit to your beliefs if you cannot accept all of God's word.
I step down as this is a dead-end effort. We'll agree to disagree.

[Franktalk]

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. This is the loving God you believe in and his plan. He made it so man can be saved, if they choose to and repent.

The only difference between you and me is that I would change "if" to "when" in your statement.

This is the loving God you believe in and His plan. He made it so man can be saved, when they choose to repent.

[jo1952]

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. This is the loving God you believe in and his plan. He made it so man can be saved, if they choose to and repent.

The only difference between you and me is that I would change "if" to "when" in your statement.

This is the loving God you believe in and His plan. He made it so man can be saved, when they choose to repent.

Why would any of us have ever agreed to come here if we did not desire to be able to return to Father? Our desires transcend our existence in the flesh. This is only a part of our eternal existence. Would we have desired to come here and fail? Do we desire our own cessation? I think not. God is patient and long-suffering; His purposes will not fail. His purpose for us is to return to Him. We would never have decided to come here for the purpose of failing. The veil causes us to forget; but only while we are in the flesh which is where our overcoming needs to take place. Our spirit's desire was not to fail; the flesh can become a stumbling block to our eternal desire and purpose. But it can't cause us to fail because God's purpose is the same as ours....or should I say that our purpose is the same as God's; to be able to get out of here and back to Father. It is not a question of if; it is a question of when.