LDS Freedom Forum

Preface to this thread:
Stating facts or belief about history and scripture is not criticism of the church. My purpose is simply to repent and leave Babylon behind. “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may.” (Joseph Smith - 9 July 1843 (Sunday Morning), The Words of Joseph Smith)

There are several controversial topics relative to Mormon doctrine that seem to keep coming up on LDSFF. The discussion is ranging all over on the forum. I’ve started threads on some of these to centralize discussion if anyone desires to participate. Obviously my threads start with my bias which I believe to be true. I have no credentials other than that I am acutely aware of what we teach as a culture and I have been awakened by God to consider alternative perspective.

Here are the divisive topics if you feel inclined to comment on any of it. (I didn’t start all of these.)

The Transfigured Doctrine of Christ – 2 Nephi 31-32 (Mormon 8:33)
The Condemned Church D&C 84
The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
The Plainness of Isaiah

Priesthood Keys - Frederick
The Gentiles – ChicagoElder

The Plainness of Isaiah
Isaiah is easy if you are willing to hear what he has to say. Here are the keys to understanding Isaiah.

1. Liken his words unto yourself. (1 Nephi 19:23, 2 Nephi 6:5 etc.)

2. Understand the chiasm or the chiastic manner of prophecy. Jesus gave us this key when he recommended Isaiah’s words. “Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah... all things that he spake have been and shall be.” 3 Nephi 23:1-3

• Examples of chiasm:
  A-B-A, ABCBA etc.
  1+2+3 = 6 = 3+2+1
  Alma 36
  The first shall be last and the last shall be first.
  Great flood (baptism by water) – Christ comes in the meridian of time – Burning of wicked (baptism by fire)

What this means is that the prophecies applied prior to Christ’s mortal ministry and they apply again in the last days. This is why they must be likened to us. Jacob said he spoke of things “which are and which are to come.” (2 Nephi 6:4) He was living prior to Christ at the time of their first fulfillment.

3. Understand the symbolism of the prophecies. The prophets spoke of form and function versus literal names. Trees are people. Forests are cities. Mountains are nations. When animals are mentioned notice whether they are clean or unclean. (i.e. the lamb shall lie down with the lion) House of Jacob indicates the uncovenanted of the Lord’s people. Israel denotes those who have made the covenant. Egypt represents the great superpower; Assyria the destruction. Judah and Jerusalem is not confined to a geographical location. Of the tribes of Israel, Judah and Jerusalem were those who kept the temple ordinances. In our day this describes the LDS. We are the only people of the children of Abraham who have widespread ritualistic temple worship.

Points two and three describe the manner of prophecy of the Jews. (2 Nephi 25:1) The Old Testament prophets from Isaiah forward can be studied in this manner, but Isaiah was specifically recommended by God himself.

Here’s where it becomes problematic. Let’s start in chapter 1 of Isaiah. Verse 1 identifies the subject: Judah, Jerusalem, the ordinance keepers; in modern times the LDS. In the second verse he tells us “they have rebelled against me.” By verses 9-10 Isaiah is comparing them anciently and us in modern times to Sodom and Gomorrah. Verses 11-15 explain that the Lord utterly rejects and hates our vain and ineffective temple worship. Our “hands are full of blood.” Ouch. You see, Isaiah is direct in a symbolic sort of a way. There are numerous examples of our sad state in the last days.

Isaiah 28 is particularly unflattering to us. In verse one he pronounces a woe upon the drunkards of Ephraim. Ephraim is the leadership segment of the Lords people. Who is the chiastic analog in our day? They have become prideful and are drunk. Their glory fades (v1-5). By verse seven he really is calling them out. If the wine is symbolic with what are they drunken? Pride? Power? They err in judgment and vision. He identifies the priest and the prophet in verse seven. Verse eight indicts their teachings. They teach vomit (tables is a reference to tablets). They regurgitate each others vain teachings. To whom will God give revelation (knowledge and doctrine) then? This people obsessed with regurgitated vanity? (v9) Considering that practically everyone gets identified with Ephraim in their patriarchal blessings, this chapter ought to grab our attention… but we are content to say that really no one understands Isaiah. It’s too complicated. Let’s skip it.

If you are interested, www.isaiahexplained.com is a great resource.

Edited for deep water to unequivocally state that Avraham Gileadi, the author of isaiahexplained.com, has not approved of anything I have written above. Although I have met him personally I do not "know" him and he does not "know" me or know I have written this statement nor does he probably care. It would be a travesty NOT to include his work in any mention of the book of Isaiah as a "resource" on the subject. I never implied his endorsement nor did I imply he had written anything close to what my words intend to convey. I just think he is perhaps the best scholarly resource on the subject. I do not think that anyone other than Christ and Isaiah themselves could claim to be the definitive word on this subject. We certainly are in deep water when someone (i.e. deep water) would feel inclined to make such a comment (3rd one down), and I don't fault deep water for doing so. I think it is fair for them to point this out which is why I am making this edit. I am going to post another comment further down about the conservative purge of the 90s and my take on the situation where Bro. Gileadi was ex'd. (He was reinstated after the church "repented" of their decision. [tongue in cheek]) I fully expect to experience repercussions for expressing what I believe the Savior and Isaiah intended for us to learn from his writings. Isaiah was killed over it and so was Jesus.

I have been making a serious study of Isaiah this year and have learned a lot, though I know I'm still barely scratching the surface. Great topic!

The Isaiah resource superdan posted is very good. However I don't like posting such a good persons work with a personal belief attached. I think the man has suffered enough to bring us the knowledge he has. I would hate to think my understandings brought more scrutiny and hardship to him. This has kept many good thinkers in the closet. The author of the book has never stated your beliefs as his beliefs. Whether or not, they are true or false.

This is an excellent topic. Nephi gives us a key to understanding His words as well right from the beginning.

I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore,
I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father,
And having seen many afflictions in the course of my days,
nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord
in all my days,
Yea, having had a great A knowledge of the goodness
and the mysteries of God,
Therefore, I make a B record of my proceedings in my days;
Yea, I make a record in the C language of my father,
which consists of D the learning of the Jews,
and the C language of the Egyptians;
2 And I know that the B record which I make to be true,
And I make it with mine own hand,
And I make it according to my A knowledge.

To understand this record we must have some understanding of "The learning of the Jews."

Nephi and Moroni also gives us another key

Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation

...Isaiah spake many things which were hard for many of my people to understand; for they know not concerning the manner of prophesying among the Jews...
...For I, Nephi, have not taught them many things concerning the manner of the Jews; for their works were works of darkness, and their doings were doings of abominations...
...Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy...
...there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews...
...in the days that the prophecies of Isaiah shall be fulfilled men shall know of a surety, at the times when they shall come to pass. Wherefore, they are of worth unto the children of men, and he that supposeth that they are not, unto them will I speak particularly, and confine the words unto mine own people; for I know that they shall be of great worth unto them in the last days; for in that day shall they understand them; wherefore, for their good have I written them.

I wrote this in another post, but it fits here

The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.

This quote is tossed around all the time in reference to members and HOI. It's interesting to me that few focus on the fact that one must RECEIVE the Holy Ghost in order for this effect to take place. I did not RECEIVE the Holy Ghost until years after my baptism.

Rather than assuming you have the Holy Ghost, ask yourself, or even better ask God, if you have RECEIVED this gift. If you have you will notice a few things.

"No man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations. The Holy Ghost is a revelator." - Joseph Smith

"The Spirit of Revelation is in connection with these blessings. A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus." - Joseph Smith

The scriptures have explained that the "Holy Ghost" which dwells in you - this personage of Spirit - has the following other descriptions, or attributes:
-the Comforter
-the record of heaven
-the truth of all things
-the peacable things of immortal glory
-that which quickeneth all things
-that which knoweth all things
-that which has all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice and judgment. (Moses 6: 61)

Joseph's education did not open his mind. Translating the Book of Mormon did not open his mind. He clarifies in his history the point at which his mind did open up. He writes of it: "so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation. Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of."

So ask God your standing before Him. Don't assume you have the gift. Don't confuse it with The Light of Christ, ie The Spirit of Christ, ie The Holy Spirit. So many assume they have this gift, when they actually do not.

superdan wrote:Preface to this thread:
Stating facts or belief about history and scripture is not criticism of the church. My purpose is simply to repent and leave Babylon behind. “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may.” (Joseph Smith - 9 July 1843 (Sunday Morning), The Words of Joseph Smith)

There are several controversial topics relative to Mormon doctrine that seem to keep coming up on LDSFF. The discussion is ranging all over on the forum. I’ve started threads on some of these to centralize discussion if anyone desires to participate. Obviously my threads start with my bias which I believe to be true. I have no credentials other than that I am acutely aware of what we teach as a culture and I have been awakened by God to consider alternative perspective.

Here are the divisive topics if you feel inclined to comment on any of it. (I didn’t start all of these.)

The Transfigured Doctrine of Christ – 2 Nephi 31-32 (Mormon 8:33)
The Condemned Church D&C 84
The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
The Plainness of Isaiah

Priesthood Keys - Frederick
The Gentiles – ChicagoElder

The Plainness of Isaiah
Isaiah is easy if you are willing to hear what he has to say. Here are the keys to understanding Isaiah.

1. Liken his words unto yourself. (1 Nephi 19:23, 2 Nephi 6:5 etc.)

2. Understand the chiasm or the chiastic manner of prophecy. Jesus gave us this key when he recommended Isaiah’s words. “Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah... all things that he spake have been and shall be.” 3 Nephi 23:1-3

• Examples of chiasm:
  A-B-A, ABCBA etc.
  1+2+3 = 6 = 3+2+1
  Alma 36
  The first shall be last and the last shall be first.
  Great flood (baptism by water) – Christ comes in the meridian of time – Burning of wicked (baptism by fire)

What this means is that the prophecies applied prior to Christ’s mortal ministry and they apply again in the last days. This is why they must be likened to us. Jacob said he spoke of things “which are and which are to come.” (2 Nephi 6:4) He was living prior to Christ at the time of their first fulfillment.

3. Understand the symbolism of the prophecies. The prophets spoke of form and function versus literal names. Trees are people. Forests are cities. Mountains are nations. When animals are mentioned notice whether they are clean or unclean. (i.e. the lamb shall lie down with the lion) House of Jacob indicates the uncovenanted of the Lord’s people. Israel denotes those who have made the covenant. Egypt represents the great superpower; Assyria the destruction. Judah and Jerusalem is not confined to a geographical location. Of the tribes of Israel, Judah and Jerusalem were those who kept the temple ordinances. In our day this describes the LDS. We are the only people of the children of Abraham who have widespread ritualistic temple worship.

Points two and three describe the manner of prophecy of the Jews. (2 Nephi 25:1) The Old Testament prophets from Isaiah forward can be studied in this manner, but Isaiah was specifically recommended by God himself.

Here’s where it becomes problematic. Let’s start in chapter 1 of Isaiah. Verse 1 identifies the subject: Judah, Jerusalem, the ordinance keepers; in modern times the LDS. In the second verse he tells us “they have rebelled against me.” By verses 9-10 Isaiah is comparing them anciently and us in modern times to Sodom and Gomorrah. Verses 11-15 explain that the Lord utterly rejects and hates our vain and ineffective temple worship. Our “hands are full of blood.” Ouch. You see, Isaiah is direct in a symbolic sort of a way. There are numerous examples of our sad state in the last days.

Isaiah 28 is particularly unflattering to us. In verse one he pronounces a woe upon the drunkards of Ephraim. Ephraim is the leadership segment of the Lords people. Who is the chiastic analog in our day? They have become prideful and are drunk. Their glory fades (v1-5). By verse seven he really is calling them out. If the wine is symbolic with what are they drunken? Pride? Power? They err in judgment and vision. He identifies the priest and the prophet in verse seven. Verse eight indicts their teachings. They teach vomit (tables is a reference to tablets). They regurgitate each others vain teachings. To whom will God give revelation (knowledge and doctrine) then? This people obsessed with regurgitated vanity? (v9) Considering that practically everyone gets identified with Ephraim in their patriarchal blessings, this chapter ought to grab our attention… but we are content to say that really no one understands Isaiah. It’s too complicated. Let’s skip it.

If you are interested, www.isaiahexplained.com is a great resource.

You have already shown your bias in your explanation of Isaiah 28 superdan. You have assigned the identity of the drunkards of Ephraim as the leadership of the latter day LDS church. This is your inference here and it is not even consistent with Bro Gileadi's explanation he gives in one of his excellent books The Book Of Isaiah. He links Ephraim with Egypt together in the geopolitical realm. These entities are linked together as a latter day political power which has become corrupt and prideful and drunken through their past glories and once powerful might. Because of this pride exhibited by these Ephraimites/Egyptian leaders and peoples they lose the Lords protecting hand and are fishbait for the mighty and strong one which turns out to be the great Assyrian armies that The Lord commissions to punish them and strike them with percession and overwheming might. (see Isaiah 10,19,20 etc.)They are trodden under foot of this Assyrian enemy. This is also applied from a spiritual realm as well. All who remain in Babylon are destroyed. However a remnant or residue of the Lords people of Ephraim are crowned with glory and preserved by His power. (see D&C 133)

Those past and present who feel the LDS church has gone astray and has lost the Lords spirit always assign the meaning of these verses as you have done. This is their way of indicting the church and its Leaders as apostate and out of the way. Just research the beginnings of the TLC church. They used Isaiah extensively to put forward the case that the LDS church was being led away from the pure gospel resored through the Prophet Joseph by Leaders today who had become corrupted and Babylonian in nature and were no longer worthy vessels in the Lords hand. Many offshoots of the LDS church have done likewise. This is a common ploy to convince people that the church is no longer accepted by The Lord. Don't fall for it. It is pure sophistry with the intent of leading one away from the safety of the church and the ordinances contained therein.

Keep the faith; How do you explain over 50% of the Church population you mentioned, being in the care of doctors? I would think that percentage would hold true whether or not they are Temple recommend holders or not.

deep water wrote:The Isaiah resource superdan posted is very good. However I don't like posting such a good persons work with a personal belief attached. I think the man has suffered enough to bring us the knowledge he has. I would hate to think my understandings brought more scrutiny and hardship to him. This has kept many good thinkers in the closet. The author of the book has never stated your beliefs as his beliefs. Whether or not, they are true or false.

Thanks deep water for your concern. I have edited my opening post to reflect the FACT that Avraham Gileadi HAS NOT SEEN OR ENDORSED anything I have ever said or written. In my opinion, he is an upstanding fellow who has been through all kinds of hell for his good works. It is a "double shame" what he has been through. It was persecution of a true follower of Christ. What I write here is my opinion and if he felt so inclined I wouldn't fault Bro. Gileadi for publicly refuting everything I say.

Recently Bro. Gileadi was kind enough to attend a study group I and a few other Freedom Forum members hosted on the subject of Isaiah and teach us about it from his perspective. I was able to hear from his own mouth some of the details about his excommunication. I am putting this into my own context. Remember he has not endorsed anything I say. I am a NOBODY. It was from him that I learned that there was a purge of conservatives from the church (a bunch of excommunications, hundreds perhaps over a thousand) because they took Ezra Taft Benson's warnings to heart about a secret combination taking over our country and us being under condemnation for not understanding the book of Mormon and started living as they believed. Elder Jepson (a GA) issued a list of 15 signs to watch out for as "signs of apostasy" which included stuff like obsession with years supply of food, membership in the John Birch Society, home school their children, attend the American Study Group, study Isaiah more than usual, obsession with last-days prophecy etc. You know... LDSFF stuff.

You should google this stuff and learn about it and draw your own conclusions. I would think this would be of great interest to freedom forum members as they tend to fit the profile. Of course details on this are sketchy. The church would never admit to such behavior. Besides the details of all disciplinary action is private as people tend to want to put these things away "privily." Suffice it to say that I don't think holding views such as are often held here on the forum (i.e. about Ether 8 and govt, homosexuality, economics etc) is going to bode well for your relationships with the church or the mainstream members in the future. The times are upon us where the events that occur will force you to pick a side. You get to choose Christ or the world. You are free to choose. This isn't about institutions. The time is upon us where you will have to either stand up for what you believe is right or fade away.

In September of 1993 the church excommunicated six "intellectuals." They are known as the September 6. Most of you already know that. The media totally jumped on this because five of them could generally be considered to be liberal. (Quinn says he is gay. The women are "feminists" etc. Not sure about where Toscano stands.) What the media did not bring forth is the fact that hundreds of people were getting ex'd for following President Benson's warnings too literally. Gileadi was not only leading the fight in understanding Isaiah but he was "doing" what he thought was right (i.e. heeding Benson's warnings). From him directly I understood that Elder Packer was responsible for his excommunication and that it was a dark affair where no one would listen to any reason. What I heard was that regardless of the continued reasonable and inspired defense that he mounted, it became clear that their intent was to ex him and he simply gave up because there was no reasoning with them. After appealing and having his case heard and supported by Elder Maxwell in the end, Gileadi was reinstated. They said they made a mistake.

Avraham is very clear who is who.

http://isaiahreport.com/?p=232

11. Isaiah Predicts Endtime Prophets and Seers
by Avraham Gileadi Ph.D.

Isaiah—a prophet and seer who saw to the end of time—predicts that prophets and seers will exist at that time as they did anciently. These fall into two categories. First are those who have gone stray, who err as seers (Isaiah 28:7), prophets who teach falsehoods (Isaiah 9:15), whose eyes God closes because of the wickedness of his people (Isaiah 29:10). These watchmen of God’s people are “blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber. Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds. They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage” (Isaiah 56:10–11).

Second are those who stand on the watchtower day and night, who are “most vigilant” and “fully alert” to approaching dangers, and who report what they see and hear (Isaiah 21:6–10). These watchmen call upon God continually for the welfare of his people and don’t keep silent day or night (Isaiah 62:6). They herald the coming of Jehovah to reign upon the earth just prior to the endtime exodus of God’s people out of Babylon to Zion (Isaiah 52:7–8, 11–12; cf. 48:20–21). They prophesy in the day of power, when Jehovah “bares his holy arm in the eyes of all nations” (Isaiah 52:8, 10). They raise their voices as one at the time Jehovah returns to Zion (Isaiah 52:8).
11. 3. 2010

Keep in mind the last statement, when do they finally raise their voice? What enviorment are they in? And what have the people become?

Who are the prophets seers and revelators and who are the ones who have and who have not gone astray?

superdan wrote:

deep water wrote:The Isaiah resource superdan posted is very good. However I don't like posting such a good persons work with a personal belief attached. I think the man has suffered enough to bring us the knowledge he has. I would hate to think my understandings brought more scrutiny and hardship to him. This has kept many good thinkers in the closet. The author of the book has never stated your beliefs as his beliefs. Whether or not, they are true or false.

Thanks deep water for your concern. I have edited my opening post to reflect the FACT that Avraham Gileadi HAS NOT SEEN OR ENDORSED anything I have ever said or written. In my opinion, he is an upstanding fellow who has been through all kinds of hell for his good works. It is a "double shame" what he has been through. It was persecution of a true follower of Christ. What I write here is my opinion and if he felt so inclined I wouldn't fault Bro. Gileadi for publicly refuting everything I say.

Recently Bro. Gileadi was kind enough to attend a study group I and a few other Freedom Forum members hosted on the subject of Isaiah and teach us about it from his perspective. I was able to hear from his own mouth some of the details about his excommunication. I am putting this into my own context. Remember he has not endorsed anything I say. I am a NOBODY. It was from him that I learned that there was a purge of conservatives from the church (a bunch of excommunications, hundreds perhaps over a thousand) because they took Ezra Taft Benson's warnings to heart about a secret combination taking over our country and us being under condemnation for not understanding the book of Mormon and started living as they believed. Elder Jepson (a GA) issued a list of 15 signs to watch out for as "signs of apostasy" which included stuff like obsession with years supply of food, membership in the John Birch Society, home school their children, attend the American Study Group, study Isaiah more than usual, obsession with last-days prophecy etc. You know... LDSFF stuff.

You should google this stuff and learn about it and draw your own conclusions. I would think this would be of great interest to freedom forum members as they tend to fit the profile. Of course details on this are sketchy. The church would never admit to such behavior. Besides the details of all disciplinary action is private as people tend to want to put these things away "privily." Suffice it to say that I don't think holding views such as are often held here on the forum (i.e. about Ether 8 and govt, homosexuality, economics etc) is going to bode well for your relationships with the church or the mainstream members in the future. The times are upon us where the events that occur will force you to pick a side. You get to choose Christ or the world. You are free to choose. This isn't about institutions. The time is upon us where you will have to either stand up for what you believe is right or fade away.

In September of 1993 the church excommunicated six "intellectuals." They are known as the September 6. Most of you already know that. The media totally jumped on this because five of them could generally be considered to be liberal. (Quinn says he is gay. The women are "feminists" etc. Not sure about where Toscano stands.) What the media did not bring forth is the fact that hundreds of people were getting ex'd for following President Benson's warnings too literally. Gileadi was not only leading the fight in understanding Isaiah but he was "doing" what he thought was right (i.e. heeding Benson's warnings). From him directly I understood that Elder Packer was responsible for his excommunication and that it was a dark affair where no one would listen to any reason. What I heard was that regardless of the continued reasonable and inspired defense that he mounted, it became clear that their intent was to ex him and he simply gave up because there was no reasoning with them. After appealing and having his case heard and supported by Elder Maxwell in the end, Gileadi was reinstated. They said they made a mistake.

Superdan is portraying this situation in the early 90's as a witch hunt that the church embarked upon to persecute innocent people who were following Pres. Bensons advice and becoming proactive in political and spiritual preparedness. This is just not true. I am very aware of what was happening at this period of time with many disenchanted Saints who began to speak out publicly against the church and its leadership in very uncomplimentary ways. Google Jim Harmston and the TLC church. Google Sterling Allen and his blog. There were several members at this time who became wolves in sheeps clothing trying to draw as many as would listen away from the church with their sophistry and half truths and twisting of the scriptures particularly Isaiah to fit their paradigm. Elder Jepson was very involved in dealing with many of these people who later became apostate and left the church to form their own groups or church's. I was acquainted with several of them and they were far from innocent I can tell you that. There was all kinds of shenanigans going on with these folks including immorality and evil speaking of the Lords anointed and it caused great family upheavals and terrible consequences with many leaving the church because of the actions of all these con men who had an axe to grind against the church. They all claimed the role of martyrs because the church was just persecuting them for their beliefs or just telling the truth about the way things were. Baloney. Those who don't learn the lessons of history..

Why not just say liar liar pants on fire?

I've said what I've said knowing full well what you and those with your viewpoint will come out and say and how you will paint me. The world needs to see the contrast and be presented with the alternate point of view. It must be said prior to the coming destruction.

Those of you who are undecided or uninformed, do the research. Take your thoughts and questions to God with real intent. Be willing to believe what he shows and tells you. Consider the alternative ideas. Form your own conclusions. This IS the test. I am not engaging in sophistry (the use of fallacious arguments, esp. with the intention of deceiving.) I say look to Christ and live. Don't believe me. Ask Him.

Regardless of whether an individual thinks or believes that our leaders can or can't lead us astray, let's look at some other things. Let's even place opinions about our leaders completely aside for a moment.

We can't be saved in ignorance; at least this is what Joseph taught us. Do we believe what he taught us here?

There are many things which were revealed to Joseph which we weren't yet ready to hear or able to receive.

We still haven't received them.

As such, we are living in ignorance.

We can't be saved in ignorance.

We don't know what those things were which were revealed to Joseph. As such, we aren't able to believe them.

As such, we are living in unbelief.

We are very proud of the limited truths Joseph DID reveal. We even condemn those who don't believe as we do.

As such, we are puffed up

As I see it, we are in ignorance; and we can't be saved in ignorance. We are dwindling in unbelief because we don't even know everything that we need to believe in. We are puffed up. We sure look an awful lot like what we have been warned about time and time again in scripture. All is not well.

Great subject and thread superdan. I really appreciate Avraham Gileadi and his knowledge about the writings of Isaiah
and for making that information available to study/pray/ponder on.

superdan wrote:Why not just say liar liar pants on fire?

I've said what I've said knowing full well what you and those with your viewpoint will come out and say and how you will paint me. The world needs to see the contrast and be presented with the alternate point of view. It must be said prior to the coming destruction.

Those of you who are undecided or uninformed, do the research. Take your thoughts and questions to God with real intent. Be willing to believe what he shows and tells you. Consider the alternative ideas. Form your own conclusions. This IS the test. I am not engaging in sophistry (the use of fallacious arguments, esp. with the intention of deceiving.) I say look to Christ and live. Don't believe me. Ask Him.

By all means let everyone see the contrast and do the research. Consider the fruits of those who have left the church through excommunication and apostasy. Follow the path of the TLC bunch out of Manti for a good case study. Check out what has come of most of these families and individuals that decided to leave the church for greener pastures. Examine what the spirit they were following was telling them to do and then determine from what source that "inspiration" was coming from. It will send shivers up your spine to see how far a person can go in responding to the wrong spirit. I will quote here from a talk Elder Packer gave back in the 80's because believe me it sure did apply at this difficult period of time in many families lives. Many people would have been spared great pain and remorse had they paid attention to the warnings given by the Brethren. By all means superdan let the light of truth shine on what happens when individuals decide to fight against the living oracles of God. It aint pretty I can tell you that.

"Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by inspiration from an unworthy source. You can be given false spiritual messages. There are counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit angels. (See Moro. 7:17.) Be careful lest you be deceived, for the devil may come disguised as an angel of light..

Avoid those who claim some special calling or revelation. If someone approaches you individually or invites you to very private meetings, claiming to have some special calling, whatever you do, follow Paul's counsel—"from such turn away."

They may claim special revelations and callings. They may claim visions and visitations. But where, pray tell me, can they claim the sustaining vote of the membership? In the revelation on organization and Church government given in 1830, the Lord said: "No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church."8 (85–08, p. 35)

Avoid like a plague those who claim that some great spiritual experience authorizes them to challenge the constituted priesthood authority in the Church. Do not be unsettled if you cannot explain every insinuation of the apostate or every challenge from the enemies who attack the Lord’s church. And we now face a tidal wave of that. In due time you will be able to confound the wicked and inspire the honest in heart."

Keep the faith,

Of course there were people claiming callings and revelations that were contrary to the gospel. But they were not the majority. Most people thrown into that group were good mormons who were wondering why the leadership of the church was operating contrary to the laws set forth by God through Joseph Smith in the Doctrine in Covenants. Their mere questioning does not equal evil speaking of the Lords anointed. It is a fine line when awakening to the fact that Gadianton robbers have infiltrated the church. One will either go the route of the tlc or possibly anti but one can also grow closer to Christ and walk the strait and narrow. Because now you have rely solely on The Lord for daily bread. I thought the same as you until one day I was reading 2 Nephi 26-28 when it all came clear and I realized we are at the point of having the light taken from us and given back to the house of Israel. I would plead with you to open your heart and pray to Heavenly Father to open your eyes instead of throwing up the defenses implanted by the corporate church.

keep the faith wrote:

superdan wrote:Why not just say liar liar pants on fire?

I've said what I've said knowing full well what you and those with your viewpoint will come out and say and how you will paint me. The world needs to see the contrast and be presented with the alternate point of view. It must be said prior to the coming destruction.

Those of you who are undecided or uninformed, do the research. Take your thoughts and questions to God with real intent. Be willing to believe what he shows and tells you. Consider the alternative ideas. Form your own conclusions. This IS the test. I am not engaging in sophistry (the use of fallacious arguments, esp. with the intention of deceiving.) I say look to Christ and live. Don't believe me. Ask Him.

By all means let everyone see the contrast and do the research. Consider the fruits of those who have left the church through excommunication and apostasy. Follow the path of the TLC bunch out of Manti for a good case study. Check out what has come of most of these families and individuals that decided to leave the church for greener pastures. Examine what the spirit they were following was telling them to do and then determine from what source that "inspiration" was coming from. It will send shivers up your spine to see how far a person can go in responding to the wrong spirit. I will quote here from a talk Elder Packer gave back in the 80's because believe me it sure did apply at this difficult period of time in many families lives. Many people would have been spared great pain and remorse had they paid attention to the warnings given by the Brethren. By all means superdan let the light of truth shine on what happens when individuals decide to fight against the living oracles of God. It aint pretty I can tell you that.

"Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by inspiration from an unworthy source. You can be given false spiritual messages. There are counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit angels. (See Moro. 7:17.) Be careful lest you be deceived, for the devil may come disguised as an angel of light..

Avoid those who claim some special calling or revelation. If someone approaches you individually or invites you to very private meetings, claiming to have some special calling, whatever you do, follow Paul's counsel—"from such turn away."

They may claim special revelations and callings. They may claim visions and visitations. But where, pray tell me, can they claim the sustaining vote of the membership? In the revelation on organization and Church government given in 1830, the Lord said: "No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church."8 (85–08, p. 35)

Avoid like a plague those who claim that some great spiritual experience authorizes them to challenge the constituted priesthood authority in the Church. Do not be unsettled if you cannot explain every insinuation of the apostate or every challenge from the enemies who attack the Lord’s church. And we now face a tidal wave of that. In due time you will be able to confound the wicked and inspire the honest in heart."

Is Superdan asking anyone to follow him? Has anyone asked to be followed, on this forum?

Thanks everyone for commenting. I would love to see this discussion turn back towards whatever interpretations you have on Isaiah subjects that you feel inclined to share.

I respect Avraham Gileadi and had to say what I said because I don't wish to sully him at all. He was (IN MY OPINION) "persecuted by those who ought to have been [his] friends and to have treated [him] kindly, and if they supposed [him] to be deluded to have endeavored in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed [him]." JSH 28 (i.e. D&C 121:41-42) He is a living, breathing, verifiable example of the problems I noted; which comment was initiated by deep water's genuine and reasonable concern. The stuff on the conservative purge of the 90s is interesting... so I respectfully request that you take it somewhere else. Of course I know I started that line of discussion. It's my thread.

My comment...

me wrote:I've said what I've said knowing full well what you and those with your viewpoint will come out and say and how you will paint me. The world needs to see the contrast and be presented with the alternate point of view. It must be said prior to the coming destruction.

Those of you who are undecided or uninformed, do the research. Take your thoughts and questions to God with real intent. Be willing to believe what he shows and tells you. Consider the alternative ideas. Form your own conclusions. This IS the test. I am not engaging in sophistry (the use of fallacious arguments, esp. with the intention of deceiving.) I say look to Christ and live. Don't believe me. Ask Him.

... was relative to understanding Isaiah and the doctrine of Christ and other controversial topics that I recently posted.

Start another thread on the purge or the apostates... or how I'm leading people astray or whatever and ... please and let's talk Isaiah on this one?

Of course hopefully everyone will feel free to speak their true mind regardless of the chilling effect that Gileadi's excommunication may have on this whole subject. ;-)

Here's in my opinion where we are at.


Isaiah 29:
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

Then skipping to:

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

Members are scared to question even what is in plain sight contrary to the gospel of Christ merely because their leaders will claim they are apostate.

CWilson wrote:Keep the faith,

Of course there were people claiming callings and revelations that were contrary to the gospel. But they were not the majority. Most people thrown into that group were good mormons who were wondering why the leadership of the church was operating contrary to the laws set forth by God through Joseph Smith in the Doctrine in Covenants. Their mere questioning does not equal evil speaking of the Lords anointed. It is a fine line when awakening to the fact that Gadianton robbers have infiltrated the church. One will either go the route of the tlc or possibly anti but one can also grow closer to Christ and walk the strait and narrow. Because now you have rely solely on The Lord for daily bread. I thought the same as you until one day I was reading 2 Nephi 26-28 when it all came clear and I realized we are at the point of having the light taken from us and given back to the house of Israel. I would plead with you to open your heart and pray to Heavenly Father to open your eyes instead of throwing up the defenses implanted by the corporate church.

I will comment on your post CWilson and then move along so as not to derail this Isaiah discussion. You obviously sound sympathetic to the groups of people who separated themselves from the church or were excommunicated because of the events of that time. I had family and friends who left the church and embarked upon that journey so I am very familiar with what went on then. People were receiving revelations to leave their families and participate in an assortment of immoral and unprincipled activities. Spiritual marriages to other peoples spouses was just one of many of the activities of these "good mormons". Please don't lecture me on opening my heart to apostate activities designed to draw people away from the restored church and those sustained Priesthood authorities of the Lords church and kingdom that you derogatorily refer to as the corporate church. You think you have all the answers now but until you see firsthand what false spirits and charlatans can do in ruining lives of people you care about you might not know as much as you think you do.

CWilson wrote:...because now you have rely solely on The Lord for daily bread. I thought the same as you until one day I was reading 2 Nephi 26-28 when it all came clear and I realized we are at the point of having the light taken from us and given back to the house of Israel. I would plead with you to open your heart and pray to Heavenly Father to open your eyes...

KTF wrote:Please don't lecture me on opening my heart to apostate activities

KTF ... come on. Leave the straw-man out of this. CWilson is asking you to look at Isaiah just like I did. (And 2 Nephi 26-28 which is Nephi's interpretation of it) Set me straight CWilson if I'm mischaracterizing your intent. People in and out and on the fringe of the church have their lives ruined for various reasons. Satan is abroad in the land. Here's the biggie. A couple of months ago in Stake Priesthood leadership meeting the High Councilor speaking said they estimated 80% of the AP and MP had a porn problem. It was a jaw dropping statement considering that half of the MP generally are in leadership and that meant approx half the room I was sitting in at that moment (at a minimum) had a porn issue. I mean come on. Apostate fringe immorality activity accounts for what, less than 0.1% of any issues and is pretty much rare and unheard of but sensational enough to draw tons of attention right? Meanwhile at this very hour if I take my Stake Pres seriously I can look out across the neighborhood in the dark night and imagine 8 of my 9 neighbors looking at porn because I am certainly not doing it at this very second. That includes 2 members of the EQ pres, a member of the bishopric, the HP group leader and a ward clerk among others at least... just in the most adjacent 9 houses. We're talking statistically speaking... I make no accusations here. It's epidemic at all levels.

Ok back to the Isaiah analog:

Isaiah 2 - 2 Nephi 12 wrote: 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. (Us the ordinance keepers ... modern chiastic parallel)

Begin executive summary of the next several chapters.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
End executive summary

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord. (Jacob name implies we lack real covenant.)

6 ¶Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. (I think this sounds a lot like a porn problem but it's just my opinion.)

7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots: (Reference Revelation 3:17-22 ... this obviously is us.)

8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made: (yep us)

9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not. ... etc etc etc.

Thank you superdan for making the distinction between your knowledge and what Bro Gileadi has taught. Fyi; I was in a study group of about 20 members when that scourge took place, depending on which night you took role. All most all were xed or ask to have their membership taken off the roles. I lived through those times upfront and personal. I, because of the fear of man stepped back from my path, and it cost me 10 to 12 years of time to gain knowledge. I was left with my testimony as; After a lot of study,I know just enough to know that I don't know anything. And it took a lot of years of hard work and study to get here.

Isaiah wrote a book that is to be taken as if written to me personally. We are to liken his message to our self, for profit and gain. All here on earth can find their state of righteousness displayed in the pages of that book. From the sinner to those who have taken on Christ (literally) as their guide. One of my personal favorites that Dr Gileadi doesn't point out is in ch 1 v 6. This verse talks of one type of person. But for those who have eyes it infers a second also. "From the soles of the foot even to the head there is no soundness in it".-- This is in reference to the baptism of water. How do you enter the water when baptized? This Baptized person, is still an unrighteous person. This is in contrast to many a baptism talk I have attended, where they claim that they will become a clean vessel under this ordinance. Isaiah goes on to describe the newly baptized person with words like this. They have wounds, bruises and putrefying sores. Their wounds are open for all to see as they have not been cleansed or bound up. Of course only those with eyes to see will know of their uncleanness.
This is in opposition to the second baptism The one given by Christ. If you receive the water baptism from the feet to the top of your head, the second baptism starts from the top of your head through the bottom of your feet. And it is just as real as the first.

deep water wrote:Isaiah wrote a book that is to be taken as if written to me personally. We are to liken his message to our self, for profit and gain. All here on earth can find their state of righteousness displayed in the pages of that book. From the sinner to those who have taken on Christ (literally) as their guide. One of my personal favorites that Dr Gileadi doesn't point out is in ch 1 v 6. This verse talks of one type of person. But for those who have eyes it infers a second also. "From the soles of the foot even to the head there is no soundness in it".-- This is in reference to the baptism of water. How do you enter the water when baptized? This Baptized person, is still an unrighteous person. This is in contrast to many a baptism talk I have attended, where they claim that they will become a clean vessel under this ordinance. Isaiah goes on to describe the newly baptized person with words like this. They have wounds, bruises and putrefying sores. Their wounds are open for all to see as they have not been cleansed or bound up. Of course only those with eyes to see will know of their uncleanness.
This is in opposition to the second baptism The one given by Christ. As you receive the water baptism from the feet to the top of your head, the second baptism starts from the top of your head through the bottom of your feet. And it is just as real as the first.

Absolutely beautiful, deep water. Thank you!!!

deep water wrote:Thank you superdan for making the distinction between your knowledge and what Bro Gileadi has taught. Fyi; I was in a study group of about 20 members when that scourge took place, depending on which night you took role. All most all were xed or ask to have their membership taken off the roles. I lived through those times upfront and personal. I, because of the fear of man stepped back from my path, and it cost me 10 to 12 years of time to gain knowledge. I was left with my testimony as; After a lot of study,I know just enough to know that I don't know anything. And it took a lot of years of hard work and study to get here.

Thank you deep water. You make my main point here. People ignored the counsel of their Priesthood leaders and continued in these study groups where one by one most were taken away into forbidden paths and ended up outside of the safety of the church and the temple. That is why the Brethren were so concerned about these kinds of study groups. The philosophies of men were mingled with scripture and false spirits played havoc on many peoples lives as they began doing and teaching things that were contrary to the teachings of the restored gospel. Many become openly contemptuous of the church and its Prophet leaders and led away any who would listen to their crusade against the church. What were their fruits? What are the fruits of any of the offshoot groups that have left the church and started their own organizations over the last few hundred years since the days of Joseph. My observation in witnessing this is that the fruits are rotten and decay over time. They do not thrive or continue to manifest righteous fruits.

I am bewildered when you say that the fear of men took you off the path of knowledge. Surely you can see the dangers that were involved in doing what so many of your fellow study groupies did in ignoring the counsel of their Priesthood leaders and that the concerns of their Priesthood leaders were justified. Can't you? One can still continue on the path of greater light and knowledge without joining groups that love to talk trash about the church and the Brethren and brag about the fact that they are the enlightened ones who now know more than do the rest of the church and its leadership and are going to start teaching others of their new found knowledge regardless of the consequences involved. I have yet to see any group or individuals that start talking trash about their Priesthood leaders and downing the church where pride has not entered in and seized control of their processes. From the days of Joseph until now that has manifest itself time and again.

keep the faith wrote:

deep water wrote:Thank you superdan for making the distinction between your knowledge and what Bro Gileadi has taught. Fyi; I was in a study group of about 20 members when that scourge took place, depending on which night you took role. All most all were xed or ask to have their membership taken off the roles. I lived through those times upfront and personal. I, because of the fear of man stepped back from my path, and it cost me 10 to 12 years of time to gain knowledge. I was left with my testimony as; After a lot of study,I know just enough to know that I don't know anything. And it took a lot of years of hard work and study to get here.

Thank you deep water. You make my main point here. People ignored the counsel of their Priesthood leaders and continued in these study groups where one by one most were taken away into forbidden paths and ended up outside of the safety of the church and the temple. That is why the Brethren were so concerned about these kinds of study groups. The philosophies of men were mingled with scripture and false spirits played havoc on many peoples lives as they began doing and teaching things that were contrary to the teachings of the restored gospel. Many become openly contemptuous of the church and its Prophet leaders and led away any who would listen to their crusade against the church. What were their fruits? What are the fruits of any of the offshoot groups that have left the church and started their own organizations over the last few hundred years since the days of Joseph. My observation in witnessing this is that the fruits are rotten and decay over time. They do not thrive or continue to manifest righteous fruits.

I am bewildered when you say that the fear of men took you off the path of knowledge. Surely you can see the dangers that were involved in doing what so many of your fellow study groupies did in ignoring the counsel of their Priesthood leaders and that the concerns of their Priesthood leaders were justified. Can't you? One can still continue on the path of greater light and knowledge without joining groups that love to talk trash about the church and the Brethren and brag about the fact that they are the enlightened ones who now know more than do the rest of the church and its leadership and are going to start teaching others of their new found knowledge regardless of the consequences involved. I have yet to see any group or individuals that start talking trash about their Priesthood leaders and downing the church where pride has not entered in and seized control of their processes. From the days of Joseph until now that has manifest itself time and again.

Yes there have been many splinter groups, and it appears some here have had association with them to some degree. I've noticed in my life that I create stumbling blocks for myself. People also create them for me. Experiences will often do this. It hinders our progression in our journey home. It creates false beliefs and feelings that can hinder us. It takes time to heal. Time to repent of the unbelief that results.

However. Zion will come. It will happen even if you or I decide to take part. It will happen even if the church, leaders, and members are involved or not. It is coming. We must wait on the Lord. Those who splinter and try to partake of fruit out of season (like adam and eve) will not progress in their journey. The time will come. It will happen. I'm going to be ready. Even if our church and members focus on babylon, build magnificent buildings, wear fine clothing, and grind on the face of the poor. I will pray for my brothers and sisters, and those who I sustain to lead the bride. If I fall short and fail, I cannot excuse my failings on them. If they fall short and fail, I will not let that be my excuse to the Lord. Salvation is personal. I'm not going to wait for someone to give a talk, or give a calling, or tell me what to do. I'm going to the source. I cannot tell you the benefit this has been. My unbelief is being replaced with belief. The wisdom of wise men is perishing. The Gift of the Holy Ghost has been a revelation. A continuous one. Lesson manuals, study guides, and doctrinal commentaries seem are futile. They stunt growth. These words were given by the Holy Ghost, and this is how they should be received. It seems so plain. Don't let your previous experiences prevent you from connecting personally with God.

clarkkent14 wrote:

keep the faith wrote:

deep water wrote:Thank you superdan for making the distinction between your knowledge and what Bro Gileadi has taught. Fyi; I was in a study group of about 20 members when that scourge took place, depending on which night you took role. All most all were xed or ask to have their membership taken off the roles. I lived through those times upfront and personal. I, because of the fear of man stepped back from my path, and it cost me 10 to 12 years of time to gain knowledge. I was left with my testimony as; After a lot of study,I know just enough to know that I don't know anything. And it took a lot of years of hard work and study to get here.

Thank you deep water. You make my main point here. People ignored the counsel of their Priesthood leaders and continued in these study groups where one by one most were taken away into forbidden paths and ended up outside of the safety of the church and the temple. That is why the Brethren were so concerned about these kinds of study groups. The philosophies of men were mingled with scripture and false spirits played havoc on many peoples lives as they began doing and teaching things that were contrary to the teachings of the restored gospel. Many become openly contemptuous of the church and its Prophet leaders and led away any who would listen to their crusade against the church. What were their fruits? What are the fruits of any of the offshoot groups that have left the church and started their own organizations over the last few hundred years since the days of Joseph. My observation in witnessing this is that the fruits are rotten and decay over time. They do not thrive or continue to manifest righteous fruits.

I am bewildered when you say that the fear of men took you off the path of knowledge. Surely you can see the dangers that were involved in doing what so many of your fellow study groupies did in ignoring the counsel of their Priesthood leaders and that the concerns of their Priesthood leaders were justified. Can't you? One can still continue on the path of greater light and knowledge without joining groups that love to talk trash about the church and the Brethren and brag about the fact that they are the enlightened ones who now know more than do the rest of the church and its leadership and are going to start teaching others of their new found knowledge regardless of the consequences involved. I have yet to see any group or individuals that start talking trash about their Priesthood leaders and downing the church where pride has not entered in and seized control of their processes. From the days of Joseph until now that has manifest itself time and again.

Yes there have been many splinter groups, and it appears some here have had association with them to some degree. I've noticed in my life that I create stumbling blocks for myself. People also create them for me. Experiences will often do this. It hinders our progression in our journey home. It creates false beliefs and feelings that can hinder us. It takes time to heal. Time to repent of the unbelief that results.

However. Zion will come. It will happen even if you or I decide to take part. It will happen even if the church, leaders, and members are involved or not. It is coming. We must wait on the Lord. Those who splinter and try to partake of fruit out of season (like adam and eve) will not progress in their journey. The time will come. It will happen. I'm going to be ready. Even if our church and members focus on babylon, build magnificent buildings, wear fine clothing, and grind on the face of the poor. I will pray for my brothers and sisters, and those who I sustain to lead the bride. If I fall short and fail, I cannot excuse my failings on them. If they fall short and fail, I will not let that be my excuse to the Lord. Salvation is personal. I'm not going to wait for someone to give a talk, or give a calling, or tell me what to do. I'm going to the source. I cannot tell you the benefit this has been. My unbelief is being replaced with belief. The wisdom of wise men is perishing. The Gift of the Holy Ghost has been a revelation. A continuous one. Lesson manuals, study guides, and doctrinal commentaries seem are futile. They stunt growth. These words were given by the Holy Ghost, and this is how they should be received. It seems so plain. Don't let your previous experiences prevent you from connecting personally with God.

And What caused so many people to join up and organize these many splinter groups clarkkent? My experience teaches me that they ignored the Prophet Josephs many warnings and participated in open criticism and faultfinding and accusations of the Brethren and the church which introduced this poison into their lives. From his words:

“The very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom” (p. 318); “In all your trials, tribulations and sickness, in all your sufferings, even unto death, be careful you don’t betray God, be careful you don’t betray the priesthood” (p. 318); “If there are any uncharitable feelings, any lack of confidence, then pride, arrogance and envy will soon be manifested; confusion must inevitably prevail, and the authorities of the Church set at naught” (p. 319). This seems straightforward.