LDS Freedom Forum

Frederick wrote:

InfoWarrior82 wrote:

Frederick wrote:IW82,

It seems like we were discussing the Godhead. A few people made some great comments to which you have yet to respond. Have you taken the time to read through the thread I linked?

I've read it and I disagree with it. I've actually posted earlier what I think about this:

Infowarrior82 wrote:Personally, I believe that the Holy Ghost is a calling. Held by spirit persons who reside with the Father. They are our "guardian angels". They are "of the mind of the Father" meaning that that they are "of one mind". Just like the Father and the Son are "of one mind". They "return and report". Wow.. as I was saying that.. it just occurred to me that's probably what was meant in the LOF.

I'll expound a bit more. We know that satan has his minions hanging around us all day long whispering sweet nothings into our (spiritual) ears. The same thing is true on the other side of the coin. Heavenly Father has his 2/3 righteous spirit children hanging around us and enticing us to choose the right, prompting us... even times yelling at us with warnings. There is a literal battle raging for our souls in the unseeable spirit world. The Holy Spirit, and the Holy Ghost are one and the same. When we are baptized with fire and receive the Holy Ghost, we have spirit guardian angels commissioned to us throughout our lives so long as we are not behaving in a manner that invites them to leave.

So you're saying Joseph Smith was wrong when he wrote the fifth Lecture. You're also saying you think you have a better idea than he did on the nature of the Godhead.

InfoWarrior82 wrote:Re-read what I said. I said that what I just explained was what was meant in LOF. The Spirit is the mind of God. Meant just the same as The Father and the Son are one. And are of one mind, or are like-minded in all things. This is me explaining to you the same way you would explain to a Methodist this conundrum of words. This is the only way we can reconcile D&C 130.

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. -Jesus Christ

God the Father cannot be both a resurrected body of flesh and bone with a spirit within never to be separated again AND a incorporeal spirit without a body.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma, Chapter 12)

Frederick wrote: You are rejecting what Joseph wrote and presume to know more than he did.

InfoWarrior82 wrote:

Frederick wrote: You are rejecting what Joseph wrote and presume to know more than he did.

I am not rejecting anything he wrote. I'm just saying you are incorrect in your interpretation of what he said. See my above post. You have yet to respond to it.

Frederick wrote:Both D&C 130, and Lecture Five are true and complete in their teachings. If you feel they contradict one another, then you need to pray for more understanding.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John, Chapter 8)

ATL Wake wrote:I think there is more unbelief than there is apostasy. imo

Frederick wrote:

InfoWarrior82 wrote:

Frederick wrote: You are rejecting what Joseph wrote and presume to know more than he did.

I am not rejecting anything he wrote. I'm just saying you are incorrect in your interpretation of what he said. See my above post. You have yet to respond to it.

You do not read carefully enough.

Frederick wrote:Both D&C 130, and Lecture Five are true and complete in their teachings. If you feel they contradict one another, then you need to pray for more understanding.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John, Chapter 8)

Daryl wrote:

ATL Wake wrote:I think there is more unbelief than there is apostasy. imo

Unbelief can be a form of apostasy. Anything that leads us away from our approach to God is apostasy - at least the apostasy that counts.
Institutions have definitions of apostasy - anything that is not in line with the institution is apostasy.

Apostate

See this page in the original 1992 publication.

Author: Scharffs, Gilbert W.

Members of the Church vary in their levels of participation or belief (see Activity in the Church). Latter-day Saints who have seriously contravened or ignored cardinal Church teachings (publicly or privately) are considered apostates, whether or not they have officially left the Church or affiliated with another religion. By not participating in Church meetings one is not considered apostate. However, when individuals ask to have their names removed from Church records, policy requires such requests to be honored. A Church disciplinary procedure may be held for any member who violates important commandments and "will not repent" (Mosiah 26:32; D&C 42:28). Open repudiation of the Church, its leaders, and teachings is one ground for excommunication.

The steps to apostasy are usually gradual. All members are counseled to guard against all manifestations of personal apostasy (DS 3:293-312; Asay, pp. 67-68). The most frequent causes of apostasy are failure to maintain strict standards of morality, taking personal offense (real or perceived), marrying someone who is of another faith or who is irreligious, neglecting to pray and maintain spirituality, or misunderstanding of the teachings of the Church.

Apostasy may be accelerated by a faulty assumption that scripture or Church leaders are infallible. Joseph Smith taught that "a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such" (HC 5:265). He also declared he "was but a man, and [people] must not expect me to be perfect" (HC 5:181). Neither the Church nor its leaders and members claim infallibility.

Above all, the Church affirms that its members should seek personal revelation to know the truth and live in tune with the spirit of God. Those who have not done this may drop by the wayside when their faith is challenged or when difficulties arise.

Apostates sometimes become enemies of the Church. Leaving the Church, which claims to be God's official church, containing the fulness of the gospel, often results in feelings of guilt. While many return, others develop a need to defend their actions, "disprove" the Church, or become hostile enemies. The fruits of apostasy are generally bitter. The Book of Mormon warns of unfavorable conditions that result from transgression contrary to "light and knowledge" (Alma 9:23).

LDS scriptures establish a loving and hopeful attitude toward apostates. Latter-day Saints are strongly counseled to love those who have left the faith, and to encourage, plead, and work with those who have strayed, inviting "the lost sheep" back to the fold (Luke 15:3-7). Of the wayward, the resurrected Savior taught, "Ye shall not cast him out of your…places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them" (3 Ne. 18:32). The desire to return is motivated by the reality of repentance enabled by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. "He who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins-behold, he will confess them and forsake them" (D&C 58:42-43). [See also Anti-Mormon Publications; Schismatic Groups.]

keep the faith wrote:"The fruits of apostasy are generally bitter."

True dat. One who is on the road to apostasy relishes in accusatory and demeaning tones aimed at the church and its leadership. They can't help themselves in doing so. The spirit of the accuser seizes upon their hearts and they look for opportunities to rip on and tear down the organization any way they can. Biting satire, mockery, ridicule, and scorn aimed at the church and its leaders become their best friends. Bitter indeed.

Frederick wrote:

keep the faith wrote:"The fruits of apostasy are generally bitter."

True dat. One who is on the road to apostasy relishes in accusatory and demeaning tones aimed at the church and its leadership. They can't help themselves in doing so. The spirit of the accuser seizes upon their hearts and they look for opportunities to rip on and tear down the organization any way they can. Biting satire, mockery, ridicule, and scorn aimed at the church and its leaders become their best friends. Bitter indeed.

Does the removal of the Lectures constitute any sort of apostasy? It is clear that from the reasons that were out forward that the committee believed the Lectures to be incomplete on their teachings of the Godhead. Yet Jospeh never made such a proclamation. So, did the removal of the "doctrine" portion of our scripture scripture constitute apostasy?

keep the faith wrote:"The fruits of apostasy are generally bitter."

True dat. One who is on the road to apostasy relishes in accusatory and demeaning tones aimed at the church and its leadership. They can't help themselves in doing so. The spirit of the accuser seizes upon their hearts and they look for opportunities to rip on and tear down the organization any way they can. Biting satire, mockery, ridicule, and scorn aimed at the church and its leaders become their best friends. Bitter indeed.

BrentL wrote: lets be frank Frederick, yes. following the removal of the "doctrine" there was a huge vaccume created, this led to many books being written to try to fill that void.