Snuffer & PTHG

[freedomforall]

Wow. This thread is too much to even try and comment on.

It is really sad when the true believers start getting personal. I wish we could stick to the subject. God has set the stage for me to be able to study the scriptures for many hours in a week. I have really enjoyed learning the scriptures and uncovering some of the secrets. But not everyone shares my view of things. And there are many who hate me when I write about what I know to be true.

I wish we could stick to the scriptures. It is there that the treasure will be found.

And just what is the subject? How to get the Prophets and Apostles to repent? To follow truth wherever it leads? Having someone declare, I am a voice of warning, and not even expound actual meaning to scripture?
Some doctrines espoused on his forum, many of which do not agree with the gospel of Jesus Christ, are an indication that the COJCOLDS teaches something not to be payed attention to.
Again, just what is the subject?
Truth is learned line upon line, precept upon precept. It doesn't change along the way. God's word is always the same. When we start claiming the church to be fallen, or calling leadership to repentance, this sends up a great big red flag. As knowledge is increased and light becomes brighter...this is keeping in tune with what Christ teaches, his gospel. Christ does not teach then or now that any other church has saving ordinances...as does the COJCOLDS. Jesus called twelve men to be his disciples in his day, and twelve apostles in our day which is consistent with his method of doing things. He encourages more than one witness.

This is Christ speaking.
Matthew 18:16
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Nephi 29:8
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

[Franktalk]

This is Christ speaking.
Matthew 18:16
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

You want me to get two Jehovah witnesses to teach me the gospel?

[Franktalk]

In your post:

I’m going to address and take care of giving an explanation for the weaker points first, and then move on to addressing the stronger points. Denver believes that when Elijah says “committed” when referencing the keys of that dispensation, that this is somehow a confirmation of a past event. However, this is simply not grammatically the case. In verse 14 Elijah says, “the time has fully come…” meaning “now at this moment is the time that the things spoken in Malachi are being fulfilled” i.e. this is the promised appearance of Elijah promised by Malachi. Since verses 14-16 are all one sentence, the straight forward interpretation is that it is all happening at that moment. Note that Elijah did not say the keys “were committed” but rather specifically “are committed” – meaning at that moment.

This is a total failure of an explanation. The statement that Elijah fulfilled in that moment is crazy. Show me where the hearts of the fathers turned to the sons and the hearts of the sons turned towards the fathers? Show me that in the world at that moment this took place.

When someone makes these kinds of sweeping statements that are far removed from reality it brings their whole work in question.

The only thing that was done in full was the appearance of Elijah. The statement about turning hearts came first so it stands to reason that the keys were going to be a part of those events. Many times in scripture something is given and later a confirmation occurs.

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

The promise of the Lord given unto Abraham was in effect the moment God gave it. Yet a confirmation was made to the heirs. Using Smith's argument the confirmation is the promise not the promise. I will hold to Snuffer's explanation as making more sense and is in following with the scriptures.

[pjbrownie]

I've read two Snuffer books and I can say they were uplifting for the most part. The arguments here about reading the book or not reading the book are "okay" but miss the point. It feels like those arguing against Snuffer are picking a fight against their perceptions of him raised by false disciples on this forum. Snuffer doesn't want disciples, and some of these disciples are carrying the water farther than it needs to go. I never read anything by Denver Snuffer that would constitute going against our modern prophet and priesthood. He may be more willing to point our errors in the modern church, but when weighted against every other institution, it is still the true Church that God will use as His vehicle. But these so-called disciples hold him up to a standard that he doesn't want.


Then queue the alarmed true believers then feel they have to defend the church against the Snuffer "charlatan". They continually put words in his mouth, words that are put there by the "disciples".

True, Snuffer was excommunicated, but after reading some of these posts, one can see what a concerned Priesthood leader would do so because from all appearance, he's stirring the mud. That doesn't seem to his intention, however, We don't know the reasons and maybe Snuffer went a little Oliver Cowdery and began steadying the ark. We still honor Cowdery for his good works and don't pay much attention to his land-grabbing in Missouri that eventually got him excommunicated. Whatever is good, lovely, and praiseworthy, we seek after these things. The works I've read from Denver Snuffer have helped me increase my testimony of the Church and Jesus Christ, and for that, he should be thanked. I haven't read PTHG and when I do maybe I'll think differently of him. If he goes contrary on some things, he won't get my support.

The arguments about reading his books fall a tad bit short for one simple reason. You have to pay for them. I'm not going to buy a book just to find out if it's true or not true. I want to read it first, then maybe buy it. Hard to do because it's hard to find without paying for it. It smacks a little Priest-crafty to me. It's too bad he couldn't just release PDF's for free. It would certainly help his cause because you would know he was in it for purely sincere reasons, not to make a buck, even if he says he donates it to missionaries. Why not just make the book free and reach more people. Isn't that more noble?

[freedomforall]

This is Christ speaking.
Matthew 18:16
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

You want me to get two Jehovah witnesses to teach me the gospel?

This is entirely up to you. You say all churches have the truth. If this is where truth leads you, go for it.

[Franktalk]

This is entirely up to you. You say all churches have the truth. If this is where truth leads you, go for it.

I say that all churches have some truth. Using the witness of the Holy Spirit we can find that truth. I have no problem listening to anyone.

You see the world is filled with witnesses. That is my point. But the witnesses come in a wide variety of beliefs. And all of them contain distortions. But if I hold to God and use His Holy Spirit then any witness could bring me some truth. Just as you hold that the LDS witnesses hold nothing but truth so do the Catholics, Baptist, JW, and many others. So for me I go to the source and then sort out what the witnesses say.

[freedomforall]

This is entirely up to you. You say all churches have the truth. If this is where truth leads you, go for it.

I say that all churches have some truth. Using the witness of the Holy Spirit we can find that truth. I have no problem listening to anyone.

You see the world is filled with witnesses. That is my point. But the witnesses come in a wide variety of beliefs. And all of them contain distortions. But if I hold to God and use His Holy Spirit then any witness could bring me some truth. Just as you hold that the LDS witnesses hold nothing but truth so do the Catholics, Baptist, JW, and many others. So for me I go to the source and then sort out what the witnesses say.

Yes, and all one has to do is find someone with the exact same paradigm and everything is hunky dory. I could be wrong, but I doubt one can find ten people that believe exactly alike in their own ward.

[Franktalk]

Yes, and all one has to do is find someone with the exact same paradigm and everything is hunky dory. I could be wrong, but I doubt one can find ten people that believe exactly alike in their own ward.

Why do you ignore what I say? It is the Holy Spirit that allows us to listen to many sources yet sort out truth. I do not need to find perfect people I already have a perfect Holy Ghost. Every time I am given new information by the Spirit of God I must cast aside all I know and reform what I believe around that new information. A small thing for me. Impossible for others.

[Epistemology]

Yes, and all one has to do is find someone with the exact same paradigm and everything is hunky dory. I could be wrong, but I doubt one can find ten people that believe exactly alike in their own ward.

Why do you ignore what I say? It is the Holy Spirit that allows us to listen to many sources yet sort out truth. I do not need to find perfect people I already have a perfect Holy Ghost. Every time I am given new information by the Spirit of God I must cast aside all I know and reform what I believe around that new information. A small thing for me. Impossible for others.

hmmm...

not sure exactly what you mean but let me tell you what I got from this post.

1. you rely on the Holy Ghost for your knowledge
2. but you cast aside your all ready accepted knowledge from the Holy Ghost when you feel like the HG give you new "different" information
3. then you adopt this new information as your new knowledge

but what happened to the previous knowledge you accepted and cast aside?

was it from the HG or not? if it was why cast it aside? the HG doesn't give false knowledge

[marc]

Because light cleaves to light. We learn line upon line and precept upon precept. The Lord continues to give us more and more.

Doctrine and Covenants 50:24
24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

[Epistemology]

Because light cleaves to light. We learn line upon line and precept upon precept. The Lord continues to give us more and more.

Doctrine and Covenants 50:24
24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

correct...

but we do not cast aside the first precept for it is the building block for the next precept.

[Franktalk]

hmmm...

not sure exactly what you mean but let me tell you what I got from this post.

1. you rely on the Holy Ghost for your knowledge
2. but you cast aside your all ready accepted knowledge from the Holy Ghost when you feel like the HG give you new "different" information
3. then you adopt this new information as your new knowledge

but what happened to the previous knowledge you accepted and cast aside?

was it from the HG or not? if it was why cast it aside? the HG doesn't give false knowledge

Nice hatchet job. All knowledge given is mixed with what we believe is true. When new knowledge is given we must take all that is believed and let it go. Then rebuild our beliefs based on new facts which have been given us. How you assumed that I take prior revelations and toss them is just a silly attempt at an argument. I though better of you.

[Epistemology]

hmmm...

not sure exactly what you mean but let me tell you what I got from this post.

1. you rely on the Holy Ghost for your knowledge
2. but you cast aside your all ready accepted knowledge from the Holy Ghost when you feel like the HG give you new "different" information
3. then you adopt this new information as your new knowledge

but what happened to the previous knowledge you accepted and cast aside?

was it from the HG or not? if it was why cast it aside? the HG doesn't give false knowledge

Nice hatchet job. All knowledge given is mixed with what we believe is true. When new knowledge is given we must take all that is believed and let it go. Then rebuild our beliefs based on new facts which have been given us. How you assumed that I take prior revelations and toss them is just a silly attempt at an argument. I though better of you.

easy...easy... all I wanted was clarification

notice how I NEVER used the word belief... because knowledge is not belief.

if you KNOW something that is different than BELIEVE something

so my questions still stands, which is not a hatchet job whatsoever by the way...

[freedomforall]

Yes, and all one has to do is find someone with the exact same paradigm and everything is hunky dory. I could be wrong, but I doubt one can find ten people that believe exactly alike in their own ward.

Why do you ignore what I say? It is the Holy Spirit that allows us to listen to many sources yet sort out truth. I do not need to find perfect people I already have a perfect Holy Ghost. Every time I am given new information by the Spirit of God I must cast aside all I know and reform what I believe around that new information. A small thing for me. Impossible for others. RED FLAG!

I hear that what goes around, comes around.
Let me be as candid and to the point as I am able. The COJCOLDS teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you know how I came to that conclusion? By reading the same bible you do. Do you know how I know that the other churches you mention do not contain all truth, by their fruits. Paid clergy. Buy forgiveness of sins, I mean who gets to go hear a TV Evangelist for free. Yet people are called up to the front to say a prayer and then they are saved. God warns about churches being built up to get gain and teach false doctrines. Sure, there is a small amount of truth, but why not get the whole truth from our own scriptures?

[freedomforall]

Yes, and all one has to do is find someone with the exact same paradigm and everything is hunky dory. I could be wrong, but I doubt one can find ten people that believe exactly alike in their own ward.

Why do you ignore what I say? It is the Holy Spirit that allows us to listen to many sources yet sort out truth. I do not need to find perfect people I already have a perfect Holy Ghost. Every time I am given new information by the Spirit of God I must cast aside all I know and reform what I believe around that new information. A small thing for me. Impossible for others.

hmmm...

not sure exactly what you mean but let me tell you what I got from this post.

1. you rely on the Holy Ghost for your knowledge
2. but you cast aside your all ready accepted knowledge from the Holy Ghost when you feel like the HG give you new "different" information
3. then you adopt this new information as your new knowledge

but what happened to the previous knowledge you accepted and cast aside?

was it from the HG or not? if it was why cast it aside? the HG doesn't give false knowledge

Well said, Epistemology. :ymapplause:

[freedomforall]

Because light cleaves to light. We learn line upon line and precept upon precept. The Lord continues to give us more and more.

Doctrine and Covenants 50:24
24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

This is very true, coachmarc. It is when we cast off previous light that the light stays dim. Light is built level by level, understanding upon understanding without any deviation of the knowledge being received.

1 Nephi 10:19
19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Alma 12:9
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. In other words, for the most part, keep them to yourself. Let others learn for themselves as they grow.

Ephesians 6:19
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel. And just what is the mystery of the gospel, some might ask?

Mysteries of Godliness

secret things belong unto the Lord: Deut. 29:29 .
secret of the Lord is with them that fear him: Ps. 25:14 .
God in heaven that revealeth secrets: Dan. 2:28 .
given unto you to know the mysteries: Matt. 13:11 . ( Mark 4:11 ; Luke 8:10 . )
I would not … that ye should be ignorant of this mystery: Rom. 11:25 .
according to the revelation of the mystery: Rom. 16:25 .
we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery: 1 Cor. 2:7 .
ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God: 1 Cor. 4:1 .
understand all mysteries … and have not charity: 1 Cor. 13:2 .
in the spirit he speaketh mysteries: 1 Cor. 14:2 .
I shew you a mystery: 1 Cor. 15:51 .
made known unto us the mystery of his will: Eph. 1:9 .
by revelation he made known unto me the mystery: Eph. 3:3 .
make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery: Eph. 3:9 .
a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ: Eph. 5:32 .
make known the mystery of the gospel: Eph. 6:19 .
mystery which hath been hid from ages: Col. 1:26 .
great is the mystery of godliness: 1 Tim. 3:16 . ( 1 Tim. 3:9 . )
mystery of God should be finished: Rev. 10:7 .
I will tell thee the mystery of the woman: Rev. 17:7 .
having great desires to know of the mysteries of God: 1 Ne. 2:16 .
mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by … Holy Ghost: 1 Ne. 10:19 .
until I shall see fit … to reveal all things: 2 Ne. 27:22 .
unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries: Jacob 4:8 .
we might read and understand of his mysteries: Mosiah 1:5 .
mysteries of God may be unfolded to your view: Mosiah 2:9 .
interpreters … prepared for … unfolding all such mysteries: Mosiah 8:19 .
I have seen much of his mysteries: Alma 10:5 .
given unto many to know the mysteries of God: Alma 12:9 . ( Alma 26:22 . )
every nation, kindred … shall know of the mysteries: Alma 37:4 .
many mysteries … no one knoweth them save God: Alma 40:3 .
mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you: D&C 6:7 .
mystery of godliness, how great is it: D&C 19:10 .
given him the keys of the mysteries: D&C 28:7 . ( D&C 35:18 . )
thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things: D&C 42:61 .
to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries: D&C 76:7 .
book which John saw … contains the revealed will, mysteries: D&C 77:6 .
greater priesthood … holdeth the key of the mysteries: D&C 84:19 .
blessings, in expounding all scriptures and mysteries: D&C 97:5 .
hidden things which no man knew: D&C 101:33 .
privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom: D&C 107:19 .
intention of their more mysterious passages revealed: JS—H 1:74 .

See also D&C 93:28 ; D&C 121:26

And a promise:
Alma 12:10

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

[freedomforall]

hmmm...

not sure exactly what you mean but let me tell you what I got from this post.

1. you rely on the Holy Ghost for your knowledge
2. but you cast aside your all ready accepted knowledge from the Holy Ghost when you feel like the HG give you new "different" information
3. then you adopt this new information as your new knowledge

but what happened to the previous knowledge you accepted and cast aside?

was it from the HG or not? if it was why cast it aside? the HG doesn't give false knowledge

Nice hatchet job. All knowledge given is mixed with what we believe is true. When new knowledge is given we must take all that is believed and let it go. Danger, danger, Mr. Robinson! Then rebuild our beliefs based on new facts which have been given us. How you assumed that I take prior revelations and toss them is just a silly attempt at an argument. I though better of you.

Just where did you get the knowledge you had to let go? This is the point Epistemology is making. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of growing line upon line, not discarding and replacement, unless the prior was false in the first place. Then I suppose you would have a valid point.

[Franktalk]

Just where did you get the knowledge you had to let go? This is the point Epistemology is making. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of growing line upon line, not discarding and replacement, unless the prior was false in the first place. Then I suppose you would have a valid point.

Last time I checked I was still in the form of weak flesh. Able to make huge mistakes. When I receive any information from discernment it is always mixed with things I think I know. It is possible that a little information is used by me to overreach in what it means. Being in this weak flesh any attempt by me to use one revelation to figure out another passage in the Bible may or may not be appropriate. So where the Holy Spirit gives line upon line I can't help but turn that into page by page. It is human nature. So I must be able to take down all I think I know and go back and reconstruct the interpretation of the scriptures each time I receive something new. I must take only what is given me line by line and start anew to construct my understanding of the scriptures. There is no other way to build a view of the scriptures in a meaningful way.

It must be nice not having to reconstruct your views. To just accept what someone else says and memorize what they tell you what things mean. To let someone else do the hard work of dealing with the Holy Ghost and searching out the scriptures. But for me it is a constant tear down and rebuild.

[Epistemology]

Just where did you get the knowledge you had to let go? This is the point Epistemology is making. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of growing line upon line, not discarding and replacement, unless the prior was false in the first place. Then I suppose you would have a valid point.

Last time I checked I was still in the form of weak flesh. Able to make huge mistakes. When I receive any information from discernment it is always mixed with things I think I know. It is possible that a little information is used by me to overreach in what it means. Being in this weak flesh any attempt by me to use one revelation to figure out another passage in the Bible may or may not be appropriate. So where the Holy Spirit gives line upon line I can't help but turn that into page by page. It is human nature. So I must be able to take down all I think I know and go back and reconstruct the interpretation of the scriptures each time I receive something new. I must take only what is given me line by line and start anew to construct my understanding of the scriptures. There is no other way to build a view of the scriptures in a meaningful way.

It must be nice not having to reconstruct your views. To just accept what someone else says and memorize what they tell you what things mean. To let someone else do the hard work of dealing with the Holy Ghost and searching out the scriptures. But for me it is a constant tear down and rebuild.

Not putting aside knowledge given by the HG doesn't have anything to do with:

"just accept what someone else says and memorize what they tell you what things mean. To let someone else do the hard work of dealing with the Holy Ghost and searching out the scriptures. But for me it is a constant tear down and rebuild."

I don't want to assume your stance since im not clear on it, but may be this is what you are saying.

"As packets of knowledge unfold, they must be understood, valued, obeyed, remembered, and expanded. I’ll explain:
•
Understood. As each element of truth is encountered, you must carefully examine it in the light of prior knowledge to determine where it fits. Ponder it; inspect it inside out. Study it from every vantage point to discover hidden meaning. View it in perspective to confirm you have not jumped to false conclusions. Prayerful reflection yields further understanding. Such evaluation is particularly important when the truth comes as an impression of the Spirit.

•
Valued. You show knowledge is valued by expressing appreciation for it, especially in heartfelt prayers of gratitude. The Lord said: “He who receiveth all things with thankfulness shall be made glorious; and the things of this earth shall be added unto him, even an hundred fold, yea, more” (D&C 78:19).

•
Obeyed. Obedient application of truth is the surest way of making it eternally yours. The wise use of knowledge will permeate your life with its precious fruit.

•
Remembered. Powerful spiritual direction in your life can be overcome or forced into the background unless you provide a way to retain it. Brigham Young declared, “If you love the truth you can remember it” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1954, p. 10). Knowledge carefully recorded is knowledge available in time of need. Spiritually sensitive information should be kept in a sacred place that communicates to the Lord how you treasure it. That practice enhances the likelihood of your receiving further light.

•
Expanded. This thought refers to rich benefits that come from your efforts to enlarge, extend, and increase your understanding of truth. Use the scriptures and the declarations of the prophets to expand your knowledge. You will find that efforts to share knowledge are often rewarded with more understanding as additional light flows into your mind and heart (see D&C 8:2–3)."

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... =knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if you are saying this i agree with you. but your post is unclear to me and maybe we are not in agreement, im not sure.

i personally think that when one receives knowledge it is always knowledge and other truths learned we must find out how the new truth fits with the previously learned truth and do some shuffling.

[freedomforall]

Just where did you get the knowledge you had to let go? This is the point Epistemology is making. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of growing line upon line, not discarding and replacement, unless the prior was false in the first place. Then I suppose you would have a valid point.

Last time I checked I was still in the form of weak flesh. Able to make huge mistakes. When I receive any information from discernment it is always mixed with things I think I know. It is possible that a little information is used by me to overreach in what it means. Being in this weak flesh any attempt by me to use one revelation to figure out another passage in the Bible may or may not be appropriate. So where the Holy Spirit gives line upon line I can't help but turn that into page by page. It is human nature. So I must be able to take down all I think I know and go back and reconstruct the interpretation of the scriptures each time I receive something new. I must take only what is given me line by line and start anew to construct my understanding of the scriptures. There is no other way to build a view of the scriptures in a meaningful way.

It must be nice not having to reconstruct your views. To just accept what someone else says and memorize what they tell you what things mean. To let someone else do the hard work of dealing with the Holy Ghost and searching out the scriptures. But for me it is a constant tear down and rebuild.

This is a major error on your part. I learn from the spirit and some common sense. How many times have I pointed out something but what you have sidestepped it or said something not even associated to the scripture I showed you. Is this your method of reconstructing? Once in a while someone will bring out something that needs due diligence on my part. By and large my knowledge is from feasting on the word.

[Franktalk]

so my questions still stands, .....

In the world men think they know something only to find out that what they thought they knew was wrong. The same is true with the interpretation of the scriptures. We have little direct knowledge as given by the Holy Spirit and we assemble a view of the rest of scripture based on those parts we know for a certainty. In some cases myself included we piece together a view of the scriptures where we overreach thinking that some revelation solves many questions in the scriptures where it may not. Then when we receive additional revelation we must be ready to tear down what we thought we knew and replace it using the additional information. When I first started to learn the scriptures I had very little direct revelation and discernment. So I studied many scholars and found that they all held some things that to me seemed correct. But I found no one that matched what I thought the scriptures said. From that day to now I have received many revelations and have spiritual discerned many passages. Very few of my original ideas on the scriptures have remained in tact over the years. Each time I receive a new revelation or discern some scripture by the Spirit I examine all of my views on the whole of scripture. Many times I thought I knew a passage only to find out that a new bit of information changed my understanding of that passage. Over time I have come to see that many passages in the Bible and the rest of the scriptures contain layers of understanding. This took a great deal of work to sort out. I was lead to a verse which had two or three meanings. A personal message, one for nations, one for the church, one for prophecy, and one for a shadow of spiritual events. God is very complex and so is His scripture. If I am not ready to tear it down and rebuild I will miss what the Lord reveals to me. If I hold fast to my view of His message I will not receive any more messages. My view must be as a lump of clay ready to be shaped as the Lord sees fit. If I ever cast my view (the clay) into an oven to harden it then I will become stiffnecked. Instead I wish to take on as much knowledge as the Lord will give me.

So I never throw away any revelations from God but I may use them differently based on additional knowledge. The hard part of discernment is to absolutely accept that all scripture is one message with no contradictions. We can not pick and chose verses. They all are important and they all must fit into His message for us.

[kathyn]

I guess for me, the point is from whom is the "message" coming? All of this "enlightenment" might actually be from a source other than God. We will each have to read the scriptures and decide for ourselves whether it comes by way of God or from a counterfeit power.

I always have to wonder about the source when it leads one away from the Church, but supposedly closer to Jesus Christ. Since I see the Church as being under the Lord's direct leadership, I then see those who continue to attack the LDS church and its members as having spiritual manifestations from other than the Lord. I guess time will tell which of us is following the true Spirit. It's no use to argue about who listens to the Holy Ghost and Christ better, because each of us believes we're on the correct side.

[Franktalk]

This is a major error on your part. I learn from the spirit and some common sense. ...

I accept that you and I see things differently. I do not see you in error, I just think your understanding is not complete. In my view the scriptures can be viewed many ways. The first way is temporal which is your "common sense". This is the way of man and is not the way of God. But it does lead to a temporal understanding of the scriptures and it is better than nothing. It also is a structure in which the Holy Spirit can start to form ideas into your mind so one can spiritually discern. The next view that comes along is the view of the scriptures based on temporal laws. These would be the Laws of Moses or the Laws given by Joseph Smith. The Law is given to those who refuse to seek God face to face and instead believe temporal commandments are a way to heaven. The scriptures can be viewed with this understanding. Most people who call themselves Christian are at this understanding. Then there is the spiritual view in which many passages are seen as a shadow of spiritual events. None of these views are wrong. They are needed steps on God's plan.

[Franktalk]

I guess for me, the point is from whom is the "message" coming? All of this "enlightenment" might actually be from a source other than God. We will each have to read the scriptures and decide for ourselves whether it comes by way of God or from a counterfeit power.

I always have to wonder about the source when it leads one away from the Church, but supposedly closer to Jesus Christ. Since I see the Church as being under the Lord's direct leadership, I then see those who continue to attack the LDS church and its members as having spiritual manifestations from other than the Lord. I guess time will tell which of us is following the true Spirit. It's no use to argue about who listens to the Holy Ghost and Christ better, because each of us believes we're on the correct side.

I see your point. But there are many more people who hold to the idea that the authority in the church came from Peter and was handed down over the ages to the current Pope. These people see the LDS church as directed by Satan. The only way to sort this out is to go directly to God. We must not trust any man or church leader with telling us God's truth. If you accept that the Roman catholic church drifted from the "present truth" as described by Peter then you must accept at least the possibility that the LDS church could have some of the same drift from the original truth as laid out by Joseph Smith. It becomes very important for us to determine for ourselves if that happened. And if so how much and what changed. This investigation is not of the Devil. This investigation is something that every person who seeks God face to face should do. Prove to yourself that the current leaders of the church deserve your faith in them. I will tell you that my faith is stronger now than it has ever been. My investigations into all of the church histories from the ancient church forward has given me more faith in God and less faith in men. But that is me. Some have fallen away and have lost their faith in God. It is my belief that those who fell away had faith in men and not God in the first place.

[freedomforall]

This is a major error on your part. I learn from the spirit and some common sense. ...

I accept that you and I see things differently. I do not see you in error, I just think your understanding is not complete. In my view the scriptures can be viewed many ways. The first way is temporal which is your "common sense". This is the way of man and is not the way of God. But it does lead to a temporal understanding of the scriptures and it is better than nothing. It also is a structure in which the Holy Spirit can start to form ideas into your mind so one can spiritually discern. The next view that comes along is the view of the scriptures based on temporal laws. These would be the Laws of Moses or the Laws given by Joseph Smith. The Law is given to those who refuse to seek God face to face and instead believe temporal commandments are a way to heaven. The scriptures can be viewed with this understanding. Most people who call themselves Christian are at this understanding. Then there is the spiritual view in which many passages are seen as a shadow of spiritual events. None of these views are wrong. They are needed steps on God's plan.

It requires common sense to understand a scripture that is so plain that no other interpretation is required. There are verses, however, that require higher light and understanding to get the full meaning. The difference is to know the difference in what needs further light and knowledge. Tearing down every single verse and analyzing it to death is not productive. When Christ says that some people will go to hell for not repenting...this is precisely what He means. It needs no further analyzing, especially in trying to make it say something it does not and then posting as true scripture. The only time every single person will see the face of God is when they die and are tasken home to that God whom gave them life. Then they will be assigned as to which place they will go , either Paradise, or Spirit Prison, until the resurrection. Now how hard is that to understand? After which the righteous will be resurrected into eternal glory and the less valiant to some other lesser glory, many, of whom, will be in the Telestial realm. Period. If I recall, Jo1952 states that everyone will be with God. So you tell me what truth is. I got my info from scripture, D&C 76.
Sometimes God will take someone right to where He is as was Paul, (Corinthians 12:2) to the Celestial Kingdom. As was Joseph's brother, Alvin. (D&C 137:1) I won't say this for a fact, but I would think that Paul and Alvin had resurrected bodies. The resurrection is not one event, Christ having been the first. The wicked will have to wait till all the righteous have been resurrected before they have their turn.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.