Snuffer & PTHG

[freedomforall]

To overcome this temporal plane we must acquire knowledge and we must experience many things. These events change us and as each step is completed we move along in knowledge and understanding. Our guides are helpful as well. One of the key things we are to know is to know God. Much more than knowing about Him. The attraction that Denver has to many is he is freely talking about knowing God. If the church fulfilled this requirement then no one would read Denver's books.

Weird. My experience has been different. I've been told that I must build my own testimony of God.

What more about the nature of God do we need to know than has already been said?

Something to consider:

2 Nephi 29:3?

And because my words shall hiss forth-many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be more Bible.

We know that this verse is in reference to people who will not accept the BoM as the word of God. The bible is not the only source with which we can learn about God.

[freedomforall]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

I know God expects you to be meek and lowly of heart. To have faith, hope and charity. Does your comment to infowarrior reflect that? Think about it. Know God, indeed!

[freedomforall]

Yes, I agree that it is important to know God. But maybe I should ask the question differently. What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

You are asking another question that clearly demonstrates that you do not know what it means to know God. I didn't think this was such a hard concept to understand. I see brlenox thanked you for tihs post. I must assume that he too does not know what it means to know God.

Go and read the account of the Brother of Jared. Better yet, read the scripture I quoted from the Lectures on Faith. If you do not know what it means to know God, you will not be saved. I know God.

Sooo.. you won't answer the question?

What have you learned about God that is contrary to what our church teaches about God?

It's actually not that difficult of a question. Pretty straightforward even.

Some folks think that escape and evasion is answering a question. Keep asking, and maybe it will get through.

[freedomforall]

"When the Brother of Jared saw the Lord, he had faith no longer, he had knowledge. It is this knowledge that will save you."

Frederick can I share a thought or two here? I think you are misunderstanding here what faith really is by making this statement. Go to Lecture 1 where Joseph said that Faith was the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things. He went on to say without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence. He then said that faith was the basis of ALL action and power in the universe.

One stumbling block many people apparently need to overcome in understanding the principle of faith is the mistaken idea that once a person obtains perfect knowledge of a doctrine of God, then their faith disappears. When the Brother of Jared saw the Lord he did not have his faith disappear. Far from it. His faith actually increased exponentially. Once we obtain a sure knowledge of truth that does not remove our need for faith.

Consider this. God knows all things or all the laws of the universe. How did God create the worlds? By the power of His faith! Sure knowledge does not take the place of faith. If so God would have no need for faith. The process of faith is a circle: we obtain knowledge of God in order to develop faith. Then our spiritual knowledge grows and our faith develops the power to make our righteous hopes and desires real. We can produce miracles, use gifts of the spirit, and see Gods face and live. Joseph said that miracles were the fruits of the power of faith.

You claim in your post here that you know God. What are the fruits of that knowledge that you claim to possess? Do you have Christs image engraven in your countenance? Have you developed a perfect love for all men through that knowledge? You speak somewhat condescendingly and with an aire of superiority in your responses to Infowarrior and brlenox. You challenge their understanding of the Lord and his mercies extended to all his children if they are not are your level of understanding as you perceive. So I ask you: What are your fruits here Brother?

Amen and Amen. I couldn't have said this any better. No one, I mean no one, would talk down on other people and know God also. No one mentioned the need for hope, charity and being lowly in heart as part of knowing God. Moroni 7

[freedomforall]

Following the discussions on this board on Snuffer reminds me of gnosticism.

I've not read any of his books nor do I intend to. Like most critics, his is a twisted interpretation of scripture and history. I have read a number of things on his website and would not waste my time on his books. Indeed, Joseph was and is the Prophet of the restoration; however, President Monson is his legal successor and does indeed hold all keys necessary to administer the ordinances of salvation and build the kingdom of God on earth.

For those wanting a review of PTHG by someone who has read the book:

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... ne-of-two/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The above review does a thorough job of going through the book and demonstrating the fallacies inherent in Snuffer's theories.

I've not posted before on Snuffer but have been disappointed in this board, the attention he has garnered, and the constant carping on the Church and the Lord's anointed.

Excellent review! It does amaze me though that there are some who think this Church will fail. In the immortal words of President Heber J. Grant:

"Any Latter-day Saint that thinks for one minute that this Church is going to fail is not a really converted Latter-day Saint. There will be no failure in this Church. It has been established for the last time, never to be given to another people and never to be thrown down."

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-he ... 3?lang=eng

Not to mention Jacob 5 about the Lord's vineyard. This chapter is so wonderful and needful to know.

[keep the faith]

Jules, what you describe here is not the case for me. I have read your testimonies and others. They are pretty easy to find. I genuinely am interested and accept that you and others have had great experiences. I believe that I have made that clear over the months. I have searched and sought for insight and instruction concerning the dilemma that some of you provide for certain elements of profound rightness in some of your observations. However, there are certain clear cut behaviors that are well defined, clearly spelled out, and beyond contestation as the words and counsel of the prophets from Joseph Smith to the Latter-day prophets. I have to ignore them to believe those of you, of these experiences, are a suitable pattern of exemplary behavior that should be emulated. There is a taint that I cannot step over.

Do you think that having these experiences means a person must be "perfect"?? Who ever said that it did? Even Cain walked and talked with God....! I have LOTS to overcome. Denver Snuffer claims he does too. I believe him - I've heard him swearing.... =)) . OUR idea of what qualifies us for these experiences is certainly not the same as God's idea. We must quit judging and cast off that disbelief that hinders us.....

I know you know I realize what you are saying. I am not just willy nilly picking random acts of imperfection to call people out on. Neither you nor I are about to admit of our diverse insights speaking to our complete and perfected standing before God.

I am focusing on a key, a powerful, specific key, that if Joseph Smith is a prophet to you and others, they will not go to such great lengths to say the key does not fit the lock that reveals a specific state of mind. Of all imperfections, to speak against the general authorities is a specific indicator that is a warning and alert for all of those that would receive your testimony that they, in wisdom, must not do so.

Yet there is a mindset that seeks the blessings that you speak of, that if what they are seeking is premature to their maturity, they will be tempted to overlook the key that a prophet of God provided and immediately step off of the straight and narrow path in an unrighteous pursuit for which they are yet prepared to receive. They will seek their will over the warning of God that you might want to be better prepared for the inevitable balance of great experience opens the door to great temptation, which of necessity is also beyond their ability to detect. The Boyd K. Packer Quote I provided earlier in this thread basically states that if you seek earnestly enough the Lord will give and you may find that you have run faster than you are able and may be mislead.

Joseph Smith did not give the warning he gave for us to ignore it so that we will not be the judgmental ones that suffer from our wrongful judgments. That quote is specifically a quote of judgment. It is to be used as a warning sign. It is not a statement of final judgement but simply a judgment that we are told to make in order to not be deceived.

I am confident that if you contemplate your own progress, that you will examine your past and be able to remember the first time you seconded someone's criticism of the brethren that you will recollect the sense of uneasiness that you felt. I am sure that over time with each rehearsal of the negative comments that it become easier and easier to not feel any sense of remorse or wrongness in the criticism. I am sure that as you aligned yourself with others who also voiced such things that they were perfect friends for you. Your experiences and interpretations were similar, you strengthened each other in acceptability of the condemnations of the brethren and you no longer allow any unease to surface to warn you of the ever so slight drift away from the Lord, while an impostor seeks to take his place. Hence why Josephs warning is so forceful and powerful and even as an intellectual evaluation is sufficient to give adequate meaning to the principle he defines.

I am confident as well that should you choose to respond you will have a reasonable explanation why that feeling of unease is not rooted in good. I have already read Denver's explanation of how that feeling of ill ease is predicated upon our resistance to leaving wrongly perceived perceptions and is based on trying to hold on to our comfortable place. Sometimes that may be true...Sometimes it is dead wrong.

This is so insightful of you brlenox. People who have not experienced false spirits and deception from adversarial sources will not understand the importance of your message here. I know some people here get really irritated when I bring up my experiences with the Harmston bunch years ago but those experiences shaped my understanding of deceptive influences that so easily can creep into ones pursuits of greater spiritual light and knowledge if they do not check themselves carefully. It is so critical to adhere to the warnings given by Joseph and so many others church leaders.

These people associated with Harmston started out with noble intentions in learning gospel doctrines that are wonderful and elevating like calling and election and more sure word of prophesy etc. However they began to ignore the keys spoken of by Joseph and other church leaders concerning speaking ill of the established church and its leadership and soon they tried to force the Lords hand so to speak in obtaining this greater light and knowledge and having visits from the other side of the veil. Many of them were receiving all types of visionary experiences as they would pray in the manner of the true order of prayer in their individual study groups or in their bedrooms. I do not doubt for one minute that spirits were visiting them and revelation was occurring.

However the fruits of these experiences showed clearly what the source of these visitations were. These people were screaming follow the spirit follow the spirit and this spirit that was present with them was getting them to openly talk trash about the Brethren in leadership of the LDS church and become more and more critical of the church and its standing with The Lord.

The martyr complex followed where many were complaining that they were being singled out and picked on by church leaders because they wanted to follow the spirit. They were even advocating to be deceptive with church leaders so as to get into the temple and practice the true order of prayer together in sealing rooms etc. But it all started when they chose to fault find and speak critical of church leadership. They would have done well to follow this counsel given by Dallin Oaks in a talk he gave about critisism where he said:

“Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.” (D&C 121:16.)

The counsel against speaking evil of Church leaders is not so much for the benefit of the leaders as it is for the spiritual well-being of members who are prone to murmur and find fault. The Church leaders I know are durable people. They made their way successfully in a world of unrestrained criticism before they received their current callings. They have no personal need for protection; they seek no personal immunities from criticism—constructive or destructive. They only seek to declare what they understand to be the word of the Lord to his people.

President David O. McKay said this about what he called “murmurers” and “faultfinders”:

“‘Speak not against the authorities.’ What does it mean? Be not a murmurer; that is what it means. It is one of the most poisonous things that can be introduced into the home of a Latter-day Saint—this murmuring against presidents of stakes, high councilors, Sunday School superintendents, etc. …

“Better stop murmuring and build. Remember that one of the worst means of tearing down an individual is slander. It is one of the most poisonous weapons that the evil one uses. Backbiting and evil speaking throw us into the class of malefactors rather than the class of benefactors.” (Gospel Ideals, Salt Lake City: Improvement Era, 1953, pp. 142–43.)"

This poison Pres. McKay describes separated many good people from the church and the Priesthood. It is damning and must be avoided at all costs or spiritual deception will surely follow its practice. I saw that happen first hand and know of its reality.

[Franktalk]

Since some refuse to examine the scriptures in depth, preferring to be told what they mean, it makes conversations with these people of no worth. I think that part of their plan is to tie up people in nonsense so that those who have moved on will not spread their message beyond a small cluster of people. In this they do err. Because many who have moved on did so with no outside help (temporal). So the number of people who do get guided to higher understandings is growing without influence of anyone from this site. Their error is based on how they received the message of the scriptures. They received them from men. So they assume that the understanding by some is spread by the same method. Like I said, in this they do err.

They do not believe us when we say we seek out each other after we expand our understanding. They instead believe the ideas are of the world and from Satan and are spread from one person to the next. When people are ready to seek more only then will they get more. Until then there are some here that are a waste of time.

Their closed mind mentality and willingness to be led by man can not be broken by ideas that come from men describing a higher understanding. It must come from God directly to them. Just like it came to us. They are lost in the world just as we are, just stuck on some ideas. So we ignore their insults and wish the best for them. We pray for them just like others before us have prayed for us when we were blind. I know that all things work out in the end. I know that God does not abandon anyone. We just need to accept the will of the Father and let things unfold as they unfold.

[keep the faith]

Since some refuse to examine the scriptures in depth, preferring to be told what they mean, it makes conversations with these people of no worth. I think that part of their plan is to tie up people in nonsense so that those who have moved on will not spread their message beyond a small cluster of people. In this they do err. Because many who have moved on did so with no outside help (temporal). So the number of people who do get guided to higher understandings is growing without influence of anyone from this site. Their error is based on how they received the message of the scriptures. They received them from men. So they assume that the understanding by some is spread by the same method. Like I said, in this they do err.

They do not believe us when we say we seek out each other after we expand our understanding. They instead believe the ideas are of the world and from Satan and are spread from one person to the next. When people are ready to seek more only then will they get more. Until then there are some here that are a waste of time.

Their closed mind mentality and willingness to be led by man can not be broken by ideas that come from men describing a higher understanding. It must come from God directly to them. Just like it came to us. They are lost in the world just as we are, just stuck on some ideas. So we ignore their insults and wish the best for them. We pray for them just like others before us have prayed for us when we were blind. I know that all things work out in the end. I know that God does not abandon anyone. We just need to accept the will of the Father and let things unfold as they unfold.

Your comments seem to fit the TLC mindset perfectly franktalk. I hear they are looking for some new apostles to fill some voids. They are hot and heavy on Multiple Mortal Probations. Just sayin.. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_L ... _Last_Days" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Franktalk]

Your comments seem to fit the TLC mindset perfectly franktalk. I hear they are looking for some new apostles to fill some voids. They are hot and heavy on Multiple Mortal Probations. Just sayin.. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_L ... _Last_Days" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am perfectly happy in God's church. Why would I join another? I have repented of my sins and I seek Jesus. It is a system that is complete which I do not wish to add or subtract from.

[keep the faith]

Your comments seem to fit the TLC mindset perfectly franktalk. I hear they are looking for some new apostles to fill some voids. They are hot and heavy on Multiple Mortal Probations. Just sayin.. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_L ... _Last_Days" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am perfectly happy in God's church. Why would I join another? I have repented of my sins and I seek Jesus. It is a system that is complete which I do not wish to add or subtract from.

Hundreds upon hundreds of people all over the world in every denomination repent of their sins and seek Jesus franktalk. Does your church you claim as Gods church have a specific name?

[freedomforall]

Since some refuse to examine the scriptures in depth, preferring to be told what they mean, it makes conversations with these people of no worth. I think that part of their plan is to tie up people in nonsense so that those who have moved on will not spread their message beyond a small cluster of people. In this they do err. Because many who have moved on did so with no outside help (temporal). So the number of people who do get guided to higher understandings is growing without influence of anyone from this site. Their error is based on how they received the message of the scriptures. They received them from men. So they assume that the understanding by some is spread by the same method. Like I said, in this they do err.

They do not believe us when we say we seek out each other after we expand our understanding. They instead believe the ideas are of the world and from Satan and are spread from one person to the next. When people are ready to seek more only then will they get more. Until then there are some here that are a waste of time. Well said, so here's your hat, but what's your hurry?

Their closed mind mentality and willingness to be led by man can not be broken by ideas that come from men describing a higher understanding. It must come from God directly to them. Just like it came to us. So we are to understand now that you are the elite, the all knowing, and on the right hand of God's throne? They are lost in the world just as we are, just stuck on some ideas. So we ignore their insults and wish the best for them. We pray for them just like others before us have prayed for us when we were blind. I know that all things work out in the end. I know that God does not abandon anyone. We just need to accept the will of the Father and let things unfold as they unfold.This is correct, so aren't you trying to exalt yourself among men

Here is a warning:

Matthew 23:12
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

If one is going to quote scripture, one should read them all for a complete understanding.
Some of us on this forum feel the spirit is telling us to be cautious of people adamantly stating to the world that they have it made. Even a person that has been told their C&E is sure, should keep quiet, it is sacred and not a premise for discussion...which can bring criticism and harsh judgement. Sacred things should be kept sacred.

Here is another warning:

3 Nephi 13:2
2 Therefore, when ye shall do your alms do not sound a trumpet before you, as will hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.

And another:

Alma 12:9
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

Do we all agree on scripture?

[Frederick]

Are these words hard to hear?

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John, Chapter 8)

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (Matthew, Chapter 23)

Did Christ show forth charity here? Was He giving them hope?

[Lizzy60]

You don't really want to start a conversation on people who exalt themselves, do you? The entire General Conference extravaganza is an exercise in exalting men -- they sit in the high seats in the large and spacious building, they have their own separate entrance and exit doors, the entire congregation stands until they file out of the room (in order of seniority, of course) and on and on and on. Yes, I believe scripture. I would fear for my salvation if I were exalted by men.
From what I have read, Frank is a humble man living in an out-of-the-way place, with no earthly honors of men to his name. He glories in God, not himself.

[marc]

Here is a warning:

Matthew 23:12
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

If one is going to quote scripture, one should read them all for a complete understanding.
Some of us on this forum feel the spirit is telling us to be cautious of people adamantly stating to the world that they have it made. Even a person that has been told their C&E is sure, should keep quiet, it is sacred and not a premise for discussion...which can bring criticism and harsh judgement. Sacred things should be kept sacred.

I agree with the scripture, but not necessarily your interpretation. I have been told by the Spirit to share my testimony. I have not shared everything, because I do hold sacred those experiences. I can appreciate the Spirit cautioning you. But it doesn't mean that the Spirit hasn't told others NOT to testify of their experiences. I have no problem or take issue with what the Spirit has told you. Please don't make assumptions about what the Spirit has told me. Feel free to accept or reject whatever I share. I love you, brother, but again, please don't presume to tell me that I should keep quiet.

[ajax]

Even a person that has been told their C&E is sure, should keep quiet, it is sacred and not a premise for discussion...which can bring criticism and harsh judgement.

Then stop criticizing and judging. (not you personally, but in general)

Isn't that the Christian lot though? To be persecuted for His names sake?

[keep the faith]

You don't really want to start a conversation on people who exalt themselves, do you? The entire General Conference extravaganza is an exercise in exalting men -- they sit in the high seats in the large and spacious building, they have their own separate entrance and exit doors, the entire congregation stands until they file out of the room (in order of seniority, of course) and on and on and on. Yes, I believe scripture. I would fear for my salvation if I were exalted by men.
From what I have read, Frank is a humble man living in an out-of-the-way place, with no earthly honors of men to his name. He glories in God, not himself.

Once again attacks on the Prophets and faultfinding of their stewardships. The beat goes on..

[ajax]

From what I have read, Frank is a humble man living in an out-of-the-way place, with no earthly honors of men to his name. He glories in God, not himself.

...and he only wears a loincloth.

[Chicagoelder]

You don't really want to start a conversation on people who exalt themselves, do you? The entire General Conference extravaganza is an exercise in exalting men -- they sit in the high seats in the large and spacious building, they have their own separate entrance and exit doors, the entire congregation stands until they file out of the room (in order of seniority, of course) and on and on and on. Yes, I believe scripture. I would fear for my salvation if I were exalted by men.
From what I have read, Frank is a humble man living in an out-of-the-way place, with no earthly honors of men to his name. He glories in God, not himself.

Really Lizzy60? Do you know why they have their own entrance/exit? Good golly could it be that way for security reasons? The Brethren follow each other in seniority as a show of respect for those who have served longer and the crowd stands as a sign of respect for the Offices these men hold. Heaven forbid we should have or show reverence for the Prophets and Apostles.

[jo1952]

Your comments seem to fit the TLC mindset perfectly franktalk. I hear they are looking for some new apostles to fill some voids. They are hot and heavy on Multiple Mortal Probations. Just sayin.. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_and_L ... _Last_Days" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am perfectly happy in God's church. Why would I join another? I have repented of my sins and I seek Jesus. It is a system that is complete which I do not wish to add or subtract from.

Hundreds upon hundreds of people all over the world in every denomination repent of their sins and seek Jesus franktalk. Does your church you claim as Gods church have a specific name?

D&C 10:67-68

67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

No matter which denomination or organized institution of religion an individual attends, if they have repented and come to the Lord, they are the Lord's church. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church. Are YOU the Lord's church? Even though I believe that you have read this section of the D&C before, you have not grasped its meaning with spiritual discernment. You see it through temporal eyes. You see only what you want to see; only what you are able and ready to see. We are all only able to see what we want to see; only what we are able and ready to see. That being said, you are still right where you need to be, because God's purposes will not fail. When each of us is able and ready to see God, we will. If we haven't seen Him, then we aren't able or ready to see Him.

There is another teaching you are not ready to see and understand:

Luke 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Both Frank and I are FOR the Church, as are the others who are able to recognize her problems but still choose to stay. Pointing to her problems is not the same as being against her. In fact, we claim that she is vitally important, and that she is serving God's purposes. But this is an old and continuing argument with you. You see what you want to see. So be it.

As individuals who make mistakes, the only way that we can truly repent is by recognizing that we HAVE made mistakes and then take steps to correct ourselves. We learn from our mistakes; there is no shame in then repenting. The Church SHOULD be doing the same---even setting an example for the rest of us---she should repent when mistakes are made...and then take the steps to correct herself. Why should she be treated any differently than us? Why would she not do what she requires of us to do?

[jo1952]

From what I have read, Frank is a humble man living in an out-of-the-way place, with no earthly honors of men to his name. He glories in God, not himself.

...and he only wears a loincloth.

:))

[freedomforall]

Are these words hard to hear?

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John, Chapter 8)

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (Matthew, Chapter 23)

Did Christ show forth charity here? Was He giving them hope?

You're telling the story. If the Prophet were to tell me he has it made, I might believe him, but people on this forum claiming things that are not found in scriptures, I wonder where they are getting their information. That, is of truth. And even if I knew in my heart that I will meet my maker and enter into His Glory...I wouldn't be on here bragging about it.
The Book of Mormon tells each of us in plain English what it takes to obtain the highest glory. No where do I read that bragging about it is a good thing.

I agree with the scripture, but not necessarily your interpretation. I have been told by the Spirit to share my testimony. I have not shared everything, because I do hold sacred those experiences. I can appreciate the Spirit cautioning you. But it doesn't mean that the Spirit hasn't told others NOT to testify of their experiences. I have no problem or take issue with what the Spirit has told you. Please don't make assumptions about what the Spirit has told me. Feel free to accept or reject whatever I share. I love you, brother, but again, please don't presume to tell me that I should keep quiet.

There is a vast difference in sharing testimony of the Savior and belief in the gospel and trying to convince others that there are more than one probation. Even a child, having read the scriptures can detect that there is nothing in there even suggesting that idea. Secondly, I wasn't addressing you directly. Sorry if you took offense.
I still attest that there are people trying to exalt themselves. I have my testimony, but that doesn't make me any where close to exaltation without further adherence to gospel ordinances and scriptural teachings. The scriptures tell us to have faith, hope and charity or we are not fit for the kingdom of heaven. We are also supposed to be lowly in heart, and humble. These things may take a lifetime to get right. But, at least I can admit I fall short in many areas, instead of thinking I have it made. Isn't that extremely presumptuous? If someone has actually been told them their C&E is made sure, it's really none on my business. It surely won't help me gain mine. I say "more power to them, but I'm still working at it, thank you." I have to do things on my own. In fact, some people may become distraught in hearing something like that. Some Mormons have to be spoon fed in order to get through each day, yet they have hope for a better world, which hope becomes an anchor to their soul helping them to remain steadfast and immovable until their great day comes when the Lord says "enter ye therein, ye blessed."

[keep the faith]

Getting back to the subject of Denver Coachmarc I would like to further dialogue with you on Denvers latest blog. You stated before that you saw nothing offensive or critical in his statements made of the church in this blog. I want you to look at his words again. Can you honestly say that Denver is not attacking the church or finding fault with the Brethren in making these statements? Read them carefully and tell me with your discerning skills that he is not taking shots at the church leadership both past and present and has become critical and condescending in nature. I do respect your opinion here because you do not seem to have this need to be openly critical of the Brethren as I see so many others here have become. Do you really feel he has not crossed the line into open contempt for the church and do you still see nothing wrong with his statements associating temples with priestcraft and the like? Really?

From the moment Brigham Young began to envision the church as a platform to support his kingly ambitions until today, the church has been a temptation to practice priestcraft.

The church can dismiss any thought I have that ambition. I don't.

When religion is reduced to a market and business interests drive programs, I find it repugnant. The idea that you identify under served areas and build temples to drive larger temple recommend participation to produce a cash stream may excite business leaders, but it repels me. That the church now recaptures the cost of building a new temple in two to three years after building one is little more than priestcraft. The Jews used their temple as a place of commerce. The Latter-day Saints have turned the temples themselves into merchandise. That is NOT my ambition. It causes me to mourn, not to become excited that I might join in the feeding frenzy upon the sheep.

I am just not like you. Not at all. I will not become like you. You keep the Mormon religion as your product line and never give another thought to me trying to "poach" your paying members. I WILL NOT lead another church. Ever. Period."

[Chicagoelder]

No matter which denomination or organized institution of religion an individual attends, if they have repented and come to the Lord, they are the Lord's church.

Where in the world did you get that? I respectfully disagree! The Lord's Church is The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints. Every other Christian sect out there is apart of Apostate Christianity. So those individuals who stay in Apostate Christianity may get salvation but they will not get exaltation unless they convert. Why because The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints has the authority and life saving ordinances of the Gospel no other Church does.

[jo1952]

You don't really want to start a conversation on people who exalt themselves, do you? The entire General Conference extravaganza is an exercise in exalting men -- they sit in the high seats in the large and spacious building, they have their own separate entrance and exit doors, the entire congregation stands until they file out of the room (in order of seniority, of course) and on and on and on. Yes, I believe scripture. I would fear for my salvation if I were exalted by men.
From what I have read, Frank is a humble man living in an out-of-the-way place, with no earthly honors of men to his name. He glories in God, not himself.

Really Lizzy60? Do you know why they have their own entrance/exit? Good golly could it be that way for security reasons? The Brethren follow each other in seniority as a show of respect for those who have served longer and the crowd stands as a sign of respect for the Offices these men hold. Heaven forbid we should have or show reverence for the Prophets and Apostles.

I understand your point. I get caught up in the emotional desire to provide physical protection. However, I also know from reading scripture that prophets and apostles did not use temporal means to protect themselves. We may see logical and natural-man reasons for using physical security; but this is NOT the way things were done in scripture. The protecting of His servants was provided by God until He called them, and they were allowed to be killed; thus sealing their testimonies with their own blood. These events even provide a certain amount of affirmation to us that they WERE God's servants. In fact, wherever the method of death can be verified, the ancient apostles were killed off---and did not die of natural causes. Using "security" methods, rather than depending upon God's methods of using supernatural powers to protect, is a method used by Babylon. Just an observation.

[Stand & Be Counted]

this principle is used to describe certain other behaviors. One such is that those who have been deceived will speak out against the brethren of the church, the apostles and the prophets and I am convinced that it is so much a part of those who are on, not necessarily committed to or fully ripe, but on the road to apostasy that they cannot help themselves. They are bound to criticize and undermine because they cannot fully conceal this nature in their beings. Those on this path have no choice but to act in this manner. So in spite of the wonderful and sometimes insightful observations that some may make they are revealed by a behavior that will always be so dependable a hallmark that they cannot avoid the behavior.

brlenox,
I think it is important to point out that criticism of the church, or anyone/anything for that matter, does not always stem from deception in one's revelation/promptings (the source). It may be true that one receiving revelation from the wrong source may also criticize things pertaining to God, but it is also true that those receiving revelation from God may also be tempted to criticize.

D&C 20:33-34

33: Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation;
34: Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also.